Diapers?

Posted by: thatguyjeff

Diapers? - 07/28/08 03:42 PM

I was reading somewhere how diapers (for infants/children, not the adult kind) were a hot commodity in situations involving interruptions in services.

It got me thinking about stocking up on some diapers even if you don't have children - for barter.

Say there's a major interruption in services, but folks wouldn't necessarily bug out.

Diapers have an unlimited shelf life and would be in high demand by parents with little ones.

I wonder if diapers would be such a hot item that their value would soar in a situation like that.

Think it would be worth having a few hundred on hand to trade with others?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 03:51 PM

If things really got that bad, I think people would go back to using cloth diapers instead of giving up everything they have for a disposable commodity.
Posted by: Blast

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 03:52 PM

Hmmm, not wild about the idea for several reasons:
1. They are bulky.
2. You'd need to stock several different sizes in hopes of having the right size on hand.
3. You'd need to encounter someone looking for diapers that had something you wanted. If they don't have diapers they probably don't have anything you'd want.
4. It takes a fair number of diapers to get a baby through the day, one or two would rarely be enough.
5. Karma.

However, they might be worth having on hand for good-will gifts.

Overall, I think there's a lot of better barter items out there.

-Blast, giving the opinion of a parent
Posted by: Fitzoid

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 04:02 PM

Sorry, I may be in the minority on this but hoarding diapers just seems evil to me. And diapers are also incredibly bulky and one can easily go through 10 a day. You're not going to be traveling with this vast quantity of disposable wealth. (I'm just going to assume you don't have kids.)

We survived as a species for a few hundred thousand years without modern diapers. I suspect most people would rediscover the "joys" of cloth or that potty training would gain a new incentive.

Fortunately, places like CostCo allow those who can afford them to stock up on huge quantities of diapers these days.

And if water/toilet services are interrupted, cities are going to become very nasty places very quickly...
Posted by: Eugene

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 04:07 PM

They don't have an unlimeted shelf life, theu actually do degrade after a while, the stuff in them to absorb liquid degrades as well as the paper they are made of.
We had some left overs from our first child that we had to throw out before we could use for our second.

I never got the need to sotre items for barter anyway, why not use the space to store more of what you will need rather than what you think someone else might.
Posted by: big_al

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 04:18 PM

Is some one trying to make money on a bad situation?

(I wonder if diapers would be such a hot item that their value would soar in a situation like that.)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 04:26 PM

Hoarding also can make you a target in theory.

Some states (I hear) have anti-hoarding legislation in times of a disaster...or at least the ability to enforce such things if martial law were invoked.
Posted by: Fitzoid

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 04:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Hacksaw
Hoarding also can make you a target in theory.

I know what I'd be throwing at someone hoarding diapers... grin grin grin
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 04:35 PM

Plus what happens if you have a lady friend over and she goes into the wrong door looking for the bathroom and notices that you have a stash of 400 diapers. Unless you're into some crazy stuff, that's your last date for sure. smile
Posted by: thatguyjeff

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 04:48 PM

Well I wouldn't necessarily be looking to profit. I guess I was thinking in terms of simplification maybe?

It might be something to cover the unexpected. Since it's tough to plan for any and every situation - perhaps having some sort of commodity that you yourself don't need as sort of back-up that could be used...

One could stock up on guns and ammo too for future barter opportunities. But that's expensive and could raise some eyebrows with the law if you had a large cache of that.

IDK, just got me thinking about creative ways to prepare. Just wondered what others thought about it.

What would be a good item to have a stock of that one could use for barter?

Or, is it just plain silly to plan for bartering?
Posted by: Fitzoid

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 05:00 PM

Damn, you made me spit up my coffee with that one. grin
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 05:02 PM

I wouldn't call it silly. But I don't do it.

If you're concerned about a situation like that becomming a reality learn a trade in your spare time. I've taken motorcycle repair courses by correspondance. I'm sure there are lots of barterable trades you could learn the same way.

You'll get way more bartering success over being able to fix bicycles for example than by having a hoard of diapers.

If I were in such a situation I'd much rather be known as 'the bicycle guy' over the 'diaper guy' wink
Posted by: Fitzoid

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 05:02 PM

I think in a genuine disaster situation, if you have supplies, it may be best to keep that news to yourself. I wouldn't put a sign on my front door saying "Ammo/food/water available!" unless you're planning on giving them away.


Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 05:05 PM

Actually this thread has gotten me to thinking.

My dad volunteers as an 'old time' mechanic at a local historical attraction. He was telling me the other day how the on site blacksmith shop is vacant this year because nobody can be found to volunteer to run it...and that the last 3 guys who did weren't actual blacksmiths anyhow.

Makes you wonder how many traditional trades are being lost like that and how valuable they could be if society had a bit of a hicup.

More curiosity than anything else. I'm the last person who's going to go out and learn how to shoe a horse just in case the world ends tomorrow.
Posted by: Blast

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 05:07 PM

Quote:
What would be a good item to have a stock of that one could use for barter?


My thought is don't purchase stuff specifically for bartering. You'd be better off buying extra of stuff you know you'd use (cans of tuna, wool socks, batteries, first aid supplies, shoe laces, etc...). That would be the most effcient use of your money and storage space.

There've been some good bartering threads here. Do a search and you'll find them.

-Blast
Posted by: big_al

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 05:07 PM

several boxes of matches,and some extra knifes.
Posted by: Eugene

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 05:13 PM

Well, my thought on the whole stocking up thing, is stock for yourself first. Once you have _everything_ you could ever possiblt imagine needing and then some then you can think about stockpiling for bartering.

Now once you do stock other items, what are you going to do when the poor single mother is standing at your doorstep with her 2 kids in soiled diapers with nothing to barter, are you going to turn hew away or hand her a pac of diapers. I can see being faced with the same situation no matter what you stock for bateriing, the person on the other end is going to be asking for handouts. Are you going to be able to turn whomever away? what if they outumber you?

Bartering came about in history when society was on an increse, i.e. we moved from the hunter/gathers to a more agricultural society and people started to specialize and were able to make an excess in the area they specialized. If TSHTF your doing to be in a decrease of society where your going to need everything you have. Once your into a post SHTF society long enough to where society can be on an increase then is when you think about bartering. Your not going to have bartertown the day after TSHTF because your going to have lawlessness and peiple are going to just take whatever you have at that point. Look at disasters that have heppened in recent history, the majority wants a handout not a trade.

I wouldn't call it silly but your looking at very long term preps. Bartering comes after your completely self sustainable on your farm, compound, bug out land, whatever.
Posted by: big_al

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 05:24 PM


Boy Eugene it sounds like you were in the Katrina recovery crew also.

( Your not going to have barter town the day after TSHTF because your going to have lawlessness and people are going to just take whatever you have at that point. Look at disasters that have happened in recent history, the majority wants a handout not a trade.)

Posted by: Chris Kavanaugh

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 06:00 PM

Everybody has a preconcieved notion of what will happen in a post apocalyptic event, largely fueled by Hollywood writers who can barely navigate out of Encino. Any disaster is a interuption of services and social mores. Society will do evedrything it can to reestablish the staus quo. I can tell you what happened after hte relatively benign Northridge earthquake. Some merchants and individuals tried price gouging and hoarding of essentials.Several people were prosecuted. One Burger King in particular, who charged $2 for canned cokes was the recipient of such bad P.R. It was closed down.Peoiple have long memories. My grandparents would cross the street in the 1960s when one depression era merchant approached.
Posted by: Jeff_M

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 06:31 PM

Originally Posted By: thatguyjeff
I was reading somewhere how diapers (for infants/children, not the adult kind) were a hot commodity in situations involving interruptions in services.


Speaking from personal experience, with reference to ordinary short-term
regional disasters only, such as floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc., and
not TEOTWAWKI or societal collapse, I've found the following smaller items
to be much appreciated:

1. Toilet paper, always in short supply
2. Cigarettes and lighters, ditto
3. Sunblock and bug repellant, which will reduce misery considerably
4. Feminine hygiene products, which will make you a hero to the ladies
5. Lysol spray, liquid bleach, brooms, mops and other cleaning stuff, always
6. Hotel sized soaps, shampoos and other personal grooming supplies
7. Disposable diapers, moms will hug you
8. Large plastic garbage bags, a million uses
9. Pens, paper
10. Paper towels, plates, plastic utensils, and especially paper or plastic cups.

