Ammo

This is a controversial topic sometimes, so I will preface this with: This is for those of us who WILL keep a store of ammo, not whether or not we should.

That being said, who keeps a lot of one caliber and who keeps a variety? I've contimplated this and came up with a number of possibilities. Obviously, bug in is less of an issue than bug out.

The first: .22 long rifle. Obviously takes up the least amount of room, is portable in larger quantities, can take small game for subsistence, but MAY be lacking for larger game at distances, or protection at those same distances. Works in long guns and hand guns.

.12 gauge, probably 00 buck. Good for most mid to large game, very good for protection. Takes up a lot of room, and is not very portable. Not much left to small game once you're done. Limited range capability.

.223/30.06/.308/other large caliber. Great for protection, arguments pro and con for larger game. .223 offers some portability in quantity. All have long range performance.

.44mag/.357mag: I have lever action rifles and revolvers in both calibers. This gives me a lot of flexibility, and allows for carrying one caliber to be used in both. Also allows for two people in my group to be armed with one caliber. Range is very limited. Portability is ok, but not great. At this point, this is my last resort, bug out, can only take what's on your back option.

The classic text on survival firearms is still Mel Tappen's book. While Mel didn't survive, his basic ideas did. A simple rule is to have ammunition on hand. Post apocalyptic scenarios of ransacking the local sporting goods store or bartering are at best luck. As an anecdote, my Farrier went home to Idaho to hunt Elk. He somehow forgot his carefully handloaded .30-06 rounds. No problem, it's the most popular round in the USA. Problem #1 came up when 3 rural stores were SOLD OUT. He was told without apology, " you know it's the most popular cartridge." Problem #2 was the idea he could acquire a small supply from another hunter. My farrier was driving a rented car with California plates. He stepped outside the last store to find his taillamps smashed and 'KALIFORNICATORS GO HOME' lipsticked on the windhsield ( Idaho hunters carry lipstick <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ) So much for barter until he met an old high school buddy. Unfortunately, his old friend boasted about smiting a gentile from the Sin State by smashing his taillamps. By the time the local sherrif ( their own bishop) untangled the two every elk in their zone had gone to cover. Meanwhile Dave's jackmormon cousin ( my backup farrier) had borrowed my 8x60S Mauser at the last moment when his new .300 Weatherby Magnum sheared off poorly mounted scope bases. I don't think theres more than 2 boxes of 8x60 in the whole pandhandle. Randy had all of 15 left after a magazine's worth went downrange for practise. He got a nice fat Elk to. There was some brief teasing about marinating the steaks in beer till we gave Dave a nice thick one <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think a .40 Glock 23 and a 6.8 SPC rifle would offer a lot of utility. I have the Glock but I am waiting for Kel-Tec to sell the 6.8 SPC rifle. However 6.8 SPC AR rifles are available now.

It looks like the 6.8 SPC ammo is finally showing up.

diversification is great if you're staying put and have enough space to store stuff, but when you have to get moving it's a different story.

For something on the move I'd go with a semi-auto rifle in .223 and either a Glock 22/23 and a quality aftermarket barrel in 9mm, or a 4in .357mag. You could use .40/357 for carry/use, and 9mm/38sp for practice or use when the others are not avalible. 9mm rounds will fit in a .40 magazine, but will likely not be more than 70-80% reliable. If you use it for practice, you can get really good at clearing malfunctions. Or add a 17/19 magazine to your kit so you have a little more reliability.

.223 is a good all around round. I've taken everything from squirels and rabits to deer with it. But PRACTICE!!! The more you use it, the quicker and more confedent you will get with whatever you decide to use.

I'd maybe even add a small .22lr to the mix for small game that I intend to eat. Probably a bolt action magazine fed rifle. Or even a good pistol/revolver would work if one practiced enough.

just my $0.02

-Jeff

I too own a Glock 23 .40 S&W. Good choice for a CCW. So is the G-21 .45 and the .357 Sig. It's so true that a choice of caliber and firearm, depends on if you are bugging-out or not. Either way, becoming a competent shooter is important.

