More on Firearms; a City Bug-Out Scenario.

There are so many survival scenarios from various regions, settings, situations, etc. Let's discuss options for just one scenario.

You and your wife live in the city, any city. An event occurs that forces evacuation (let's say it's a volcano ash cloud). You have preplanned well and know the directions you need to travel and you have areas and meeting-place options along the way. You grab prepacked bug-out-bags that have necessities for you and your wife for 72 hours, (food water and emergency preparedness materials); the loads weighs 50 pounds in two packs. You have the opportunity to toss other items in your vehicle and it too has some car survival necessities.

Because you are well prepared, you are one of the first ones to get on the road but after traveling 30 minutes vehicle gridlock happens and you have to ditch your vehicle (no you don't have a moped or motorcycle <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />). You are in an unfamiliar urban area but you know there are state parks or wooded areas within a 15 mile hike.

What firearm(s) would you tossed in the vehicle and what firearm(s) would you have packed in your BOB?

Shotgun, pistol, ammo for both.

I'm in an unfamiliar urban area, with at least a 15 mile hike between me and wooded areas/parks?

Not so sure I'd leave the relative safety of the vehicle gridlock to be out on foot where I don't know my surroundings.

And there's volcanic ash everywhere -- so eventually the vehicle will probably stop running anyway. But walking around in it for hours upon hours (lets hope there's a couple masks in the bug out kit) isn't great, either. Not to mention the possibility of getting lost.

Plus, a convoy of stopped minivans on the Interstate is likely to attract potential rescuers and attention long before two people hiking through the woods.

Either way you're in a bad spot. I'm not so sure I'd leave the house to begin with. It would depend on how bad the ash situation was. Are we talking a nearby volcanic eruption or just an ash cloud blowing in from elsewhere?

Good scenario! One that could definitely happen here in the NW.

There are many opinions on what the best BO/survival firearm would be . Some would say a 22 , or a shotgun . Others might suggest some sort of military type rifle - AK, AR , SKS etc. My personal choices are a 38/357 revolver and a 38/357 Marlin lever rifle . I also have a 12GA. shotgun but I might leave it behind because the ammo weighs too much . The revolver would be the first thing I grab because I feel it is important that you have something that is concealable. I think the 38/357 is a good all around caliber and fairly common . I also feel that having a common ammo for rifle/carbine and handgun is a good idea .

I would be packing my Colt Combat Elite in 45 ACP, while the GF would be packing a Sig P239 in 40 S&W. Long guns in the vehicle would be a Remington Nylon 66 in .22 LR, a Savage Model 24 .22/20 guage, and a Browning A-Bolt SS in 30.06.

In an urban area, or stuck on the road with lots of other people, I think that the ability to conceal a firearm is important. Sometimes it is good to blend in with the crowd. There is also some tactical surprise to producing a concealed firearm. As important as what firearm is what holster. My choice: HK USP Compact .40 in a well worn shoulder holster, with two extra magazines on the other side (for balance). Backup gun is a Walther PPK .380 with one extra magazine. My lady will have two S&W revolvers, one .357 mangnum and one 5-shot .38 special, both loaded with .38+P 125-grain SJHP, 2 speed loaders (for the six-shot .357) and 2 speed strips (for either gun).

I like the way think Cedfire.

Actually, this scenario came out of my head because I have an ill prepared daughter and her boyfriend living in Portland Oregon. And you are right, you don't necessarily need to bug-out from volcanic ash drop....it just fit my scenario. It could have been a tsunami heading up the Columbia of a dirty bomb somewhere.

I would be carrying a 12 gauge 870 with double 00 shot in a quickly accessible soft guitar case, and a .22 Sig Trailside in the BOB. The .22 ammo would be for food and the shotgun for both protection and food. It's tempting to want to take a .45 too but the weight of the ammo is 4 times that of .22 ammo and a shotgun is a very good self defense weapon.

So let's take this scenario a step further. You and your partner have left your car and you are loaded with emergency preparedness equipment in an unfamiliar urban area that turns out to be, "not the best side of town". There are thousand of people trying to get places, in vehicles, on bikes and by foot. How do you proceed on foot through an area where there may be potential looting and/or theft? Do you travel back streets and alleys or stick to the main streets? What would you do to fit in or to become a chameleon? (I think I just talked myself into bringing my .45 too.)

