Getting a healthy diet after The Big One

Whatever The Big One is. Here in the San Francisco Bay Area, the big one is a devastating earthquake; in the Gulf region, the big one is a devastating hurricane or two -- you get the picture.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/11/on_moving_towar_1.php

This article is on getting enough protein in a vegetarian diet. I figure here in the Bay Area all the dogs and cats will be eaten fairly quickly, and the wild animal population is less than the human one, so the diets will trend toward vegetarian as time goes by and we're waiting for rescue.

Veggies are more nearly storable than meat and more easily grown if the disaster continues for more than a season (the Really Really Big One).

Insufficient protein usually means insufficient amino acids. If all essential amino acids are not present, vegetable protein cannot be used for growth or maintenance of tissues.

Here's a simple chart for combining vegetables to get a sufficient amount of protein and amino acids:

http://www.weightlossforall.com/protein%20combinations.htm

And even this info may be basing their info on fresh foods, rather than canned or dried, but I don't know for sure.

I would have a plan in place for growing as much food as possible. You may not be able to hold onto all of it without a 24-hour armed guard, though.

Sue

Truth is, most folks consuming a western diet could consume less than a quarter of their current protein intake and still be healthy in the long term (probably healthier)

The Typical Weekly ration for 1 person /week during WW2 in the UK consisted,



Butter: 50g (2oz)
Sugar: 225g (8oz).
Bacon and ham: 100g (4oz)
Margarine: 100g (4oz)
Milk: 3 pints(1800ml) occasionally dropping to 2 pints (1200ml).
Eggs: 1 fresh egg a week.
Tea: 50g (2oz).
Cheese: 2oz (50g)
Sweets: 350g(12oz) every four weeks
Jam: 450g (1lb) every two months.
Dried eggs 1 packet every four weeks.

Fruit and vegetables weren't generally rationed and the diet was supplemented somewhat by Government restaurants and works canteens.

The British population at the time were never fitter than when rationing was in place and when people were producing their own fruit and vegetables.

Generally, when the cats and dogs start dissapearing, then starvation is the name of the game, after which, within a week or two, so do some of the people.

Yet another reason for me not to be in San Francisco.

Reminds me of the movie "I am Legend". Why did he keep trying to get deer? There had to be tons of food in that city. If he could get fuel for vehicles, then there should certainly have been plenty of food left as well. Hunting those darn deer is what got him into trouble.

Apartment custodian just leafblowered the last of a local inconvenience. I am talking fagaceae quercus lobata, aka valley or white oak, the largest oaktree in the world and producer of the single most nutritious food source known to mankind.

At the other end of the spectrum I am looking at a can of corned beef with an expiration date of December 2010.

Before anyone starts contemplating a plan of action for after the supermarkets run out of bearclaws and chocolate milk, using those tricked out Springfield survival rifles on the nieghbor's cat and growing heirloom indian blue corn in San francisco fog: I suggest sitting down with a cold beer and looking at ALL the options; longterm food storage, untapped local resources ( any fellow californian's ever tried Miner's lettuce?)including those rats with wings aka pigeons that a young Eanest Hemingway shot with a slingshot in Paris when they were "young and poor but happy."

I would also take any website with a .com addie with a grain of kosher sea salt. I may BE a treehugger, but I know a marketing and philosophical prejudice when I see one.

Now, I am going to have lunch, with FREE pomegranate seeds from the bush my nieghbor has and gives me weekly. I need to lose some wieght, and I won't do it with expensive South American miracle fruit.

Yep, last night I cooked up a 50 cent bag of lentils with a 30 cent can of petite diced tomatoes and a little onion and cayenne. Ate two bowlfuls, wife managed to get one down, and we put the other half of the potful in the freezer. I was stuffed, but comfortably so. That meal was almost as satisfying as the ribeye steak and butternut squash with petite green beans I had on monday, almost...

I have to admit when I first read the title "Getting a healthy diet after The Big One" I thought the "Big One" you were referring to was a heart attack...

On the serious side, I live in an area though cursed with it's share of backwards idiots most of which hold public office, is also blessed with a wide variety of wildlife and wonderful growing seasons.

Just gotta stock up on some multivitamins to cover those nutrients that we gotta import because they grow better elsewhere.

