LT Water Storage Questions, Part 2

A multi-part question here:
What makes long term stored water go "stale" or unuseable? Is it simply a loss of oxygen, or is there another composition change?

If it's treated sterile water and the problem is simply a loss of oxygen, why then could a barrel (or bottles) of LT stored water not be re-oxygenated?

Water is a molecule of 2 parts (2 atoms) hydrogen, 1 part (1 atom) oxygen, unless it undergoes electrolysis into elemental hydrogen and oxygen, it will remain H2O. Water can have dissolved oxygen (why fish can respire in water), but his does not affect the potablity of the water. Yes, it does affect the “taste”, which is why it is often recommended to pour boiled water from container to container, which will introduce dissolved oxygen and improve the taste. If the water is sterile and is maintained in a sterile sealed container, it cannot go “bad”. This additive, likely is, like adding hydrogen peroxide, in which a small amount of nascent or free oxygen is generated which has bacterialcidal properties.

Pete

So the need to "rotate your water" every few years, is more related to it's taste than it's purity.

Could an aquarium pump intoduce oxygen safely into 55 gallon drums of sterile water, and if so, would the water need to be retreated afterward?

The problem as I see it, would be to ensure the water in a 55 gal drum is truly sterile and is that sterility maintainable. Introduction of oxygen (aeration) is of little value until you go to drink the water (strictly for taste).

As to your question, even if the water was sterile to start with, the use an aquarium pump (assuming you can sterilize the internal workings of the pump) to aerate the water would likely result in contamination with airborne organisms.

I would look to long-term storage of water by treating the water with 2-3 times the normal bleach concentration, first ensuring the type of container will not be adversely affected by bleach and that your starting water quality (in term of organics, heavy metals, etc.) is in acceptable ranges. Most food grade 55 gal drums should be fine. I recently purchased two drums, one of each type from this Ebay seller. He has increased the prices quite a lot, since I purchased mine and you may want to check around before purchasing any from him/her. I have not used mine yet, but based upon the description, they are likely the best quality drums on the market.

Blue Light - Water Drums

Pete

Oxygen dissolved in water is also important for health, not only for taste.

AFAIK, people living in high mountainous areas and drinking only spring water (insuffisantly oxygenated - at high altitude, water has not get a chance to "absorb" enough oxygen, due to too short a travel) are more subject to goitre (A goitre is an enlarged thyroid gland) than the average population.

OTOH, drinking "de-oxygenated" (SP?) water for a short period, such as in an emergency situation, should not rise that kind of problem.

Sorry to have to strongly disagree with you, but a goiter is generally the result of iodine deficiency (why salt is commonly iodized). Lack of dissolved oxygen in water is (since we are not fish) strictly a taste issue.

From a search of Web MD:
“A goitre (or goiter) (Latin struma) is a swelling in the neck (just below adam's apple or larynx) due to an enlarged thyroid gland. The most common cause for goitre in the world is iodine deficiency. Other causes are:

1. Hashimoto's thyroiditis
2. Graves-Basedow disease
3. juvenile goitre
4. neoplasm of the thyroid
4. thyroiditis (acute, chronic)
5. side-effects of pharmacological therapy

Iodine is necessary for the synthesis of the thyroid hormones, triiodothyronine and thyroxine (T3 and T4). When iodine is not available these hormones cannot be made. In response to low thyroid hormones, the pituitary gland releases thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH).

Thyroid stimulating hormone acts to try and increase synthesis of T3 and T4, but also causes the thyroid gland to grow in size as a type of compensation.”

Pete

In addition, water is water, dissolved oxygen in no way changes water’s molecular structure. Dissolved oxygen is usually introduced into water through motion, i.e. precipitation, stream/river dynamics/agitation, poring water from one container to another. Water at higher elevations, may or may not (please site your source of this information) contain lower dissolved oxygen concentrations. However, since water absorption in the intestine, is by osmosis of the water molecule, what might be dissolved in the water is not necessarily transported across the intestinal mucosa, as each of these molecules would be absorbed/transported or not based upon their individual concentration in relationship to intercellular, interstitial and intervascular concentrations. The intestine is primary anaerobic (without oxygen), therefore I suspect oxygen concentrations in the area of the intestine where water is absorbed to be minimal at best. I think (do not know this for sure, but it is consistent with what chemistry and physiology I know) that any dissolved oxygen in consumed water would likely dissipate in the presence of stomach acids.

