Hurricane Sandy & Urban Survival

I decided to start a thread in this room because I didn't see one. Many of the threads in this urban survival room discuss urban survival in theory. Well, here we have an actual example in real life. This photo from the streets of NYC after Hurricane Sandy says so many things about urban survival without uttering a word.

@ireckon

Great idea. It would be neat to see a thread devoted to pictures only (no commentary) as the saying goes, "A picture paints a thousand words."

Being disconnected from Matrix can be very unsettling. I have a horrible feeling from the news reports I have seen that the situation could be become extremely dire as there are still millions in New York without access to electrical grid and even running water services. I suspect that the next 48-72hrs could be a turning point as the emergency response clock is now into day 2. There are even now reports of more Hospitals such as Bellevue Hospital Centre being evacuated within New York, which were previously using backup generators, which would suggest a lack of fuel which is unable to make its way into the city, although the news report is suggesting ongoing flooding where the generators are located in the hospital basement. If Diesel fuel has become difficult to procure then food distribution through commercial business could become a serious issue in the next few days if the normal everyday supply chain has been so severely affected as folks begin to emerge in an attempt to restock.

Is the electronic food stamp system down in these affected areas i.e. access to food may become restricted to those people without access to cash? Electronic ATMs within wide areas of the city and surrounding suburbs might be unavailable due to the power grid/comms issues (which I suspect may take weeks to rectify - again no damage assessments and repair timescales are forthcoming even 2 days in) if communications are disrupted to the point of this photograph. Even stored water, batteries for flashlights (quite critical for security in large tower blocks etc), candles and other consumables will now start to begin to run low 48hrs into this emergency.

This is actually a very worrying photo because it shows many aspects of the unprepared and the ability to assess the ongoing situation i.e. Situational awareness.

I don't want to yet compare this to a Katrina New Orleans type situation, but if things start going south then the New York area situation could be on an order of magnitude scale larger disaster as New Orleans was essentially evacuated before the storm unlike New York (essentially an impossible logistic). I really hope I am wrong and that normal commerce (Money, food and Liquid fuel distribution), grid electricity and communications/electronic entertainment (the Matrix) can be returned before Tuesday, November 6th.

Wonder if those clowns know what is probably in that flood water?? Ick.

I have also just checked the weather outlook for the next week for the New York area with regard to temperatures as well. The temperature will rarely get above 12-14 degrees Celsius, with a low of 3 degrees overnight this Saturday. These temperatures could easily begin to see cold related injuries and deaths as well especially for the elderly. 8 degrees difference from a comfortable temperature might not sound like much but day after day gets old very quickly even for the those in their 20-40s even if properly fed and hydrated.

What about voting Tuesday?

I am currently working in my county election office (California), recruiting and training poll workers. I have been doing this for the past several years and I have a pretty good idea of the effort required by a large number of hard working people to administer an election. The challenges faced by election workers on the east coast are absolutely staggering.

I agree, a big city is not a good place to be in the event of a disaster. Too high a concentration of people who unfortunately are clueless, not prepared, and therefore freaked out, which can lead to dangerous behavior. The situation in NY/NJ is already bad enough, and appears likely to get worse before it gets better due to a combination of the above and the fact that resources are running out. I have a friend whose sister and her fiance live in Hoboken and apparently they are stuck in their building with four feet of water outside. There are shortages of gas, food and water and I also just heard that more hospitals in NYC are having to evacuate due to losing backup power (flooding affecting systems, running out of fuel for generators). As someone who works in a hospital, that really hits home for me--it's hard to imagine having to get critically ill/non-ambulatory/confused/etc patients out of a hospital quickly, especially a large high-rise one like those involved (it'd be hard enough at my little 2-story community hospital). Not to mention, where are they going to find beds for all those patients?

A few more.

Bingo. Every hurricane I can remember there have been hospitals that had generators in the basement, and every time everyone clucks at how dumb that was, and with the next hurricane it happens again. The operating license system may have to be changed to stop this.


It's not anywhere close to that.


USNS Comfort

Teslinhiker, can you indicate the location? Thanks

News reports indicate that NYU had their generators on the roof, and they evacuated at least one day before Bellvue. So location doesn't matter that much.

In addition to sewage in the flood waters, don't forget that wildlife gets swept inshore w/ the current. Can you imagine trudging to the gas station and a shark or jellyfish brushes past you?

Re: voting. Can't be changed w/o Congress passing a new law, which we know probably won't happen. However, apprarently there's some flexibility in how soon the state has to appoint their electoral college voters. I doubt it's going to ultimately matter as much as we think. A lot of people will have to go to new voter locations, but I have a feeling there's still going to be paper ballots available. Maybe, just maybe, the news channels won't tell everyone that the election is won/lost by 6pm that day.