I recall a bit of 'journalism' about a hypothetical urban bugout. The author decided his most likely scenario would be a riot of black people <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> So he recommended A. putting on blackface cosmetics to blend in ( think Gene Wilder and Richard Pryor) B. acquiring a castoff portable T.V. and hiding a AR7 in the box. His plan was to make like a looter and lay down supressing fire if anybody I.D.ed him. SIGH Why can't I get paid for this stuff <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> My great grandmother survived the San Francisco Earthquake armed with a hatpin. Grandma Hanna was a tough old girl. Greatgrandfather was off with his stolen RIC revolver organising a fire brigade. When the Northridge quake hit I went to my grandmother's home near the epicenter. That very night 2 looters hopped her fence with screwdrivers. I slipped around behind them ( playing army guy among Sycamores your uncle planted in 1936 helps later in life) with a 29" barrelled 7 MM Mauser. Not exactly state of the art, but When they announced the desire for work they did. I had them stacking the collapsed fireplace bricks all night and then gave to the count of 10 to leave the property come daylight. If it goes BANG! and you can aim for center it's enough <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Pardon my ignorance... what's a "speed strip" ?? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Speedstrips made by Bianchi

http://www.bianchi-intl.com/prodimages/580_s.jpg

Westy

Thanx.
Looks like you can load two cartridges at a time. Is that right ?

Yes you can. It's much more effective than the photo of a WW2 french resistance 38 revolver with expedient ammunition. The user secured a quantity of german 9MM Parabellum and peened the rims with a punch to catch the extractor <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

well... I'm not sure ... but maybe that's what's called the "g?nie fran?ais" ...!!! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have heard that the noise from these are quite bad when not wearing muffs/plugs. I have not yet had the cajones to take my muffs off at the range, so I have no first-hand experience. However, I tend to believe that not being deaf after shooting would be an advantage. A .45 should be quieter.

As for me, I would take the XD-9mm pistol for defense, and my M-6 rifle for food. But then again, this is what I happen to have right now. I am not sure I would want to hump my Yugoslavian SKS around.

Not bad. Louder than a 22, but it's not like a 50 cal. Your ears WILL ring for a bit, which isn't a good thing we now know, so keep the plugs in while on the range after you run a cylinder without just to get an idea how loud they are.

If you ever need to use it defensively, you might not even hear it. Adrenaline does funny things to the ears.

I would not abandon my vehicle just because I am in gridlock. We have gridlock getting out of Phoenix every Friday afternoon. It would be nice if you had extra gas with you.

I keep a Glock 27 with +1 magazines in my car at all times. I have a holster pop-riveted to the center console. I can have the Glock in my hand as fast as any on-body draw.

If I was worried I would also take my modified Ruger Mini-30 with several magazines. It has a 1-4x scope, pistol grip stock, and target barrel. I'll dump it for a Kel-Tec as soon as they sell a 6.8 SPC carbine.

I'd have multiple long and hand guns in the same caliber, e.g., ..45CAP, 44mag, .357mag. The group you are with can share ammo and swap arms without confusion.

Me, I'd try to look homeless and crazy. i.e. no money, and nothing of value. Play the part. Keep repeating a phrase, like "Box 3436. I must get there soon!" If someone tries talking to you, just unload (not the weapon!) "I must get the Rubix cube into Post Office box 3436, the world depends on it! I have been sent by the great Roknard, and he has communicated to me the importance of this mission, and has infected me with a contagious disease to ensure that all those who interfere will die a horrible death. Rocknard said that this disease would infect only those who wish to do me harm. If you leave now, you will be safe. Do not let the Curse of Roknard be your undoing". If they still seem interested, uh, maybe they're mentally ill, and you're going to want to move away, and prepare to defend yourself.

This is what I try, you're mileage may vary, and only attempt this if you are properly trained. I have no clue whether it would be successful.

The unfortunate reality is that homeless people, and especially homeless with mental illness are ignored by society. I would expect that they would be ignored in a disaster, no matter the neighborhood. The only problem you would have would be racism. Someone else will have to figure out how the handle that, I don't have a clue.

I am quite afraid to find out where you get this type of training... <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Where else? Hollywood!

...........and you could put your BOB in a garbage bag and that in shopping cart....

I would definitely keep moving, but on the main streets. No back alleys or areas that look like they came from a bad movie.

I like the idea of looking homeless or crazy, but something tells me ripping my ironed jeans and spreading mud on my clean t-shirt isn't going to fool anyone who lives on the streets.

If possible, I might plan a route between police stations and fire stations. At least there would be pockets of safety (hopefully) during the long trek out of town.

And of course the most important part... luck! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Unlike most, I don't have the handgun option but do live in a city where this type of scenario is possible, save for the volcanic ash (we'll call it "generic toxic cloud"). I'd throw the 10/22 and 20-gauge pump in the car with a dry box full of ammo for both.

