Soap for the long run?

Posted by: Susan

Soap for the long run? - 11/14/09 10:06 PM

This mainly a mental exercise, folks.

Suppose the grid and everything else went down for... say, two years.

What are your plans for soap? Hands, body, dishes, laundry.

Sure, it's a mundane question, so what?

Yes, I know that in the olden days, people didn't wash a lot of stuff very often, including themselves (like in the days of the Black --Bubonic-- Plague). Going back to those conditions with our delicate, non-resistant, anti-bacterial-doused bodies that don't have a high tolerance to bacteria seems like an invitation to problems.

So, do you plan to store a couple of years worth of soaps and detergents?

Do you plan to make your own soap? And if so, with what?

Would you be replacing soap with some other kind of cleaner?

Bring the ideas forth!

Sue
Posted by: Dagny

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/14/09 10:27 PM

This is an extremely important discussion and I'll be very interested to see what information is contributed to this thread.

I won't even camp for long without showers. This would be a huge morale issue and sanitation is not to be sneezed at....

And toothpaste.

I tend to buy soaps and hygiene stuff on sale so at best I might have six months on hand. If I got into my dog's shampoo...

First thing I'd do is stop being so liberal with soap. I measure laundry soap but otherwise don't measure what I use now. And compared to a lot of societies, Americans are obsessive about bathing so we could probably bath less often. Maybe every other day, that would stretch out supplies considerably.

Great topic.

Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/14/09 10:27 PM

Quote:
Suppose the grid and everything else went down for... say, two years.

What are your plans for soap? Hands, body, dishes, laundry.


The recent financial crisis prompted me to stockpile 2 years supply of household toiletries and household goods. Soap is cheap and inexpensive, is easy to keep in a long term stockpile and not easily reproduced in the garden shed. 2 years stockpile of soap shouldn't cost more the a case of MREs depending on how fancy the soap is. Same goes for toothpaste, shampoo, bleach and washing detergent and powder. Big boxes from discount retailers was the solution. Toilet paper is another story though being extremely bulky requiring lots of storage space (don't take Sheryl Crows advice unless SF trained using non NATO standard issue TP wink ) 2 years supply of acceptable quality razor blades was ridiculously expensive considering what you are actually getting. Same with the shaving oil, so I just made my own up from essential oils available from online retailers who mainly sell oils for wholesale aromatherapy products.


Posted by: wildman800

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/14/09 11:31 PM

I keep several books on hand that have different recipes for making soap.

There is a tree bark that is naturally soapy that Native Americans used. It might be rough but it worked well.
Posted by: Todd W

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/14/09 11:49 PM

Hands & Dishes- We get biodegradable soap from Costco for washing our hands, and doing dishes. I believe it's sold in 1G jugs, and we buy 2G each time we go. We have around 3-5g on hand and we go through maybe 1g every 5 months. Just the two of us, no dishwasher, all done by hand.

We also have 5 of those large "alcohol based" hand sanitizer containers from Wal-Mart/Costco. I am talking the large refill containers, not the pump models. We have probably 5 full pump throughout the house too + in our cars.

Body- We have a couple cases of dove unscented that we use already, we just stock it too. We could also use the Costco 1G biodegradable we use for hands/dishes for our body too if we wanted.

Clothes- We use the natural/unscented something another, and it lasts about 6 months. I recently just got enough powders to start making our own soap, I think I got enough to *are you ready* make 50 gallons of concentrated soap liquid. (I had to buy it in bulk.)

The main thing for washing is water supply.

2 years, no grid, how are you getting water?

For us we have a two wells (almost 1/4 mile apart) and two generators, and enough electrical connectors, extension cords, holding tanks, to get us through. Next spring/summer we will be adding a 2600g holding tank too, and if funds allow digging my pond and plumbing the second well up for gravity feed.

Toilet Paper is much harder to stock due to bulk, and not wanting to leave it in the basement (moisture potential). We have enough on hand for probably 6 months. Once the basement is dry/sealed up we`ll stock much more I`m thinking.

Tooth paste is another easy thing to store and cheap.

We don't store bleach but we do keep 5 gallons of vinegar on hand too. Great for washing and tons of misc things.

2 years of razors = cheap!! Come awn, disposable dual blade razors. I get atleast 1 or 2 packs a year from relatives or my mother in my "stocking" gift.. I haven't shaved in 2 years, I only trim my beard so really razors are for the wife smile But in a survival situation they could be spread out much longer I`m sure.

