Water

OK. I always wanted to be one of the first posters in a new forum.

What I see as THE most critical issue?

WATER.

Water sanitation is responsible for saving more lives than anything else.

Number two? Antibiotics.

In Corps School, (many many moons ago) I remember hearing a bit of info that really stood out - WW II was the FIRST time in war more people were lost to actual enemy action than disease.

What is the least amount of water you could store per person per day? My rule has been one gallon but storing that much water for 8 people for 7 days is just too much in a dorm room. (The way these things are built the floor would give out) <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Soo...how much water do I need for just hydration per person per day with little to no activity?

A quart per day is enough, depending on weather and activity.

Following hurricane Wilma I found I was using about a half gallon a day for drinking. Could have easily doubled that. This included coffee, but (and this is a big but! )there was very unseasonably cool weather.

A gallon a day is not far fetched at all. Think creatively for your storage. Use milk crates with 4 full gallons for coffee table legs, etc.

Scott

Holy smokes... 8 gallons x 7 days = 56 gallons at one gallon/person/day.

56 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon = 467 pounds!

Yeah, I could see how that might cause problems. <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

How about just stashing a few one gallon jugs of spring water and relying more on filtration and purification? Are there any reliable sources nearby to draw from? (The package store doesn't count!)

What about long-term filtration?

I have heard that you can make a filter from a long continer, and a lot of sand. Since the subject is long-term, this sounds like a step in the right direction. Any links?

So .25-.5 gallons/person/day is what I am hearing! Cool thanks!

Yeah when I did the numbers it really made me think and that is just for my close friends NOT including myself! Duh me! <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Long term water treatment is not a great option because we are college students and desalinization stuff is expensive. I have thought about using a solar still using 5 gallon buckets and pvc pipe. But you have got me thinking. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anybody here, good enough with the search function, to retrieve and post links to past threads on this same subject ??
IIRC, ParamedicPete posted somethink about this sand filtration technic ...

The strange thing about water is a) it's so essential, yet b) so incredibly cheap and available in a non-emergency situation.

I'm single and have a full-size refrigerator. I buy jugs of water to put in the fridge to take up space (and make things more efficient, enerrgy-wise).

I guess you mean..." in our civilized countries"....
In many other areas of the world, clean/potable water is neither cheap nor available, even in non-emergency situation.
OTOH, you may say in those areas the "normal" situation is an constant emergency one...

500lbs is about the weight of three average people. I don't think storing that amount of water would be a huge problem.

There are some interesting sized containers out there. Water bed anyone? a few 55 gallon drum's with a board over the top and some framing and a few stools could make a descent bar if you have the space. Move off campus and have a nice party.

For a dorm room, you may want to consider cases of bottled water. The ones I keep on hand are 3 gallons of water for the whole case. Two cases per person would cover you for six days. And the cases are easier to spread out around a space so you don't have almost 500 lbs in one spot. Plus bottled water (abeit a large amount for one room) will draw less comment from visitors as opposed to a 55 gallon food grade barrel in the middle of your room! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Unless college food has changed a lot since I was there, I'd make sure to store some eats for the duration too <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Naa... You just put a giant beer label on the side and no one will think it odd. <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

As returned student, I hear you- my dorm creaks when ever I walk down the hall. We got a big warning the first day- if you are a big man, don't cannon ball off the top bunk, or you might end up in the basement!!!!

For water, I'll ditto the mention of cased waterbottles. Invest in an inexpensive hand truck if you can, it will make moving things a lot easier. Pick up some tyvek sheeting- use that under your stashes under your bunks, and you'll be amazed at how well it glides on carpet. Tie some 550 line to the corners closest to the wall, and use those to pull it back under the bunk- just roll up the line and stash it by the wall.

REAL dorm food, not junk food, is for me dig in food. I dont worry about rotating it, not with the food service. :P

If you have the space/conditions/money, a trout pond on a country lot makes a great water solution. Trout are incredibly suceptible to toxins, so they have a canary effect, warning you if your supply is bad, they do well over winter, and the trout double as emergency food. Also, if you pellet feed them, they become 'trained' and a pellet like lure will work every time when the emergency hits. Get a MSR Miox purifier, and you're set.

A trout pond in a dorm room probably takes too much space <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. Try one of these: http://aquaflex.net

.25 or .5 gal/day is bare survival, i.e. avoid death by dehydration. If preparing, go for 1 gal/day or more. Aside from the Aquaflex tanks, 7 gallon aqua-tainers seem to be the favorite from the other forum. They are tough and stackable, so you could put a bunch of them next to a wall. Of course if you have the space for it, a trout pond or swimming pool solves the whole problem.