Regarding bugging out, there are different scenarios. If you are bugging out without a vehicle you need to pack light. My personal preferences would be for a .22 pistol, the Sig (Hammerli) Trailside is light, has a rail for a red-dot or other sight options, breaks down easily (that's a biggy) and is very accurate. Three hundred rounds of .22 weigh less than a box of 50 .40 S&W. So, for a game getter that must be carried on your person along with a BOB, I prefer .22 . For ammo, the CCI Velocitor ammo could easily take down a deer IF you placed the shot correctly (did I mention being a competent shooter is important?) and could be used for self defense as well.

For a true self defense gun? Well, I bought my daughter a 12g Remington 870 express smooth-bore, with extension tube, one in the pipe and 6 on board. The absolutely best double-ot ammo is the Hornady #8624 This ammo has the potential of placing all pellets in a silhouette at 35 yards (!) Unless you cloak such gun somehow, it would be pretty identifiable if carried while walking along with a bug-out bag.

For home security? A Remington 870 for everyone in the house. I also have an AR-15, great gun.... Other's I'm considering include the .40 Keltec that fits Glock mags and the 223 that takes AR mags....too cool.

Anyone who is a beginner handgunner, I would highly recommend getting into some sport type handgunning, like Bullseye. It will you help learn trigger control; IMHO this is the most important part of shooting a handgun. Plus shooting a fun sport. As you get better IDPA (International Defensive Pistol Association) shoots will help you understand tactics.
IDPA

My grandpop once told me they used .22 shells as 'money' during the depression.

Doesn't it really depend on the weapon that you have? I have both a 12 guage and a 22 so I have ammunition stored for both. Why store 20 guage???? Maybe for trade, but I'm more concerned with having enough to hunt and defend myself with.

I have and use regularly:

30-06
.22
12ga

Soon i`ll be adding .223 just because ammo is so cheap you get a lot greater distance, and the stopping power at a greater distance than the .22. (And It wont explode a small animal like a 30-06 will)

NOt to mention very common, and did I mention cheap? By the amo can full <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BTW: Watch Wal-Mart for 12ga I got it by the case/flat there on sale super cheap.

I don't like having too many different loads in too many calibres.

Our pistols are 9mm Parabellum, and we have two loads for them: Glaser Safety Slugs (Blue) while in the house, and PowRBalls for outside the house.

Our rifles all take the same ammo: 7.62x39. We have soft points and FMJ rounds. I buy them in sealed tins from Cheaper Than Dirt. Perfect for long-term storage.

You know, I just don't think I can kill a zombie with a .22
<img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
My reasons have nothing to do with subsistence living: I do not think it is a viable solution in a SHTF situation.

I remember reading that Jeff Cooper recommended everyone should have a 1911, an 12 gauge auto shotgun, a Scout Rifle, and a .22 handgun.

I reload, so rather than keep a large and bulky supply of ammo I keep a large and bulky supply of reloading components <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Seriously, I could get by with 3 kinds of powder (Unique, Alliant 2400, and H4350) and I am presently planning to aquire bullet molds for my .45 ACP, my 30-30/30.06, and .40 S&W. My goal is to never have to buy centerfire ammo again.

I think the same advice applies here as has been given on food storage: "store what you shoot and shoot what you store", but in this case you "shoot what you store" because the only effective ammo is what actually hits your target.

I tend to agree with your list.

I have hunted for about 40 years in the Southeasten US. For staying in place, if I could only own one gun, it would be a 12 guage shotgun. In addition to some 00 Buckshot, I would add lots of #7 1/2 or #8 field loads for small game and some #4 or so heavier loads for intermediate game.

Add a second gun? It would b a .22. For the price of one box (20 rounds) of 30-06, .308 , .270, you can get 500 rounds of .22.