As for the Comfort, don't count on it. It's big, unmanned, and a converted oil tanker, with only space for 1 helo. The Navy is sending 3 LHA/LHD's right now - they have room for possibly hundreds to thousands of patients, have a (small) medical staff that can be augmented quickly, and the top deck IS the landing pad.

I've been in the medical area of an LHA; it's big, right below the flight deck, and designed for both daily sick call and combat medicine. Three of those will be nowhere close to the capacity of a major city hospital, but it does give you three ER's, three great flight decks which can greatly facilitate moving patients to other facilities, and three bases for logistics while Mayor Bloomberg's staff figures out what to do next. Did I mention that they have outstanding communications capability?

I see these three big decks being used as logistics bases to get NYC's critical infrastructure back in order. Reliable communications, electricity, fuel, and air, sea and land logistics. Besides the flight deck, they have a floodable well deck for boats to move items like trucks.

It will be interesting to see how they are used.

Thankfully my local hospital doesn't have to rely on backup generators, it has its own power station house, which apparently took over 10 years to construct before the main hospital was built.

Ironically, this hurricane may bring out more voters. It's like when you tell somebody they can't do something, often the person who would otherwise sit on the couch gets pissed and wants to do it more than ever. However, I can imagine a situation where people who are ill or disabled have an unusually difficult time getting to the polls. We'll see. Anyway, I voted over a week ago through the mail. I will be voting absentee forever.

When the plan isn't tested anything can go wrong. A hospital near Clear Lake City TX was carefully constructed with ER and surgery etc on the 2nd floor, with nothing needed for emergency operations below. And with the first tropical storm they learned that the elevators all had their control boxes in the basement and underwater.


.. and 1,000 beds, a dozen operating rooms, equipment & stores kept ready for deployment and a staff/crew that is supposedly kept on 5-day call-up status.

I don't know where it is, or if the crew was recalled.

And I bet Comfort is *far* cheaper to keep in NYC than whatever combination of warships they're sending.

New Jersey and New York.

" Every hurricane I can remember there have been hospitals that had generators in the basement, and every time everyone clucks at how dumb that was"
When I entered Clinical Perfusion school at Texas Heart Institute in 1984 (learning to operate the heart-lung bypass pump for open-heart surgery), the program director told us a story how, in 1961, he was participating in an emergency open heart procedure during Hurricane Carla. When the power failed the emergency generators in the basement started. when the basement filled with rain the generators failed and he finished the case using a little hand crank to keep the patient perfused and alive. This is not a new situation.

One thing the LHA/LHD ships have is reliable power.

Piers Morgan was ranting on and on about the hospital losing power,comparing it to The JPMORGAN building (was that the one?) that had blazing lights.

Its one thing to keep lights on there,try powering a hospital,and not all hospital circuits are powered by backup,only the red plugs.

Finally,hosps are on life support as far as money goes,JPM is not,by a long shot. They dont have the money to upgrade infrastructure,much as a lot of the Country has infrastructure repairs needed but no money.

Here is a guy who had some Katrina experiences,some good things in there....Things I hadnt given enough thought to.

http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2008/08/lessons-learned-from-hurricanes-katrina.html

During survival situations like this, it's important for an American citizen to have the mic that Piers Morgan now has. I personally would not feel comfortable being on national TV constantly complaining about a country of which I am not a citizen. Apparently, Piers Morgan has no problem with it, pretty arrogant. Why doesn't he worry about trying to solve the problems in the country of his citizenship? Or take a more humble tone when you're a guest here. He just complains all the time about America without a sincere attempt to solve anything or help anybody. Why is he even on my TV? Is it his official sounding British accent? Why don't the producers put an American in his spot?

Please don't send him back! Could you not just leave him in the middle of the Atlantic in a rowing boat along with that other fellow Quest.

That right there once again confirms my plan to barter electrons makes sense.
-Blast

Regarding generators for hospitals and other critical facilities, placing these at high level rather than in a basement is clearly more sensible in case of flooding, but is by no means a cure all.
My work involves the servicing and testing of generators, and assisting in enquiries after they have failed to function.

IME, generators in large buildings seldom work as intended/as expected. The most common problems seem to be be

Defective or discharged starter batteries.
Lack of ventilation resulting in overheating.
Generator starts but soon stops or breaks due to overloading.
Engine starts but no power supplied to building due to defective, mis-applied, or mis-understood changeover switchgear.
Runs out of fuel, the tank being sized for only a few hours operation, and then not even kept full.
Runs out of lubricating oil, no one having realised that that this needs topping up on a long run.
Or finaly, it all works fine, but someone in charge sends everyone home because they feel that for example powering only 25% of the lighting is unsafe.

My experiences are in the UK, but I suspect that circumstances are broadly similar elswhere.

Not to get into too big a pissing match.

The Comfort is actually operated by civilians (Military Sealift Command); the medical aspect is staffed by (mainly) military - sometimes there are civilians that come along. So, at least regarding cost, there are some other factors there.