I'm in an urban area in a small apartment so no trout pond. But I'm a mile or so from the ocean and its infinite sea water. I sometimes take a look at ebay for marine desalinators. They do show up there but are a bit too expensive for me. If the technology gets cheaper or if I win the lotto, I'd think about getting one. $2K or so gets you a unit that can make 100's of gallons per day from 8 amps or so of 12 volt power (i.e. car with jumper cables), enough to take care of several households.

Paul,

Have you considered solar desalination? The old desert survival still does a great job of converting salt water to drinkable water. There are many easy, cheap designs on the internet, just do a search for "solar water distillation" and get some ideas.

-Mark

Um, have you ever TRIED one of those desert stills? They're really not so practical.

IIRC, solar stills in a desert environment/survival scenario are credited to be a waste of time/energy, because they give so little water vs what you spend building them.
Now I would expect such a still to be effective near a pool of water ! You have all the water you want without exhausting yourself.... the only job of the still is to separate salt from water.
+ in this "Bug In" scenario, you can prepare/experiment/test your still well in advance...
it could be more of a solar distillery than a solar still <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So, in these conditions, a solar still might be a good thing to consider...

Actually, if you have a stock of iffy water, they can work.

Assuming that the contaminant doesn't evaporate as well.

They suck for getting water out of rocks, but for desalinating sea water they work great. Salt isn't very volatile. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I built mine for under $25, it has no moving parts, and can be repaired with duct tape.

-Mark

got pictures?

Here is my current setup:


The tub is a 16-gallon pre-formed water pond container from Home Depot ($16), the plastic sheet on top is just some clear vinyl from Walmart ($6), hanging inside to collect the purified water is a funnel from Walmart ($1.98) with tubing attached ($0.99). the tubing comes out the side of the container and is currently plugged with a golf tee.

The water puddled on top is from a recent rain. I've found it doesn't affect the production rate any so I left it there. On a cloudy, cool day it'll only produce 125mL of water. On a sunny, hot day it'll pump out a quart or more. Luckily here in Houston we have plenty of sunny, hot days! Individually this may not seem like much, but several together can produce enough water to get by. The raw materials are cheap and have many uses around the home, so it's not wasted money. When needed, I could have eight ready to go in under an hour. It does work better when set directly on the concrete patio as the absorbed heat keeps it running long into the night, but draining it was harder so i stuck it up on the table as shown.

I have tested it with salt water and it worked fine. There are no metal parts to corrode. I prefer to use water from my three 55-gallon plastic pickle drums that collect rain water. There are also several ponds (and swimming pools) within easy water-hualing range. Raw water sources are not a problem. I just dump 8-10 gallons in the solar-still, seal the vinyl top with bungie cords and forget about it until the next morning.

-Mark

Yeah, I've seen some stills like that but more permanent, basically a wooden frame lined with black RTV covered with a big sheet of glass like a shower door. Those can make up to a gallon a day. An RO desalinator is still a lot more attractive: portable, much faster, and doesn't depend on sunlight.

Nicely done Blast. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Is the funnel both the collection and the storage vessel for the fresh water? Is the tube connected directly to the funnel? If so, how do you keep the funnel in an upright position?

Or is the funnel sitting in something like a quart jar with the tube inserted in the jar?

The funnel is used for both collection and storage. This funnel is about ten inches across and holds quite a bit of water. I attached the plastic tubing to the bottom of the funnel with silicone glue then ran the tube out the side of the tub through a hole (also sealed with silicone glue). The tube is left raised higher than the funnel to prevent siphoning until I'm ready to drain it. When I want water I yank out the golf tee from the end of the tube and drain the water into a bottle.

The funnel hangs inside the tub by three strings. I can adjust the strings from outside the tub to align the funnel after placement of the vinyl sheet.

I tried smaller funnels in earlier versions but as the water droplets joined up and ran down the plastic often they'd get heavy enough to drop before reaching the center point. Using the larger funnel allowed me to collect water from a larger zone.

This wouldn't work well in a bugout situation, but if you are hunkered down they are great. You can make them out of any container or even a hole in the ground lined with plastic. It's cheap, easy, and incredibly low-tech.

-Mark

Assuming you have a source of water how would you make it potable? If you have propane you might not want to use it to boil water to make it potable. You might want to conserve it for cooking.

How about something like Polar Pure?

you mean this one: http://www.cawst.org/technology/watertreatment/filtration-biosand.php

some other stuff:
http://ceemeng.mit.edu/~water/ceramic_tech.htm
http://almashriq.hiof.no/lebanon/600/610/614/solar-water/unesco/35-46.html

i really don't understand why so many people rely one the MSR Miox, it need batteries and salt to work. The testing strips are expensive. Aqua Mira is almost the same stuff in liquid from, but doesn't need batteries.