If I had to abandon the car, I'd put the 20-gauge in pistol grip, 30-inch mode (if it wasn't already) and take 28 shells of #3 buckshot (8 in the tube and 20 in my BOB). I would likely slip the shotgun into a gun sock and strap it to the side of my pack or tuck it inside with only a bit poking out. Though less than ideal for hunting, it would probably be needed more for defensive purposes in the described scenario.

Off the top of my head, some things I think you really need to pay attention to if you're going to try and look homeless. These are things that might give you away:

- Shoes - They should be years old... not new
- Hands - Calused(sp?) and rough is better, if you have delicate hands, cover them with some crappy old work gloves
- Eyes/Face - Most homeless I've seen look "worn", or "tired". A long haired wig and some dirt might help
- Your smell - If you smell like Salon Selectives and Irish Spring, that will give you away faster than anything else.
- Shopping Cart - If it's not old, rusted out, and one wheel held together with shoestrings, then, you don't fit in! I also hear it is hip to have 2! Make sure you fill your cart with things that could be recycled, and things that look like "mementos".

I may make jokes, but that doesn't mean I don't respect them as human beings, in fact, you might actually learn something about survival by talking to someone who is homeless.

Think I just stay with my 40 watt C.P.G.
<>< <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Here in Phoenix our Boy Scout Troop takes a turn at working at a "soup kitchen". It is St. Vincent de Paul Chris Becker Memorial Dinning Room. They feed 7 days a week from 5 to 6 PM. We go and set up tables and serve food. We then clean up when their time is up.

I have truly seen the homeless first hand! They are mostly mildly mentally ill and/or on drugs. Sometimes they smell of sweat and/or urine. They look like a cross section of America as far as race and intelligence. They are mostly clean and do not smell. I suspect we pass homeless people every day and do not realize they are homeless.

I think the most camouflaged person in America is an average middle class white guy. If you don't look grubby are wearing jeans, a polo shirt, tennis shoes and no "bling" you are invisible to other Americans and the police. The homeless pushing a shopping cart or sleeping on a bus stop bench stick out.

I suspect if you look the way you normally do and are not doing something strange that no one will be interested.

Just don't look like an easy target!

I would have some kind of handgun for personal protection. Something 9mm or larger. I personnaly have a .40. A long rifle and a shotgun, maybe even a 20 guage with birdshot.

WIth all due respect ... why did you wait so long?

The only major event I can think of that could get you completely off guard is a major earthquake. And then you probably wont be able to get home, load your BOB, and bug out.

My apologies, but guns are the least of your problems/concerns under these circumstances.

Why did I wait so long? For what?

Possibly, but this topic is like a board game....you have to play by the scenario. And the scenario is about firearms

I've been trying to diplomatically to find a way to say the same thing.

If you say so... chuckle, chuckle.

Troy

The scenario is rarely about firearms. Usually it's about survival, and firearms are just one tool.

And the comment about waiting meant "why did you wait so long to bug out?"

And, yes, I've some experience in several types of disasters. Only an earthquake caused widespread disruption because it was unexpected and very strong.

No, if I'm mobile, that mobility is life. Maybe a sidearm. But being able to scoot is key. Longarms attract too much attention. And I know that I'm not shooting my way out of a mob, that's just the way it is.

If I'm digging in, ie not bugging out, then I dig in deep, and the mark the fields of fire for each position on the family map and get out tbe boer stones at 100 foot distanced.

No firearms.

With a fifteen mile hike ahead, I'd use the pack space for extra water, jackets and food.

Fifteen miles of hiking with full packs on the back of two middaged persons on a hot day -- that's between 8 and 12 hours of hiking. Knowing this we will need water food and protection from the elements.

Ala heinlein, I'd rather move stealthy than bold.

TRO

seems the smartest thing to do would be to go around and avoid the most dangerous areas of the city. i would think gangs would be a much more of a problem than anything else. if you must go through questionable areas i'd say travel at the crack of dawn (around 5:30am). most "crazed out" people will probably be asleep by then and you might be able to slip by with little notice. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> of course if you're going to wear a disguise to not be bothered your best bet might be to paint large sores all over your face and hands, let snot run down your lip and act like you've got a nasty contageous cough.

a .32cal colt hammerless in my back pocket, a colt .45acp behind my belt, a .357mag/.38spcl carbine, & a Navy MK V Mod BO (uses 12ga flares) flare pistol, in a bag

Chris, You must be a retired "Coastie"! Only a Coastie would have such a simple solution to avoid a really potential complicated problem. Avoid paperwork at all costs!!
Semper Paratus!

