Precious metals?

This thread started under the "Diapers?" thread which drifted into the subject of trade goods in general and precious metals in particular. Some of this post is a reposting of what was said there but with a few clarifications and expanded upon. Precious metals are a subject that often crops up in survival discussions and one that seemed to deserve its own thread.



Show up on my doorstep with little slips of what you say is gold, and fine gold at that, and I will value it as I would any fishing sinker. Show up with what you say are silver coins and I will give you the face value.

It would be imprudent to do otherwise. Because, in the end, how do I know it is really gold. There are several modern metals that look remarkably like gold. How do I know its purity? How do I know the current market value of gold if communications are down? For all I know gold went to $10 last night.

Some testing shows that presently a lot of the jewelry getting sold as high concentration gold are much less pure than marked. A very old trick that is hard to detect even in peaceful and well ordered times. People get desperate and you can be assured frauds will proliferate.

All that is even more true of silver where look-alike materials are more common and both testing and purity is harder to check.

A metals dealer can effectively test what your offering to make sure it is what you say it is and the purity marked. They have the test kit (appropriate reagent, scratch stone and comparison needles) and can draw strong conclusions. I would be guessing. So, to protect my investment and material goods, I would give you a much lesser fall back offer. Take it or leave it.

Of course buying precious metals has been pushed hard by people dealing in, or invested in, such materials. Which raises the price and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of increasing price.

A rundown of silver investing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_as_an_investment
Also look into the link to "Silver Thursday" and The Hunt brothers who tried to corner the silver market.

This is not much different than real estate. The truth of markets is that everything it worth what someone will give you for it. And, for some, anything worth doing is worth cheating at.

I wouldn't be sure what your offering is what you say it is. And even then I really have no real direct and practical use for gold. So the price I'm willing to pay will be quite low.

Like travelers in hard times before noted you may be better off offering your labor and/or skill set to get what you need.




First, according to the spot check on the NY market silver is at $17.56 as of 1000 on 08/01/08. Which means your $1.50 handling fee is better than 8% (8.54% actually) of the current price of that round. From a purely financial standpoint, and seeing as that if you turned around and sold it back your likely to lose another 8%, by buying that silver your about 16% behind the power curve to start with. While there have been peaks in the middle the one-year increase in silver has only been about 4$, roughly 22%, and trending down over the last few months.

Just as comparison a good sized stock purchase can be had for about 3% of the purchase price. Much less if you buy in larger quantities and go with a broker that charges not on the size of the purchase but on a flat-fee, per transaction, basis. Then the transaction will run you between $5 and $25, depending on the details, regardless of size.

That doesn't mean your wrong to buy it. Not if your keeping abreast of these figures, are fully aware of the risks, and have incorporated all this into your wider strategy. I'm sure your aware of all of this but a lot of people are getting into the precious metals market without being aware of the costs of transactions, the simple fact that, as with every other market, prices can go down, and often it is the middle men who profit most in both selling and buying.

Second, whereas those rounds are marked as 99% pure that may not mean as much as it seems. Unless your willing to have each piece tested for purity, a process that may cost more than the price of the piece itself for a detailed analysis, your really depending on the reputation of the dealer.

Any good sized jeweler can economically recast precious metals, and, if they were inclined to steal, make a good bit on profit in the process. It is simple enough to add base metals to the mix and make a quick profit on people buying misidentified precious metals.

This is not new. The risk has been with mankind for thousands of years. The biting of gold coins, a practice that predates Christianity, was a crude but effective way of testing a gold coin for purity. Pure gold is quite soft and a tooth will make a substantial mark on it. Alloyed gold is typically much harder and the mark will be much less pronounced.

Silver, because of its lower price, is not a major target for this sort of small-time fraud. Gold, on the other hand, can be quite profitable to recast. Even more so when the risk is low because transactions can be made over the internet and completed through the mail. Web sites and dealers can come and go very rapidly. Finding out your stockpile is less than it seems can be frustrating when there is no way to seek redress.

My point here is to point out that even if the coin, round or ingot is clearly marked there is no really simple way to make sure it is what it seems to be. For now, a relatively settled time, counterfeit metals are a real problem but not one often talked about. For now the faith and confidence in reputable dealers, and their assurances that they wouldn't resell anything less than what they claim, even if they get burned occasionally, is enough of a reassurance that the markets stay happy.

