Propane Storage....let's hear everyones ideas.

I am planning on getting a tri-fuel generator to use as a home backup. I plan on having it hooked up to the home with an automatic transfer system for emergencies. (rolling blackouts)

For fuel I am planning on using the natural gas option, because of the obvious ability to hook into the pipe into my home etc.

The facts about where I live though, Palm Springs location, in southern California, is that I am going to be hit with a large earthquake before any other type of natural disaster.

So with that knowledge, when a large earthquake hits, it is very possible that the natural gas line will be shut off or broken.

So knowing that, my only two other options are gasoline or propane.

Well the summers, like now, get to be upwards of 120 degrees outside. Inside a garage it can get to over 135-150 degrees.

So storing gasoline inside a garage or outside, I don't think is an option.

I have done some research and I was wondering if anyone has any experience in storing propane tanks. I can get new tanks (40lb) for about $50 each. If I had a few of those, then could easily last me a few days of power with the generator, if I calculated it correctly.

From when I have read as long as I store them upright and keep them away from any ignition sources, I should be as safe as having it attached to a bbq.

Any ideas or comments would be VERY welcome.

Thanks
DTT

DTT, have you called your local propane provider? I know around here you can get a large tank for a delivery fee and having it filled up. It will cost more for installation but you can also have the tanks buried, not completely buried, just the top of the tank would be seen. All of this is speculation on my part because i live in the land of sink holes and hurricanes not earthquakes.

I would recommend checking the fuel consumption of your generator choice before getting the tanks. From your post i am assuming if you are getting a automatic transfer switch that you are not getting a small generator. Whole house generators can easily drink a couple of gallons an hour or more i was talking to my propane delivery guy after several hurricanes passed though here and he said that a number of his customers have big propane generators that went though $600 to $800 in propane in a week. That's several hundred gallons of propane in a week. IIRC a 40# bottle is less than 10 gallons of propane, so you will be changing tanks every 5 hours. A large tank would at least allow you to run for a couple of days before needing a refill. And your propane provider will be happy to come out and refill it every couple of days if there is a long term outage.

Ray,

Thanks for the comments. Here is the generator I was thinking of getting:

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=608

From it's description it uses 2.2 gallons per hour, but I am assuming that is at full power. I am thinking, if I need to use it after a large earthquake (where the normal natural gas is shut off) that I will have it on for a small person A/C unit and a few lights at night.

During the day I would not need it half as much. I will have smaller personal propane tanks for stoves and such.

I was thinking the 40lb tanks because then I could use a dolly and transport them to a truck or 5th wheel if needed. That way if we ever need to bug out, I will have options.

Thanks for that advice. If my generator only does a total of 12500 watts, do I really need to worry about NG only going up to 13000 watts?

The reason I was thinking of natural gas is that I have natural gas for the pool, bbq, etc. So getting an extra line for the generator should not be a big deal.

Why does it ruin a generator?

I am running out of options here. There is no logical way for me to store gasoline in this heat. Even if I had a shed, how safe would it really be?

Storing propane is alot easier, compared to gasoline.

So basically you are saying I should get that generator, but have it hooked up to a large 250 gallon propane tank for emergencies and run off of that?

Thanks Again

Does this generator have an autostart function, if it does not then you don't need to spend the extra money for an automatic transfer switch. Automatic transfer switches need to be tied to a generator with auto start to be able to start the generator and transfer the power to the house. Manual transfer switches are available.

The larger the engine on the generator the more fuel it will use even when it is not running at full power. The last time i was thinking about a 10k generator the unloaded fuel consumption was a little over a gallon an hour. Yours may be slightly less because i was looking at a multi function generator, http://store.cyberweld.com/miltrail30on.html Decided that it was cheaper to borrow a welding box (that is in an air conditioned building) than it is to buy one.

And while i am someone who usually goes for bigger is better, why are you going for a large generator if you are only going to run a small window shaker (AC), a few lights, and the fridge. If you are not going to be running the central AC or a water pump you should be able to get by with a 3k to 5k generator. Most of the smaller sized generators can be adapted to use propane and still retain the ability to run on gasoline. Going to a smaller sized generator may make it easier to deal with fuel storage, you won't have to keep as much fuel on hand to stay in power. Also most generator ratings are based on gasoline use, for propane you need to de-rate power about 10% and for natural gas 20%. Check the power usage of the items you are going to run and size the generator accordingly.