"Let's discuss options for just one scenario."

In keeping in your scenario, we would stay with the 4x4 Yukon as long as possible, streets be optional. Yards, sidewalks, parks, medians would be used for egress if needed.

Her bag Glock 17, Kel-Tec 9mm folding carbine, uses Glock 17 Mags, Springfield M6 .22/.410
My bag Glock 17, Kel-Tec SU-16C folding 5.56mm carbine, Ruger 10/22 folding stock.
Long guns hidden in our packs, with reasonably fast access.

There is a firearm bag for the vehicle with additional options, situation dependent.

I'd read this post when it was first written and hadn't seen a reason to respond. Now that it's come up again something has occured to me. Most people's responces have either been some type of non-responce (I'd stay at home, or I don't need a gun) or a responce geared towards fighting one's way through rioting, drug crazed looters. What makes people immediately assume that in an emergency lower income areas will turn into war zones? Sure after Katrina a few scared, angry citizens took pot shots at helos and a few were stealing sneakers from Walmart. Mostly after the major disaster had struck and they were stuck in a foul situation with not much to do but fume. But on the whole the responce no matter who you are is to either try to get out of dodge lickety split or try to ride it out as much as possible. I don't think (even in the worst part of town) too many people will be worried about victomizing other people more then trying to save their own skins.

So, my answer to the surface question is my pat responce to almost any not self-defense survival gun question: a light and accurate .22 pistol. It packs light, weapon and ammo. Its easy to shoot. It can take almost any game. It doesn't destroy small game. It is low profile. And it causes anamolously effective wounds compared to other calibers. Not that it is as effective as a .45 ACP against an attacker by any means, but for the size and weight of the weapon it is very effective and much more versatile.

I wouldn't necessarily spend the weight on another weapon, but assuming I'm with someone and they are also carrying, next weapon choice would be a shotgun which can readily be broken down to fit in a pack or packs. Sorry everyone, I love rifles, I'm a decent marksman, but for the weight and space vs. usefulness and versatility the shotgun wins for this situation. The shotgun provides a wide variety of ammo; birdshot, buckshot, slugs, salvo rounds, etc. Ammo would also be distributed between the two packs. The shottie is for when we've set up camp and can take the time to hunt. But, I dont see the need for a reasonably heavy weapon I won't in all probablity need or want. With your specs of fifty pounds between two packs (or was it fifty pounds per pack) the shotgun likely weights 1/5th to 1/10th the overall weight of all the rest of the equipment probably more.

The original question was about what firearms I would carry, so...

As my primary weapon, my Ruger Mini14 (tricked out and tactical) w/ four 30rd magazines. I carry a Ciener .22LR conversion kit in my BOB.

As backup, my Glock Model 22 in .40S&W w/2 extra magazines. I have a Ciener .22LR conversion kit for the Glock in my BOB as well.

The .223/5.56mm will handle anything on the North American continent at reasonable range and with proper shot placement (head shots). Arguably, the .22LR is equally capable. The advantage of the .223 over a .22LR is that stopping power is much greater in "center of mass" shots. The .22LR may kill but unless you can reliable and consistantly make head shots iin high stress situations on moving targets, what you shot may escape or be finished eating you before it dies. (ie; If you shoot me with your .22 and I find out about it, I'll kick your butt.)

The reasons I carry the Glock in .40S&W are much the same as above.

One factor, not mentioned that I've seen, is the fact that a rifle (all scary looking with a flash hider, folding stock and long high-cap magazine) in my hands and a pistol on my hip will make any possible trouble maker in this unfamiliar urban area think at least twice about any confrontations.

Spiritwalker,

Welcome to the forum! I think you'll like it here.

How is the accuracy of your Ruger Mini14? I've heard stories about them having problems. Some are tackdrivers out of the box and others may as well shoot sideways.

Also, how well do your 30rd mags feed? Any problems?

One other question:

Do you have someone watching your back? It seems like you have a good selection of firepower but not all bad guys go for the frontal assualt.<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> One shot from behind and now someone else has your stuff. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Looking forward to hearing more from you.
-Blast

After I got married, I bought a pump shotgun. It occured to me that I should probably have a response to home invaders other than "uh oh". Your home is your castle, but only if you can defend it.