Pete

We already have two sterilized food grade 50 gallon drums. I'll fill them, treat the water and let them sit as stored treated water ....forever? If we need drinking water years from now we can pump portions of the water out of the drums and: 1. re-oxygenate via an aquarium pump with a charcoal filter or other sterile mechanical means and 2: re sterilize portions of the water to be consumed (just to be safe). Right?

Paramedic Pete: thank your for sharing your knowledge!

I smell a project....

Does anyone know what wavelength and intensity the UV water sterializer systems use? If they make an LED of that, run a sealed strip of them down the inside of the drum, and seal the points where the contracts enter with silicone. The LEDs run for, say 4 hours out of every 24. It would keep the water bug free for pretty much forever, depending on how well UV penetrates water. The cricuit would be easy enough, and the power draw would be minimial when on household, or even 12V.

I can answer this as an expert tomorrow, but I seem to remember 960 nanometers as the UV wavelength in question.

Your mileage may vary.

For storage, I'm relying on tap water hypochlorinated to 100ppm, checking it periodically (currently once a quarter), and re-chlorinating to a minimum of 5 ppm thereafter.

Oh...sorry, caught somelthing in yer post--silicone. Don't use the regular variety. Emits acetic acid as it cures, rusts all kindsa crazy. Use "electronic grade" silicone to ensure an acid-free seal.

> What makes long term stored water go "stale" or unuseable?

From 72 Hour Kit, I gather the main problem is things living in the water. Here's a quote:

Since you're essentially starting with virtually sterile water, what you're mostly concerned with is any bacteria that might be introduced during the filling process, as well as any odd bugs that got through the disinfection treatment and may just not be there in large enough quantities to normally cause a healthy person any problems. You want to make sure they don't multiply and create a problem given the time.

Peak germicidal effect occurs at 254nm (UV-C). A 55-gallon drum seems like a lot of water to purify this way. I mean, the distance from the drum wall to the center of the drum may be too far to penetrate effectively. Even with my Steripen, with its relatively big lamp, you're still instructed to stir it around inside the 16 or 32 oz container to make sure all the water gets sterilized.

A modification to this DIY project would be to create a smaller UV sterilizing tank, maybe even just gallon-sized, which you fill when you actually need to use some water.

Sounds good to me.

At home, even though we are on a public water system, we routinely use a Berkley Water Filter System for all of our drinking water. The water tastes better and we no longer spend money on bottled water, which is the only water, my family would only drink. I figure once I have my backup treated water supply in the drums, if and when needed, we would just pass the water through the Berkley System prior to use.

Pete

Not a bad idea, although it is out of my technical knowledge range. I am sure someone on CPF would know. I do not believe UV in general has much penetrating abilities. I believe most water UV systems pass a narrow stream of water pass the UV light and are sealed to prevent any dust from collecting on the UV tube.

I also know, based upon my lab experience here at Ft. Detrick, that most UV systems in biological hoods, must have the bulb cleaned almost cleaned daily (to be truly effective) with alcohol, since even a thin layer of dust can effective the efficacies of the UV rays in killing organisms. Left over from Ft. Detrick’s biological warfare days, many of the buildings that were converted to cancer research labs, had pass-through areas with UV lights completely surrounding the room, in addition the rooms were painted with an aluminized paint in an attempt to bounce back some of the rays. Most of these have been found to be relatively ineffective and in most areas they have been removed or decommissioned.

Pete

Didn't I read somewhere that to re-oxygenate water, one could simply pour it back and forth several times between two containers? Not practical for large amounts of course, but for drinking a quart at a time or so. Anyone have ideas on that?