This reassurance working against the long history of remelting precious metals and rumors that there are large numbers of sophisticated remelters in the middle east, Thailand, and India.

An interesting note claiming some people are finding that their silver is such a poor fraud that it is magnetic:
http://www.urbansurvival.com/ld2000.htm

If they can get away with selling silver stuffed with iron, enough to make the piece attract a magnet it makes me wonder about how many rounds and ingots are slightly more sophisticated frauds. It is stamped .999 pure but if it was only 80% would you know?

What if a good proportion of the assumed pure gold and silver that has been stockpiled is shown to be much less pure than advertised. What if the large dealers were aware of this and seeking to monetize their losses, and lock in their profits, by getting the small investors, who are less likely to have their purchases assayed or ask difficult questions, into the market. Generally, the the more something looks like a sure thing and small investors are being pulled into a market the more likely the market price is to be shown to be based on fraud and the more likely the market is to crash.

Gold and silver are not immune to these trends. Fraud in precious metals has been a problem for thousands of years. It is interesting to see that modern investors in precious metals have seem to be less aware of this. They are not certainly risk free even in well regulated markets and settled times and I think it is fair to say that in the event of a protracted major economic calamity and disruption of civil society we could see a breakdown of confidence in precious metals and the ability to use them for exchange.

Let the buyer beware.

I have always thought that purchasing precious metals to use for trade goods was not a good idea. If you can’t eat it, use it for heat, use it to keep surviving it’s no real value to me in a survival situation. How would you make a trade with it? 1 oz is $1000.00 Even if the person believed your 1-oz was in fact 1-oz of gold that would be a lot of trade goods he or she could use to survive just to give up for a coin sized piece of metal that had no value till a social structure (the money market) was restored.

100 pounds of food and a Coleman (or even a Hobo stove and some twigs) stove and a $30.00 tent is worth more then 100 pounds of gold. In almost every survival situation I can think of there is no way to buy things and turn that gold into food or supplies. Gold is only worth something because the market says it is, no market, it’s not worth more then lead. Once the market gets restored or it becomes available to you, gold then is again worth something.


How would you buy food right now with everything up and running fine (or what passes for fine) you can’t take your 1-oz gold coins or bars and buy clothes, fuel or food. My guess you have to send it someplace and have it tested and once the test confirm it’s gold (I’m sure this takes time) then sell it and possibly the buyer will want to test it again himself, then issue you a check or money transfer. I could see it taking weeks or even a few months to sell a few ounces of gold and actually have cash in your hand to buy things.




I can see gold and silver for future hedge on the US economy going south somewhat, As long as there is some kind of structured economy it’s going to allow you to buy things once you go through the time consuming sales process. I also see that some would use it for a retirement nest egg and it would work for this as there is no immediate need for money here. Personally I think there are better things then gold for this.

I don’t see society’s complete failure as a big concern as I think it’s a very remote possibility despite Hollywood’s love for it in the movies. But if there were ever a complete collapse of society, gold becomes a very heavy thing to lug around and will have tied up a very large amount of your capital that could have went other places.

Agreed. In a military SERE kit, particularly if you might be able to buy your way out, it might have a place. But USDs and Euros will probably work to.

The only gold we have, or care about, is our wedding rings. Fact being stranger than fiction, it was also my dad's ring. And my wife is wearing my mom's wedding rings...

IMHO, and obviously a minority in some circles, I have always thought that simple gold wedding bands showed more class and seriousness than any of the gaudy and overbuilt rings I have seen. It always makes me think they are covering their doubts by doing too much and going too far. Often a sign of an impending failure.

Being generally well informed your probably well aware that up until the 40s diamonds were a very small specialty market and most Americans didn't own any. That the popular view of diamonds as glamorous was a result of a Madison Avenue marketing campaign paid for by De Beers.

The link between diamonds and sex, diamonds as proof of love and commitment, the idea you prove your seriousness by offering a ring priced at three months of income are all straight out of this advertising campaign. The famous lines "Diamonds are forever" and "Diamonds are a girl's best friend" were inserted into the popular consciousness by movies and advertising under the direction of a marketing firm.

It is interesting how ideas can be manufactured, pushed and, in time, become part of the popular world view while the public simply forgets that the idea was part of a marketing campaign designed to sell a product for which few have any real use.