Third gun - centerfire rifle

Of course, this all depends on where you live and what you expect to encounter. Backpacking raw meat in bear country? Bush pilot in Alaska? Boating with great white sharks?

It also depends on the shooter. I have spent a lot of time bird hunting. For me shooting a shotgun comes natural and a .22 rifle is easy to shoot also. I cannot hit the broad side of a barn with a hand gun. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I keep and store a good amount of ammo. Over the years I have had a lot of guns in a lot of cal. I now have a far number of guns but in limited cals. So here is my list:

40 S&W 180 grain HP

30/06 I have hand loads from 110 gr. to 200 gr. (I still believe that the 30/06 is the best long gun cal out there. I know I will get some feedback but nothing else I know is as flexible. With one riffle you can go from mid sized game to moose.)

.223 72gr. MHP

12 gauge: I have stores of ammo from #8 to #00 buck and slugs. (if I had to take just one gun)

I totally agree with your statement about the 30-06 and have been preaching this for years to my hunting pals. Have even converted one to my way of thinking.

Great minds think alike. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I ran across a web sit that advocates a .22lr handgun, even for deer and other large game. I just have a hard time with that. It takes one hell of a shot to kill a deer with a .22. I now that is all the Eskimo's used to use. I also know that a 30-06 is a little big for a rabbit, but I would rather try a head shot on a rabbit than on a bear charging. Just my personal .02.

Most of my emergency plans are for "bugging in," so I don't worry much about ammo portability. Arizona's desert is not highly productive land, so I don't plan to live off of it (I don't want to have to shoot every hunter I see to make sure that I'll have game). I do make sure that my reloading gear works without electricity. That's mostly so I have something to do while waiting for the Return Of The World As We Know it.

Well I have known a few individuals in my time that have taken deer with .22 lr, copper coated hollow point to be exact and they were head shots from treestands at less than 20 yards...on a doe. Still it can be done.

And yes, a 30-06 can really do some damage on a squirrel or rabbit....so I compromise. I carry a 30-06 for deer hunting and should a brave squirrel or rabbit get curious, I pull out my Ruger Mark II and aim for lunch. Rabbit stew is pretty good at hunting camp.

And you are right <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> great minds do think alike.

Great another reason to go by another gun...darn. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Ruger Mark II on the list!!

Forget about Ruger, Browning, S&W and Berretta, the Sig Trailside is 10 times the gun, more accurate, easier to disassemble and light in weight. It also has a 3/8 rail on the barrel for red dot sight. Honest, I've tried all the 22 pistols on the market and none of them come close to the Trialside for survival use. Ammo, CCI Velociters will take a deer with a head shot.

Cool I will have to take a look at it. I already own 4 Sigs awsome guns.

Yep, They're not cheap but they are very good guns. The Sig Trailside is made by Hammerli....you know the Swiss firm that makes guns for Olympic shooters. It is now discontinued as Sig wanted to offer their own .22 (it's nothing like the Trailside) so the price is going up.

If you can find a Trailside 6" model with adjustable sights for under $500, buy it. I have an extra Sig Competition model with anatomical grips, forward weight and box for $675. These too come up for sale once in a while.

Last I checked, CDNN had them for about $300 or so. It was in the catalog about two months ago.

http://www.cdnnsports.com/

Click on "Index" and then "DownloadNewest Catalog".

Of course, you will have to find a transfer dealer and pay shipping. But if you shop around, all of that should still be well under $50.

Rifles should be bolt action .223 or 7.62 Nato., 5 or 10 round magazine. A practiced rifleman should be able to get off 2 aimed rounds in as many seconds. Shotguns should be 12 or 20 gauge, No 7 birdshot. 60 rounds per rifle. 200 round reserve.

I see no reason in particular for bolt actions.
What is the logic behind this?

There are quit a few reasons for bolt actions, a couple I can give you.
1. Accuracy
2. Durability
3. No freeze ups in bad weather

Some of these are becoming smaller issues due to new tech. But they are still there.
It also depends on what the main purpose of the gun is.