The military ships you at least have all the people already on them, as opposed to calling them up and draining other resources. Pull on a couple of Fleet Surgical Teams to augment, and away you go.

The way the Comfort (and I assume the Mercy) operate is much more a surgical/acute care business. Very few of those patients get kept more than a few days. It is NOT staffed for long term care, though obviously this can be augmented. Last I heard it was in Baltimore, so the staff would have to get there before going underway. Wikipedia lists 1000 beds, which includes OR and ICU beds.

The LHA's, also, have potentially thousands of beds. Their job is to transport 2000 Marines around the world - basically a floating hotel/air wing. They have several OR's, an ICU, a helo deck AND a well deck (so hovercraft, aka LCAC's, can be used to transport). They're overall much newer than the Comfort. In many respects, a converted old LHA or LHD should replace the Comfort and Mercy.

http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/usnscomfort/Pages/default.aspx

http://www.wasp.navy.mil/

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2012/10/navy-3-ships-sandy-hurricane-103112w/

Now, that being said, from a P.R. point of view, a bit white ship with a red cross looks better than three haze-gray's.

Exactly. Why don't they replace him with another mindless hot chick like all the announcers on CNN and Fox?
Honestly, I think Piers is payback for exporting the Kardashians and Jersey Shore to the rest of the world.

Video of lower Manhattan last night:
(From the NYT)

http://www.news24.com/Multimedia/World/NY-still-in-darkness-20121102

So glad I don't live in a high rise building with non-working elevators...

given the voting pattern in NYS, it probably won't make much difference in who the state's electoral votes go to.

But, God works in mysterious ways.

In addition to the lines for gas in NYC, there is also a line for...the latest iPad.

http://www.fastcompany.com/3002668/manha...source=facebook

http://mashable.com/2012/10/29/fake-hurricane-sandy-photos/

There are some fake photos floating around. The pic in the original post came from a friend's camera.

Something else to consider: In densely populated areas, that 3 day supply of food and water is not going to cut it. The shear number of people are going to overwhelm any relief efforts and surviving infrastructure.

http://news.yahoo.com/exasperation-builds-day-3-storm-stricken-nyc-202314418.html

How long should do you plan to be sitting pretty for?

That's a tough one to answer in an urban environment. Bugging out requires some preparation. Even getting down the stairs in a high rise could be a huge challenge for the elderly. A supply of cash is also a prerequisite for an urban/city bugout even if you have some where to go!

http://www.salon.com/2012/11/01/food_stamps_cant_buy_groceries_in_sandy_power_out/

News reports are indicating fuel shortages and very long queues of between 6-10 hrs wait times and even portable generators changing hand for $12,000

http://news.sky.com/story/1006072/sandy-fuel-crisis-grows-on-us-east-coast

Our plan is for at least 2 weeks, but we're realistically ready for over a month. (I wanted more convenience foods this week, but we would have managed nicely without.)

I'd like a better home heating (room heating) solution though. We're currently dependant on clothes, blankets, chem hand warmers, drink, food and, of course, body heat, Candles and oil lamps will add a lkttle warmth bit we're not depending on them. We did get an old coleman propane heater at a yard sale in the summe but haven't checked it or researched at all yet, so it's useless for the moment.

The pictures of people crowding around any available power to charge their phones made me realize that this is not something I really thought too much of.

Prior planning was that I would be able to recharge our phone (same brand and models) from our battery booster/power pack or the deep cycle battery if needed...provided that we were at home. The other plan was to charge from the vehicle 12 volt system but that would also depend on being in or staying with the vehicle.

The other scenario not thought about, was what happen if we had to ever leave on foot and not have a source to re-charge the phones along the way to wherever we may headed.

To that end, I just ordered 2 new spare phone batteries and a separate charger from Ebay which for the $40.00 total is IMO, money well spent.

I also stopped at the store on the way home today and also picked up another 4 slot AA/AAA battery charger. Now with 2 chargers, it will much easier to manage the 3-4 month charging rotation on the 40 or so AA Eneloops we have on hand.

It's the same here as in Britain, in other words, a lack of continuous Preventative Maintenance and Inspection.

Very good point. The challenge for many people living in big cities, though, when it comes to keeping enough supplies on hand is storage space (more precisely, the lack thereof). I would still think it is realistic to have about a week's worth, but even that may not be enough in many cases (this one being a likely example). Just another reason why densely populated areas are not the best places to be when disaster strikes...

If its a catalytic heater be careful,if it gets dirty they throw out a lot of CO.Got one here from a garage sale,worthless polluting monster.

Something I read that was interesting was do no let them evac you without your entire family unit , evac at all is another issue,seems bugging in vrs letting the feds take care of you is vastly preferred if you are able.

Families got separated by states during Katrina and the rescue response was good luck,travel to em on your dime.....which is what a lot of folks didnt have,funds to travel on.