Cooking oil is very important to stock for long term and commonly missed. Even pressurized canola oil expires within 2 years, so it may be wise to stock some lard or something for longer-term storage if that's what you are into. We use the aerosol stuff, and rotate through it every few months so storing it is no big deal.

Posted by: MDinana

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/15/09 12:22 AM

To be honest, I haven't thought about it. I mean, I buy usually the 6 or 8-pack of bar soap for myself. Hand soap I usually buy the big size refill of liquid soap. A tube of toothpaste lasts for ever, probably 6 months per tube.

When camping, I've gone a week without showering. You get a bit ripe, but only to a point before you're done with basting in your own filth and your body hits an equilibrium.

So for this mental excercise, assuming I bath once weekly, I'm sure my 8-pack would do just fine for a LONG while. Maybe 2 years? That's only 104 baths. I think it's do-able. I don't know if the toothpaste would last that long, but if a 2-pack lasts me a year, and I brush 2-3 times a day, then yeah, once a day should last 2 years.

As for laundry or hand soap, I think I'm ok just rinsing my chothes or bathing with them on during my weekly cleaning.

I advise others to stay upwind of me in this situation. smile
Posted by: dweste

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/15/09 02:34 AM

A number of plants have saponins that lather and are very good soaps, such as yucca, soaproot, and soapweed.

Everyone used to make a lye-type soap from "soup" of wood ash and water - often scented and made more mild by adding pine or flowers. I think some folks added rendered fat or sheep lanolin to make the soap more mild.
Posted by: Susan

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/15/09 02:52 AM

Lye soaps require fat, from what I understand; otherwise, it's just lye. It's the fat that would be the trickiest. Every animal that wasn't under armed guard would probably be killed and eaten in less than the first year.

Plants are interesting, but it might be difficult to grow enough.

Toothbrushes are more important than toothpaste. It's the brush that does the work. The paste just adds a little fluoride and scent.

Okay, homemade soap if you have fat available, soap plants, storage of commercial soaps, and soap rationing. Anything else?

Sue
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/15/09 04:20 AM

Given the scenario, I don't think soap would be the most important thing by a long shot. Very nice to have, and somewhat important for health and morale in the short term. But probably more essential as a trade good. An ounce of perfumed soap for ... you name it.

It's not like the crew at the office are going to whisper. What office? A daily shower is a luxury. A bi-weekly scrub-down is a necessity.

From what I've read, the NASA/International Space Station folks who spend months in space (albeit with some pretty awesome non-water-washing kit) are mostly dying for a good exfoliation when they get back.

Like a scrub down with sand and hot water. Or scrub down with wood ash and hot water. Boil evergreen needles or any aromatic solvent-producing plant in hot water. Boil/rinse your dishes in hot water.

Make vinegar out of those mealy apples and use for preserving and washing. Vinegar is great for peeling oils off surfaces.

And what about a steaming hot sauna, and a good roll in the snow after? Very refreshing. Alone or otherwise.
Posted by: Kona1

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/15/09 05:05 AM

Natives in the high mountains of South America will save their urine to wash their hair.



Posted by: MDinana

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/15/09 08:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Kona1
Natives in the high mountains of South America will save their urine to wash their hair.




I read that ancient Romans did the same for dental hygeine.

Talk about a potty-mouth! lol
Posted by: rbruce

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/15/09 12:55 PM

Cody Lundin covered hygiene pretty well in his last book "When all hell breaks loose."
Posted by: Meadowlark

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/15/09 06:37 PM

Sue wrote:

What are your plans for soap? Hands, body, dishes, laundry.


Hands -- bottled lavender handsoap, then bar soap.
Body -- bar soap.
Dishes -- biodegradable dishsoap, then bar soap.
Laundry -- biodegradable laundry detergent, then Zote laundry bar soap.


So, do you plan to store a couple of years worth of soaps and detergents?

We currently have at least a year's worth of bar soap, and about 4-6 months worth of the others.



Do you plan to make your own soap? And if so, with what?

Nope. Soap is relatively inexpensive and easy to store.



Would you be replacing soap with some other kind of cleaner?

Hopefully not! Although salt/sand and hot water can work in a pinch.


