Street fighting

An older guy came forward today during class. He's an ex spec ops or something and the instructor wanted him to imbue us all with the spirit of homicide. The demonstration went as follows:

First, he selected a burly high school student for his partner. They then traded blows and spin kicks and what-not at semi-full speed. That was to be the "textbook" approach.

Second, he wanted to show us the "street" approach. He roared and tackled the other guy, causing them both to roll into a wall, his shoulder to dislocate and us leaving practice more sheepish than ever.

Lessons learned:

1. Don't lose your XO, it won't help.

2. Wrestling is a vital skill for all styles and cannot be replaced.

3. MAMs will friggin' destroy you. Don't mess with 'em.

XO? MAMs?

But did the older ex specs op guy eat the Banana afterwards?

I agree, those mixed martial arts guys are pretty amazing and I'd hate to be in a fight with one of them, or anyone for that matter. But most street fights aren't just you and some guy. Its you and 5 guys who want your wallet and they're usually armed with something. Training for instances like that is great, but avoiding them at all costs should be the priority #1. And it might be a good idea to have the business card of a good lawyer, cause if you "win" and the police come, you just might be arrested and charged. Again, I'm just going by the incidents I was unfortunate enough to witness here (from a distance thank goodness). By all means always defend yourself, but you'd be surprised how quickly a simple street fight becomes a lawsuit frenzy. Of course it all depends on where you live.

I consider myself pretty lucky that I've never been in a fight, mugged or harassed. That doesn't prevent me from trying to learn from those who have, including some basic MA training (with pretty mediocre results, to be fair).

The one source that has made the most profound impression on me is this one:
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/
Written by Mark "animal" MacYoung, a former gang member and gang leader who not only has been through some pretty rough times, but can write about it from a pretty intelligent perspective. Including the "lawyer frenzy" part.

Some highlights of what made the most impression on me:

- Most of what you considered justifiable self defense in the heat of the moment isn't (partly because your sense of reality is severly distorted when adrealine starts flowing. One consequence of that distortion is that you willingly or unknowingly contributes to the escalation of conflict). Result: Lawyer frenzy.


- There just isn't any way around the fact that your most important layer of defense is avoiding trouble. Situation avareness and the ability to stuff your ego and sweet talk yourself out of the situation is much more likely to save your bacon than any ninja trick. And if you try those options and they don't work, the fact that you truly did your best to avoid the confrontation will help you ward off the lawyer frenzy.


- Marc MacYoungs last resort self defense mantra: It Ends NOW! When you reach that point where there is no choice but to physically defend yourself, the threat should be stopped NOW (with appropriate level of force response). If the threat isn't stopped immediately you're a) doing it wrong, b) it's not self defence but fighting => lawyer frenzy.

Rodion

Your martial arts instructor did a good thing - by bringing in an outside specialist to explain the intensity of real violence. Naturally, we all hope that we never have to protect ourselves in this way. But a real encounter with violent criminals - or people intent on cold blooded murder - is a highly difficult and dangerous encounter.

Several books ... all by authors with excellent qualifications ... have recently tried to highlight why "normal" martial arts training may not provide enough protection in a violent street encounter. The following books all try to get the message across in their own way:

Attack Proof by John Perkins et al.
Meditations On Violence by Sgt. Rory Miller
The Dirty Dozen by Larry Jordan

All of these books are written by people who not only have extensive training with martial arts, but also direct experience with cold-blooded violence through their jobs as policemen, corrections officers, and special forces soldiers. It is worth reading all three books - to get a better understanding of the true difficulties involved.

The essential point is that martial arts students are being misled if they think that their experience inside the training gym is enough to give them superiority in a violent fight. This applies across a wide variety of training styles, including MMA (mixed martial arts). Personally, I don't believe this is a failing of traditional martial arts disciplines. It's just that normal training within the USA (and the West) tends to water down the intensity of the training techniques. How many students would return to class - if they came home with a bloody nose, severe bruises, or a kick to the groin? In the old days, students did receive these kinds of injuries. But because we are now more "civilized" (and constrained by legal implications), this type of training cannot be provided today.