BTW the only gun I don't see a reason for is...Well there is non I want them all <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

For a survival situation, IMHO, a semi-auto such as an M1A, is a much better choice than any bolt action gun. I have seen more problems occur with bolt actions than semi-autos that have been standardized and proven over many decades.

Interesting point of view. My current "Urban" survival rifle is a synthetic stocked SKS. But for wilderness survival I'd definately choose my scoped A-Bolt. I'm just a heck of a lot more confident at 300 yards with that than a self-loader. And it will get the job done up close too. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Different strokes.

Yep... It's what your used to I suppose. In Idaho where the brush is thick you're luck to see 100 yards. In Wyoming on the other hand...........

The five pound T/C Contender carbine with a scoped .22lr and .30-30 barrels will do most anything a rifle can do in the lower states. The gun can be carried with the barrels off to make a short package. With the new pointed .30-30 ammo you can reach out past 200 yards on deer.

Good trigger, barrel, and sights = good accuracy! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

>> I have seen more problems occur with bolt actions than semi-autos that have been standardized and proven over many decades <<

I'm not disputing what your experiences have been and would be interested to read specifics on bolt-gun failures you have seen. But regardless:

While I don't have any issue with semi-auto rifles, I'll completely disagree with extending your experiences with problems to the respective genres. Reliable bolt actions have been around for about 120 years, With the exception of one action type (roller locked), at their heart all semi-auto actions chambered for anything more potent than a pistol caliber are, in fact, bolt actions. They just use energy from a fired cartridge to cycle the bolt instead of the user's muscle. If the semi-auto is reliable (which I do not dispute), the bolt action must be even more reliable. Besides the theory, the accumulated empirical data conclusively shows that bolt guns are more reliable.

And detachable magazines, unquestionably, are susceptable to all sorts of mayhem that renders its parent rifle hors de combat. Like last weekend when my buddy's well-maintained M1A had a BAD jam from a dinged mag. (My NM Garand was flawless, as always, but there's a mishap somewhere in its future, no doubt).

There's a place in my safe for both types, but if I had to choose just one... it would depend on why I needed just one.

I just couldn't let the "semi more reliable than bolt" arguement go unchallenged <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Regards,

Tom

Want a nice standardized bolt action - fine - got get an 03 springfield, or a 98k Mauser

Only 103, or 108 years of service behind those designs. Battle proven too <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Uh-oh - you forgot to mention Chris K's fav Lee-Enfield... so standardized that parts are interchangable without armory-level gunsmithing. And Mosen-Nagent, and Arisaka, and... the list goes on. Just about anything from the M93 variants on up to the most recent "modern" bolt guns works for me.

I confess to really liking most anything with a big claw extractor... but most of the others work admirably, too. Although, now that I think about it - the first service rifle issued to me was an M14, and they were annoyingly prone to sending the extractor assembly whipping off the bolt and away into the weeds... much as I love that rifle (and the M1A version).

Yeah, a SMLE will do in a pinch - I want an 03, due to the 30-06 chambering

Yep, Bolt guns work. I think everyone should have a good bolt gun.

Malpaso, you are indeed wise in your choices! They are very realistic and effective. The big question I often ponder is: what would you carry on your person that could: 1. Protect you 2. take small and large game 3. Be low profile enough not to draw adverse attention 4. Efficient enough to allow a decent amount of ammo to be carried along with your other gear? I'm picturing the last straw, on-foot, outta gas and walking to your next new home kinda scenario. Thanks!

My SHTF kit is ready with a S&W .44mag Mountain Gun, with .44 shot shells in a speedloader as backup to the 240gr rounds in the cylinder. That's as all inclusive as I have ever come up with, and seems to address your four points as well.