I don't wish to be too negative about precious metals or gemstones as an investment or hedge against inflation. As long as everyone is well aware of the mechanics and risk, independent of the marketing, hype and mythology, I have no problem with people getting into these areas.

What bothers me is the idea that somehow gold, silver, diamonds, what have you, are independent from and immune to the same market forces, manipulation, hype and mythology that all other markets are subject to. That if you Google gold or silver you get thousands of sites, almost all created by people selling these materials and gushing with enthusiasm, telling you that precious metals and gems are great investments with little risk or down side.

That you have to really dig to find any mention of the risk, an even-handed discussion of these materials being subject to market forces that can be manipulated, that prices can both soar and crash, the methods and risk of fraud in the market, or anything that questions the ability of a person to get their investment out without getting sunk by fees or depending on syndicates and major dealers.

In my experience any market where enthusiasm for getting people into it greatly exceeds the documented ability to make a profit and get out of the market is a dangerous sign of instability and a possible crash. Biomed, high-tech stocks, savings and loans, real estate, financial services, and many others followed this pattern. In my experience when a great majority are pushing an investment as a sure thing it is a very good time to stop, and think long and hard about running the other way.

Anytime a "sure thing" is being advertised on radio and/or TV, one can be assured that a sucker's bet is being played on all who are gullible enough to bite!

Speaking of diamonds, long long ago I was engaged to the wrong girl. I got the ring back, and, being in the service and short of cash, I took it back to the high end jewlery store where I bought it (paying much more than I could afford, they shamed me into it), hoping for some bucks. The same guy who sold it to me, looking down his nose, informed me that "we don't buy used diamonds." Then I went to a pawn shop. What they offered was a joke. So my daughter now has the set...

LOL.

It is always revealing to see a salesman, who was just a day before overflowing with assurances about how what he is selling such a grand investment and worth so much more than what he is charging, turn around and announce how much he will offer you to buy it back.

Like comparing how she looked last night with a belly full of beer to what she looks like in daylight. A ten last night turns into a four in the morning light.

The toy that looked so exciting on the TV. The one your kid claims he can't live without. The one 'all the other kids have'. It holds their attention for about ten minutes and then gets stuffed into the back of the closet. Where it resides until its final disposition in a garage sale or riding off to the dump.

Humans are easily influenced. The facts can be smeared through misrepresentation and selective addition of other facts or falsehoods. The criteria for judgment can be shifted. The thought process itself is subject to editing and revision. Advertising and marketing are billion dollar industries that wouldn't exist if this wasn't true. The same is true of political lobbying and the propaganda industries. All are in the business of 'shaping' perceived reality.

Nowhere is this more shockingly obvious than when you try to sell what you just bought. The fog of hype, enthusiasm and pretty pictures evaporate and the real value emerges. What you bought yesterday often goes for half that price today. Ouch.

What you bought yesterday often goes for half that price today. Ouch.





Ben Dover.

"...turns into a four in the morning light..."

If you are lucky she is a four. Ever hear that song about waking up with a number one??? Coyote ugly we used to call them...

Gold has been a traditional store of value since ancient times, and has very roughly held its value in the long term. In ancient Roman times an ounce of gold was worth about 300 loaves of bread, today it is still worth about 300 loaves. (no great accuracy can be claimed, since loaves vary a lot in size, qaulity and weight)

However you cant eat it, and neither will it keep you warm.

A stash of blankets, warm clothing, shoes/boots, fuel, long life foods, seeds, tools, etc is more likely to save your life than gold.
If however you already have good stores of the above, and other useful supplies, than I believe that gold is worth considering.

I absolutely LOVE replies like this. Thought out, sourced with facts, calm, and most of all, useful!

THANK YOU for going into a "hot zone" of forum topics so well equipped for the heat that will come.

I assume you are asking about the barter viability of silver in a scenario where cash and credit cards have, somehow, lost their value.

Additionally, I'm not sure what the conditions are: is it about preserving your overall wealth post-whatever, or bartering with others while on the move?

In any case, I heard salt can be a good investment: it has enormous value when scarce and that value can be easily verified by taste. The downside is bulk, but at least you're not hauling dead weight...

