Another 12v Power Question

Earlier this year I transformed an old shed into a chicken coop, and now have restored an old nieghboring horse stall/tack room into a pig pen w/ store room. My dilema is that there is no power to these two buildings and they are several hundred feet from our AC power at the house.

I am looking for a reasonably low cost solution for creating a 12v power source using a used PV solar panel, descent sized deep cycle AGM 12v battery, and 12v lighting in the three spaces (coup, pen, storage room). I will also need the capability to have a timer on the coup lighting so that we can extend the chicken's laying through the winter - and hopefully some motion sensor exterior lights.

I am having a hard time pulling the resources together to make this happen.

Any recommendations on how I can make this happen?

Thanks, as always, for your insight and recommendations.

I`ll be following this as we will need to do the same soon too

Where are you in the foothills?

For less than the cost of the batteries you could rent a ditch-witch, drop in a run of #10UF cable, set a small six circuit 240v MLO panel, set a two-pole 20A CB in the house end and a couple of 15A CBs for 120v circuits on the shed end.

I would have to run the numbers to confirm the wire size but 15A on #10 at 200' each way sounds about right. Simple enough to do the calculation but it is late.

Two 15A circuits would give you all the lights you could want and a circuit for tools, a small space heater in the winter, a fan in the summer. A lot simpler and reliable than messing with batteries that will need replacement, solar panels, chargers and all the rest.

You can rig a solar setup on the house where you can more easily mess with it.

Doing that, I'd want some kind of conduit. A woodchuck that chomps down a wire thinking it is a root is a rather impressive thing.

How about the low voltage out door yard lights, I think they are 12 volt, I do not think I have seen any 12 volt timers.
If you go with a 12 Volt set up I would also invest in a inverter so you could run small power tools in the coop if needed, probality 400 watt would do, I would assume that if you where doing and heave work you would runn an extenstion from the house or use a generator.

The simplest and probably least expensive way to do it is to look for one of the better yard pathway solar lighting systems these have sensors to come on at night and turn off during the day. And charge during the day. If all you want is light, these seem like the best way to do.


But if you want more power a 45 watt solar panel & charge controller from Harbor Freight ($180.00 on sale about every other month, normally $249.00) and a battery. Then look for a 12-volt LED light that comes on at night.

ToddW - We live in the area outside of Grass Valley.

The terrain, fencing, very rocky soil, and existing irrigation lines would make it very difficult for the 200' run to bring power to this spot. The Ditch Witch is also too small a unit to be effective in our area givin the soil conditions.

I will check out Harbor Frieght for the sale Bob S mentioned. I assume I can find some standard RV/TT light fixtures that could be used with LED lights. The chickens don't need all night light, so I need to find, or at least create, a timer system that would come on at 5AM and run until sun up - this would be enough to keep them laying through winter.

Has anyone seen and 12v motion sensor lights?

In my experience very few animals actually will bite into a live line. I have seen gopher tortoises and both moles and gophers dig around them but I have never seen them do any real damage. once saw where a tortoise dug around a pole and cased it to fall over. Generally if you plant them 24 inches deep the only real and probable risk is humans. And if someone comes at it with a Ditch-Witch, backhoe or PHD odds are a conduit, anything less than RMC and a lot of luck, doesn't do you any good.

Of course if the ground is solid rock poles or skyhooks are the way to go.

I wouldn't worry about any irrigation or water lines. Usual plan is to figure out the type and size, lay in a supply of pipe and repair fittings and just count on running the Ditch-Witch through them. You chose your route to avoid the bulk of those you know about. No need to make more work. But in the end water line repairs are quick, easy and cheap. I don't even hand dig around them unless I can do it in a minute or two. I just try to hit them square so the damaged sections are short and make sure I know where the isolation valves are so they don't flood my ditch.

In my admittedly slim experience with running electrical lines underground, local codes required that the line be in conduit, and something like 18" below the surface...

You mean I can't hang them from branch to branch Darn!

Off the shelf lighting system at cabela's shed light

Thanks for the great information. I have looked over the many ideas presented.

