Gasoline/ethanol mixes harmful to generators

On a recent camping trip my friend's Honda generator broke down. When he took it in for repairs the mechanic immediately dove into the carburetor and pulled out a rock-hard rubber diaphram. According to the mechanic he's been seeing this problem in literally hundreds of small engines since ethanol has been added to gas. Ethanol will cause rubber to stiffen up and become brittle, thereby screwing up your carburetor. As a chemist, I know this is a true effect. Everything I make at work has to undergo compatibility tests with also sorts of materials (rubber, neoprene, Tygon tubing, Vitex, etc...). I have to avoid using ethanol in anything that will be pumped by our smaller pumps as they contain rubber gaskets and the such.

If you have a generator or other small engine you may want to pick up a few spare diaphrams for it and learn how to replace them yourselves, especially if the generator is for emergency use. Repair shops aren't open under such circumstances. ETS member kmat was run ragged keeping his neighbors' generators running after hurricane Ike, though in most of those cases it was stuff like clogged fuel filters. As all these generators sit until next time the rubber will turn to rock and then all these people will be screwed unless they have the parts on hand.

-Blast

I think the idea was that the gas would be so much cheaper that it would have offset the mileage difference. Of course, that never happened. I'm waiting for switchgrass gas.
Ethanol was also harder on older cars when it first came out because of the gasket material they used to use. Currect gaskets in autos usually aren't really rubber so there is no wear penalty in your car anymore. I'm surprised that the small engine industry never followed suit.
I know a few people who have never even unboxed their generators and don't have any gas to run them, but feel prepared.

In my area, ethanol is only added to gasoline from October through March (or thereabouts). So stocking up on fuel for a generator in the summer would be preferable.

You can't make gasoline from switchgrass. You can make ethanol with it. Modern gasoline combustion engines can't run on pure ethanol, not without some serious modifications anyway. Switchgrass isn't a panacea but it's a helluva lot smarter than the current model using corn.

As for the running on corn oil, I think you may be thinking of the original diesel engine which was actually run on coal oil and can now run on vegetable oil. I have 2 Mercedes Benz diesels that have been modified to run on used vegetable oil. Works like a charm. And of course there's also bio-diesel which is simply refined vegetable oil, another great alternative to both gasoline as well as petroleum diesel.

John E

Currently we can't even do that. Ethanol made from cellulose is still years away.

Getting back to the thread, one could buy aviation gas for their generator. This gas is high octane and is not allowed to contain ethanol. It is a bit pricier though. Maybe a mix of av-gas and regular gas would help by cutting down the percentage of ethanol.

It might be possible to extract the ethanol by washing the gasoline with water then using a separatory funnel followed by some sort of drying agent to remove the water from the gas. The question with this technique is what else would be removed from the gasoline (surfactants, light-end molecules, etc...)?

-Blast

Blast, is it even worth the trouble to try and wash out the ethanol? Seems like it would be easier to just keep those spare parts as you described earlier.

John E

Can't you buy gas without ethanol in your area? You still can here and I'm in the middle of corn country.

And there is the difference between an engineer and a chemist.

It probably depends on how easy it is to acquire and replace the parts. I would think a big-name generator would have spare parts available while with some no-name Chinese gen this could be an issue.

My friend's generator was acting funky for hours before it quit. This suggests one would have some warning and could make the repairs without being under pressure/in the dark/whatever.

-Blast

Thanks for the heads up- my dad stores his with a full tank, so I'm afraid to think about out the crud that might be in there with this in mind.

Vermont, we run something like 10% ethanol. *shudders* Nothing is made for that.

The percentage of ethanol in Florida is 10%. There is supposed to be an exemption for marinas because the fiberglass tanks in boats will disintegrate with E10.

Around town i don't notice a lot difference in milage, but highway is a different story. The one thing that is odd is one of the cars has a slight shake at idle on ethanol, the uneven shake like it has a cam in it. Thought it needed a tune but i have talked to a few other people with similar problems.

Have not noticed any problems with the small engines.....yet.

E10 is common in almost all gasoline these days in states that don't meet EPA air quality standards. As I think about it, Oklahoma is the only state I have been in recently that doesn't have to use E10. I actually saw fuel stations advertising what they called "Real Gas". I haven't noticed any trouble with E10 in my small engines yet, but E85 is another story entirely. YMMV

Now ULSFD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) is another story all together. The reformulation of said Diesel (waste by-product of distillation) took a really affordable fuel and drove the price through the roof. Maybe someone can explain that on for me. I was advised by Ford that my 2005 F350 needed an additive to make-up for the sulfur removed from the fuel. Again, YMMV

Maybe a chemist from the Houston area could help on this one???????

Thanks for the heads up on this issue ethanol in small engines. I will also pick up the maintenance parts you suggested.

E85 is ONLY for engines designated for E85. You can't put that into just anything.

I have a Honda generator so, based on Blast's post #1, I visited Honda's web site to see where they stand on the issue. Here's the FAQ on ethanol:



I've had my generator for a few years now and I always run the gas tank dry before storage. I used it last week for the first time in 2-3 years and it started on the second pull. I'm not saying that ethanol won't eventually cause problems but I have seen no evidence of trouble - yet.