I see two and only one reasons to have any precious metal, stone or something with numismatic value as part of a survival strategy.

If you foresee the possiblity of having to pick up and move a long distance, with most of your property and assets left behind, these can be a way to transport the value, by carrying it with you.

Forexample, let's say you have stocked well in preparation for some calamity, survived it, have plenty of goods, more than you can trasnport and you want to move. If what you have has value, then abandoning it may not be the best idea. If you had precious metals or traded things it, then you can transport an asset of value. In other words, I could carry a signifcant value in these things, and that might be a good option to have.

The second would be as a hedge against the complete collapse of the economy. If things really tank, and you make it for a while, then they may have value in trade. But we'd need to be back toward a barter only economy, and that's pretty bleak.

You can also find them to be just a worthwhile thing to invest in, but that's not something I would ever advise anyone on.

I think if I were trying to get an economy started again, I'd want to base it on that I controlled, like notes that I'd printed myself. I wouldn't based it on something like gold because there could be people with large stashes of it. You'd have no idea how much was in circulation. I think you'd want new wealth to be based on what people did of value after the crisis, not on what they happened to have inherited from before it.

I could be wrong, though. You'd also want something that was difficult to forge.

And it’s hard to make more gold, not so hard to print more money…

That reminds me of an article I read while I was researching for diamonds.

Have you ever tried to sell a diamond?

It's a long read, but I found it very interesting. For those of you who don't have the patience, here are the cliff notes.

1) Diamonds have almost no resale value. The end.

Sorry you had to find out the hard way. Diamonds are not rare, and they aren't intrinsically valuable. There is only one reason for their exhorbitant price, and that's marketing.

After reading that article, I tend to think of precious metals in a similar way. Right now, in a non-emergency situation, how easy is it to barter PM's with random people in exchange for goods? Could you go to the store and actually buy anything with gold or silver? With all the fraud out there, I personally wouldn't take anything that I couldn't verify 100%, and even if i could I wouldn't be paying anywhere near it's full value, because I'm going to minimize my risk by lowballing the price. If an emergency, I'm not sure I'd even consider it.

It's a long read, but I found it very interesting. For those of you who don't have the patience, here are the cliff notes.

1) Diamonds have almost no resale value. The end.





Sad isn't it?

But what about those guys in the movies with a couple of diamonds imbedded under their skin? They get into a tight spot, cut the stones out, and are rich again.

I posted my view on precious metals already in the "Diapers?" thread, but since there's a thread dedicated to it I'll post here as well. The reason I didn't post here earlier is I wanted to hear other people's opinions on the subject before I posted my same arguement again.

From what I've seen so far, most people here are against the idea buying gold or silver (I don't suggest platinum or palladium the other two precious metals which have ISO currency codes because of their extravagant prices and to some extent obscurity). The arguments against seem to be; gold and silver can be faked, gold and silver are poor investments, and you won't be able to trade gold and silver in an emergency.

For our purposes, the investment value of precious metals really doesn't matter. Buying gold as a financial investment may or may not be a good investment (opinions vary wildly), the real question is whether its a good investment in money against a future emergency ranging from a hurricane to a complete collapse of civilization.

Lets consider precious metals along side other preparedness related purchases. 50 lbs of rice for instance. 50bls of rice will cost you in the neighborhood of 25 dollars (guessing its been a while since I priced rice at the supermarket or Costco). You cannot resell this back to the supermarket, the rice can get wet and rot or otherwise go bad, the rice can be infested with insects or rodents, the rice is bulky and care must be taken when storing it, and the rice will be difficult to carry if you have to pick up and leave. These same risks are true for any food purchase, even MREs, dehydrated and canned goods. A firearm is another example. A gun is purchased either for self-defense or for hunting. If you buy a firearm you also have to purchase a large supply of ammunition or risk not having any. This is a 500-2000 dollar investment. Risks involve include everything from not having anything to hunt or anyone to fight off, meaning your investment was in vain, up to having an unauthorized person get a hold of the weapon and kill or maim them self or someone else.