Even if you have a lot in Bank,if its local and underwater....no money,argument for Big Bank (Not for me) and another for having a credit card or 2,good when bugged out.

Really wouldnt hurt to have more cash on hand,but like my wallet,someone uses it to save a bank trip and it never stays put here.Very frustrating.

for another forum, I switched into school teacher mode and took some pics of my "essential" 72hour hurricane supplies...

water... (2) 6 gal Coleman water containers, Sawyer .1micron filter with 5 gal kit, Clorox (1/2 tsp to filtered 5 gal)



for communications in addition to charged cell phone and 12v/120v/solar chargers.. Midland 300W (SAME), Grundig FR200 with hand crank), non electric land line phone, digital portable TV



for cooking in addition to a 2 burner Coleman propane camp stove and propane tail gate stove... a single burner propane stove, Swiss Ranger stove with Sterno, tommy cooker with heat tabs, Trangia alcohol stove with denatured alcohol, DIY alcohol stove on 70% isopropyl



lighting... large fount Dietz lantern, Coleman High Tech LED lantern, long burn candle,Black Diamond LED headlamp, Gerber Infinity task light, Fenix E21 light ...all lights are AA driven LEDs



for heating... (2) propane catalytic space heaters, (2) bulk propane tank mount radiant heaters, adapter for 1# bottles



for the typical tropical hot weather... D cell tent fan adapted to model airplane collet hub and propeller, 12v tent fan

New York area CDC advisory on the accuweather.com website;

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/new-york-ny/10017/weather-warnings/349727

Nice set up, Les.

Im interested in hearing how the non coastal folks are doing,the news Ive seen is still focused on the coast.

Nice Les,very nice.

Oh,the coleman catalytic heater (have one) Les,load up on canisters of fuel,it works well but short run times,forget what they are,get extras anyhow next time you shop.It is a good little heater IMO.

Edit-And this? Plugs right into that 5 gal propane tank,did that for a long time as a starving student.

Oops,missed your adapters...see you got that covered too,WELL DONE!!
-----------------------


Coleman High-Pressure Propane Hose and Adapter
by Coleman

Price: $19.88 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. Details
You Save: $7.11 (26%)
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In Stock.

Local radio reporting death toll going up....quote..."Bodies floating in water"

So sad.

More reports of 'where are the rescuers'? Guess its pretty bad out there.Reports Red Cross has arrived into some areas,but I dont get it,isnt that pretty good response times for what is involved?

Prayers sent for all involved.

Hi folks. Just a quick check in from NJ. My family is fine, power was just restored tonight, and we were able to make due with our preps and a little help in between. Being inland and higher elevation saved us from the worst, but still plenty of wind damage, downed trees and wires. The one thing I had not counted on or adequately planned for was interruption of the fuel supply. The fuel supply I had stocked-up went quickly between the generator, vehicle and sharing with friends and neighbors, and even under ideal times one cannot simply load up a 55 gallon drum and drive to the local gas station to refill. Also, once again, I found myself under-supplied for propane and without a generator, but that's all been resolved.

Some things that might not have made mainstream news:

* Over 80% of the residents of NJ were without power
* Business and government buildings that have power have setup charging stations for phones and laptops
* Phone, internet and cable TV was out in many areas
* Cell phone service, particularly from AT&T, has been unreliable in most of the region due to overloading and damaged towers.
* All 3 oil refineries AND the major gas/diesel pipeline from the Gulf to northern NJ were shutdown causing major fuel shortages north of I-195.
* The average wait time for gas is 2 hours with a 1 vehicle/2 can limit.
* Fights and even small riots have occurred at many gas stations over people trying to cut in line or not get as much fuel as they wanted.
* Police have been posted at all gas stations and rationing is in effect throughout NNJ.
* Generators and 5-gallon gas cans are selling for as much as 4X their value on Craigslist and on the street. And they are selling.
* Much of the NJ coastline from Atlantic City up to Sandy Hook has been decimated.
* Boats and houses were pushed as much as a mile inland and deposited in the middle of highways.
* Some barrier islands were nearly scrubbed clean of houses.
* Entire communities were burned to their foundations by fires from ruptured natural gas lines
* A new inlet was formed in Mantoloking, NJ
* Storm surge up the Hackensack River breached the containment berm flooding the towns of Moonachie and Little Ferry
* Thousands of families will need to find new homes, at least temporarily. It is likely that some will not be able to rebuild because of permanent geographical changes to the shoreline and barrier islands.
* Perishable and frozen foods are scarce, as well as the typical French Toast staples, diapers, baby formula, etc...
* Looting is occurring in many of the devastated areas. Looters have actually been going into evacuation zones in boats to avoid roadblocks and patrols.
* Many towns have implemented a strict 6PM curfew
* FEMA and Red Cross response has not reached all of the heavily hit areas, particularly in the central coast areas. Our Jeep club just did a relief run delivering several trailer loads of fuel, water, clothing and food, and at one stop we were the first outsiders to offer any assistance.
* Military vehicles will be used as polling places on election day where normal polling centers are unusable.
* I found nothing to substantiate the reports of "bodies floating in the water." Typical causes of death are impact by falling trees, contact with live, downed wires, carbon monoxide poisoning and traffic accidents. There is one isolated report of two young children being swept away in storm surge after leaving a disabled vehicle.