To give you an example, when the storms blew through down here i was without power for a total of 2 weeks. Using a 4k lincoln 125 generator i was running a 3/4 horse well pump when needed, a refrigerator, a chest freezer. a few CFL's, couple of fans, and of course the TV which was used to pacify the old people here. The generator would run for 5 hours on two and a half gallons of gas. Since then i have invested in a couple of small AC's and a 3k honda inverter generator. It easily runs the fridge, freezer, and two small AC units. It is very quiet and fuel frugal so i can run it all the time and only run the larger genny when i need more power. Of course having two generators means that there is twice as many spare parts and maintenance items to keep, fuel filters, air filters, spark plugs, and oil. I haven't had the opportunity to do a run time test to see how much fuel the little generator uses yet, in other words, no long power outages since owning it.

Have you tried using safety gas cans? http://tinyurl.com/ywevez
Stored in a building away from the house, i don't think that you would have a problem. While i don't live in the 120 in the shade part of the world it is in the high 90's kind of hot here all the time. The steel cans don't shrink or swell up and don't smell of gas. These are built more like a vehicle gas tank. And i understand your hesitation to store gasoline in the heat. If i put two full 5 gallon plastic cans in the garage for a couple of days the whole garage smells like gas, and it's not coming from me or the car. Since i started using safety cans i have never smelled any gasoline odor in the garage. I also use euro style steel jerry cans and keep a full one in the back of my truck and it does not leak, even stored on it's side, these are the same cans you see on the backs of vehicles traveling thought the desert. Won't include a link because they are illegal where you live. I'm not saying that you need to go with gas, just think about it.


Don't store any propane tank inside of a building. To expand a little on what Izzy said, there is a over pressure relief valve on propane tanks as the temps go up and the pressure inside the tank goes up the vent will open and fill your building with explosive gas.

Well in that little room I would use in emergencies there is a small A/c unit outside that I would like to run. Plus I have 2 fridges and a few other things I would like to run.

How I decided on that large a unit is just looking at the largest tri-fuel I could find

Ok so here are my questions.

Can I store gasoline in those safety cans in a storage shed in my weather climate?

There are so many threads that I am confused as to what I can and cannot do.

In a shortage...what am I most likely to find?

Gasoline?
Propane?

I know that pretty much any generator will run what I need to run....so I am just confused as to the best fuel in my situation and needs.

Izzy, the lifetime of engines on NG was explained a little differently to me by people who converted engines to run on NG. NG is much cleaner than gas or propane. So water cooled engine life is almost double what you can get out of a engine on gasoline, and when you get to the time of rebuild the inside of the engine is very clean since it has much less abrasive carbon in the fuel, which is also why NG has a lower energy density. One of my customers used CNG in delivery trucks and routinely hit 400,000 mile before rebuilds were necessary, and these engine retained the ability to run on gasoline. When the high mile engines were torn down the cylinder bores were usually still within manufactures tolerances and didn't need to be re-bored. The other customer made NG powered air conditioners, back up cooling for hospitals and such. The V8 powered AC's were rated for tear down at 40,000 to 60,000 hours.

The problem with air cooled engines as it was explained to me is in the mechanics of the fuel not going though a state change to help cool the engine. Air cooled engines running on gasoline are usually run fuel rich, as the gasoline goes from being a liquid to a gas it helps cool the engine. Running an engine on NG there is NO cooling effect from the fuel, so running an engine in the Florida or California heat on a fuel that is not helping to cool the engine will usually toast it.

DTT, What i would recommend, and i am by no means an expert, is that if you decide to go with a small generator 3k to 5k i would stay with gasoline. And it is difficult to find a ready made small dual fuel unit. If you are going to use a larger 5k plus sized generator i would go with a duel or tri fueled unit.

As far as which fuel would be more available after an earthquake, i don't know. If the roads to your place are passable, the propane truck will be able to get to your house and fill the tank. Or you can leave to go get more gas.

On storing gasoline i have not had any trouble. Are you storing any fuel in the shed now? Don't know if you need gas for the lawn mower or your dirt bike. The only way to know for yourself go to your favorite big box store and buy one safety can and fill it with fuel and stabilizer put it in the shed and check it on a regular basis.

I went with gasoline because i already needed to keep gas for other things, aside from the generators there is an air compressor, chain saw, weed eater, and i also keep 5 to 10 gallons of diesel for the lawn mower too. But the cheap plastic fuel containers did not inspire much confidence, if you leave it out in the sun for 10 minutes it looks like a beach ball and there was always the aroma of gasoline where ever the cans were stored. So i decided that i needed a better way to store gas because i need to have gas. I hope that makes sense.

Ray,
Thanks for the advise. Actually if you look at the link I posted above they have SEVERAL tri Fuel generators of large sizes.