The risks involved with gold and silver are that it can be stolen from you (possibly with you being killed or maimed in the process), no one being willing to trade for it, the gold or silver could be a fake and the person you are trading to knows this (if no-one knows its a fake, no problem). The first risk can be mitigated by many of the same kind of techniques necessary for either good security of other preparedness stocks. Likewise with the problem of fakes, just as you buy firearms from a reputable dealer or inspect food for problems before relying on it, you buy gold and silver carefully and you won't get burned. Businesses who rely on their reputation will not risk it just to screw one customer. This is especially true of establishments like the US mint. Finally, the question of whether gold and silver will be accepted by people as currency after a disaster.

I will concede that we simply don't know. People who have little may not be willing to trade any of it for gold and silver. But look at the people around you, the people you meet every day and ask yourself if they value gold. Odds are the answer is yes. You could even do an informal poll of people and see what they think (an unbiased poll, asking people if they'd trade their last meal for a shiny coin is not exactly unbiased). The truth is, people like gold and silver. They value it. Its not a transitory value, people have valued it for a long, long time. And regardless of whether or not it makes sense to value metal, people do. The current price of gold may be high, but even if it drops, it will never drop to zero.

Now my arguments for precious metals. First, they concentrate value. Two-hundred dollars in gold makes a very small package. Its easy to carry and I think the value of trade is biggest if you're on the move. How many people here are willing to give someone your address and advertise that you have anything of value? You might find your place broken into or burned down around your ears. Traveling on the other hand, you have the opportunity to meet lots of different people and avoid more hostile areas and

Lets face it, if you have to travel a long distance you cannot carry everything you might need to get to your destination. People who do long distance races like the Iditarod or people who hike the Appalachian Trail have supplies cached or carried to link up points by other people. If you have to bug out, the ability to buy more supplies will be helpful and probably essential. Under most circumstances, good old cash will do this job just fine. Probably better then gold or silver as you pointed out. However, in a large scale disaster, cash will devalue much faster and more readily then precious metal. And gold and silver have a strong psychological impact that may achieve results paper money cannot. Remember, we're not trying to buy from the Gap or Whole Foods. We're buying from people on the street. And as I learned in high school, you can buy with and sell just about anything from/to regular people.

How much have you spent on survival gear or preparations? How does 200-300 dollars of an essentially liquifiable asset compare?

How much have you spent on survival gear or preparations? How does 200-300 dollars of an essentially liquefiable asset compare?

It’s not liquefiable too easily in a bug out or survival situation.





Precious metals have look alike metals and can be faked, how would a person you wanted to trade with verify that you a transient (bugging out) they are never going to see again in their life and have no reason to trust are in fact telling them the truth that the metal you have is in fact gold? They can’t. What if they only have enough supplies to see themselves through? What if they are like me and see gold as something you can’t eat or use right away?

I see precious metals as a worthwhile investment for things like retirement as long as a social structure is there. As I would expect society to continue to do. But for a bug out and the idea that you can use it for re-supply is risky at best. Too many ways it can’t work, I want things I know will work or are risks I can manage and control.

Yea food can go bad and rice can get wet, but through diligence keeping on top of this I can easily manage this risk to keep it down. How many of us right now have food put away that is wet or infested with bugs? Probably none, we store it right and keep on top of it and rotate stock and buy food in durable containers of have good containers for it.

Bugging out, you have no idea if you will find someone to trade with, and if you do they have to want what you have to trade and see and be able to prove it’s a value to them. Not being able to prove it’s really gold of whatever quality you say it is, it’s value will be much less to them as from their view they have to take a big risk to take an unknown value product and give away a known quality and valued product.

And what if you can’t find some to trade anything with?

Bugging out, you better have the supplies you need or be able to hunt for them (animals for food) along the way. I also don’t agree that you can’t carry enough supplies to get you out of any given problem area. An auto with a full tank of gas and a trunk full of food will feed me for 5 or 6 weeks (I go camping for a week with 1-duffel bag of food and don’t eat it all) and allow me to travel 450-miles without refueling. This is far enough to drive away from most problems. If you plan ahead and have a pickup truck, van or a small trailer you can increase your lifeline considerably. I just think it’s better to rely on me for supplies then someone a few hundred miles down the road I may not be able to find or that may not have things to give me because he’s having supply problems himself or just may not want to trade or be interested in what I have to trade.

I love primitive tent camping and have over the years accumulated a lot of gear that lends itself to survival. Other then food and gasoline (consumable items that are hard to come by in nature) I have everything I need to keep going. In fact I’m over stocked in this area as I would guess most of us here are. I have at least 10 camp stoves, 3 tents, 2 water filters, the list goes on & on.