Sorry I've been gone so long.

PaulR is correct: "25 or .5 gal/day is bare survival, i.e. avoid death by dehydration. If preparing, go for 1 gal/day or more."

And that is in a temperate climate with very LIMITED activity.

August in the most of the US with any activity involved, 1 gal a day won't be enough.

Nothing in your body works correctly without water.

Dehydration is also underrated in the winter, since people seem to feel less need to drink.

Feeling "thirsty" is not a good way to judge hydration, either. Other than keeping urine clear with enough water intake, pinching the skin on the back of the hand and seeing how fast it returns (less than a second) will also give you an indicator.

Chapped lips are also a sign of dehydration, along with cramps, headaches, etc.

I recommend a read of Cody Lundin's bok 98 point six - he really covers it well.

I can remember humping (ok, route marching) in the Asian jungles. Juice and water with breakfast, 4 quarts before lunch. Refill at lunch. 4 Quarts by dinner. Head on in. Drink tea, water, etc until about 8 pm - Urinate the second time for the day...

Anythine with caffene is a NEGATIVE not a positive. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Filters are not reliabe for heavy metals, solvents, etc.

Solar stills ... Not. Now putting a bag around vegetation can often work.

Distillaton (with proper equipment andprocedures) is probably the most safe and reliable method of purification.

Chlorine is great for "bio" decontamination, HOWEVER, chlorine bleach needs to be fresh - it has a fairly short shelf life, believe it or not. (IIRC it turns into ...salt water..."

Some cysts and spores are just darned hard to kill.

> PaulR is correct: "25 or .5 gal/day is bare survival, i.e. avoid death by dehydration. If preparing, go for
> 1 gal/day or more."
>
> And that is in a temperate climate with very LIMITED activity.

My usual consumption is about 1l per day. I have a glass of juice in the morning, some milk on cereal for breakfast, 3 cups of coffee through the day, and that's about it - 200ml each adds up to 1l, which I think is just over 2 US pints.Some days I might have an extra glass, or use some more water for cooking, but 4 pints a day would be ample. This is in the UK climate doing my usual desk job. I appreciate much of the US is sunnier, and if you are wielding a chainsaw after a hurricane you will be exerting more, so your milage can vary.


> Dehydration is also underrated in the winter, since people seem to feel less need to drink.

Agreed. As I understand it, when it's cold, you need to generate more heat internally to keep warm, and that metabolism uses water (and food).


> Anythine with caffene is a NEGATIVE not a positive. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Does the smiley mean you know that isn't true? People who drink a lot of coffee get very good at extracting water from it. Some people have tea or coffee as the only fluids they drink. We get a lot of our water from food, too. (So if you store dried food, rice etc, you need to increase your water budget accordingly.)

There are a lot of myths about water. Some health fanatics drink far more than they need, and the body passes it harmlessly, so they can keep doing it.

has anyone mentioned UV/heat purification with 1or 2 liter plastic soda bottles? i suppose this would work only in sunny areas. apparently you fill the bottles with pond water (or some other relatvely clear but unpure water) and leave them on the roof of your house in direct sunlight for at least 6 hours to kill all the pathogens. i haven't tried this yet but apparently its a simple technique used quite often in many african regions.

you mean this:
http://almashriq.hiof.no/lebanon/600/610/614/solar-water/unesco/35-46.html

exactly. thanks for the website, very detailed. here's another one i found.
http://www.sodis.ch/Text2002/T-Howdoesitwork.htm

...Feels kindsa iffy -- use cheap bleach instead.

Here is some first hand experience with using a secondary source of water to flush the toilet. Our toilet water tank cracked and we could not get to Home Depot until the weekend. We were stuck flushing the toilet by pouring water in the bowl.

The two insights I came away with are: you need a big container to pour water so it will flush and a tub full of water is only going to be good for about 20 flushes.

I think if we are in a shelter-in-place situation we will use a bucket toilet with a plastic bag liner and kitty liter. The water would be wasted for flushing the toilet. If you plan to use tub water make sure you have a container that is big enough to cause a flush.

Craig,
I wouldn't waste fuel on water purification. A wood fire and a decent sized pot, can give you bacteria free water. 20 minutes of a rolling boil will bring to murkiest water to safe dinking status. let it set and the sediment (most of it ) will settle after boiling.

even if you're staying home there should be enough fuel around to boil water for several days.

Here is an interesting article that could prove useful to someone... if you need extra water in times of emergencies... however, be advised that this is something you would have to consider carefully if you live in town..... and research your water tables carefully <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

your own water source