Dissolved oxygen in water is a taste issue, not for microbial static/cidal effect. To use nascent oxygen for biocidal effect, one would need an expensive ozone generator. When retrieving drinking water from a large drum, simply sloshing the water from one container to another should suffice.

Pete

you must be right : could be iode instead of oxygen ...

I was (incorrectly ...) remembering the words of a medical professor, explaining why people living in the Vosges area (medium montains range in the north-east of France) were more subject to cretinism : it was due to a lack of something (iode ?) ... in the water...
Other population known (end of 19th century) for a higher percentage of cretinism are people in the Alps area.

These old sayings seem no longer true with modern nutrition.

Well, if the drum isn't more than, say, 90% full, a bouncy move might do the trick.

Although a 55 gallon drum of water on a dolly is a lot like a St Bernard on a leash- who's walking whom?

This is likely due to a lack of dietary intake of iodine, which is richly found in seafood. Once the problem was found to be an iodine deficiency, an effort was made to prevent this disease by iodizing salt. It could be that certain geographic areas of the world, lack sufficient sources of iodine from local diets and the salt is not iodize. It is a very preventable condition with supplementation of one’s diet with iodized salt.

Pete

So does this mean that Water bottles that you buy in the store are good for longer than it syas on the box? If so, is the "expiration" only for taste purposes?

Not necessarily, all bottled water may not be filtered and/or treated and therefore an expiration date may be just that an expiration date. Water, for long-term storage should be purified/treated/filtered, not only to remove organisms, but various chemicals. Bottled water quality can and will often vary considerable from bottler to bottler and even lot to lot. The source of the water will have a lot to do with what chemical and organic materials may be dissolved in the water. Mineral or spring water will by their very nature may have substantial minerals (chemicals) and organics dissolved in the water. These minerals can interfere with the chemical disinfection process of the water, if that is the method the bottler uses for disinfection.

Water, one might purchase from a supermarket where they have a self-serve bottle filler, is likely nothing more then water from the city/town’s municipal water source that travels though a pre-filter, charcoal bed filter and may finally pass through a UV treatment device (for bacterial/viral/fungal). In fact a lot of bottled water is nothing more then municipal water that is passed through a device described above, but on a commercial grade level.

With that all said it is still probably okay to drink water from a sealed water bottle well beyond said expiration date. It is still likely equal to or better then water from a questionable water source. One could always boil or treat/filter the bottled water if in any doubt.

Pete

Unlike tap water, bottled water is relatively lightly regulated. I'm not sure if there is even a uniform definition of "expiration date" when it comes to bottled water.

I think it's safe to drink bottled water well beyond the expiration date. And, if in doubt, just purify it when you use it.

One point that others have raised in the past based on their experience is the durability of the containers long-term. The soft, HDPE jugs don't seem to hold up well over long periods of time, developing pinhole leaks. PET bottles will probably do better than HDPE, but for long-term durability and avoiding surprise leaks, a more heavy-duty water containter may be preferable.

There is a purpose for the expiration date, but they won't tell you this. They want the politically correct people to believe that they have to discard the water after the expiration date so that they will buy more, increasing the company's profits. If the water is clean potable water to begin with, there should be no dangerous organisms in it. If it is kept closed, any microbes there will not have any source of fuel, thus no multiplying. Storage in a opaque container will stop the source of energy that is used by algae type life (light). Water can't decompose like organic chemicals such as drugs can, so it doesn't have an expiration date. I filled my water storage in January, when our tap water is odorless. In the summer, our tap water sometimes smells faintly of swamp or chlorine.
The only thing that may happen to water is plasticizers leaching from the plastic container that it is in. I have water that I stored in a 30gal. opaque food grade drum 3 years ago. I checked it recently & it tastes & looks fine. Don't check it too frequently. Each time that you open it is a chance of possibly contaminating it. There are no chemicals in it other than the chlorine used by the municipal water people, so I will have to use clean food safe containers (not the bucket from the garage).