Train for the worst and hope it never comes. The old adage is still the best. The above books will help to get people started. There is NEVER a substitute for actual hands-on training though - a book can never replace a good instructor.

"The best way to get out of trouble - is never to get into it in the first place.".

Pete

P.S. And yes, quite commonly fights can wind up on the ground.

About all I can say is as follows:

1) It will NOT be what you expected
2) If you are in a fair fight, your tactics are unsound
3) Win, Lose, or Draw (unlikely), everyone is going to be sore at least if not truly injured.
4) Many jurisdictions have an offense called Mutual Combat (or words to that effect.) Plan on spending the night (or longer) in the can.

I have often said the best fighting technique involves one's feet. Place one foot in front of the other, and repeat. Just as fast as one can...

I don't get in fair fights, they are too easy to lose.

I don't go walking down dark alleys at midnight. I know where not to be and when. I have decent situational awareness, know what is around me, and while overtly my head is not on a swivel, I do keep tabs of my surroundings. I am not above beating feet should the need arise. I fight only as a last resort, but should the need to fight arise - I will use anything and everything at hand to ensure I walk away.

The best fight is no fight. The second best is the one you walk away from.

Apologies. XO stands for the facial expression peopleoften make whilst losing the content of their bowels. MAM stands for Military Age Male.

There is no such thing as fighting dirty. There is only fighting.

lol

He's actually not half bad, just not as young as he used to be, I suppose. Hence the comment about military age males being dangerous opponents.



Yes, that is correct. The teen got away unscathed.

With all the pacifism in this thread, I feel like I have to make something clear:

I don't do self defense because I think it'll allow me to beat up bullies. It very much goes without saying that any mature person will go out of their way to avoid physical conflict, even if it means losing face. In fact, anyone I know will tell you I'm a kind and gentle person in real life, far beyond what is usually expected of a guy my age.

There are a number of reasons for my continued self-abuse attendance of classes:

1. Israel outlawed guns and knives (wisely, for those familiar with the local tempers), but some of us still don't like to live at the mercy of the nearest alpha male. When a guy's in my face for whatever reason, I don't want "run" and "die" to be my only two options. That is something I might have been willing to accept as a female, but for better or worse, it is not the case.

2. These days, niceness is often confused with weakness. Not that I'm afraid people will perceive me as weak - they still do. No amount of training, guns or mutant powers is going to change your personality and the way people see you. No, I'm referring to the fact people are often considered "good" when in reality, they're just impotent assholes. One can only be truly "good" if they consistently make a choice to remain harmless given other options.

I am a pacifist and avoid violence if it is at all possible.
One of the reasons is that I kept breaking my knuckles when I fought.

My dad always taught me when little boys fight the worst thing that happens is a bloody nose or busted lip.

When men fight, often someone dies (intended or not).

The message he was trying to drum in my head is that if I choose to fight as a man, make damn sure it's worth killing (and going to prison for) or dying for...

My wife and child are pretty much the only things that fit that bill.

It is stupid to get into a street fight ... for reasons of pride, ego, anger or aggression.

But it is not stupid to engage in self-protection.
And it may be vital to save your life.

If you are BOLD and you choose to fight back to protect yourself, then clearly you need to train purposefully to do this. It can't be done in half-measures - which was the point of my earlier post. You need to have a plan and the skills to back it up. Even so, you could still be seriously injured or killed. Conflict is always unpredictable.

If you are CAUTIOUS, that approach can also be successful. Your goal is to avoid a fight, avoid dangerous places, and avoid aggressive people. You need to have a plan too, and the right measures to keep bad people away ... good locks on your doors and gates, very good lighting around your home, a guard dog or a good alarm system. Friends who are close by. A reliable phone.