Some things I learned in the Peace Corps:

* In a desert or dry climate, full bathing is only needed once a week, at most. (Unless one has dysentery or other problems)

* "Army baths", that is, a washcloth and a small water bucket, use far less soap and water.

* Leftover bar soap scraps can be collected and put in the toe of old hosiery to be used to wash dishes.

* Really dirty dishes benefit from scrubbing with salt or even sand.

* A large bottle of good shampoo can last for at least 8-9 months. Just pour a very small amount into a travel-sized plastic bottle filled 2/3 with water, and shake vigorously. This soapy solution should be enough to use for several uses. When the travel bottle is empty, repeat.







***
Posted by: Susan

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/16/09 12:49 AM

Sand will take dried crud off dishes, but it doesn't do a thing for the bacteria, nor for grease (assuming you had grease).

Salt or baking soda will work, but where will you be getting it? Are you storing large amounts?

If you store a year's supply of soap, what will you do for the second year?

Sue
Posted by: LED

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/16/09 01:59 AM

I know my grandmother never bought soap her whole life. Always made it with olive oil and lye from potash IIRC. She used an old wooden loom (still in the basement) and hand made all her families clothes, rugs, curtains, etc. Smart lady. I figure if it was good enough for her its good enough for me.
Posted by: nurit

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/16/09 02:22 AM

"Cody Lundin covered hygiene pretty well in his last book "When all hell breaks loose.""

+1. I never knew, for example, that clothing loses some of its ability to insulate when it's dirty.
Posted by: comms

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/16/09 02:42 AM

I make my own laundry detergent. i can list the amounts but its about $4 for a 5 gallon batch, as a concentrate. Some of the dry ingredients will last 4-5 batches. The soap aspects are something we already stock for several months but not years.

cool note for Off Grid clothes washer: 5 gallon bucket with lid. Cut hole in lid and insert a toilet plunger. Put in some clothes and water. Twirl/agitate with plunger. Hang dry.
Posted by: Alex

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/16/09 04:11 AM

A bunch of crumpled green straight leaf grass + sand will do the dishes pretty well (removing crud and grease). Bacteria? What bacteria? Just wash it right after every meal, rinse and let dry preferably in the sun.

For the laundry the best ancient method I know is trampling clothes in a bathtub (some detergent needed though). Clean clothes and clean feet - guaranteed.

Proven hair shampoo:
make 2 tbs of powdered oatmeal, stew it with boiling water, add 1 fresh egg yolk (optionally add 1 tbs of honey). Massage this dough into the hair, let it dry for 15 minutes, rinse.

Weekly body wash - make yourself a sauna. Use a bunch of fresh crumpled grass as a sponge to scrub the skin when sweating starts.
Posted by: Pete

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/16/09 04:41 AM

One of the most fascinating comments I've heard came from a guy who was once in the Marines, and then did a lot of outdoors work. He told me that he only used one piece of cookware for eating his food while camping. He would prepare several dishes in it - I guess he meant a snack, am entree and maybe some dessert. His interesting remark was the following: He claimed to have found a way to prepare these dishes so that by the time he was done eating - the cookware was entirely clean again. He did not need soap or detergent at all. Somehow the foods he prepared did the job for him.

Unfortunately, I never got a chance to find out how he did this. But I don't think he was lying ... he had some kind of system. Maybe it wouldn't work on all foods, but it did work for whatever dietary regimen he followed.

Pete
Posted by: Redbeard

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/16/09 06:58 AM

read this somewhere...tried it. it was QUITE effective.

If you cook a meal that has some grease/fat over a WOOD fire, you have everything you need to clean up.

Add a bit of water (hotter is better) and some of the ash from your fire to the pan. Tada! You have basically begun to make lye soap in the pan. Scrub it out with some pine needles. The solution/paste can be rather harsh, so be sure to rinse your hands well.

Be sure you use water that is safe to drink.
Hotter the water the better
Harder woods are better than softer woods.
You can help heat up the paste/solution by tossing in a chunk of hot charcoal
When the charcoal cools you can use it to scrub the pan
smile
Posted by: adam2

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/16/09 11:42 AM

I have stored enough soap for many years use,it is cheap and appears to keep indefinatly.
Liquid detergent as used for diswashing can also be used in the shower, but is rather drying for daily use.

I keep 25 litres of diswashing deteregent, which is enough for several years use.
I keep at least 100 bars of soap as used in the shower, one bar lasts at least 2 weeks.
For laundry I keep about a years worth of detergent.