Amongst the professionals, these items are popular (in addition to the above):
11. Batteries, AA, AAA, D, C, in that order
12. Maps of the local area, street maps and urban topo maps such as those in the state "gazetteers"
13. Satellite phone and/or satellite internet access time
14. Orange spray paint
15. Duct tape


Jeff


Posted by: Jeff_M

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 06:41 PM

I am ethically prohibited from bartering anything I bring into a disaster area, but I do bring some small extras just in case somebody else needs it.

My thought on planning for bartering is: what about putting a little aside for your neighbors, or just to give to those in need? That concept probably wasn't foreign to our grandparents, who likely had far less to spare, even in good times, than we do.

As you stock up, consider setting some small portion of whatever you accumulate aside in a "charity box." Just a thought . . .

Jeff
Posted by: Joy

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 06:53 PM

If you really want to, I don't see why you can't stash some cloth diapers away for barter. And I would throw in a couple plastic pants (though the plastic might get brittle with time) to put over the cloth diapers too. Maybe some diaper pins. Most women these days probably don't know much about using cloth diapers, so even printing out some info to stash with the cloth diapers might be wise. These won't take up much space. Here is a page on diapers for emergencies: http://home.att.net/~ofuzzy1/diaper.htm You could make up a small box of diapering supplies to keep with your other emergency stuff. I can't seem to make the above link work. You will have to cut and paste.

One problem with using cloth during emergencies is washing them when there might not be much water. So for a short term emergency disposables would probably be best. Though you might want to rotate them if what Eugene says is true and they degrade after a while. We used cloth diapers, as disposable's weren't widely available when my girls were little. But I liked using cloth myself. Washing them was a pain even with lots of water.

It seems to me if you come across someone that might need diapers in an emergency or during hard times, then you could trade with them (or just give it to them) without letting the whole neighborhood know you have supplies to barter. You don't even have to let the person you are trading with know that you are bartering or know that you have other kinds of supplies. I think if I were doing this (bartering in hard times), I would deal with each person one on one and not use the word bartering. Hopefully that would prevent it getting out that you have stocked up on supplies. Something like that anyway!

Nitro-pak has a little book on bartering. http://www.nitro-pak.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_132&products_id=287

For women:
And women reading this can even get cloth menstrual pads and supplies for long term emergencies. In the past I have seen sewing patterns online so you can sew your own. Here is one brand you can buy (I have seen these for sale in some health food stores): http://www.gladrags.com/category/reusable-menstrual-pads Or you could buy one and use that as a pattern to make more.

Joy
Posted by: wildman800

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 07:17 PM

I have found that Disposable Diapers, Wet Ones, baby powder, and Bed Chucks, are a good source for barter, providing you meet up with those who need them.

I think your barter items might very well be "confiscated for the greater good" if you are in a shelter situation and the folks running the shelter learn that you have them.

There are many items that you may not need but would be great to have as barter material. Unfortunately, the more that you have, the more space and money it requires, the more protection you are required to provide.

Good Luck on finding the optimal middle ground!
Posted by: MartinFocazio

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 08:00 PM

In my experience, large-scale disasters have been for the most part the epitome of human kindness and cooperation. What we forget in the example of Hurricane Katrina is that while thousands had extraordinarily bad behavior, MILLIONS didn't. NYC Blackouts, Delaware River Flooding, California Wildfires, 9/11, the Great Depression.

Think about this kid when you think TEOTWAWKI and take a deep breath:

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2005/09/05/955/11308



Posted by: Jeff_M

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: wildman800
I think your barter items might very well be "confiscated for the greater good" if you are in a shelter situation and the folks running the shelter learn that you have them.


ARRRGH! PLEASE LET ME DISPEL THAT MYTH RIGHT NOW. Anything is possible, but I assure you that it is exceedingly unlikely that anyone who is running any sort of sanctioned shelter (American Red Cross; Salvation Army; Federal, State or Local Govít, etc.) is going to seize anyoneís private property. Where do these notions get their start?

Now, if you try to bring in, say, alcohol or firearms, though, you will likely be asked to leave them in your car or otherwise remove them from the shelter, but you are then welcome to return. On the other hand, if you are the least bit discreet, Iíve never seen anyone get searched in a shelter, either.