Things are starting to improve, at least inland from the coast. One of the smaller refineries has restarted and about 1/3 of the pipeline has resumed flow. Tankers of fuel are starting to arrive from out of state. Truckloads of generators, gas cans, water, propane, etc are making their appearance. And the outpouring of assistance from other parts of the country is making its way slowly to the people in need. But for folks on the coast, it is going to take more than a generator and a warm jacket to recover.

I'll post up more when I can. For now I'm going to take a long, hot shower, change into some clean clothes and try to get some sleep before heading out on another relief run tomorrow.

[quote=spuds]

More reports of 'where are the rescuers'? Guess its pretty bad out there.Reports Red Cross has arrived into some areas,but I dont get it,isnt that pretty good response times for what is involved?

[quote]

I feel badly for thr people who are affected, especially the elderly. I understand that many people didn't have many options. OTOH, many people wouldn't even consider a story like Martin's, which I'm sure is only one of many stories just like it, nevermind the logisitics of a city-wide rescue operation.

When they say "3 days MINIMUM but you'd better prepare for up to two weeks because that's more realistic", there's a reason for it. Of course, cancelling a marathon at the last minute doesn't help their perception of being forgotten.

Glad you guys are doing ok. Mark.

Martin, hope you and your son are feeling better soon.

Thanks for all you both do to help your communities. You're very inspiring and I'm sure you don't get near the thanks you deserve.

Mark,thank you for some real news,the media stuff just isnt doing it at all.

Glad you are safe.

My son has just arrived in NJ for the cleanup from Texas,he works for ServePro and was sent there,they clean up after disasters large and small.DIL called and said they cant find a hotel (Go figure),hope they packed well and gassed up first.Reckon they can sleep in the box truck.

Thanks for the detailed report.

Another issue which could possibly create absolute havoc is burst pipes. People in power outage areas may not get a heads up for the expected sub zero temperatures. I hope folks know to drain their water pipes including water circulating central heating systems -(even though they don't have any heat). This will make life an even longer ordeal when folks discover that there central heating radiators don't come back on after springing a leak when electrical power is eventually restored.

When the power comes back on especially in large housing/apartment complexes when the elderly folks that have passed away during the cold spell have not drained their plumbing, could create havoc for the rest of their neighbours.

In reading up on the aftermath -- 1 mil still without power -- I think back to how simple it would have been to have 20 gals in water in buckets...rather can carry water up 8 flights everyday. Thats the Prep part of preparedness, I guess.

As a general rule, I agree. An once of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

From what I understand though, many people, in NY in particular, simply don't have the space. In a city where 500 sq.ft apartments sound positively huge, they need to be very creative when it comes to storing supplies. Use the space under the bed, etc.

Another consideration is that a 20 gallon bucket of water is heavy. I believe a gallon weighs a little over 8 pounds. Some people simply can't lift that much. Again, they need to be creative. Use smaller containers or a hose to fill those buckets, etc.

Here is a Wall Street Journal article of some creative people in the storm:

McGyvers born in the Superstorm

You should not need a login for this article.

Even if someone duct taped the drain and filled the tub-- thats 3-4 days of fresh water right there..But you have to do that before you loose power.

Im not impressed,more like appalled.

If I was so dependent on a cell phone I'd at LEAST have a car adapter to charge with,not to mention a small solar charger.

Talk about prepared for nothing,wow! "I see dead people" and Im not kidding,these folks are in bad shape for a serious event.Say hello to FEMA at the stadium,sheesh!!

Seems many folks need a phone more than alcohol,the old trade standby.
I think it was Blast who said he's going to sell electrons when the tipping point is reached.Thats seriously a good idea.

Spuds Edison....I like it!

let's see... at a $1 a cell phone charge, one of these would have paid for itself in about 2 hours

http://www.tractorsupply.com/sportsman-trade-2000-watt-portable-gasoline-generator-4458506

+1. Thanks for the article.

After the initial shock wears off, people begin to form ad hoc communities based on mutual need and benefit. I'll bet this is happening all over the place, but it isn't as newsworthy as the dark side so we hear little about it.

Im not impressed,more like appalled.

If I was so dependent on a cell phone I'd at LEAST have a car adapter to charge with,not to mention a small solar charger.

Talk about prepared for nothing,wow! "I see dead people" and Im not kidding,these folks are in bad shape for a serious event.Say hello to FEMA at the stadium,sheesh!!