The trouble with any of these approaches is twofold:

1. Most people don't give quite enough attention to whatever system they adopt. People who train to fight back - are not usually ready for the real violence when it happens. People who decide to be cautious - are not able to keep their guard up and maintain a high level of alertness over the long term. Most of the population falls into the "maybe prepared" category somewhere in the middle - and is therefore is vulnerable. Criminals expect this.

2. Criminals are intelligent predators. They are not stupid, or "misunderstood persons". They team up because that increases their chances of success. You may plan to run away - but some of the gang members may block your escape. You may plan to have "situational alertness" but someone may distract you - while his buddy takes you from behind. You may plan to call 911 on your cell phone ... but someone may knock it from your hand.

Forget about lawyers and "lawyer frenzy". That will make your mind weak. You need to focus on your plan and execute it. The lawyers can wait for tomorrow. You don't have that long.

Pete

Speaking as a female, dying is still not an acceptable option.

Jeanette Isabelle

Heheh. Not "dying", but outsourcing my defensive needs to other people. To each their own, of course.

If your fear of lawyer frenzy distracts you from what you are doing, then chances are that it isn't self defense anyway.

The choice of using violence to protect yourself should be a rational choice: You don't do it unless you really have to. If you HAVE TO do it, then do whatever it takes with full force and no hesitation. See the recent "shooting aftermath" thread on this forum, it is highly relevant - after all, you're using your body as an instrument to cause grievous bodily harm and possibly death to an attacker. (This will be one end of the spectrum, the other extreme possibly being doing stuff like throw your wallet in his face, kick him in the knee and run).




As for your two methods, applying every possibly trick, skill and method to detect, avoid or weasel your way out of danger does not exclude the possibility of physically defending yourself. In fact, if you've explored all the other options you KNOW there is no other alternative - and that will fuel your determination. You'd better fight like a cornered animal, because there is no other way out.

As a positive side effect, you also have just proved to the law that this is in fact a justifiable self defense situation.

Oh, and do mentally prepare yourself to run away at first opportunity. Staying means you have to incapacitate your opponents (if not, they'll recover and take you out), and that is a) messy, b) locks very bad in court. Create a window of opportunity, then RUN.



You're right that if you're confronted it will be by someone who thinks they can take you out. It doesn't matter how strong or fit you are - they are MUCH better at judging your capacity for violence than you'll ever be. In that sense, we're all in your "somewhat prepared" group. I know I am "somewhat prepared" - I'm not really cut for martial arts (though I love the training, you can't change genetics). That doesn't mean I'm willing to lie down and give up.


My mental preparation is that I focus on getting away, no matter what it takes. Someone robs me, I comply and walk away, alive and unhurt. Someone bullies me, I weasel and sweet-talk myself out of it and walk away. I don't like the look of that gang in the parking lot, I walk away. I'm cornered and can't get away, can't sweet-talk myself out of it, can't bribe them with my wallet - THEN I literally run over whoever blocks my exit. Getting away from danger can be a whole-hearted, 100% commitment, and you use whatever means necessary, including ruthless violence.


I don't think I can devote the same determination to just "defending myself...", the idea being that I beat the offender(s) to a pulp and remain last man standing, waiting for the police and lots of beautiful babes to arrive and applaud me, the hero. I don't believe in that scenario, and can't commit myself to it. But getting away - I can and will commit myself to that.

In the future, and given the state of how technology is developing, I see the use of personal "drones" as a means of complex self defense, let me elaborate:

As electro-mechanical technology continues to minaturize, while the complexity continues to increase, building semi-autonomous platforms that provide enhanced surveillance measures and some means of deterrence along with a little AI will provide individuals with advanced warning of a potential threat, as well as an indirect means of neutralizing an attack. Imagine one of these new RC helicopters, like the ones you see flitting around in the malls these days, only equipped with a sub mini video transmitter bluetoothed to your pda. Imagine what could be put on such a platform that would help in keeping you safe and dealing with potential BGs.