The Cabela's Shed Light is a good option for KISS - and I may use one of their outdoor motion sensor lights.

The Harbor Freight kit seems a bit under powered for my needs (there is a great thread at www.homesteadingtoday.com covering the Harbor Freight kit from earlier this year).

I went into one of our local Solar Sales and Installation businesses. One of their system designers greeted me, shook my hand, and after I told him of my simple needs he immediately roughed out numbers well up and over $1,000 with 2 panels, high end equipment, the works! Kinda the 'Tim the Tool Man' approach - "What we need here is MORE POWER!" Yeah...I won't be contacting them again.

One avenue I am persuing further is another local company (that does ship across the country) called Pacific Renewables. They primarily sell used solar panels at about 1/3 the cost of new. I am looking at purchasing from them a used 80W panel, decent quality new charge controler, mounting rack, and wiring from panel to charge controler for about $350.00. That's pretty close to Harbor Freight's retail price for their kit with a far stronger panel and a superior charge controler. The rest of the set up will be the same using either system - battery, interior wiring, and light fixtures.

To get the quantity of lights I need from Cabela's I would have to spend about $400, including shipping.

To go the hard-wire route from the house, I would easliy be up to $1,000 building to code (with or without a permit) - so that is not an option.

Any more thoughts or ideas on this project would be more than welcomed!

Hope you find a system that works for you, in the meantime thanks for mentioning Pacific Renewables, sounds like a great deal for their used equipment. I've already bookmarked their site for some future plans I've got.

John E

Just a quick clarification as there are two very similarly named websites.

The company I spoke with and am looking to purchase a system from is at www.pacificrenewablesgroup.com and is based in Northern California, the other website is based in Hawaii.

FYI - I am not affiliated with this company, nor have I purchased anything from them yet.

Thanks, I did get some interesting possibilities when I did a google search for pacific renewables but I found the correct one.

Let us know when/if you do buy one of their systems, it sounds like a very good deal compared to a lot of other solar equipment I've been pricing.

John E

Great News!

I have the system installed and it is up and running fine.

The package I purchased from Pacific Renewables Group cost $350.00 and included a used 80w Solec panel (made in the USA!), Morningstar Charge Controler, mounting brackets, and 15' of out door 10 guage wire. I ended up setting the panel on a post about 75' away from the outbuildings as the southern exposure was so much better there. I purchased three RV/TT 12v dc dual dome light fixtures from a local parts and service department at a local RV dealership(I will replace the incandescent bulbs with leds eventually). The lights went into the pig pen bedding area, storage room, and chicken coop. I found a great 12v timer from www.super-feed.com . The model number is the TS-08 (about $80 delivered). It can function at 6v or 12v dc and switches on (and off) the lights in the chicken coop each morning at 4:30AM (and off at 7:20AM). This should keep us with eggs all winter! Last I found two 12v dc fans at www.wholesalemarine.com which I installed in the pig pen. They were about $20 a piece delivered (there were several comparable online options, but this one ended up with my business). There were another $200 in electrical wiring, conduit, switches, etc. and $75 for a 105ah deep cycle marine battery which came from a local auto parts store. My budget was waning, so I opted not to spend the additional $100+ on an AGM battery.

One step I added, at the recommendation by the folks at Pacific Renewables Group, was an in-line 15 amp fuse between the battery and my junction box for my fixtures. This should protect the fixtures should the battery ever go squirelly. The charge controller has a built in fuse between the panel and the battery, so the system is reasonably well protected.

I still may purchase one of the motion sensor lights from Cabela's and tie it into my system.

I'll try to post some pictures tomorrow.

Wow sounds awesome.

Looking forward to pictures

OK, so this is a pretty dumb question...but...how do I upload photos?

I'ld like to upload them off my computer, but the 'enter an image' option wants me to link a photo from a url.

Thanks for the help.

You have to have a place on-line to store them, most internet service providers give you some storage space for this. Contact your provider and ask if they have space for you and then ask how to upload them. Everyone is different so we can’t tell you how to do this, you need to go to your provider.