> That meal was almost as satisfying as the ribeye steak and butternut
> squash with petite green beans I had on monday, almost...

Yeah, right -- almost. :->

> Truth is, most folks consuming a western diet could consume less than
> a quarter of their current protein intake and still be healthy in the long
> term (probably healthier)

That's one of the points they bring up in the article. Getting all our necessary protein vegetarianly isn't as hard as one might expect.

To be honest, after The Big One, I don't think you have much to fear. Why? Well, looking at, say, katrina, how long was food an issue? A week or 2, until MRE distribution points were up and running? I really doubt cats and dogs would be on the menu for most people. Heck, being on the bay, lots of folks might decide to try fishing.

Most of us here would be able to scrounge enough food (AFTER our stocks ran out), to be comfortable for 2 weeks. 2 weeks that might not even dent the pantry for some folks.

Having said that, being in America, a litte forced starvation would probably be a good thing. That spare tire most of us have has a lot more food that we think. "Eating healthy" in limited food situations has more to do with micronutrients than protein, carbs, and fats. For proof, look at most hospitals: any abdominal surgery patients is usually not eating for up to 5 or so days after surgery. A little sugar water (D5 1/2 NS)running during then and they're fine.

Me, I have a case of MRE's, a 5 lbs bag of rice, 6 boxes of Kraft Mac & cheese, and a few Mainstay ration bars. I figure if I need to, I can make a month of that. I'll be hungry and probably 10# lighter on day 30, but I doubt I'll be fighting off any wierd infections or looking like a concentration camp survivor.

In conclusion, don't sweat a "healthy" diet. Any horribly, junk-food, high-fat, high-sodium, high-carb diet you may have will NOT be that big a deal... unless you have some wicked heart failure, blood pressure, or diabetes. A high salt diet could be dangerous in the first 2, and hyperglycemia for short periods isn't usually life threatening for the last.

I used to store Ensure, or Nutren, or similar enteral nutrition products as part of my long term food plan. But they expire too quickly (in my mind) for the cost.

But they do offer a full nutritional spectrum, and you can buy Glucerna or other products specific to your condition (diabetic, pediatric, etc) if necessary.

Carnation Instant Breakfast is essentially a powdered version of the Nestle enteral products, and gives you 5 grams of protien if not using milk, 13 grams with milk used (according to their website).

The other upside to liqid nutrition is the ease in consumption.

If you're looking for "complete" nutrition, I'd just suggest some sort of power bar. While liquid based can be good, they can spill, freeze, etc. And if it's powder based, you of course need more water to "spend" on it.

Speaking of rats with wings, here is almost the single most useful Youtube video I have seen since it's inception:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DaQv1quZMs&feature=related

In the 2-3 weeks it will take to get supplies going in< I'm not really concerned about "healthy", I'm concerned about getting people basic calories. Carbs, fats, whatever, just so long as it can prime their metabolism to burn what they've got stored. I'd be more worried about getting them water.

And I know this makes me sound cold, and mean, and nasty, and a bully, but if I put a steak or lightly carbonized squirrel in front of a vegan who hasn't eaten for two weeks, I'm pretty sure they'll eat it.

Nobody's having my dog for dinner!

Least of all me!

Americans ought to be able to live off their excess girth, spam and canned tuna for sometime.

Then squirrels, maybe.

Blech. Tomorrow I'm buying a couple cases of MoJo bars.

Ironraven,
Have you ever talked diet with a Vegan?
For many it is a deeply held belief system based on personal moral issues.
America, and for that matter many places in the world are becoming multicultural.
Even a standard market will have a few shelves at least dedicated to kosher, asian or latin food specialties.
Organic foods is one of the fastest growing sectors.
Would you accept a filipino balut in an emergency?
How about sweet meats or fish sauce?
Several cultures eat partially digested foods, some ( including western cattlemen) from slaughtered animals, others after picking it up after defecation.
And one might be invited to a funeral feast in some cultures where the meal isn't Aunt Hermione's bunt cake.
To think, people find a can of sardines, Mainstay bars and a jar of tobasco sauce roughing it.

Dated two ovo-lacto vegitarians, and have a friend who is a vegan. Yeah, I've had the conversation. But I'll also point out that no small number of Jews survived the Ghetto because they were willing to eat pork and rat- all scavangers are off limits. Those who wouldn't generally didn't have to worry about the camps.