Seems many folks need a phone more than alcohol,the old trade standby.
I think it was Blast who said he's going to sell electrons when the tipping point is reached.Thats seriously a good idea.

Spuds Edison....I like it!

[/quote]
First of all, you shouldn't fault people for wanting to inform family that they are OK. Second, the focus of the article was on certain actions of individuals which overcame problems that they were facing. There are many uses for electricity, and making a bicycle generator is exactly the type of thinking that this site encourages. However, the article did highlight some individuals who were prepared and found creative solutions to their immediate problems. One individual was fairly courageous. This was the point of the article.

Yes, most of the people in the area were not prepared at all, and many still chose to remain, shame on them. Especially the ones who appeared in the news media screaming and blaming the government for not getting to them sooner or preventing the problem. Very few people think much about preparation for emergencies, much less catastrophic events. This is no longer even noteworthy. It is the norm for most populations around the world. As is the case with most populations, they expect someone else to protect them or bail them out of trouble, usually the government. Self reliance and preparation are they focus of this forum, but we have a very small forum population.

Even with the public education efforts of the government and other organizations like the Red Cross, most people will not heed the simplest instructions and prepare in the most basic way.

First of all, you shouldn't fault people for wanting to inform family that they are OK.
========================================
No,not my point,my point was alcohol/tobacco are always referred to as THE great trade item,in todays world electrons seem to have supplanted that as a 'necessity' and would be a fine trade item.Point,the world has changed (cell phone vrs land lines,for example) and being at the forefront of change is beneficial.

I was watching CNN and of course you have the typical come rescue me types who just cant cope with much,that will never change.

Then they had some guy probably in his 50's,he was cleaning up his yard and pulling out the debris from his damaged home.Said he too wished the power had been restored,until then he was doing what still needed to be done,be it now or later.And that he wasnt going anywhere.

So this guy gets it.Get off your duff,get down to business and get it done! Obviously he was prepared enough to be self sufficient,be it less than optimal.

Kudos to that kind of thinking and doing.Not trying to cobble something together after the fact.

Proactive,Reactive and Inactive,I want to be in the first group,but most arent.

Now the people that think that just in time delivery systems will keep em supplied,or are clueless that system even exists,those folks are going to suffer.And these look like the so called brighter people in the populace too,thats scary IMO.

I think it was here somewhere someone said I bet they start looking at preppers in a more positive light going forward,I hope so too,every person who prepared in good times is one less person in dire need in bad times which is good for all in the major scheme of things.

My 2 little old ladies neighbors and the family next door with the 2 young kids wont starve in an earthquake until supplies arrive,but we may eat a lot of bread and soup until then.But I,and they,will eat.Barring zombie scenario.

As for genny's,as many many people go on without any power (power by Christmas,maybe??),more and more can see that a genny is a wise prep,they tend to be poo poo'd by many,IMO its a rather good prep.If you only use it to keep batteries charged light at night is a very comforting thing and important defense item.A cheapo fast NiMH battery charger (many batteries come in a pack with em),while hard on batts,is a super thing to have in grid down times.

A Honda EU genny might get you 15-25 DAYS from a single gallon of gas running it 30 minutes a day.You can do a lot in 30 minutes of power,for sure you wont be huddled in the dark.

Please remember that like there is a spectrum of folks who are prepared or unprepared, there are a lot of folks who are also rendered vulnerable by a disaster, to different degrees. The woman screaming in the street for assistance might require dialysis or daily meds, or she will die. The fact that no one has been in their neighborhood for 3 days is a very big thing in a scenario like that. We don't know from watching CNN. We've already established the physical impossibility of being prepared to our standards of preparedness in a 500 ft NYC apartment - now try that while on public assistance, or a limited retirement income. Try it with a physical disability, or mental illness. I'm hearing from friends who have deployed to H. Sandy, its pretty much like every other large scale disaster. Being prepared before hand can help a lot, as long as you avoid the path of the tornado - not everybody can do that, and I think its cruel to assume it when you look at people on the news. With all our generators and water caches, it doesn't do you a whit of good if your home is destroyed and takes it all away.

The vast majority of people are like the guy bailing out his basement and salvaging what he can, starting over. The next largest category are folks who are thanking Jehovah for their electricity back. But we're also seeing a lot of folks who can't cope with cold, lack of food, lack of meds, and lack of human comfort - those folks are entering Red Cross shelters. That ultimately is who we shelter at the RC, not so much the folks with other resources and options. The images of angry wahoos fighting for the gas pump are an amazingly small, small fraction of what's going on, but it makes news. I think its a mistake to allow the images of the wahoos to color your perceptions about who is really asking for help here. There but for the grace of allah goes the rest of us, safe and comfortable many miles away.

From the safety of our perches, lets give all of them their allotment of dignity and respect for the day.

Well said, Lono.