First, the people running the shelter donít need to take your stuff. There are logistics already in place from commercial and government channels. Second, there is no way to account for and utilize your stuff without seriously eroding efficiency. Itís just too complex to inventory, store and transport, and what if its deficient? poisoned? It ain't worth the time, hassle and ill-will. Third, they respect your rights and the Rule of Law is not suspended, nor is the Constitution revoked in times of emergency, and theyíd really rather not get their asses sued off afterwards.

Let me explain how disaster logistics really work. We try to bring whatever we need in the short run with us, because we donít know what will be available on-site. There are then two major logistics trains called into operation.

First is the Governmental/Military supply system. Many things are pre-positioned in caches and designated for disaster relief. Others are taken from supplies like war stocks or borrowed from government entities outside the disaster area according to pre-existing or contemporaneous interstate and other agreements.

Second is the commercial supply system. Just like when you run short of something, the major governmental and non-governmental entities just run down to Wal-Mart with their credit cards and get what they need. The same system that keeps the shelves of every local chain supermarket in America stocked daily can truck in tons and tons of supplies to a disaster area daily. In fact, most national chains plan for such calls in advance. Minor local needs are also sometimes handled by on site donations, and purchasing from local merchants. Another interesting method I have used is simply contacting the corporate or local operators of a heavily damaged medical facility or retail store, explaining who we are, and asking permission to collect what we need from inventory that is sure to be a total insurance write-off anyway.

Yeah, I know about the rogue cops (and, I suspect, some Blackwater Cowboys) seizing guns in NOLA. But that was aberrant criminal behavior, contrary to law, and pretty universally condemned thereafter. But criminal activity under color of authority is a problem during times of disaster just like it is any other time.

Jeff
Posted by: Rodion

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 08:14 PM

Originally Posted By: wildman800
I think your barter items might very well be "confiscated for the greater good" if you are in a shelter situation and the folks running the shelter learn that you have them.


I think anything and everything on you may be "confiscated for the greater good" if an official lays their eyes on it. Some folks advise against seeking dedicated "shelters" for this very reason.
Posted by: big_al

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 08:30 PM

I was stationed at the air port in Baton Rouse, And let me assure you that the day after Katrina blew thru there was thousands of pounds of diapers, formula and baby supply's that came in on Private aircraft for the next two weeks and were still coming in when I returned to Calif.

May I also add the problem was getting them to the mothers that needed them.
Posted by: Jeff_M

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 08:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Rodion
I think anything and everything on you may be "confiscated for the greater good" if an official lays their eyes on it. Some folks advise against seeking dedicated "shelters" for this very reason.


May I ask, specifically, why you think that? Is it based on some related personal experience? Is it an extrapolation from your view of government behavior generally? Something you read or saw in the media? An abundance of caution or a distaste of others wielding their power like dogs off their leash during the emergency? No disrespect intended. I sincerely would like to know how folks arrive at this not uncommon opinion.

Jeff
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 09:08 PM

I believe it comes from Executive Order #12919 which is an amalgum of a bunch of other presidential EOs going quite a ways back.

http://www.uhuh.com/laws/eo12919.html

This is the same controversial EO that gives FEMA nearly absolute control over the United States if another 9/11 happens.

This EO allows the government to confiscate what ever it wants (not really but close) in the interest of appropriately allocating national resources in the case of an emergency. That includes water, food, your car, and YOU!
Posted by: Rodion

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 09:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann
Originally Posted By: Rodion
I think anything and everything on you may be "confiscated for the greater good" if an official lays their eyes on it. Some folks advise against seeking dedicated "shelters" for this very reason.


May I ask, specifically, why you think that? Is it based on some related personal experience? Is it an extrapolation from your view of government behavior generally? Something you read or saw in the media? An abundance of caution or a distaste of others wielding their power like dogs off their leash during the emergency? No disrespect intended. I sincerely would like to know how folks arrive at this not uncommon opinion.

Jeff


No offense taken.

Our government stinks. It stinks hard. I will not go into details (as that delves into fairly dangerous information that, although freely available to all who look, will not be passed on by yours truly), let's just say when push comes to shove, I do not expect to be saved by our marvelous disaster relief system.