I'll respect the beliefs of anyone who holds their theo-ethical beliefs higher than their own life. But I won't respect their lack of common sense. And I will have no respect for them if they let their kids die for those lofty principles.

Oh, and Chris, the only reason why there isn't a BBQ sauce recipe in my will is because no one is willing to serve me after I'm dead. To me it makes sense.

I was full on vegan for 2 years, not for any belief system in my case, but to try it out and to lose weight.

I lost weight. The metabolic change, I'm sure, plus the lack of animals fats (I didn't even eat cheese), and I was more physically active in my youth.

When I was done, I think I lived on beef for the next 2 years. I actually craved it. And I found every pound I lost and then some.

I guess the moral for me was, I could live without meat, but I sure missed it.

My wife is from another land, and the stuff her and her family eats sometimes just amazes me, both in composition and source. I consider myself a squeamish food experimenter, but I would definitely empty her sister's fridge if no alternative.

And, if any Filipino neighbors offer, eat that balut, selamat, very much. But not now, neither on a dare nor to be neighborly- ecch.

If you look around any city, even, NYC, there is plenty of protein to be found among the critters that live there, if you are willing to consider them a fod source. Strangled rat is not my ideal meal, and I'd need to be real hungry to eat it. However, I like knowing it's there, available, in case.

Pigeon is something that I'd prefer over rat, and I think one might be able to capture pigeons and treat them as one might other domesticated birds. Maybe, you'd rather have pigeon eggs than no eggs.

Any of these would need to be for very long term scenarios. I don't see such events in the U.S.'s near future. It could be a choice for someone low on other resources, out of work, no money, etc., but as far as a resource for a community, I think food will be brought in within a week, nevermind the 3 weeks over which most of us can survive.

As far as a resource to store to ensure you have a pretty healthy diet, as in one that provides the minimum amount of protein, calories, vitamins and minerals, it is tough to beat things like Mainstay bars. They were designed to be a person's sole source of nutrition for a pretty long period of time, because they were desiigned to be the food you put in a ship's lifeboat.

I am curious. Some of you are from NYC, and I've never been there. Wikipedia says it has over eight million people (all five boroughs) and an area of 305 sq. miles.

If some major calamity hit there that didn't kill a heavy percentage of people, but cut off most access, how long do you think it would take for food and water (etc) to be distributed to most of the population there?

To me, it seems an almost insurmountable situation.

Thoughts?

Sue

Yes, it would be a daunting task. Any threat to New Yorkers has a potential to just by being a threat create disaster.

I believe most people think New York would be evacuated in anticipation of any disaster. I don't know if and how possible that is, in large part because most New Yorkers have no cars and would need to rely on methods of mass transportation. About half of the households in NYC have no cars, and within Manhattan about 70% do not have cars. Any attempt to evacuate is going to really tax our the transportation system. Not sure how many people can be evacuated. Leave early.

As much as transportation is an issue, many New Yorkers will have no place to go or no place that is easy for them to get to. So the evacuees may be forced into some very impromptu refugee facilities.

Water is one of the better systems in NYC. If you live in a low enough building, the water is probably going to come in. IN a high rise, the lack of electricity will stop water from being pumped high enough.

Food and recreating a food supply network, heck that could take years. However, I think being able to holdout for a few weeks changes the whole game for anyone. If you make it past the first three weeks, you might be one of very few people around.

Any disaster large enough to threaten a large portion of New Yorkersis also bound to be a threat of some who live near but not in NYC. The metro area has something like 35 Million people.

My supplies would allow DW and myself to bug in for at least a week, and then water becomes an issue. Food will hold out for about a month. I have to think that by then, I would be one of a few New Yorkers or a system would be up and running.

The real decision is when and how to leave.