Blame the Enviro's. I have a 2005 F350 as well and I have never heard this. Your engine should run fine with the new ULSD. The new engines can't take the old stuff very well, at least '07 and on.

Give this stuff a try. Have fad good results. YMMV EDIT: LINK

Interesting. I had always thought he developed it originally to run on vegetable oil so farmers would have a readily available source of fuel for their equipement. Then I also found this piece. Ammonia for diesel fuel?



http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=52&i=9773

Thanks. We are 'bout ready to buy a Honda 2000, I will look for a few spare parts at the same time...

This is a good point that alot of people probably dont know.. the key to it is dont leave ethanol fuel in the tank.. if you have to run it.. run it dry and fill with regular unleaded..
If you mix fuel for a 2-stroke.. never use ethanol.. the oil separates very very fast causing your engine to run with straight fuel-no oil, which will cause it to burn up

Since all Gasoline is E10 where I am, how do you suggest avoiding ethanol for 2 cycle applications?

Find a small airport nearby that sells aviation gasoline. It isn't allowed to contain any ethanol, but it does cost a $1 or more extra per gallon.

-Blast

Interesting, gasoline in Brazil is e25, and I have been using it in a two stroke Stihl Brushcutter for some years... Could they be made "ethanol resistant" for the Brazilian market?

Fabio

I seem to recall using silicone lines solved the problem, but I'm not a chemist, and I was reading anecdotal evidence. About the only thing about ethanol that I like is never having to worry about the fuel freezing up in the winter - that is nice.

When alcohol was tried as a fuel additive in the 1970s the problem was it would eat the plastic and seals in the carburetors. It was the worst in Ford cars.

They also found high concentrations of alcohol would draw moisture out of the air and separate from the gasoline.
The alcohol also tended to rust steel parts like steel fuel lines instead of protecting them like gasoline or diesel fuel does.

Yet straight alcohol was used as a motor fuel before gasoline was and Henry Ford designed his first Model T cars to run on it.
The early John Deer tractors were like that too.

When you buy fuel line de-icer it is usually methanol.

I was recently reading that modern automobiles, straight from the factory, run perfectly well with gasoline that is 34% alcohol. With some conversion, they can run on 98% alcohol.

Many of the vehicles in Brazil that have been running on alcohol since the 1970s were produced by American auto manufacturers Ford and GM in Brazil.

I also understand that at least these two companies here in the U.S. have routinely been manufacturing flex-fuel vehicles for several years now (certain types, mostly SUVs, I believe). Apparently, our government is the big buyer of them, but anyone can order one, and they are said to cost the same as a straight gasoline vehicle.

Sue

Sue,

Many US made vehicles, particularly GM ones can use E85 (85% Ethanol). Our 2004 Ford Explorer can also use E85 interchangeably with regular gas. E85 is generally cheaper (big gov't subsidy) but you also get reduced fuel economy.

Or were you commenting on other alcohol types?

Mike

Ethanol was what I meant. Personally, I wouldn't mind the tradeoff in less gas mileage in exchange for the cleaner exhaust.

I know the oil companies (assisted by our government) have put out a lot of crap about how bad ethanol is, and how expensive it is, but that is really a lot of nonsense. Anything CAN be made expensively, our Big Brudder has proven that countless times. And anyone who thinks subsidies for ethanol are bad need to be asking why oil companies are running their profits through offshore banks, posting profits of $42 billion per quarter, AND ARE STILL GETTING ENORMOUS SUBSIDIES PAID FOR BY THE TAXPAYERS!

Someone did some figuring of the REAL costs of gasoline (ALL the costs, not just the obvious ones), and the rough estimate was as high as $15/gallon.

Sue

Dollar for dollar, your vehicle will get almost the same distance on E85 and regular unleaded.

Meaning:

If you get 20 MPG on unleaded gasoline that you paid $2.00/gal. You will get 10 MPG on E85, but only pay $1.00.

All numbers are hypothetical.

These were my experiences with multiple vehicles I have rented over various times.

Put that way, it makes more sense. We use it mainly for the reduced emissions. Of course that doesn't take into the consideration of the impact of getting E85 to me. What's the impact of getting gasoline to me compared to E85?

In 2001 Utah County (where I reside)was using 10% ethanol mixed with gas and I put some in our 2 cycle weed eater and proceeded to weed eat and all of a sudden the engine started sputtering and coughing and before I could shut it off there was a huge pop and the engine stopped, took it to a repair shop and was told they were seeing a lot of this sort of thing, 2 cycles don't run to well on ethanol mixed gas,(blew the piston from it getting too hot). In 2004 Utah County applied for and was granted a waiver for NOT using ethanol mixture, I bet they got tired of all the complaints they were getting about it. So now there is no more ethanol in gas as of today (Too many people will complain about it if it's brought back)


Mike

Gee, after I leave UT they outlaw 10% ethanol. I also had a weed eater (Homelite) die around then and bought an ECHO unit from a local shop. Still going strong after 6 yrs!

KY also mandates 10% ethanol and my lawnmower & weed eater are still working fine.