In the wake of a serious disaster, I fully expect officials on the ground to compensate shortages by taking resources from wherever they are found. Naturally, SAR won't be looting ruined homes, but the shelter supplies redistribution described above seems very real to me, especially knowing the genuinely personal attitude adopted here.

Your description of the US disaster relief system seems unrealistic in the local climate. It also fails to address the possibility to a temporary collapse in said system, when the local authorities are reduced to basically the guys with guns and there are no supply trucks on the horizon.
Posted by: Jeff_M

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 09:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Rodion
Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann
Originally Posted By: Rodion
I think anything and everything on you may be "confiscated for the greater good" if an official lays their eyes on it. Some folks advise against seeking dedicated "shelters" for this very reason.


May I ask, specifically, why you think that? Is it based on some related personal experience? Is it an extrapolation from your view of government behavior generally? Something you read or saw in the media? An abundance of caution or a distaste of others wielding their power like dogs off their leash during the emergency? No disrespect intended. I sincerely would like to know how folks arrive at this not uncommon opinion.

Jeff


No offense taken.

Our government stinks. It stinks hard. I will not go into details (as that delves into fairly dangerous information that, although freely available to all who look, will not be passed on by yours truly), let's just say when push comes to shove, I do not expect to be saved by our marvelous disaster relief system.

In the wake of a serious disaster, I fully expect officials on the ground to compensate shortages by taking resources from wherever they are found. Naturally, SAR won't be looting ruined homes, but the shelter supplies redistribution described above seems very real to me, especially knowing the genuinely personal attitude adopted here.

Your description of the US disaster relief system seems unrealistic in the local climate. It also fails to address the possibility to a temporary collapse in said system, when the local authorities are reduced to basically the guys with guns and there are no supply trucks on the horizon.


I can agree about gov't sucking big time in a general sense. So, why do you trust SAR not to loot when they go in and out of houses, but not related responders?

My opinions are based on two things: Extensive first-hand, on-scene experience in a variaty of capacities in basically every type of natural and man-made disaster the US has experienced over the last quarter century, and my research as a lawyer and academic in this field.

It may seem unrealistic to you, but that's the way it DOES work, in broad general terms, albeit with fits, starts, hiccups, outright failures, political incompetence and other problems large and small along the way, and limitied to ordinary-scale regional domestic disasters, not truly national emergencies like all out nuclear war or asteroid strikes.

More specifically, I've run shelters, worked at shelters, supported shelter operations, and inspected shelter operations. I know shelters, at least so far as they have and do operate in the above-described situations. If somebody tries to take your stuff, which I have NEVER seen or heard happen, I advise you go get the cop that is usually standing around nearby, and RAISE HELL.

Jeff
Posted by: Jeff_M

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 09:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Hacksaw
I believe it comes from Executive Order #12919 which is an amalgum of a bunch of other presidential EOs going quite a ways back. (snip)


I understand, and I have run into this issue before and I am very familiar with this pernicious EO. Please don't think I'm dismissing your point or dodging a reply, but that stuff is so complex and technical that it's pretty hard to discuss in this type of forum. Yes, there is some genuinely potentially very, very dangerous and worrisome stuff there, and many other places besides, that could lead to political disasters up to and including the complete overthrow of Constitutional government and the rule of law as we know it.

But I am referring, as I said, to the run of the mill regional disaster like Hurricane Katrina or the World Trade Center attack, and in very broad, general terms, where American life goes on pretty much as normal in most of the remainder of the country. Nor am I excluding the chance of severe misconduct by a few panicky or opportunistic local idiots or a-holes in the early hours or days of an emergency.

Jeff
Posted by: wildman800

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 09:57 PM

Check out what the fed, state, local police forces, in conjunction with the National Guard (strong arm muscle) did in New Orleans, La after Katrina and Greenwood, Ks (??) after a tornado wiped out the town.

Many residents in Greenwood, Ks had perfectly good homes that were untouched by the tornado but they were all forced to leave their homes and town. One resident who refused to leave, armed themselves and only a single state trooper prevented a shootout by convincing the authorities to back off and give the home owners time to think about the consequences of continued resistance.