You can’t compare a person that hikes the Appalachian Trail to a person bugging out. Hiking the AT is about hiking with a minimal amount of supplies, packs weighting under 35-pounds, some light weight hikers hike with a pack weighting 10 to 12-pounds. They can do this because the AT is not about survival in the wild, it’s about hiking. It purposely goes through or close to many towns a person can re-supply in that have businesses that cater to hikers. If society were to collapse (like is a possibility in a crises bug out situation) and the re-supply structure & businesses that feed the AT that have sprang up over the years were to fail even for a short time hikers on the AT would not get far.

They expect to and do find things that are not normally found anyplace (like butane for a popular stove called a Jet-Boil, while this stove is a great stove, it’s hard top find it and fuel for it) but a specialty store. Take an AT hiker and his carried supplies without a special store and he’s stuck in short time. They have people send them drop boxes to a post office (post office will hold a package for you for 30-days) they are on their way to.

If I need to bug-out, no one is going to send me supplies to a post office I can then go to and re-supply.


The best bug-out mentality is to fully expect to carry what you need with you for the duration you will be gone.

Or pre-plan a route with catches you have set up ahead of time.

Or have a destination you have in mind with a catch of supplies.

Or go far enough to get out of the effected area (like with Katrina, 300-miles or less would have been fine.)

Are you trying to get the economy started again, or get the US economy started again?

Just curious if anyone has been following the price of PM in the last month, or even the last few days.

I figure if you buy now what you'll need later, then later you won't need to barter for anything.

It's difficult and/or impractical to store some things in quantity so there might always be a need to barter. Plus, in some situations, I would probably welcome the opportunity to trade the fruits of my skills for the fruits of someone else's since it could lessen the number of skills needed to get by when there's no time to learn. One person might be a skilled hunter and the other might be skilled at turning hides into shelter and/or clothing. Let's make a deal!

Gold/metals would be the last thing on my list.

Is there something lower in priority than last on the list?

"oh yeah, don't forget to pack the kruggerrands honey..."

John E

As a post script, anyone thinking that gold is gonna save them in the post-apocalyptic world should read "On the beach" by Nevil Shute.

John E

Nope.

There seems to be quite a bit of concern or debate surrounding verifying the legitimacy of gold or silver. If you buy Eagles, they are made by the same group that prints paper money and is defended by the same secret service. So, I would trust a silver or gold eagle the same as I would trust a US $20 or $100 bill.

Personally, I don't see a bunch of use for metals in a short term survival situation unless you are talking about a rather large financial collapse. If that was the case, I wouldn't be worried that people would not know what silver is. We used silver prior to 1964 and people would figure it out quickly if we ever go back there again.

It is a store of value and if you want to use it to buy rice, maybe it is better to just buy rice now. Once you have your preparations made and need someplace to keep excess funds, it may be a good place.

Fact is that nobody knows what is going to happen. Between the deficit and unfunded liabilities, something has to give sooner or later.

I find it advantageous to purchase silver rounds to build up my "emergency cash stash".

The silver rounds are not legal tender and thus can't be grabbed by the DD's or DW because they want to buy a coke while they run an errand. That's why the number of quarters grow so slowly in my change jar.

I can grab the silver rounds quickly in the event of an evacuation since they are stored in my Armory. My weps always go with me.

When I run short of cash, wherever I happen to be, I can go to a coin dealer and sell them for the current price plus a small handling fee.

In the worst case scenario (TEOTWAWKI/TSHTF), I can haggle for something, and if need be, cut a silver round into quarter ounces to make payment for goods and/or services. Providing that the vendor(?) would accept silver in payment.

Just as I do with emergency food procurement/storage (buy a little extra every trip to the store), I buy 1 or 2 silver rounds every payday. That is the same thing I do with equipment everytime I go to a non-grocery store.

That's my reasoning and my system. I feel that it provides additional options come what may. I like "options"!!

TEOTWAWKI? Don't try to palm off your worthless shinnies on me. Goods only. You want that plow? Gimmie a half a beef. This case of spam? Gimmie your shoes.
Things like silver and gold are only worth the value that the other person places on them.