I expect most generators won't start so easily, after being submerged under 5 ft of salt water? All that rice you have cached might not taste so good then either.

Being self reliant and prepared is a noble idea. But some folks get way too self rightous about it. Even the most prepared among us could easily find ourselves in a situation where we desparately need the help of friends, neighbors, the red cross, or even (dread to think) the government.

That is NOT the case in NYC. Power is not needed for water since the pressure of the waterpipes themselves can raise a multi-story column.

Conway Yee

This is only true if you live up to about the sixth floor. That's why the wooden water tower on the roof is an iconic symbol of cities like NYC, and those tanks are filled by electric pumps.

Some people may not be totally familiar with urban living. NYC is the ultimate urban environment, where most people must live at a bare minimum simply because it's not possible to live anyway else. There's not enough room or money to live with with a generator or solar battery charger in the closet. You might want to be prepared for every different disaster scenario, but you just can't. Seriously, people decide to get a 13" laptop instead of a 17" laptop because the latter takes up too much room in their apartment. They don't count square feet. They count square inches.

I thought this article posted above was quite inspiring:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424..._MoreIn_NewYork

I was asking myself if I could make a generator for my cell phone from stuff I have in my relatively large house. I am embarrassed to say I can't, or at least I don't have the know-how. I'm not even sure if I could rig it with stuff in the 10 closest houses around me. Meanwhile, these people with limited resources in NYC found a way to do it.

Now, I may have misread some posts above that seem to be unduly negative. If I didn't misread, then come on. I'm sure plenty of people in Hurricane Sandy are worthy of harsh criticism. The folks in that article are not.

There are a lot of comments on this thread about how "a big city is not a good place to be in the event of a disaster" or how everyone should have car chargers and solar panels.

Here is my perspective as a resident of NYC who has also lived in very remote areas (e.g. a single, level B road leading to home).

1. The city has as many pros as cons in time of disaster. When the home in BFE doesn't have power for a week almost no one cares. When the road is flooded and trees are down very few people know. When there is a disaster of any kind in NYC we have the attention and aid of most of the world.

We also have doctors and specialist of every kind on hand. I have 300 families in my building. This includes everything from doctors to stone workers. Post disaster everyone helped each other.

The news loves to report the disruption in peoples lives but they rarely show the armies of locals who were up the next day, self-organizing into groups to clean up, gather food, money, coats, blankets, cook, haul trash/water, etc. I've seen this on many occasions. The news loves to report the looters but didn't cover countless people who shoved money into my 12 year-old's hand as he was collecting coats & blankets outside the local fire station.

2. An inverter does nothing but take up space when one doesn't own a car. A solar panel does little without a yard and even less without a window that regularly gets sun. The space under the bed? Yeah, that's where the couch is. lolz (loft beds). The good news? We can walk to 100's of local diners.

I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm simply providing another perspective to point out that while there are cons and people could be (should be!) more prepared there are many positive aspects to city living as well and many people have different priorities.

I suppose a big city would have many advantages in the kind of disaster that you can recover from within a week or two. In a SHTF, TEOTWAWKI-scenario probably not so much. Me, I don't spend much time worrying about apocalyptic situations since 1) the world is basically hosed and 2) I'm not at all sure that I care to outlast civilization. Simple animal existence doesn't sound all that appealing to me.

Keep in mind that many of negative comments do not reflect the majority of other forum members here.

Living in a big city such as NY requires a whole different way of thinking and preparation of those who live in smaller cities, towns and rural areas. You provided 2 good examples that show this difference, namely the car chargers and solar panels. Not everyone in NY city needs these due to living environments, space concerns etc, however they are good option for others.

I for example have both and are part of our plans for an extended power outage. Although I live in a large metro area, had something like Sandy rolled through here, our local, provincial and federal .gov does not have the vast resources available that NY city has seen. Had that same storm and power outage had occurred here, it would be some very long months, if not a more then a year before any sense of normalcy even started to show.

As one of the people who made the comment about a big city being a bad place to be, thanks for your firsthand perspective. I am glad to hear that your experience has been of people generally helping each other rather than causing problems. Maybe the city isn't as bad of a place in a disaster as we often think, at least if you have a good bunch of neighbors which it sounds like you do. And your point about "BFE" not being so great is also a good one (I never said that was ideal either!). Hope you're doing well.

Do you have car insurance? I do,when my jeep paid a 20,000 dollar visit to the neighbors livingroom,I was prepared.

Do you have health insurance? I do,when I needed 40,000 dollars of surgery,I got it.Glad I was prepared.

Do you have Disaster insurance? Its called commodities.I have it. When the power goes out I have lights,and food,my family isnt huddled in the dark,scared and awaiting rescue.Glad I am prepared.

Its simply insurance,why do you find it so reprehensible?

Lay on the moral superiority trip of how negative it is to point out insurance works.