I was thinking if I got about 5 of those justrite cans, since they have the vapor valve etc. They are build very sturdy. I could store them in my shed without any worries.

With the generator doing 1 1/2 gallons per hours of gasoline, then I could easily have 2 days of fuel, for daily use and just the a/c during the day.

The shed has ventilation in the roof, so any vapors should evaporate. I will use stabilizer and then rotate the gas every 6 months.

I could always add more cans in the future if needed.

Izzy, i am in no way saying that you are wrong because i don't work with the stuff and i don't know for sure. Most of the information i received was from a gas company tech that did engine conversions. I've been next to some the of the engines in his shop and the gas line comes out of the ground (constant ground temps around 70-75 degrees f?) though a pipe to a regulator, then rubber hose, and back to a steel line going into the carb. The fuel is coming out of the ground as vapor already, so it is not going through a state change. So it should be at the same temp as the line going into the carb.

I could see the effect that you are describing if the NG was in a liquid form going into the engine. NG boils at over 200 degrees below 0 if i remember correctly and if that was direct injected into an engine it would cool to it's boiling point. And the lawn mower engines on most generator wouldn't stand the stress.

Maybe someone else will chime in and tell both of us why our eyes are brown.

DTT, i have a number of the steel cans and store them with stabil for 6-8 months, and rotate the old fuel into the truck. With my absent minded ness i put string tie labels on the can and on the generator so i know when to rotated out the fuel. If you get a generator with a battery be sure to start it at least once a month to keep the battery charged and it is a good idea to start it on a regular basis even if it doesn't have a battery. When the fuel in the generator reaches the "expiration date" i syphon out the old fuel, refill with fresh stabilized gas, then run the engine on the fresh fuel till it is warm and then change the oil.

And i am going to say this again, be sure you check the wattage requirements of everything that you are going to run and be sure the generator is large enough for your needs. Also when you are running the generator a little power management will go a long way. Be sure to unplug things that are not being used. I know that sounds like common sense but when you are in stressful situation you don't always think about the power all of the toys we have in our house use power even when off. Work within the sizing of your generator, a 5k set will power your toaster, the microwave, and the washing machine. It will just not run all three at the same time, so make sure that everyone in the house understands that. It will help to reduce the trips to the generator to reset it's circuit breakers.

I just added up my the needs my family of 5 (about to be 6) for a generator.

Approx

10175 consistent power
15650 startup power

Now I did go overboard a bit on what we would need. Plus that is including a washer and dryer which we would not be running at the same time and consistently.

Does that seem normal or like alot?

Item Running Watts / Starting Wattage

AC unit 3800 / 4950
(2)Refrigerator 1200/4400
Microwave 750/800
Electric Skillet 1500/0
Lighting 600/0
Radio 100/0

So I cut the list down to needed things....the numbers now look like:

7950 running watts / 10150 starting watts.

Does that seem better?

What do you think about this model:

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=608

I was hoping to go for some type of tri fuel so that if I needed alternative methods of fuel, I would have that option.

Am I just needing too much power to go for a tri-fuel?

BTW I did get your PM..thanks for that explanation and for the pics....it helps me understand everything easily.

Lose the electric skillet and use your propane camp stove or BBQ grill. When you want to run the microwave turn off the AC or unplug the fridges for a few minutes. For lighting don't use incandescent lights, use CFL's, 15watts to power a bulb instead of 100. For start up turn on the AC first and then power up other things in order to stay with in the start up capacity of your generator.

A little warning, if you decide to hook up your generator the way Izzy did his, it violates the electric code in this country. I know a electrical engineer with a degree from MIT that set his garage on fire doing this. I don't know what he did wrong other than he has no common sense. Now having said that i hook up my generator exactly the same way that Izzy does. You need to be realistic about your own abilities to hook up the generator correctly so as not to hurt anyone or anything. If in doubt have a transfer switch installed or go with something like this,

http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm

If you want to learn more about power management and how to cut back do a little research on some of the solar energy sites, there is a lot of information out there.

I just added the electric skillet for things I assumed I was leaving out

I have cfl's in most of the places in my home, like I said, I was over estimating once again.

The tri-fuel seems like a great idea, but the problem is that, a generator that weighs 500 is not going to, at least not easily, find it's way into my truck when and if I have to leave.

It doesn't seem to be able to be hooked up to a tow hook on the truck, so it will most likely stay at home.

I will just have to get a smaller personal one, then if we have to move, we can with power.

Also, I am thinking about the gasoline option because if for some reason we need to leave and the cars are not filled, we can fill them up.