Based on what I saw in Iraq, a lot of the tech is already available, and it's just waiting for someone to put it together in a non-lethal package and market it to individuals with a need, or a perceived need, for such a thing.

When it comes to public confrontations, I think it would be a great advantage for any would be assailant to wonder where the counterattack will come from, and in what form. If he's focused on me and takes a pepper spray hit from above from the drone, then that can give me a huge advantage in either escaping the confrontation, or engaging the assailant more on my terms.

Of course, once this tech gets deployed, it will be a short time until BGs figure out how to use it as aggressors.

Then it will really be a matter of who has the best toys, as the Joker would say.

Wouldn't one of these on the end on a leash be more of a deterrent (would of course need a mounted Laser though like one of these. )

Night-hiker: What I was trying to get across in my earlier comment is that there are alternatives to suit different personalities, and not just the "you must fight back" mode as the only option.

Let's make a quick analogy ... if you will permit me. Imagine a situation where you're driving down the road in your car and a ground squirrel decides to go out onto the road. A BOLD squirrel will survive - because it's fast and there's no hesitation. A CAUTIOUS squirrel will also survive because it comes to a halt at the edge of the asphalt and decide it's too dangerous to proceed. BUT the squirrels that get part-way across the road, then get consumed by fear & confusion - and then hesitate and reverse directions - are the ones who go SPLAT! People can be the same way.

Jeanette: Speaking as a guy - I can say that "dying" isn't a really great option for me either. Besides, I've heard that it's super-hard to pay the mortgage and drink a Corona once you heatbeat and respirations go well below one per minute(!).

But here's something I want you to know. I train women in basic self-defense before taking them overseas. Women CAN become excellent fighters - they just have different "triggers" than men. There is nothing wrong with your inner voice that tells you to stay alive - it's actually a big advantage. Women can be very good at self-defense precisely because they don't take excessive risks (whereas guys can exhibit dangerous risk taking behaviors). However, if that inner voice tells to to always fear conflict then you could be putting yourself in greater danger. Sometimes there is no choice and you just have to know how to respond. The great thing is that in America you have a tremendous number of choices available to you ... self-defense training, alarm systems, self-defense products, firearms, phones and communication devices, and probably a good police station in your town. Something in that mix ought to work for you.

Pete

Yes, something along the lines of Gene Simmons wonderful pets in the 1984 movie "Runaway".

This has got to be the most insightful I've ever heard about self-defense. Having a Master Plan like that is not something any of my teachers ever emphasized, it was usually "take out your opponent, move on to the next, rinse and repeat until done".

Well, thank you, but credit should be given where it is due. I am very heavily influenced by this guy:
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/

Rodion: I train in 2 systems. One of them is the Krav/Lotar system from Israel. It's an excellent system - esp. when the folks teaching it try to make the training scenarios realistic.

MostlyHarmless: I should probably have explained. There are times when I am responsible for other peoples' safety as well as my own. If it was just me - I would spend more time running away from threats :-) But I can't always be sure that other people will run fast enough. So that puts me in the situation of expanding my possible responses.

Pete

I'm sure you've read what I was replying to and can imagine why I said what I said.

Jeanette Isabelle

Jeanette:
No doubt you're right. I probably just looked at your last comment without tracing the conversation further back. However, my response was offered in jest - it was not at all serious.

As a newcomer (actually ... a returnee from a very long time ago), I have not been paying attention to some of the fine details of how this blog is organized. But now I see that each person can reply to specific earlier comments in the thread (not all blogs allow this). So I'll try to track the conversations in more detail.

cheers,
Pete

Pete -- Under "Topic Options" at the top of the page you can select threaded mode if that makes it easier to follow discrete conversations.