I wont apologize for being insured and being accountable to provide for my families safety and well being.Or to provide charity to my neighbors in need.

Ok, guys. It's getting a little snippy.

Whenever I contemplate situation like this, I think about it in terms of how it relates to me and family. I tend to do the same in my post-event analysis - whether it's a disaster I personally experienced, or it's an event I watched on the news. "If it were me..." is very different from "They should have..." And I need to remember that I wasn't in their shoes. I see everything through my own lens.

We should also keep in mind that very few people become instantly prepared. Most if us do it one step at a time. I'm pretty well prepared compared to the average Jane, and I like to think that we're in pretty good shape preparedness-wise, but we're still improving our heating and back-up power solutions for our house and I've only got a couple weeks of drinking water stored. The people affected by this storm are on their third week now? No power? No running water? N'Or Easter? hmmm... sounds like the scenario I don't yet feel'totally prepared for but that at the top of my list to be prepared for.

I don't have a way to charge my cel phone when I'm on foot away from my Jeep, home or office. If I got stuck downtown on my 85km commute? I could be one of the people in the OP pic.

We're making improvements to our preps every day, and perhaps we would fair better than some of the peope in the stories we're hearing about, but I'd not about to slam anyone else about their preps. We're doing the best we can and I'm sure so are many of them.

There are advantages and disadvantages to being in the city and country. For example I live in the suburb of a city. I'm right off the electrical and gas grid that feeds an office building holding 10k workers and a huge mall, my utilities rarely go out and are repaired quickly when they do.
Parents are in the country and have counted up 30 days without electricity since July. Day 14 now since Sandy came through. Their propane company predicts usage based on previous data and refills their tank when it gets down to 25% and they just ran out a couple days ago and are on the wait list now since the storm messed up the supply lines and the elderly and such get priority.

Thanks all for the positive comments. I think this storm did a lot of good in terms of awareness! Yeah, it was bad - but not near as bad as it could have been Someone pointed out that this wasn't even a hurricane! Imagine a Cat 4!!

I was pretty surprised to Mayor Bloomberg and Gov Cristy talk about "Go bags". A term previously reserved for military personnel and these forums. I've now heard co-workers on Wall St. talk about having their "Go bags" packed! This is a HUGE improvement over 9/11! Granted their bags likely consisted of a flashlight, beef jerky and bottle of vodka but at least they're thinking of it. I've also brought up the "Prius inverter" idea after reading about them here (different thread) to several car-owning friends who are going to invest in these.

Good stuff! Thanks for spreading the word and helping people prepare!

OK Bacpacjac,Im calling you out.

You are CLEARLY a PREPPER! Thats right,YOU are a Prepper.

First off,you think about how it affects your family,not just you.What a concept!

Darn right you dont become instantly prepared,and unless you are Bill Gates or Glenn Beck your preps are going to have holes in it all over the place. So be it,every prep you have puts you that much closer to safety and freedom of choice in a disaster.

A JEEP??? What are you thinking with your disaster vehicle,you think its the end of the world Huh? But doggone it,its as good as any other vehicle,in a disaster its literally miles ahead. You PREPPER you.(BTW,with that flat roof you can mount a couple solar panels and have a fine power station of your own,at home and out on the road)

You lament in making choices on what to get.I read that as you have a budget and live within it,and it makes it an evolution,not a credit card charge game. How dare you be financially RESPONSIBLE,dont you know others will bail you out. Oh that PREPPER attitude,take care of yourself.

I see you dont make excuses not to prep,you admit you can do better and strive to do so,learning every day that there are things you can do,then you do them as you are able,a very laudable PREPPER attitude.

Finally,you can do post event analysis and LEARN from it,and take action.Just like a PREPPER.

Seriously the only thing I think you struggle with is not calling a failure a failure. Some do fail,and it isnt a crime to point out where they did,its how you learn not to make the same mistakes.
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What Ive been gathering from this disaster is a great desire by many to invest in charging solutions and to take the plunge.A generator is making peoples radar and the longer the power is out the more interest it gathers,good stuff!

Others are seeing with wide open eyes their water situation is a critical failure that could cost lives,and addressing those.

Surprisingly though many dont feel a need to have food,but that will change as long as eyes are open and you see whats right in front of you,and honestly call a failure a failure when you see them happening around you with these natural disasters.

Its not a crime to call it like it is.But IMO to not call it because its a negative,the World isnt all rose tinted glasses,sorry....the World has lots of negatives and will hurt you if you cant or wont make judgement calls and learn based on failures youve read or seen.

Yes,I will slam the people who buy endless toys or living beyond their means instead of taking care of themselves,expecting others to do it for them.

I'd much prefer to see them succeed.And I have no sympathy if they reap what they sow,or didnt sow.But dont expect me to approve or apologize for those who fail by choice,or to not point it out a lesson for a wiser person to learn from. Or not,your choice.