I never thought I would like to be called Death....but that is so kewl :P

" The transfer switch must be a break-before-make switch which will "break" the electrical connection with commercial power lines before it "makes" the connection between your generator and wiring."

Maybe i am misunderstanding something about your panel. What i understand is that you are turning off the main breaker and then you are turning on a separate breaker to energize your sub panel. Is there a mechanical interlock to prevent someone from pluging in your generator, turning on its breaker to energize the panel and then switching off main breaker? If there is not a mechanical interlock the generator hook up does not meet electrical code. If there is an interlock then i did not understand you correctly.

And my friend is very smart, he just has the common sense of a doorknob. It would not surprize me if he cross wired something to create a dead short.

Sorry Izzy, i misunderstood. You did use the correct breakers to meet code.

Izzy,

Do you have an exact list of what is needed to make this extra box?

Out here where I live, electricians love to charge double for things that the customers don't even need!

I just want to make sure I don't get too ripped off

Izzy,

BTW can you give me your opinion on these:

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=727

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=345

Why again did you return it? Is it anything I should be worried about?

If I may ask a dumb question

Why are you not looking at diesel generators? You can buy off road diesel cheaper, Diesel engines have long lives, Diesel is combustible not flammable (I have heard the difference but can't seem to remember what it exactly is). same storage options as gasoline add stabilizer. I work construction and have used many different types of diesel welding machines as well as propane. Diesel jsut seems to bea a more logical choice. well maybe not if you don't have something diesel to use the fuel in when you rotate it. You can also use bid diesel with just a few modifications or make your own bid diesel if you really wanted to

I have not found diesel in the wattage size that I needed.

That is the first thing. I have never worked with diesel.

Otherwise I don't know what to say you.

Please excuse my limited knowledge, but since you're in one of the most sun intense, cloudless areas in the US, why not consider solar with a battery bank and a smaller generator?

GREAT QUESTION!!

From my research solar battery bank would not run half the electricity in the house first off.

Second there is no way to run a a/c strictly from battery. I have look at solar systems from the home and whenever I have looked at it, the results have been the same.

It would not pay for over half my bill (therefore not making it worth the startup money)

Second being that none would install the battery backup as it would be a waste of money.

Actually, Cummins/Onan makes a line of quiet, smaller generators in diesel, propane, natural gas, etc. that I've personally seen working very well in diesel RV's. The RV generators are from 3200W to 10kW and can be plugged into a house system quite easily. There are also permanently mounted residential generators from 11kW to 45kW but the prices get prohibitive quickly.

As for solar, a decent solar installation absolutely can supply residential needs *if* your home is designed for it. Almost all modern homes in the US can't function without central air, use lots of power to overcome awful thermal design, and are not candidates for solar or most sorts of off-grid power. Normally, the solar *is* the hot water heater as solar does a fantastic job of that. Once you've got decent shades minimizing incident sunlight on your high-R windows and better insulation installed in your walls and attic/ground interfaces, a high-efficiency heat pump can supply your home's moderate cooling needs.

If you're using solar without a battery, you're on the grid and running the meter backwards during the day. It's an extraordinarily bad plan to use plain solar to directly drive your 110V circuits. The moment the transient load exceeds the transient supply, your breakers would all go. If you expect to run detached from the grid, an appropriately sized battery bank is not optional.

Strange thing about the US. Home construction here is absolutely terrible. If you don't spend a lot of money, you get a small, cheaply made, stick-built home. If you do spend a lot of money, you get a large, cheaply made, stick-built home. You need to provide a rather extraordinarily large degree of effort to get anything better. Or buy something made more than forty years ago.

I'm not so sure. I found this article about a dircect current AC system made for use with solar power. I think the price is around $3000 with installation. Pricey, but it looks pretty innovative.

http://news.com.com/Using+solar+energy+to+keep+homes+cool/2100-11392_3-6168616.html?tag=st.num



http://www.solcool.net/


Pretty cool stuff. I wonder how well it works?

I understand your concerns, and didn't mean that "solar is teh win!" It is only a good idea for very few modern homes in the US, simply because of how we build houses in the US. I'll use solar if and when I build my own place, but not until then. I only objected to the characterization that solar is for hippies (cause I'd love to have solar, but I'm not a hippy by any stretch of the imagination

As you've already figured out, a big propane or diesel (fuel oil) tank and a decently sized genset make much more sense for most people. The one thing I would really caution you about is to not go cheap on your genset. Those cute little 5kW Honda generators for $600 won't deliver power for long. Most won't last four weeks under continuous use (about 600 hours).