My personal preferences would be for a .22 pistol, the Sig (Hammerli) Trailside is light, has a rail for a red-dot or other sight options, breaks down easily (that's a biggy) and is very accurate. Three hundred rounds of .22 weigh less than a box of 50 .40 S&W. So, for a game getter that must be carried on your person along with a BOB, I prefer .22 . For ammo, the CCI Velocitor ammo could easily take down a deer IF you placed the shot correctly (did I mention being a competent shooter is important?) and could be used for self defense as well.

Not about BO-weapons:

I'm not very pro-gun, but I think that the HK Mp-5 submachine gun is a good weapon. Is it allowed in the US?

In parts of the US, yes, it is allowed, but only with certain licenses and fees.

does it have to be modifyed somehow? (not able to fire full-auto,etc?)

Semi-auto is allowed in most areas of the country. Full auto is allowed in aprts of the country, but with the afore mentioned fees and permits. Of course that doesn't apply to police and military.

since i am new i have rhumatoid arthritist, i still find things to enjoy even though i cant work in security anymore. i have had a total of 5 different handguns for protection. a bounty hunter by eaa.its was a bad experince smith and wesson model 2214 both of these were .22 cal. a highpoint .45 a rossi 357 snubbie. now i keep a heritage .22lr/22mag
i had my wrist sprained several time with the 45 and a 357 and 9mm all i can shoot is a .22 my new heritage is the best deal yet up here in upper michigan the fishing is good. i just carry it for the critters

Hey UT,
I've got RA too... bordering on severe... just curious, what are your plans if TSHTF and you can't get anti-inflamatories and/or pain killers... the thought scares the bejesus out of me, two days without my med.s, and I'm basicly an invalid... just wondering what somebody in the same boat might be thinking?

Anybody else???

Troy

I've got major high blood pressure, I convinced my physician to give me a back-up 90 day supply. (I normally get 90 day refills) Which I keep in my BOV. I rotate them out and put the "fresh perscription" in my truck and use the "old" batch. I know, before everyone goes off at me (my doctor already did) but the way I look at it 90 day old meds are better than none. So far I haven't seen any reduction in potency but, the potential exists. Anyway If SHTF I can go for 90 days at least.

Yeah, I've gone that route myself (a scrip or two ahead), but if anything is long term, I guess I'll just be out of luck <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

Troy

I'd avoided looking at this thread for a long time, just because I didn't want to get into a flamefest. Glad to see it is good. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I try to keep about 100 rounds per gun on hand, 200 for each of the 22s. I also keep at least a thousand pellets for a .22 air rifle. Much more compact than even .22LR and suitable for the same kind of food out to about 30 feet (which is as far as you are likely to see a squirrel or the like), less to fear about over travel, less meat damage, and it's quiet. If I had money falling out of my backside, I'd have more than that.

I also have small reserves of calibers I don't own. But that is becuase things like .30-30 (which I don't own) are very common, and it is possible that one of the people who could be bugging to me could need it. Heck, if had more money than I knew what to do with, I'd have spare magazines for guns I don't own but are common, like the Barretta 92, for the same reason.

Holy cow u mad man dats wot da SAS use to da life out of terrorist not wot u use to shoot squirrels. Sorry rave over the MP5 is a good weapon but try getting the LA to let you keep 1 in your garage

As long as a MP5 is semi-auto and has a 16" barrel it is legal in MOST (not all of course) states. Some states require magazines that hold no more than 10 rounds of ammunition.

I typically keep 9 loaded 30 round magazines for my AR-15 and 270 rounds extra 5.56x45mm. I keep 5 of my 10 magzines for my Sig P220 and 100rnds of extra .45acp., 200 rounds of 9mm, 1000 rounds of .22LR (it is dirt cheap) and for the 12g I keep 100rnds of #7 birdshot, 25 1oz Slugs, 25 OO buck, and 50 #4 Buck Shoot.

skoolkid: your own version of grammar makes reading your post extremely painful. If you would like to be taken seriously here I would advise you dump the gutter speak.