The second part is to link to the picture you want to show. To do this, once uploaded go look at the picture and when it’s on your screen, right click on it use the “copy image location" tab. Then when you make a post, go to the full reply screen and the 4th box over from the left above the reply area, click on it and I then click on the first line in the pop-up menu (insert a non floating image) then paste the address in the box.


To check it click on preview post to get a look at your post before you actually post it.

If your provider does not offer hosting space, or you just don’t feel like going that route, there are several web sites that are specifically designed to host images for forum and blog posting. The ones I see used most frequently are TinyPic, ImageShack, and Photobucket. TinyPic and ImageShack do not even require you to register an account to host an image with them. There are also several other sites that do the same thing, although their names and URLs are not coming to me right now. Check them out and see which one suits you best.

One thing to think about with on-line photo storage is to make sure you have a backup. I have on-line friends that had photos stored on a free site and the site disappeared on them if you are not paying for it, you can’t expect it to be there forever. All that storage, drive space and associated hardware and net access & bandwidth cost money. If they are not making money somehow, it’s kinda hard to keep the doors open.



TNSTAAFL

Thanks for the help. I ended up at Photobucket - which was quick and easy.

So here's the photos:

First is a shot of the solar panel with the Pigpen and chicken coop off in the back ground (and my 2 1/2 year old helper):



Then here's a shot of the store room electrical set up: You can see the charge controler (upper left corner w/ green light on), then the deep cycle marine battery (lower left), then the junction box from the battery to the fixtures (center middle), the timer for the lights in the chicken coop (upper center), and switches for the pig pen fans and lights:



Here's one of the pig pen; you can see the lights, one of the fans - the other is just out of the photo, and a pass through to the storage room in the lower left:



Last, but not least is a shot of the chiken coop light:



Please let me know what you think - any suggestions, modifications would be greatly appreciated.

Looks good, all the wiring looks to be secured well and organized.


A few suggestions for improvements.

If the system has any fuses I would figure out some kind of mounting bracket to have spares there for a quick fix without having to go hunting for them. Also a flashlight mounted on the wall with a quick release of some type would be nice. Again so you don’t have to go hunt it up.

I would put the paperwork in a zip lock bag to protect it. And label the switches with a stick on label. And maybe a kill switch on the positive side of the battery.

Hi NorCalDennis,

Your Solar setup looks pretty darn good. The only thing I can suggest would be to put the battery in its own wooden box, to ensure that there are no exposed terminals to prevent accidental shorting of the terminals, but that is just a minor point. The angle of the Solar Panel looks a bit low. For your location a 45 degree angle would probably increase your solar cell efficiency. Also it might be worthwhile digging a concrete post into the ground and securing your expensive Solar Panel more securely to stop it from dissapearing over night.

You must have been quiet pleased after the big switch on after wiring it all up.

The system looks good.
Are you useing #10 wire from the PV to the charge controler ?

This is a great post.

We got to follow the project from concept to completion.

I suspect, like me there were several of us out here just lurking and monitoring the progress and going I could use this info in my own setup.

I find this type of post very valuable and with the pics as an added bonus.

How much power would you be able to pull off that setup? if you needed to could you leave the fans and light on over night?

Congrats on your successful set up.

Bob S - There is an in-line 15a fuse between the battery and the fixtures. It's located in the junction box to the fixtures, and I will tape the box of spares to the top of the junction box (great idea!) - I planned on marking the switches, and bagging up the paperwork is another great idea that I will do.

Am Fear Liath Mor - The panel is set far from the view of a passer-by. The gravel road behind the gate in the distance of my first picture is a dead end road with just a couple of neighbors down there. They would have to look real hard to see the panel. I am considering putting a chain link or barbed wire fence around the 3.6kw of panels we have in our front pasture - those are visible, and with the cost of solar going up, it could be a theft just waiting to happen.