In addition to the Cummins/Onan gensets I mentioned, you might save some coin by considering a no-name Chinese diesel generator, like those offered by this company: http://www.hardydiesel.com/ (stay away from any diesel that's not 1800 rpm). These Chinese diesels and generators are low-rpm copies of very old German (not British) engine designs. They're dirt simple to maintain, can be completely torn down and rebuilt in a weekend (with shadetree mechanic tools), and have a well-established habit of lasting for decades. They're heavier and bulkier than the Onan RV gensets, are a little less efficient, but the fact that you can fix most issues yourself is a big bonus in my book.

If you are going for an on-site propane system, I would try to refit your water heater, kitchen stove, and furnace away from electric to propane (the fridge can also run from propane http://www.warehouseappliance.com/propane_gas_refrigerators.htm ). This will let you continuously consume and replace fuel (fresher fuel), will help you make certain your fuel delivery components in good order, and will also allow you to size a much smaller generator for your household electrical loads.

Hey now!! The Chinese make great LEAD BASED TOYS...let's not insult them !!!

BTW My burners, fireplace, water heater, all use natural gas now already. So it may not be propane...but it is not electric

rabagley, welcome to the forum.

The diesels that are based on the old British designs are made in India (i'm sure that some are made in China also),

http://www.utterpower.com/Lister%206/1.htm

If you are looking to build your own there is a lot of good information on this site.

The "China Diesels" are based on a German design, if i remember correctly. From what i understand the build quality of these units is poor and you might make it to a few hundred hours before a major mechanical malfunction happens. Have lots of spares and know how to work on it.

The India made engines don't have a stellar reputation either. These are the engines can be torn down and put back together in an afternoon. And you still need to have lots of spares and know how to work on it.

If you are looking for an diesel that parts are available though the US one of the Detroit diesel refer generators might be the way to go. Here are a couple of sites,

http://www.green-trust.org/wiki/index.php?title=Green-Trust_Heat_%26_Power_System

http://stores.ebay.com/AFFORDABLE-POWER

Disclaimer, i have no affiliation with any of the above web sites and this is presented for information purposes only.

If you like working on and playing with engines, one of these would be a wonderful toy. But if you want a small reliable diesel generator i would go for an Onan or one of the welder/generators mentioned by Reddog.

Update....


Well I am starting to prepare...I got my (3) 5 Gallon Justrite Cans today, funnel included.

Now it is time to fill them up (not for the generator, as I don't have it yet) but to fill the cars if needed.

Also time to start saving for the generator. Should have enough in about 2 months. Hopefully nothing will happen before then

Small steps are still steps....

Holy crap. Those AFFORDABLE POWER gensets look awesome. I know of one person who's had one of the Chinese generators for about ten years, and though he complains a little about the lack of regulation (when he adds loads, there are temporary voltage and frequency sags), he doesn't have any reliability complaints.

But with these gensets running even slower and just as efficient (1gal/hour to supply a 12kW load is excellent) and being a much more established Detroit Diesel prime mover...

Get one of these.

Those things are huge! I really don't know where I would put that....

About storing those justrite cans...I have a section of my house that only gets sun for 1-2 a day and in the morning....so if I put those cans there, obviously filled, would I even need to worry about putting them in a shed?

They have the vapor valves on them...so if they did get hot then it would release the vapors...I hope

My garage gets sunlight all day. I spoke to a local company that sells generator and they said as long as the cans get vented, which the justrite cans already do, then I should not have any issues.

Justrite also said the same things about the ventilation.

The area I am going to place them in has no electrical outlets, pilot lights, etc. within 5 feet.

So I should be alright. My garage gets hotter then hades in the summer, because of the all day sun exposure.

Shouldn't I?

As long as your garage has the wall vents on the bottom (as most of my California houses did), then it should be fine. Any gas vapors that vent from the Justrite cans will be able to escape from the garage. Also consider whether your garage sits below any other living space (i.e., first-floor garage sits below second-floor bedrooms), as that can cause some problems if the gasoline accelerates a fire.

There may be some other NFPA codes and recommendations (which I think includes not storing gasoline in any part of the actual house, unless it’s a detached building), but heeding the above paragraph would at least mitigate most of the risks.

My local law says that I cannot store more then 100 gallons of gasoline on my residential location. I have the three 5 gal Justrite cans sitting on a metal storage rack fight next to the suicide vents (the slang term for the gas vapor vents)

I am putting a thermostat in the garage first for a few days and see how hot it really gets in there before I fill them up for gas. Just to make sure. Make sure of what? I don't know..... lmao.