Sue,
WAY back when, a then co-worker (and now current friend) actually started a novel about NYC - in particular, Manhattan Island (Pop 1.5 milion 22 square miles) getting cut off by terrorists (we stopped right after the first WTC bombing - hit a tad too close to home)

The estimates we could come up with is that the stores would be stripped bare somewhere between 48 and 72 hours. The outer boroughs (Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island) would do somewhat better, and ironically, the Bronx (which IS attached to the mainland) would do worse, simply because I think there are 1-2 supermarkets in the whole Bronx (at the time there were NONE). The Bonx is basically fed by corner markets (Bodegas) and small markets that would have been called a supermarket years ago. Most of the supermarkets were burned out during the blackout of 1977, and never returned

Water is another story - NYC does fairly well on water - most of it's water comes in deep "pressure tunnels" - there are 3 (the third is about 50% finished, but carrys water to at least 2 of the boroughs already - the largest non federally funded public works in history). One GOOD thing, as I've pointed out before, at least at street level, NYC water is NOT pumped, but is gravity fed, and depending on the neighborhood, will/can pressure feed to about the 4-5 floor. The PROBLEM is buildings taller than that - they must (and do) have their own water tanks - with varing capacities vs pump sizes for the building - bigger the tank for the size of the building, the lower the pump capacity to keep the tank topped off - remember that the pump needs to be able to handle peak flow over the time needed to drain the water tank, not absolute peak flow. I was involved in providing Radio Comms during the 2003 blackout. There was only a few buildings that totally lost water, and if the residents were willing to walk to street level, water was available. The big issue then becomes people who CAN'T walk down, in buildings where people won't help each other.

One "funny" issue that happened at one building I went to - it was oh - 6 hours after power was back, and they were just getting water - it seems that a LARGE percentage of the residents of that building turned on their water faucets/tubs/showers etc and left them on to "Know when water came back" - of course, we now have a greater than normal peak flow condition, with an empty water tank - everyone was getting a trickle, and the tank could not fill because the pump alone could not keep up with demand. Part of what we had to do was help management go door to door and convince folks to turn off their faucets/showers etc for about 60 minutes, so they could get a part tank of water up on the roof

I'm of the opinion that you can do anything you want, but there are always consequences. A true adult takes responsibility for their actions. Given a choice between doing something morally repugnant to you and doing something that may end your life, its up to you not me to make that choice. Nor am I required to make that choice easier for you. Having very few religious or moral inhibitions on my diet (animals that live as pets can expect to die as pets being the major one), I have to go off of what I can force down my throat. For now, the list of things I can't is very short.

There is, for good reason, a strong human taboo against corprophagy. I don't know that I could over come that. Rats and pigeons are a potential disease source. But so are quail and rabbit, both of which I've eaten with relish (that is enthusiastically, I think I ate them with gravy). Balut and sweet meats are both delicacies in their respective regions of the world. I'd give them a shot. Heck, I might get the chance to try balut if I take a trip to the Philippines while I'm stationed here. If I do, I'll let everyone know how it tastes.

As for the original idea, getting enough nutrition over a longer term. Its really not that difficult. Between potatoes and milk, a person can survival almost indefinitely. Neither potatoes or goats are all that difficult to raise, and potatoes at least can be stored in a fashion that makes them very difficult to steal. Right in the ground where they were grown. Then there's always the three sisters: corn, beans and squash. A small garden, slightly over grown to disguise how bountiful it is, will keep away the black horseman for a long time.

Umm, you may not like to find this out, but there are places where the NYC water supply mains are within 3 feet of the surface. Not all of the line is deep rock tunnel.

Net daily consumption on the NYC water supply in whole is somewhere just over 1.1 billion gallons per day. One of the deep rock mains is leaking over 1.1 million gallons per day. The good news is the source will never dry up or run out.

When I found out about the shallow lines and their location, I was quite alarmed. The supply still remains quite vulnerable to terrorist activity, should any of them become smart enough to capitalize on such knowledge.

That I know - I used to wn property where Tunnel 2 was directly in back under shallow cover (Across the street from the Old Atwood Schoolhouse) - that said, it'd be hard to take out the whole system - too much redundancy, and there is a LOT of water

I gotta think that those with the best chance of survival become omnivores, if they aren't already. I'll eat grass, ants, and grubs if I have to, I've done it before, and I prefer mine with tabasco sauce. I won't do Armadillo again, I can't get hungry enough to stomach it I guess, and I've tried, at least not the way it was prepared the last time I tried to eat it. I don't know as I could get a spider down either, but if others around me were I might be able to. I'm not quite the omnivore that Bear is, but I am no stranger to hunger.