CAP613 - Yes, I did use a 100' roll of 10 gauge wire. The wire is in conduit from the panel to inside the pigpen/store room. I was expecting to have at least 20' left over, but barely had 7 feet by the time I pulled the line. I am pretty content to have a single line from the panel to the charge controler (no splices, connections, or junction boxes)

Sir Joel - I didn't sit down and calculate the math of how long I could run all the items together. In the winter, with the battery fully charged, the system should be able to perform it's needed functions for a week without sunlight (5 hours of light to the chicken coop per day and occasional light in the store room and pig pen) Summer should be no problem running the fans during the heat of the day and lights in the evening. The panel should be able to maintin a full battery charge and run the fans during the day. I do plan to switch the lights from incadescent to leds too, and that will greatly reduce the load of the light fixtures on the battery.

Thanks for all the input as this project came together. It would not have turned out the way it did if not for the great information learned from this sight. You're all as much a part of the success of this project as I am as it was your ideas and input that helped it all come together!

Is there a low voltage cut off to protect the battery from too deep of a drain?

You can damage batteries and greatly shorten their life if you deep cycle them too far down or too many times.

I was reading back a little insted of a wooden box for the battery perhaps a cooler would be better, it would help keep the battery warm in the winter, and being somewhat air tight would help keep any out gassing under control.

I would be interested in knowing how much voltage drop you have from the PV to the charge controler. I am in a situation where I will need to run about 100' between a PV location and where my battery is. I was thinking about going with #6 or #8 wire but if I can use #10 it makes it even more pratical.

Bob S - There is a low voltage warning light on the Charge Controller, but not a shut off. I do have a 1000w sine wave generator that I can use to charge the battery should that light come on (& a 7500w B&S generator - seen in picture - if I need more power).

CAP613 - I have not checked to see if there is much voltage drop with the 10 guage wire. In describing my set up with the folks at Pacific Renewables Group, their recommendation was to use 10 Guage wire. So far, as soon as any light hits the panel the green 'charging' light comes on the controller, so I am guessing that the drop is minimal - but I will check just to be sure. The storage room has very open ventilation (you can see day light above the battery), so I left the battery open with the expectation that any gassing would be quickly dispursed rather than contain it.

Off gassing is a byproduct of charging, it can be reduced by a lower amperage charge (a solar panel is a low amperage charge) and special battery caps to reduce the venting even more. But it can’t be stopped 100% and the last thing you want to do is seal up a deep cycle battery (ok to do with AGM & gel-cells) and let the gas build up.

I’m almost 50 now, but when I was 17-years old (give or take a year) I was working on a ford car in the yard, the hood was up and I was putting a new start solenoid on it. The solenoid was about 6-inches from the battery and I did not disconnect the battery first. It sparked and ignited the hydrogen gas and blew the top off the battery and acid flew everyplace. My face included. I had glasses on so it saved my eyes and I ran to the house and washed it all off very fast. Other then a little stinging and a bad taste in my mouth for a while there was no harm done (thank god I had glasses on) If the gas can travel in an open yard with the hood of the car up, it can do it even more so in a closed up and wind protected area. Be careful.

Since this time I have had a more then health respect for battery off gassing and acid.

It’s not something to do ½ way. Do it right and follow all safety procedures.

I was thinking in a more inclosed enivroment, useing the cooler to control the spred of the gas then a vent to get it to the out side, sorry I did not explain that.

I thought I would chime in with a quick update on this solar system.

After a couple of weeks the lights seemed to be dimming and after a day and a half of overcast the battery crashed. What I realized is that I purchased the battery from an autoparts store, hooked it up, and left it alone. I had no idea what kind of charge the battery had when I installed it, nor did I know how much power we were getting from the Solar each day.

So, I purchased a battery charger (which I needed anyway) and a battery minder volt meter which I attached near the battery. Since the battery was given a full charge, the solar is keeping the battery at a full charge (not lower than 12.8v in the AM {after the timer had lights on starting at 4:30AM} and a finish charge at sunset of 13.25v). And, this is occuring while I am still using the 8w incandescent bulbs, the LED's should be here in the next few days - and that will certainly reduce the load demands by 75%. I am guessing at this point, but the LED's should allow the system to work well through several days of cloudy weather and not need the battery charger.