It's very interesting to review what occurred in town once all of the locals were removed. Check it out!
Posted by: Jeff_M

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 10:08 PM

Originally Posted By: wildman800
Check out what the fed, state, local police forces, in conjunction with the National Guard (strong arm muscle) did in New Orleans, La after Katrina and Greenwood, Ks (??) after a tornado wiped out the town.

Many residents in Greenwood, Ks had perfectly good homes that were untouched by the tornado but they were all forced to leave their homes and town. One resident who refused to leave, armed themselves and only a single state trooper prevented a shootout by convincing the authorities to back off and give the home owners time to think about the consequences of continued resistance.

It's very interesting to review what occurred in town once all of the locals were removed. Check it out!


With respect, perhaps it would be better if you were to post, cite or describe what specifically you are referring to, so that we are all on the same page, and then we can discuss it, if that's OK with you?

Personally, I've found that there are a lot of untrue but persistant rumors and myths in circulation about what actually happened in NOLA particularly, and about who did what, and how much of it really went on.

I'm always on the lookout for credible stories of people being forced into, kept in, or otherwise abused under color of authority in sanctioned disaster shelters. I'm still looking, but I've collected some real horror stories so far, although of the bad conditions and incompetent management kind.

Jeff
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 11:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann
Please don't think I'm dismissing your point or dodging a reply, but that stuff is so complex and technical that it's pretty hard to discuss in this type of forum.


No worries. I'm not interested in discussing US Law. As a Canadian I don't get our laws let alone yours.

I found that site with google and about 3 searches. If it's that easy to find (I didn't link the dozens of survivalist sites that also mentioned it), then many people know about it.
Posted by: Fitzoid

Re: Diapers? - 07/28/08 11:10 PM

I think this is a great topic, particularly if everyone tones down the govt bashing and sticks to information, and Jeff seems very calm and reasonable discussing it.

However, you might want to start a new thread, as one titled "Diapers?" may not attract the relevant crowd! grin
Posted by: Joy

Re: Diapers? - 07/29/08 04:50 AM

Hi Jeff,

I don't know if you are interested in getting cloth diapers in place of or along with disposables or not, but I am adding some more information here in case you or someone else on this board is. If you aren't, then you can ignore this post since I know that this is way more information then you wanted - not to mention more involved then you wanted to get.

I had mentioned in my earlier post that plastic diaper covers might not last very long in storage, since the plastic might get brittle. I read on another board that the elastic also has a fairly short shelf life. I am not sure what the shelf life of elastic is though. One of the posters posted this as an alternative to plastic diaper covers:
http://www.thirstiesbaby.com/covers.htm

I also mentioned that it might be hard to wash cloth diapers in long term emergencies. I came across this method that might work. It still uses quite a bit of water though. It said to get the flat cloth diapers, because they would be easier for the mother to clean if there wasn't very much water:

"To wash cloth diapers you will need a 5 gallon bucket, a plunger, and some laundry soap. Get the most basic, cheapest one you can find. Diapers don't need any additives.

Put 8-10 diapers at a time into the bucket and fill until they are covered. Plunge the heck out of them with the plunger for many minutes and then empty the water. Fill again and plunge again. Then fill with rinse water and plunge one more time. Wring out and hang to dry."


I still suggest that if you do get cloth diapers that you spend a little time printing out instructions on how to fold them and clean them and stuff like that. Young women who grow up and are never exposed to using cloth diapers would have no idea how to fold them and put them on a baby. You can get diapers that are already padded and ready to pin or velcro on, but they can be harder to wash if water is scarce.

I got some of the information in this post here:
http://www.mrssurvival.com/forums/ubbthr...ge=1#Post229225

Joy
Posted by: TeacherRO

Re: Diapers? - 07/29/08 07:32 PM

I'd say no - Mostly because they are so bulky and limited use. ( at least disposables.) Instead, store more of what you use/ need; food, water, batteries, tools, etc.

Good that you are thinking ahead.

Teacher
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: Diapers? - 07/29/08 10:24 PM

"... shoe a horse..."

Actually, most "blacksmiths" do a lot more than just shoe horses. If they even do that. I know a guy in Tenn who calls himself a blacksmith, he can make just about anything out of metal. You name it, he can make it. Tenn being Tenn, he makes a lot of money constructing stills. I have a bottle of home grown hooch that he gave me, it will put hair on everything but my noggin'...
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: Diapers? - 07/29/08 10:43 PM

Re hoarding diapers for barter; I think that I would have a hard time sticking (so to speak) it to a mom with kids and no diapers. If I had them and didn't need them myself (I'm not that old yet), I would give them.