In normal conditions I shower daily, but only with plain hot water.
I use soap or shower gell only if engine oil, paint, soot ect requires removal.
Posted by: comms

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/16/09 04:48 PM

HA...good one on that standard disclaimer.
Posted by: Compugeek

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/16/09 07:57 PM

Since razor blades came up:

Experiment now and see how long you can go on a single blade. You might be VERY surprised how long a blade can give you a decent shave.
Posted by: LED

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/16/09 08:12 PM

Not sure if this helps, but I douse my razor with rubbing alcohol before and after each use. I do if for bacteria, but I read somewhere it helps keep the blade from rusting which may shorten razor life. Anyone confirm this?
Posted by: Susan

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/17/09 03:37 AM

A friend shares her husband's razors. He uses his razors as usual, then passes them onto her for her legs.

The other way around does NOT work...

Sue
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/17/09 12:34 PM

I shave daily and can routinely use a disposable for a month or more.
Posted by: T_Co

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/17/09 01:33 PM

IF it was for the long term would you shave daily though? If it's not super cold out I could get by with 4-5 days. Longer yes but so it's still within that stubble stage so your not trying to mow the lawn with it. A good thought though, how many single guys have only a Norelco, Braun etc, and not even a single cheap disposable. Power outage and you didn't recently charge that bad boy you're gunna be out of luck.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/17/09 01:42 PM

I hate shaving. But I'm thinly bearded and might start showing a 5 o'clock shadow day after tomorrow. I can go two months on a Trac II cartridge -- NBD.

Soap though, that's different. It may be worthwhile to stock more. It's fairly inexpensive and it has a long shelf life.
Posted by: Mark_F

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/17/09 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Redbeard
read this somewhere...tried it. it was QUITE effective.

If you cook a meal that has some grease/fat over a WOOD fire, you have everything you need to clean up.

Add a bit of water (hotter is better) and some of the ash from your fire to the pan. Tada! You have basically begun to make lye soap in the pan. Scrub it out with some pine needles. The solution/paste can be rather harsh, so be sure to rinse your hands well.

Be sure you use water that is safe to drink.
Hotter the water the better
Harder woods are better than softer woods.
You can help heat up the paste/solution by tossing in a chunk of hot charcoal
When the charcoal cools you can use it to scrub the pan
smile

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/clean-your-cooking-gear-with-wood-ashes/

That takes care of the dishes. Hands and body not so easy. My sister makes a soap from goat milk and other ingredients but not sure how practical that might be in our hypothetical situation (plus she lives over five hours away). Laundry probably beaten on rocks like in the old days.
Originally Posted By: Susan

Yes, I know that in the olden days, people didn't wash a lot of stuff very often, including themselves (like in the days of the Black --Bubonic-- Plague). Going back to those conditions with our delicate, non-resistant, anti-bacterial-doused bodies that don't have a high tolerance to bacteria seems like an invitation to problems.

Necessary to thin out the herd so to speak. Current germs and viruses have become so resistant to so many antibiotics it is not that unthinkable that another plague of sorts lies in our near future. I digress however. But in this situation it is very likely things (and people) won't get cleaned like they should.
Posted by: Redbeard

Re: Soap for the long run? - 11/17/09 09:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark_Frantom
Originally Posted By: Redbeard
read this somewhere...tried it. it was QUITE effective.

If you cook a meal that has some grease/fat over a WOOD fire, you have everything you need to clean up.

Add a bit of water (hotter is better) and some of the ash from your fire to the pan. Tada! You have basically begun to make lye soap in the pan. Scrub it out with some pine needles. The solution/paste can be rather harsh, so be sure to rinse your hands well.

Be sure you use water that is safe to drink.
Hotter the water the better
Harder woods are better than softer woods.
You can help heat up the paste/solution by tossing in a chunk of hot charcoal
When the charcoal cools you can use it to scrub the pan
smile

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/clean-your-cooking-gear-with-wood-ashes/

That takes care of the dishes. Hands and body not so easy. My sister makes a soap from goat milk and other ingredients but not sure how practical that might be in our hypothetical situation (plus she lives over five hours away). Laundry probably beaten on rocks like in the old days.
Originally Posted By: Susan

Yes, I know that in the olden days, people didn't wash a lot of stuff very often, including themselves (like in the days of the Black --Bubonic-- Plague). Going back to those conditions with our delicate, non-resistant, anti-bacterial-doused bodies that don't have a high tolerance to bacteria seems like an invitation to problems.