Russ: Thanks! Doug Ritter has got a sophisticated system going here. But that's all good - I'll take your tip and try to use it.
Pete

Ah, that would explain what has been going on. Pete, it came across to me as though you did not know who said what hence why I thought it necessary to repeat myself.

Jeanette Isabelle

Rodion

Before this thread winds down ... I just wanted to explain one comment that I made. BTW, previously I have been adding random replies on this thread (instead of replying specifically to your post).

OK - the subject came up about "executing a plan". So let me explain what I mean - and what I don't mean.

First, I DON'T mean the kind of choreographed plan for self-defense where you decide "OK, I'm going to step left, then hit with a left jab, then kick". That kind of choreography can't possibly work in a random, violent situation (although the strategy might work if a specific enemy makes the wrong moves!).

In order to understand what I mean by the word "plan", it helps to put yourself in the shoes of your enemies on the street. Let's suppose, for example, that you are in a strange town and walking at evening. Your enemy in this case is a street gang with about 5-6 guys. Now - put yourself in the situation of the gang leader. Think through what he's likely to do. First, he's got a bunch of guys that are willing to fight (which is good for him and bad for you). But he's got the problem that if he simply corners you, you can run away. So it's not smart to for him to just randomly confront you. Therefore ... think it through from his point of view. If he wants to get you, it's better to confront you when he can also use his guys to block your escape. For example, the gang can can threaten you when you are crossing an intersection. Your natural move might be to retreat in the closest direction down one of the streets. The gang follows you - hot on your heels. But what they know - and you don't - is that the street is a blind alley. Or alternatively that some of the gang have positioned themselves to cut you off down the same street. Before you know it ... you are surrounded with multiple aggressive assailants. MAM's in your dictionary. Not a good thing. They are counting on you to become weakened by fear, surprise and confusion - even before they jump you. At this stage time is very short for you to respond.

So my point is this ... your attackers are likely to be following a strategy. It's not just random violence ... it is coldly calculated. Therefore, it really does help for you to analyze some likely scenario's and evaluate a general strategy that YOU will put into place. Having a strategy means you are not "disarmed mentally" by the surprise of an unexpected conflict, and you can start moving quickly to protect yourself.

You still have to think through these scenario's yourself. Decide on a few probable scenario's and work those. You can come up with effective responses if you think about it.

Pete

Amen to that Samhain!!!!!!!!!!!!

Never mind. I'll chalk this one up to a generation gap. Moving on...

I like that idea Ben.

We've been doing that ever since we domesticated dogs (sic'em Fang!!).

One of the major drawbacks was when one's favorite dog got killed / injured in the process.

With a Robo-Fang, no need to worry about grieving its loss/injury while doing it's job.

Unless one has a really loyal and spunky one like R2-D2, then that would be a hard loss to handle. I'd think twice about sic'ing R2 on someone hazardous...

Maybe they could program irritating personalities to the drones so one wouldn't be too broken hearted when it got trashed... I'd send C3-PO into a minefield in a second!

Being a former Special Forces soldier (24 years worth) and having studied several martial arts styles (at work and on my own since I was 5) I would agree that you should avoid the fight if at all possible. Be willing to lose face and suffer a little embarrassment if necessary, do not let your ego get the best of you. Like Desperado said, you get into a fight, you will likely get hurt, win, lose or draw.

That said, the most practical style I have found, and the less technical with no "dancing" is Gracie Jiu Jitsu. If you feel the need to learn something, that would be my recommendation. And just a forewarning, even the practice hurts, so you will be ready for the real thing for sure.

I agree Jiu Jitsu and variations is likely the ultimate single combat fighting style, but the problem with real world fighting is it's never single combat... You can crush and maim your first assailant until he's a shivering blob of broken bones, but it doesn't matter if his buddy drives an icepick through the back of your head.

Of course, my Kung Fu is weak and I bow at your wisdom. It's possible a good fighter can break bones just the same in a vertical position a-la The Protector.



I've read the US military has this very sentiment in mind when planning future ground support drones.