Look at what I found:

http://duropower.com/index.asp?FID=14&level=1

the smallest they will see in california is the 15k version...a 1000lbs beast...but look at those stats!!

Also here:

Plus they lease...maybe this would be a better option. Since if the world goes to hell, then who needs to worry about payments

JUST KIDDING!!

http://www.generatorjoe.net/product.asp?0=541&1=552&3=451

No comments?

Ok, riddle me this...

How do I calculate the wattage that is going to be used by an item, if I have the amps and volts?

P=V×I

Power is equal to the voltage times the current. For example, 120 volts times 0.5 amps would produce 60 watts.

I am re-evaluating, (ONCE AGAIN) my generator needs. By the time I save up 4-5k for the size I would want to run the whole home, it will be a while.

So I have really thought about if the power did go out, and the gas lines were broken, after a bad earthquake, where are we going to be staying?

Well if it is a small quake and the power is out. First I will check out the house structure as best as I can.

Once with, my limited knowledge, I feel comfortable about staying in the house with the family, we would most likely only occupy a single room, until the power comes back up.

Knowing that, here is what I anticipate using:

(4) florescent ceiling lights

(1) Microwave

(1) Small TV (for kids)

(1) VCR/DVD Player

(1) Small portable A/C Unit (13,000) BTU

Those are all the basic needs we would have.

If the house was not capable of being occupied, we would move into a full size tent.

If that is the situation, then we would still use all the same things mentioned above but the ceiling lights.

With those thoughts, I don't need a 10k generator.

I should only need 5-6k at most.

The only thing I would need to change in supply is water for the portable A/C.


Is there anything I am missing?

Very true, but here is the situation. Either wait 6 - 7 months till I can start to see the possibility of getting one that big, or get the other one in 1-2 months.


What would you do?

Remember that I have a wife and 4 kids

Yeah but if we are in a situation where we have no power because of an earthquake....I am not going to have the internet. Plus I always can find another small tv to plug into the generator

Death, how about the fridge? Or will all of your youngin's devour the contents within a day?

With what you are running 5k-6k should be enough. When you run the microwave you might need to turn off the AC. But you should be able to make it work.

I noticed in some of your post you were looking at diesels, if you spend the money and go this way get a low speed water cooled unit. The small high speed 3600rpm, air cooled diesels are not as durable as the slower units and you will get worse fuel economy. The fuel economy of the high speed diesels is comparable to the same type of unit that will run on gas. And since diesel cost more per gallon it will be more expensive to run.

Since you are putting a lot of thought, and soon to be money, into this why not get two generators. Yes, this is something else to add to your thinking process, but i am just asking you to think about this. Won't even raise this to the level of suggesting it, but think about purchasing a fair quality generator in the 5-6k range. Do a test run one weekend when you don't need it just so you can see how everything works and what you need to do differently just in case you really need it. Then start saving up for the BIG rig that will run your house and keep everyone fat and happy. After you go for the big one you can sell you little genny or keep it as a spare, just in case the big one doesn't start. You can also use the spare generator as a bargaining chip. After the hurricanes passed though here i loaned my spare generator to next door, yes i am the favorite neighbor, and then handed him all of my empty gas cans. He had a genny and i had gas. Just something else for you to think about.

And don't forget to have four rolls of duct tape to keep the little ones busy, it will use less power than four tv's.

Well I have been looking around for diesel, etc....I am just tierd...

The more I look the more things say the same. Meaning I see the good reasons for both.

At this point I have to think of the following.

Money

Fuel Storage

Generator Size

Wattage


From those thoughts, it is going to be a gasoline generator or tri fuel generator. Obviously gas generators are cheaper, that is not really the largest issues.

I will just put the fuel in a shed, which will get rid of the issues of worrying about my garage.

Most of the generators I am seeing that are diesel, that run 10k watts or over are too big for me to put anywhere.

I don't think I would be totally happy with either or as I am the kind of person who almost always thinks about what it would be like on the other side

Ray,

BTW I think you are on to something with the 2 generators....I might get one for the AC and then another for everything else.

The A/C, being a 13 SEER is a beast and during the winter I don't really need it, to be honest.....so I appreciate the suggestion

I would strongly suggest that you add "generator duty cycle" and "generator service life" to your list of things to think about.

High-speed generators have a very limited duty cycle. Most have a 50% duty cycle, so using them for more than a few hours straight at full load without a break of the same length means losing quite a bit of service life. High-speed generators also have a service life of 1000 hours. Under ideal conditions and usage (50% duty cycle), expect your gasoline generator to require a complete overhaul (same cost as a new generator) after 1000 hours of use. If you do run your generator constantly, expect a service life of 100 hours or less.