Necessary to thin out the herd so to speak. Current germs and viruses have become so resistant to so many antibiotics it is not that unthinkable that another plague of sorts lies in our near future. I digress however. But in this situation it is very likely things (and people) won't get cleaned like they should.


i think that is the one! even if it is not the exact one i read, it is certainly a better description than i wrote. thanks for the find!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Soap for the long run? - 12/03/09 02:27 AM

I have saved every shampoo and soap from every hotel I have stayed in for the last 20 years, and except for the occassional replacement for the extra set I keep in my toiletry kit, I haven't used any.
I have literally hundreds of these single serving versions, plus mouthwash, shower caps, shoe polishing rags, toothbrushes, etc.
I also bought a book on soap and candle making, it's in one of my bug out bins, I recall glycerin being a prevalent ingredient but forget where it can be obtained off grid.
Posted by: NIM

Re: Soap for the long run? - 12/03/09 02:35 AM

Ok,

Here's what I've tried.
#1 Stainless steel. I bought a 'stainless steel' bar of soap for hunting (it destroys scent). I thought "This is too good to be true". I was wrong.
The stuff works! For two months straight I used it on my underarms (Why are you eating while reading ETS posts?)....
My wife had no idea I had stopped using soap. You have to wash each armpit for 1 minute each BUT it killed all scent.
Suppose any stainless steel would do but I couldn't find a comfy substitute. I tried a spoon but the shape was irritating. The stainless steel 'soap' doesn't even irritate the skin. It is smooth!
During testing the only weakness I found with the stainless steel soap was that it didn't remove gasoline or garlic scent. Obviously, it couldn't do anything about oily messes.

#2 Ok seriously....stop eating now. Just because you guys don't know me...I can tell you the following:
Having tried the stainless steel soap (currently discontinued as real soap is faster and I can buy it)
I met a friend who said he never showered. Now I'd lived in the bush with the guy for a week and he didn't smell. I asked him how he did it. He said live stress free and just rinse with water daily. Soap isn't magic. He said he thought it a waste of resources to use shampoo then add back in oils with conditioners. If you just use water the oils aren't removed but the dirt is, plus your oil levels go down after awhile.

So, a year and a half ago I stopped using shampoo. It took hmmm I think a few weeks before my hair didn't look like I'd stop using Shampoo (I was living in the bush at the time). I found it really was nice. Now I look like my hair has a bit of shine, but it isn't oily, or smelly. In fact, my wife has no idea that I stopped (yes we sleep/etc and live together). She asked at first and I said I was trying a natural conditioner. I didn't elaborate. Just wash your hair as if you had soap. If I every get a super dirty I do use shampoo (it isn't a religion) or before I get haircuts (mostly so I don't ever get asked about it). If my wife and all my friends haven't noticed I'm sure most people will be safe. As a plus my face doesn't dry out in the winters anymore. Let it be know that my skin was neither oily or dry before this experiment.

#3 Silver shirts. XSCENT hunting shirts. THEY WORK TOO! (I don't sell them or have anything to do with them)
They cost about the same as a regular shirt (don't get synthetics). It is basically a cotton shirt with nanosilver bonded to it. The X-scent brand (I'm 90% sure I spelled it right. ) Didn't lose the silver with repeated washings (lab tested). You can wear the shirts for a week (day and night) and ask your wife to smell the armpits and she will have no idea. If I did that with a normal shirt I'd be up on murder charges. After 1 week it does smell hmmm not bad, but old.
Like an old book or old leather. As a plus, the shirt kills bacteria (that's how it works). So I know people who have a rag of the stuff and use it instead of chemical hand sanitizers.

Just my two cents. Hope you never need the above stuff!



Not a hippy,

-NIM
Posted by: dweste

Re: Soap for the long run? - 12/03/09 06:42 AM

I use a stainless steel "bar of soap" to just about eliminate fish odor from my hands. Never thought about trying it elsewhere or otherwise.
Posted by: Alex

Re: Soap for the long run? - 12/04/09 05:44 AM

NIM. Great post! I'm bathing by everyday rinsing only too for several years, but still using a little bit of shampoo for my hair. I'm acquainted with the shampoo conspiracy theory too, but had no chance yet to spend a week or two in the woods to re-grow my natural hair smile The steel and silver stuff is also very interesting. Found the even more sophisticated fabric - Bamboo Carbon & Nano-Silver.
Posted by: NIM

Re: Soap for the long run? - 12/04/09 11:20 AM

Hi Alex,

Thanks for the link. Just be really careful with the nano-silver.
Check the supplier and see if they have done independent testing.