All in all, I am very happy with the system - it is working as it is supposed to, and our chickens continue to lay eggs after the Autumnal equinox (which they didn't do last year). Having ample light in an area that didn't have power before is also a big plus. Provided the battery is able to keep a decent charge from the Solar, the system is pretty much maintenance free (well, occasional battery fluid checks).

Thanks again for all your input - it really helped me along with this project.

Nice update, I was just about to bump this topic and ask how it was working.

Please be sure and let us know how the leds work out.

SPAM

Reminds me of the trouble we got into with our solar powered alarm systems out at the Hanford Nuclear Reservation a few years back. It seems that under the worst conditions (sub-freezing temps, overcast skies for days), the battery systems would deplete enough that the voltage on the control panel would crowbar the system into alarm mode. Imagine having to team up around the clock to run generators to batt chargers to bring the batteries in 35 remote systems back to life. Pretty bad when you have Rad alert sirens going off up and down the Columbia and all points in between. Can you say pucker factor?

It gives the foil hatters something to talk about.

Another, and probably last update on this set up...

The LED's did arrive, but I found their light output to be too dim. When I asked the folks at www.superbrightleds.com about this I was informed that the light fixtures can range from a 5 to 8 watt equivilent - It certainly appeared that they were much closer to 5 watts than 8 - the output was no where near the 8w incandescents that they were replacing. So I sent them back. I may look at different light fixtures at a later date that could handle larger LED bulbs.

I also spoke to my conact at Pacific Renewables group about the concern of loss due to the legnth of 10 guage wire from the panel to the charge controller (about 90+ feet). While he acknowledged that there is a decent loss at that legnth, their Solec panels are rated for 12v or 24v use and at the peak of the day are kicking out about 19 to 22 volts - so even with the loss I am experiencing with my 10 guage wire, it is not enough to keep from fully charging the battery - given my set up and needs.

We did have our first real storm pass through a week or so ago where we had no direct sun for about 36 hours and mostly cloudy days on both sides of the rainy days. The solar set up worked flawlessly through the whole four to five days. I never saw the battery minder drop below 12.6v, and there were mostly cloudy days where the battery minder was showing a charge coming from the panel (not a 14.4v like I see most sunny days, but 13.6v was sure looking pretty good to me). Our chickens continue to give us eggs every day, and having all that light in the storage shed and pig pen sure makes getting the pigs in at night a much easier task than fumbling around with a flashlight!!!

While I have never used their products before, nor do I work for them, I can't say enough good things about www.super-feed.com who provided the timer for the chiken coop lights and www.pacificrenewablesgroup.com for their solar set up. Both had excellent customer service to match what I am experiencing to be very good products. The folks at www.superbrightleds.com were very helpful too, and have a very good - no hassle return policy. When I look to do more LED's in the future, I will be contacting them first, and find fixtures to meet their lights.

Thanks again for all your input!

Just bumping this thread to see if NorCalDennis can give us a post 1st winter update.

Overall the system worked very well - and served all of our needs for the area it is serving.

A couple of upgrades will be:

Change battery to a better quality, eg. two 6v golf cart batteries in series - possibly AGM. The bargain basement 12v one I purchased doesn't cut it very well - especially after a year of use. I've had to recharge the battery on a couple of occasions, and added distilled water to keep the levels up. I know it kinda general maintenance stuff, but it happened more frequently than I expected.

Add some conduit for wiring from the battery to the fixtures. It appears that the resident rat/mouse population chewed through a couple of the wires disabling the fans in the pig pen.

Change to better quality 12v light fixtures. A couple of the sockets shorted out (probably from the dust factor), and they are not good fixtures for LED replacement bulbs.

These were pretty minor improvments for an otherwise great winter. Lights worked when we needed them to, and the timer kept our chickens laying right through the winter.

If only it would power a 'predator eradication system' - NOW that would make it the perfect system. We had an ever present problem with coyotes trying to thin the flock.

Glad it worked overall

We had a fox snooping around our empty coop this AM.

Thanks. Glad to hear it worked well and your update has saved all of us who admired your plan some sage advice from someone who has BTDT. (been there, done that)

Good stuff. Thanks.