Cool Tools review of _big_ generator for house

http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/003428.php

12KW generator that runs on LP gas instead of diesel or gasoline.

Question, Is your house on LP and if so I hope you have a big tank. During bad time how are you going to get LP when you run out? at least with gas or diesel you can go to the corner station with a can. Just my thoughts

I plan to have a natural gas powered generator installed in the spring. Thanks for the info, Izzy.

The cost to run a 12KW generator per day is about the same as staying in a luxury hotel.

In the years that I've lived in my house, I've lost electrical service approximately twice a year, for (so far!) only a few minutes/hours at a time, due to equipment failure, accidents knocking poles down, squirrels committing suicide, etc. Being that natural gas is a commodity delivered to your house just like electricity, is it really reliable enough to depend on in an emergency? I don't believe I've ever lost delivery of natural gas, and even if I did, I probably wouldn't know it for a few hours. In winter, I'd notice sooner as the furnace wouldn't work, though in summer I wouldn't notice until the hot water wasn't as hot as it should be or the stove didn't work. Has anyone lost or know of anyone that lost natural gas delivery, for any reason? I'm just wondering if it's wise to depend on an emergency fuel source that you have no control over.

I looked at a 12kw generator, but after I did the math on operating costs, I opted for a 3000 watt Honda gasoline powered generator.

It can run:

2 refrigerator freezers
3 computers/networking equipment
several lights.
and our furnace.

This is more than enough for us. Best of all, it costs less than $20 a day to run.

When our power was out for almost two weeks, this would have been the result:

12kw generator = $7,500 in fuel
3000w generator = $280 in fuel

I'm glad I went the 3000 watt route. I do acknowledge that it is not as convenient as having an automatic cut-over, but since all of our appliances are corded, including the furnace, it really isn't that big of a deal to go on emergency power.

NG service has built in failsafes, they have NG generators at the pump stations so they are esentially self sufficient.
I can't decide on weather to get a generator or not now that we have moved. We would loose power quite often in the old neighborhood but now the lines are underground so it would take a lot to loose it.

When I get my 12kw or 15kw it will be an old school Detroit Diesel 2-71 based. < 5k$ rebuilt...

Someone I know has the 25kw version and it eats .75g/hr @ half power... I suspect the 12kw to eat the same since the generator head is just different and the motor is the same. .75g/hr is fine for me... WAY better than Gas, Propane or Natural Gas and the engine will last at least 15x longer than Gas, Propane or NG.

Seems like a no brain`r for me... assuming you have the room (They're large), and can enclose it away from the house (I can) to keep the sound minimal.

I don't need 12kw or 15kw but 15kw is only a couple hundred more than the 12kw, and I may need it to do some repairs (welder) in case of emergency


-Todd

Are you knowledgeable about diesel storage? If not you may want to research that first. Not just as pertains to the fuel, but local restrictions. I know it doesn't keep well long term.

The problem with Diesel storage are the "fuel critters" (algae) that will grow inside the fuel/fuel tank. There is an additive that is available to add to the fuel that stops "fuel critters" from growing.

That's been my experience!

Fuel critters, water and cold weather issues come to mind right off the bat.

Then comes the EPA and anything else the State of California in its infinite wisdom can come up with.

Now I'm beginning to reconsider my decision to install a NG generator due to the high fuel demands that I was unaware of. It seems that here in Ohio, lengthy outages don't occur often but they do occur. We've had outages that took weeks to restore. Our area was struck by outages last week (ice, wind, temps below 0 F) and I reckon there are still people whose power hasn't been restored. I have a decent Honda unit (gasoline) that will keep the furnace running but my job keeps me away from home for about 14 hours on work days and the generator will run out of fuel before I can return.

Gotta run - more ice is predicted and I need more gasoline!

Yeah, but how much do you actually need to power in a true "emergency?"

I'm thinking:

- The furnace (20A/120V) (if you're where it's cold. Hopefully you don't have electric heat).

- A/C (30A/240V) (if you're where it's really hot. It might be easier to get a window A/C (15-20A/120V) and cool one bedroom that everyone sleeps in.).

- A well pump (20A/120V)(if you have one - water, showers and toilets).

- The fridge/freezer (20A/120V)(to keep food from spoiling).

- Electric range (40-50A/240V) and/or electric water heater (30A/240V) (Most generators won't make this much power).

- A few lights and a TV. (15A/120V)

I'd try and stretch out my fuel supply for as long as possible by feeding only what was really needed. Look at the north east after the ice storms they just had. Most of all they needed heat, to keep the house safely warm and safe from damage (freezing water pipes make a mess). The well pump so you have water and can use a toilet. If it's that cold, empty the fridge/freezer and put the stuff outside (Let Mother Nature keep it cold for free). If it's hot where you live, try and keep the fridge/freezer doors closed as much as possible and run them in cycles (run the fridge for an hour, then unplug it and run something else or turn the generator off to conserve fuel).
If your stove/range doesn't work, fire up the grill or camp stove, or if you can, go out to eat.

That is definitely a downside to a portable generator. I taught Mrs. Garlydog, who works from home, how to refill and restart it. This works for us.

We have done one truly "whole house" generator. We did all the prep work wiring and panel wise, and the homeowner contracted directly for the generator. I don't know the size, but it was almost an Oversize Load on the 18 wheeler that brought it in. It is about as big (outside dimensions) as the one behind our local telephone company central office. The guy is phenomenally rich, so it didn't matter to him. I bet it cost more than my house easily. The darn thing is LOUD also.