Ray's note about high-speed diesel generators being almost as bad as gasoline generators is on the money. 3600rpm means inefficient and early death. Just since I've been reading this thread (and seeing those Affordable Power units), I've shifted from wanting an 1800rpm genset to a 1200rpm genset.

In Katrina, lots of people had gasoline generators. Lots of those gasoline generators failed within 48 hours because they were not given any rest and burned themselves up. Sure, they were covered under warranty, but it's tough to get warranty service when your local roads are impassable.

Everyone I talk to about generators calls gasoline (including tri-fuel) generators "toy generators" or "fuzzy blankets". You feel better having it in the garage, but you're not really better off. The consensus I've heard: they're okay for a worksite or the occasional trailer camping trip, but don't bet your life on them.

I'd just hate for you to spend all of this time and that money planning to help yourself with a generator and then have something that doesn't help you at all. Or, only helps you for a couple of days.

I checked the shipping on those Affordable Power gensets and it's only $250 to LA. Assuming Palm Springs is a little less, that's $2600 for a bulletproof 12kW generator that will save you money hand over fist on fuel and maintenance, and assuming you drop off the grid tomorrow, won't need an overhaul until 2017.

I appreciate that advice.

Where are those affordable ones again? I am trying to find the link, but am running into a lost trail of links...


You make some great points. I have to agree with you on alot of what you said. It is just so hard to make a decision.

ahh found the site...well the issue is I have no where to put something that big. Not even a chance....so I am kind of back to the same issues.

http://kwicindustries.net/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45&products_id=78

How about this unit looks good...I can fit that on my side yard....

Here is the link to Affordable Power,

http://stores.ebay.com/AFFORDABLE-POWER

Word of warning these are used generators that have not been rebuilt. Tested, serviced, and painted is what the website says.

And as rabagley suggests don't by a cheap gas generator. I would recommend a Yamaha or Honda, real Honda, not just a generator that has a honda motor on it. If you want to step up from there go for one of the engine driven welder/generators. The most well known being a Lincoln or Miller.

http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentseries.asp?browse=101|400|

http://www.millerwelds.com/products/enginedriven/

If you know how to weld you could even make a little extra money with one of these. The welder generators have a higher resale value, and are also available in diesel.

If you want to see what generators in your area hold up the best go to a couple of tool rental companies and see what brands they rent, if it holds up to rental use and abuse it will last you a very long time. Tool rental companies are a spare parts source too, and if you have the same brand you will have greater options of where to get something when you really need it.

Any comments on that unit I linked to above?

I've seen those same gensets on craigslist in seattle for a whole lot cheaper. And for that price you could get a generac from costco with a transfer switch and have several hundred $$'s left over.

what is a generac? Is that a brand?

That chinese-built 1800rpm diesel generator actually looks pretty nice. They're about 90 minutes drive from me, so probably two hours for you. That means the opportunity to go down and take a long look before you buy.

Is this the guardian one you purchased?

Do you regret getting this versus a diesel?

Generac makes a number of generators including whole house generators which are usually propane or NG. Seem to be good quality and last a while. I left them out of my opinion just because i have not used one, take Izzy's advice on that.

As far as the china generators i don't know what to tell you, i have not used one, and i don't know anyone with one. If there is a place close enough that you can stop by for a visit and check it out, might be worth a trip.

So do you wish you would have gotten a diesel instead? Are you worried about a short lifespan with your gasoline version?

Do you have a link to the palce where you bought yours?

Are these the same guardian generator company that are sold on the website at the start of this thread? The portable 15k and 17k units?

I happen to have my NG line right near where I want the generator to go.

So you would say that the 15k Guardian is a good way to go?

I am confused....check out this link:

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=345

Is this the same company and unit, just not in a sealed case?

Thanks
DTT


UPDATE:

seem to be:

http://www.guardiangenerators.com/Products/Ultrasource/Ultrasource.aspx

So I am confusing the difference between standby generator and portable generator?

Reading the specs, they show the same engine....

and mostly the same specs on everything else..

Thanks for the explanation.

Any idea what this means:

"Longest Life Expectancy in the Industry: Over 3,000 hours of run time"

Basically after 3000 hours the unit should be expected to break down or is it after 3000 hours I should service it?

That is from both the standby and portable unit description, BTW.

BTW is the top photo the one you currently use?

Is it hooked up to your whole house?