There hasn't been a time in the last two thousand years that silver or gold have been worthless. Gold money has survived the test of time.

Efficient commerce and "money" systems are a necessity for modern life. I simply can't carry around a half of beef everytime I want to go shopping.

That said, I would trade you my shoes for your case of spam!

I agree for the most part, but when someone evokes TEOTWAWKI then most money systems are worthless. To me, TEOTWAWKI means the collapse of anykind of effective government and all that it stands for including any monetary systems it may have backed. Paper money would be worth less than the paper it was printed on. Gold and silver would have a better chance of surviving as a money, but if I were to accept it as payment I would need to be reasonably certain that I could exchange that with someone else. I would much rather take goods or services as barter - the oldest form of currancy - and not have to worry that the shiney rocks I just took from you would be acceptable anywhere else as payment. That's not something I'm going to bet on unless there was some kind of new community being built or re-emerging. Lets call that Post-TEOTWAWKI.
Otherwise, tote your beef if you're going to shop at my store.

Well, you could, but you might get some pretty funny looks. Seriously though, there's too many varaibles when it comes to barter and exchange to count out gold/silver coins. As long as there's a chance the economy will recover, coins will retain value. Even more so during periods of hyperinflation. If you have enough essentials stored away you can consider a breakdown period as the perfect precious metals buying opportunity. A can of spam for some gold coins? Hell yeah.

A theory about one aspect of the steriotypical "Survivalist" mentality is just starting to solidify in my mind:

The Survivalist has aspirations to "get rich quick" in the event of a collapse. He'll do this by having the forsight to either have critical supplies on hand which he hopes will literally be worth more than their weight in gold or by having the gold itself which everone will be clamoring for.

I was actually joking. However, caprpetbagging and fleecing excluded, what would be theoretically wrong with exchanging your spam for someone else' gold coins? Isn't capitalizing on market opportunities (within reason) an aspect of capitalism, not survivalism?

If it truly is an event of cataclysmic proportion, gold coins won't be worth their weight.

If it's simply a really bad economic crash, then eventually the economy will recover to the point of not needing to trade in such things as precious metals which can't be eaten, burned for fuel or much of anything really when it comes right down to it. I suppose one could smelt down the metal and make some extra conductive electrical fittings with both gold and silver but I don't know that having really nice speaker connections will be at the top of anyone's real needs list...

If you can find someone to take "precious" metals in trade for things like food in a post cataclysmic event, more power to you.They can use the silver to make bullets to kill the werewolves or something...are zombies allergic to silver?

John E

Or to take their food back.

Ask someone that question at the door of a Hannah Montana concert that is selling extra tickets (and being arrested for It.) at a very highly inflated price.

And don’t think selling some Spam for a gold coin is not a very highly inflated price.

People have been charged for inflating the price of plywood in an area that is in the path of a hurricane.


Cops are notoriously serous people and have no sense of humor, (my brother is a sheriff and it’s real work to get him to smile.) and will act on what they see as your profiteering.

I would trade him a case of spam for those tickets.

I think its safe to say if the time came when people were trading Spam for gold coins, law enforcement would be long gone.

"...Cops are notoriously serous people and have no sense of humor..."

Actually, most cops have a fantastic, if somewhat sick sometimes, sense of humor. But, to avoid getting complaints, "civilians" rarely see it...

No kiddin'. On a couple of rare occasions when I have let my humor fly while on duty, I was accused of being insensitive, biased, perverted and a host of other negative adjectives. Now I always consider the lowest common denominator in the crowd. That way, the subtle stuff shouldn't go over anyone's head.

I refer to my brand of humour as "my sick sailor's sense of humour".

Once, when I was visiting my brother in Manhattan, I was walking across the street towards his walk-up apartment. Two NYPD exiting his building saw me and one said in a challenging way, "Hey are you going to see John G.?"

I was a bit surprised. John is my brother and we have an obvious resemblance but I'd never seen these cops in my life. So I replied with a puzzled look on my face, "Yes..."

The other cop says, "Yeah, we just busted him for marijuana possession"

I must have shown a look of disbelief while saying "Huh?" because the the cops then smirked and walked off.

Turns out they had been talking to my brother about some complaint he had made. After finishing their business, they left, saw me, drew the apparently obvious conclusion and had a little fun.

I still get a laugh out of myself when I remember that.