That reminds me once back when I was young and (more) foolish. I picked up a hitchhiker while crossing the country and spent the next two hours equally entertained and terrified as he told me his story. He was on his way to Canada to report to the United Nations that the USA needed to be destroyed with nuclear weapons because Jackyln Smith (of Charlie's Angel's) had activated an access plate which caused the Earth to drop fourteen inches resulting in the death of millions of people.

Thankfully after a hundred miles of this he asked to be dropped off at a truckstop because if he remained in contact with anyone for more than 120 minutes his position was automatically reported to the police who he was running from because he had punched a female officer.

Morale of the story? I have no clue, I just like telling that story.

-Blast

You are right that this is a small percentage of the population. That has to be balanced against the response of that percentage to Katrina and non-emergency situations in the last forty years. Riots in L.A. in the sixties and after the Rodney King trial in the Nineties. The Miami riot of 1980.

I have a mimi 30 and they are a good rifle. The only difference between that and the mimi 14 is the caliber

Ah, different situation. Two responces. The first is that in a natural disaster I can go around or deal with minor trouble much better with a low profile. If I think there will be trouble the .22 can go in my jacket pocket with my hand on it, if anybody confronts me they'll get two bullets through the jacket pocket. Much faster then any draw from a holster and practically invisible. Second, in a strictly riot type emergency with no ancillary disaster I doubt there would be a reason to bug out. I know I can't fight through a riot. The first time I shoot someone everyone in a half mile radius will come down on me like a hammer. So I'd stay inside, shades drawn, black out curtains behind the shades and pretend I'm not home. If any body breaks in to find out if I have anything to steal, they'll get an axe handle to the head nice and quiet. Bugging out into a riot is bugging out into a meat grinder.

For the 22 in the pocket, I'd prefer something a little heavier. There's a 9mm or 380 from Kel-tec that are about the size of a 22.

True there are 9mm and 380 and even .45's (take a look at Glock's Sub-compact pistols) the size of a twenty-two, but one they are louder and therefore draw more attention after the fact and two see arguement one about versatility. For an overall survival firearm I would choose the .22 pistol. Its not a pure self-defense gun. Its not the best hunting gun. Its a Swiss army knife. A swiss army knife has a decent blade and a decent saw, mediocre tweezers. It doesn't do a great job at anything. But it can be passible to decent at lots of things. Now were I in bear country, that's a different story.

When I bought mine in '81 or so it wasn't totally awful, 3-4 inch 5rd groups off a bench at 100 yards with good ammo, but not great either. I've tweaked it some and with the synthetic stock I can keep it pretty much under 2 inches now and as good as 1 1/4 in. with match or handloaded ammo and a scope on my best day. I've read a test report by Massad Ayoob that the recent manufactured Mini14's are shooting 2inch groups out of the box now.



I've had good luck with mine although with several moves and some time in a storage locker I had some rust spots on a couple. Again, I bought them in the early '80s and can't recall from who. I did have one I picked up cheap at a gun show back then that wouldn't feed every 4th or 5th shot so I tossed it. The only other problems I've had with my Mini was caused by some really cheap surplus ammo I had picked up from a guy that must have stored it in his wood shed. That's long gone now but it worked well enough for making bean cans dance.



At least 1 and if things go as planned/prepared 4 or 5 shooters riding herd on the womenfolk and kids. (Before anyone starts screaming SEXIST!, 2 of the shooters are women and they are so good if things look really dangerous, I want them walking point.)

As far as functioning, mine is just as reliable. After close to 2500rds through mine the only problems I've had was with one bad magazine and some cheap ammo. Otherwise the rifle goes bang every time I squeeze the trigger. I've shot it in all kinds of weather, snow and rain and ran a 1000rds through it without cleaning over a two month period with no problems except with my ex-wife and that had nothing to do with the rifle. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

.308 vs .223? No contest there but I'm getting too old and chubby to hump the ammo loadout for an M14/M1A and other gear that I'd want for this scenerio. I can carry more .223s in mags and stripper clips and double taps pretty much negate the stopping power question.

For self defense, I'd prefer something heavier even with the noise penalty. For everything else, you can't beat the 22's range of ammunition choices. Everything from shot shells & sub-sonic rounds to high velocity w/ 40gr. bullets (CCI Velocitor).

In my BOB is a Kel Tec Sub 2k folding rifle that takes Glock 17 mags. It is compact and fits nicely in a backpack or small duffle. On my person would be the Glock 17. A combination of 17rd and 33 rd mags in the BOB that are interchangeable. I only have to carry one caliber and one style of mags. I feel that the 9mm is the "swiss army knife" of calibers. A nice balance of weight and power.