Probably 90% of the nano-silver products lose some of their silver with every wash. This causes two problems #1 it doesn't work as well with each wash. #2 Nano-silver (while safe for humans) is absolutely deadly in lakes/river ecosystems.

Since all of my water goes back into lakes I wish to be very careful in the products I use/buy.

NIM
Posted by: paramedicpete

Re: Soap for the long run? - 12/04/09 02:10 PM

Quote:
#2 Nano-silver (while safe for humans) is absolutely deadly in lakes/river ecosystems.


Can you provide links to studies in which this has been observed/shown?

Thanks-
Pete
Posted by: Susan

Re: Soap for the long run? - 12/04/09 04:56 PM

Here's one article: Silver Nanotechnologies and the Environment by Samuel N. Luoma. (Dr. Luoma has emeritus status at USGS, after 34 years as a project chief with the agency and 15 years as a Senior Research Hydrologist.)

Sue
Posted by: paramedicpete

Re: Soap for the long run? - 12/04/09 06:45 PM

While it may turn out that the statement is correct, this report does not support the statement, in fact it seems to somewhat refute the statement. It raises many important questions that most likely should be investigated, but it clearly is too early to make a blanket statement that nanosilver is: “#2 Nano-silver (while safe for humans) is absolutely deadly in lakes/river ecosystems.”

From the report:

“There are no examples of adverse effects from nanosilver technologies occurring in the environment at the present.”

“Silver concentrations in natural waters, even those contaminated by human activities, range from 0.03 to 500 nanograms/liter (ng/L). Even substantial proliferation of silver nanotechnologies is unlikely to produce pollutant concentrations in excess of the ng/L range.”

“Silver is highly toxic to bacteria, and that toxicity seems to be accentuated when silver is delivered by a nanoparticle.” Based upon this, bacterial concentrations would be the first to be affected and should act as the canary in the mine. To the best of my knowledge, there are no studies that support or suggest that the microbial load in any waterway has been affected by nanosilver to date. If anything most waterways have had an increase in bacterial loads due to poorly functioning water treatment plants and an increase in run-off due to urban/surban development.

“No known cases exist of people or the environment being harmed specifically by nanomaterials
or nanosilver.”

Scientific investigation is critical when evaluating the impact of any compound on the environment. However, merely raising the question of the potential/possible impact should not be construed as an indictment or proof that a compound is adversely affecting anything, no less the environment which extremely complex.

Pete
Posted by: NIM

Re: Soap for the long run? - 12/04/09 09:18 PM

I did make a pretty strong claim eh? Ok, let me clarify. There is a great deal of research that silver in ecosystems is dangerous and deadly to certain organisms.

See:

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/nanosilver
"In one new experiment, Furgeson, a professor of pharmaceutical sciences, exposed zebrafish embryos to silver nanoparticles in a laboratory, and found that some died and others were left with dramatic mutations.

“Some of the fish became extremely distorted, almost making a number nine or a comma instead of a linear fish,” he said.

The nanosilver caused malformations in their eyes, swim bladders and tails, and some developed fluid around the heart that causes congestive heart failure, according to the study, which was published in August in the nanotechnology journal Small."


or this link
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080406175050.htm

"If you start releasing ionic silver, it is detrimental to all aquatic biota. Once the silver ions get into the gills of fish, it's a pretty efficient killer"

Just do a quick google "nanosilver damage lakes"

It is my personal position that...

I will not use a 'new' product UNTIL it has been proven to be 100% safe for the user and the environment. For example, I feel it is irresponsible for GMO organisms to be created and let loose in the environment . Prove they are safe first.

It is for this reason that Nuclear Reactors in Canada use 15 years old components by policy. If they don't have a long history of the products ins/outs they will not use it. It would be too dangerous.

As the data is heavily indicating toxicity of silver nano particles I will not purchase a product that sheds them. Why would I risk damage to the environment AND buy a crappy product that gets worse with time?
-NIM