Power for the HVAC is a must have in Florida. September power outages lasting more than an hour make staying in the house quite uncomfortable.

I can usually get my oil lamps to last me a couple days between feedings. Losing the stovetop just gives me an excuse to break out the cast iron and the firepan and go to elk camp mode. In cold weather, I only need to keep the house warm enough to protect the utilities from freezing. If it doesn't become too much of an inconvenience, it's easy to turn the whole thing into an adventure.

100g isn't to bad to store, 50g wouldn't be bad either.
I have a designated generator room, enclosed, and plan to insulate it actually too. Additive should be used anytime it's not going to be used right away IMHO. I agree, diesel is NOT For everyone, I live Rural, and can store it... so I know 50g or 100g is not that much esp after I get my tractor *Dreams* hehe.

-Todd

They do do the whole house, just not at the same time!

Carbon monoxide the 5th most deadly killer in the US. Sure you want a generator room inside the house?

Enclosed doesn't always mean inside the house.

Cool, just must have read into the comment. I would hate for someone to forget and not get the CO out properly.

Thanks for letting me know.

Ok, maybe room was the wrong term. I have an "out building" specifically designed for a generator... I had one there when I bought my house then some jerk stole it!! This was literally the day after I got my keys.

So, anyway, right now I just have some stuff stored in there, and my well pressure tank. It has mounts, and wiring for running the generator though when I can afford my next one I`ll insulate it, and make it a lil more sound-proof too

It sounds like you have done work `around the house` so I would trust you know that drywall is non-flammable (yet the paper backing is) like the vapor barrier of the insulation, and the wood they cover/surround. Also, I would never insulate something and not put drywall on it... kind of pointless to have 'pockets of warm air' or use them to reduce sound if it's not backed by the thick drywall to aid in sound deadening, fire proof, and insulating.

IzzyJG99- I'm pretty sure you are here to help but sometimes your posts come across as if think you know it all and like to presume we are morons and can't think for ourselves.

Personally making a generator box out of plywood even with a barrier of 1" on it seems like a TERRIBLE idea, probably why the factory and after market industry doesn't make generator boxes out of wood... they use steel or aluminum I am also concerned for your safety with a wood box housing a gasoline engine.

Def. no hard feelings Everyone needs a shake up now and then, myself included.

> I'm just wondering if it's wise to depend on an emergency fuel source
> that you have no control over.

Shrug - tell me what emergency fuel source you have control over?

If the power is out, can you get gas from the gas station? I think their pumps are electric, the credit card machine is electric, the cash register is electric.

Think of Katrina -- what fuel source was anyone in control over in New Orleans?

I lived on farms for years that had propane or butane for our fuel. This was in Texas, and we never had any storm or other event that kept deliveries from being made - no blizzards, hurricanes, or earthquakes. The guys came out in a truck and refilled our propane tank or butane tank.

My reason for suggesting that article is that a tank of propane won't go bad as fast as a tank of gasoline that sits out there for a year or two when I forget to siphon it out and use it in my car and refill the tank with fresh gasoline.

I'd think having your 'emergency fuel source' on hand where you live would be an important consideration, e.g.: a wood-burning stove or fireplace and a few cords of firewood, a propane heater and a large propane tank or two, a kerosene heater and a barrel of kerosene, etc. I think electricity is a poor choice to rely on in an emergency since it is so easily disrupted.
That being said, a lot of people simply don't have a choice in the matter. Apartment dwellers or someone who's home is powered exclusively by electricity are two such examples. People who live in apartments are bound by their lease and the law as to what is allowed in their apartment, such as space heaters, and the space to store fuel to power such devices. Also, since electricity is so easy to lose, quite a few people (who's home is mostly electrical) are going the generator route. My city allows a maximum of two 5-gallon containers of gas to be stored. That isn't going to last very long in a generator. So, your choices are obey the law and go dark in 3-4 days or ignore the law and store a larger amount of fuel, something incredibly dangerous, at least in the case of gasoline, and something many people will still do!
I can pretty much guarantee that if, for whatever reason, your local firefighters have to show up at your house and find two or three 55-gallon drums of gasoline in an attached garage, they're not going to be happy, nor will your insurance agent.

My local propane company said they wouldn't up my size to 500g unless I re-filled my 250g at least 2x a year. Having propane for only cooking and hot water I will not even refill it once in a year. (I pay <$60/yr for the lease).

The other option in the future is to buy a 500g tank for a few hundred. Or maybe a 1000g tank if I can get a deal.

If you buy a tank, get a copy of the test documents, or no deal. The fuel supplier may want it if they didn't provide (sell) you the tank. You may find they will at least negotiate a reduced price on the tank if you buy it from them. I am surprised you use so little. Most of my homeowners that are on propane use MUCH more.

Do they heat with propane?
Have families?

2 of us, instant hot water (on demand, much less usage than a standard tank) and a gas cook-top. That's it.

I asked about purchasing a tank from my current company and they wanted $800 for the 250g tank.. I told them no thanks!

I may be able to convince them to get me a 2nd tank as I could use one for my 'in-laws quarters' we plan to make above the garage and one for the house. (This is all in the way future right now)


Thanks for the advice about the documents.

Yes they do heat, but only part of the house. There are only two of them, but they wouldn't pony up for the tankless water heaters.