That is the one I want to get...the 17,500 watt unit. Seems like a great deal. I want one I can take with me in the future when/if I move to a new house

I have to say that my biggest worry is that when a big earthquake hits (which I know it will) that if the power goes out, then the whole city stops.

I am convinced that if something above a 7.0 hits that the gas lines will be shut down for a bit to check for leaks around the city. Then my NG stand by will not do me any good.

What I really want to do is have everything I need on hand in the house and not need to depend upon a public utility or someone else to make sure I get through it with my family.

Hopefully that makes sense as to why I am hesitant of a NG standby generator.

Am I being TOO causious? There is being preparred and being paranoid.

The best whole house residential generators are made by Kohler in my opinion. I have friends with both brands. No problem with Kohler for more than ten years. One with Generac had an oil problem- failure- basement flood 3 weeks ago.

Kohler http://www.kohlerpower.com/residential/sectionfront.htm?sectionNumber=13561

Izzy,

I guess I am going off of personal experience. In 1993, if I remember correctly, there was a 7.4 earthquake and the epicenter was 60 miles from my home.

I remember specifically that there was an announcement on the news that we were, if possible, to shut off gas and water valves until further , they said it was only a few hours, to minimize any possible leak issues.

So I am thinking of those past experiences. I am not sure if it is fortunately or unfortunately but I am really only subjected to one major natural disaster, Earthquakes. So I am not really worried about hurricanes, tornadoes, Tsunami, Locust, Frogs from the Sky, etc.

I have my (3) 5 gallon Justrite cans. So that is 15 gallons. The generator should have 15 gallons already in it. Then my wife and I have implemented a new rule, always fill the cars when they are down to half a tank. With that in mind, my car should have 10 with a half a tank, and the other 13.
So I should have a total of 53 gallons of fuel on hand for the generator at all times.

I guess I don't trust anything that will be under the ground when the ground is the thing I am most worried about

I really do appreciate all your help.


BTW I heard that the 15k and 17.5k don't actually put out that wattage. The most it will put out is 12k. Ummm....what happens to the rest of the wattage?

Do not count on being able to get at the gasoline inside the vehicles’ tanks unless you know from first-hand experience that a siphon hose will successfully enter the tank without being blocked. Most newer-model cars have an anti-siphon device that blocks any siphon hose from getting to the fuel.

Here is where I got that information....and they dealer seems to acknowledge the issue..

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/...;reviews_id=224

Actually I was just going to use a rusty drill bit to make a hole in the tank!

J/K

Very good point, I have heard of this before, but didn't think about it till now.

Something to think about.

Have you heard of any solutions to this?

How was your price in comparison to the one on that link?

and I need to make sure that it has a 70 amp fuse...not 50?

I’ve heard of several, actually. Which one would work best for you is up to you.

• Drill a hole in the gas tank, as you mentioned.
• Use the drain plug in the bottom of the tank, if your car has one (only on some cars, and most all of those are imports).
• Disconnect the gas tank from the filler tube and insert your siphon hose directly into the gas tank. I can’t comment on how difficult this might be, but one of my friends who works in a junk yard informed me of this method.
• Hook a hose up to the fuel injection rail’s test port (if equipped) and activate the fuel pump (best by jumping the connectors for the fuel pump relay, so you can stop the flow when ready).
• Get a commercial solution that utilizes the method above, such as the EZ-FUEL.

So this one?

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=124742-24212-4987&lpage=none


So is the 50 amp fuse in the generator itself or the transfer switch?

Something easy enough for me to do?

From the docs it looks like the one on the underside middle (the one that attaches to the transfer power inlet box) and the one on the power inlet box.

That sound about right?

BTW is there an item to hookup in between to show the actual watts being drawn from the generator? Just for information and to make sure I don't overload it by mistake?

Well I just spoke to Generac and they said that the portable 17500 engine is the exact same engine as the regular home stand by generators shown here:

http://www.guardiangenerators.com/Products/Residential/Guardian/Guardian.aspx

They did mention that it is the same for the 10k, 13k, 16k, 18k units.

The only difference is obviously the fuel source.

They also mentioned that normally the units come with the 50 amp plug, so certain dealers may offer the 70 amp as an upgrade but if I change it out myself, it could void the warranty.

Yuppers...glad I could be of service

The part about not being able to get more than 13kw on natural gas is only because you had a 15kw dual fuel unit. Propane delivers more energy than nat gas, so you get a higher output when using that fuel. The conversion from gasoline to nat gas doesn't harm the generator either. Commercial generators use the same engines for natural gas as they do for gasoline.