Re cleaning cloth diapers; assuming that anyone can actually buy them anymore, when my wife was a single mom, working a couple of jobs, taking college classes, and doing Navy Reserve time, she washed her daughters diapers with an old fashioned scub board in the bath tub.

Re bartering; I like Hacksaws idea of learning a usefull trade. In normal times, electricians always seem to be doing a job for someone, then getting some kind of work done for them in trade. Obviously an electrician won't be of much help if there is no power, but being able to fix or make "stuff" could probably earn you all kinds of neat stuff in return...
Posted by: Eugene

Re: Diapers? - 07/30/08 11:26 AM

Quote:
The actress Jamie Lee Curtis holds a patent on a piece of widely used diaper technology! It's a diaper that's "contents" can be pulled out all at once on the go with a piece of folded wet wipe cleaning up behind it. It's sort of a "clean as removed" diaper. But she won't let any companies use the technology until they agree to make diapers environemtnally friendly.



There are a couple brands of diapers like that with a removable center secton on the market that reduces waste.

qDaipers are one of them, you pull the insert and flush it.
Posted by: Eugene

Re: Diapers? - 07/30/08 11:33 AM

Originally Posted By: OldBaldGuy
Re hoarding diapers for barter; I think that I would have a hard time sticking (so to speak) it to a mom with kids and no diapers. If I had them and didn't need them myself (I'm not that old yet), I would give them.



And thats the main reason I don't like to store items for bartering. When that mom shows up at your door step with an armful of babies and asks for diapers and she has nothing to trade will you be able to turn her down? Then if you do give her some how many many more will turn up later?

Same with alcohol/tobacco, someone shows up asking for some and has nothing to trade, a lot of smokers/drinkers I've known can be quite nasty when they don't have their favotire drug so your putting your self in a potential situation when/if you do turn them away.

Thats why I say if TSHTF you stay low for a long time, its only after whetever event has long passed and people have settled down and have started to rebuild that you start to barter. Any short term situation will be over soon enough and if your neighbors find out you had things they needed and didn't give them away your going to have fun living next to them afterward.
Posted by: dweste

Re: Diapers? - 07/30/08 11:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Eugene
[quote=OldBaldGuy]Thats Any short term situation will be over soon enough and if your neighbors find out you had things they needed and didn't give them away your going to have fun living next to them afterward.


So maybe it would be nice to be able to drive or sail away?
Posted by: Eugene

Re: Diapers? - 07/30/08 12:43 PM

Originally Posted By: dweste

So maybe it would be nice to be able to drive or sail away?


In my old neighborhood bugging out was the priority. I had neighbors across the street from me who were getting food donations from a local church. Then one day their trash can was knocked over and there were several un opened cans of food there so they were throwing a bunch out. Those are the kind of people I exected to show up "needing" things.
Posted by: MartinFocazio

Re: Diapers? - 07/30/08 12:49 PM

Originally Posted By: OldBaldGuy

Re cleaning cloth diapers; assuming that anyone can actually buy them anymore...


Not only have we been using cloth diapers for all of our kids (my oldest is now 9, baby 3.0 is 5 months) there's a huge range of choices out there these days. We own, oh, maybe 40 cloth diapers. Cleaning them isn't really much fun, but they work fine.

Posted by: Rodion

Re: Diapers? - 07/30/08 12:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann
I can agree about gov't sucking big time in a general sense. So, why do you trust SAR not to loot when they go in and out of houses, but not related responders?

My opinions are based on two things: Extensive first-hand, on-scene experience in a variaty of capacities in basically every type of natural and man-made disaster the US has experienced over the last quarter century, and my research as a lawyer and academic in this field.

It may seem unrealistic to you, but that's the way it DOES work, in broad general terms, albeit with fits, starts, hiccups, outright failures, political incompetence and other problems large and small along the way, and limitied to ordinary-scale regional domestic disasters, not truly national emergencies like all out nuclear war or asteroid strikes.

More specifically, I've run shelters, worked at shelters, supported shelter operations, and inspected shelter operations. I know shelters, at least so far as they have and do operate in the above-described situations. If somebody tries to take your stuff, which I have NEVER seen or heard happen, I advise you go get the cop that is usually standing around nearby, and RAISE HELL.

Jeff


Just to remind you: I'm from Israel.

Here be monsters.
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Diapers? - 07/30/08 09:15 PM

In the very long term trading might be a viable option. But until things settle down trade can easily slide into profiteering, exploitation and abusive manipulation.

I think that if your preparing a fairly comprehensive supply base and your staying put, so weight and bulk aren't an issue, that a supply of diapers would have a place. I don't see carrying lots of sizes. I would invest in a good supply of mid-range disposables that do not use gels or other super-absorbents that mat degrade in time just to get people over the first few days. Smaller and larger children would have to make due with creative taping, pins and other field modifications.

After the first week or so, sooner if practical, the disposables would be discontinued and the kids would have to get by on a good stack of washable cotton diapers and safety pins until normal commercial sources reopen.

In a similar vein I would stock a good supply of sanitary napkins and/or tampons.

To avoid any resentments, legal issues these types of supplies would be given away or, at worse, traded on a sliding scale system according to means. People with things to trade don't get them all and those with nothing to trade are not excluded.

The diapers, disposable and reusable, have many uses other than diapering. The disposables are good for mopping up spills. The poly fiber ones are commonly used to soak up oil spills on water. The straight cotton ones are excellent wiping rags and bandages.

Sanitary napkins and tampons are effective, and cost effective, bandaging materials. As long as you don't have to carry them you can't have too many bandages.

Posted by: Jeff_M

Re: Diapers? - 07/30/08 10:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Rodion
Just to remind you: I'm from Israel.

Here be monsters.


Ok. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Jeff
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: Diapers? - 07/31/08 01:57 AM

"...straight cotton ones are excellent wiping rags and bandages..."

A well used cloth diaper is the BEST thing for spit shining shoes, but that seems to be a dieing art...
Posted by: AROTC

Re: Diapers? - 07/31/08 08:00 AM

I may be in the minority, but I don't think bartering is silly. Its impossible to anticipate everything you might need. Nor is it possible to store and control everything you might need. If you find yourself coming up short on something, or needing something completely unexpected, the only acceptable way to acquire it is by barter. In a disaster having somethings you would be willing to barter for things you didn't think would be important is a good idea. Ideas that top my list are cheap hard liquors, hotel sized bars of soap, and salt. But plenty of things are possible, what about nails? No one can hurt you with nails (okay, not easily), no one will hurt you for nails, but they may be valuable enough to get I don't know...mason jars for. Plus, they're cheap now.

I also don't see that a small, let me make that clear, small supply of precious metal or something else that concentrates lots of value into a small and universally accepted form is a bad idea. For something truly important, a life or limb saving antibiotic for instance, run of the mill items will not be enough to sway a person.

Likewise, ten tenth ounce Krugerrands would be a way to carry a substantial amount of wealth in an easily transported and concealed form. For people who say gold or silver will be worthless after a large scale disaster I say BS. In the worst circumstances of history gold has proven to continue to be coveted by most, though admittedly not all, people. War zones are one example. I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy Krugerrands to sell in a disaster, but I wouldn't discount the idea to rapidly.
Posted by: Kart29

Re: Diapers? - 07/31/08 01:46 PM

Originally Posted By: AROTC
I also don't see that a small, let me make that clear, small supply of precious metal or something else that concentrates lots of value into a small and universally accepted form is a bad idea. For something truly important, a life or limb saving antibiotic for instance, run of the mill items will not be enough to sway a person.

Likewise, ten tenth ounce Krugerrands would be a way to carry a substantial amount of wealth in an easily transported and concealed form. For people who say gold or silver will be worthless after a large scale disaster I say BS. In the worst circumstances of history gold has proven to continue to be coveted by most, though admittedly not all, people. War zones are one example. I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy Krugerrands to sell in a disaster, but I wouldn't discount the idea to rapidly.



I completely agree. It is possible, and has happened in the past, that a nation's currency becomes totally worthless. Stocks and bonds are merely pieces of paper that are only worth what someone else will pay for them. Precious metals may not be great long-term investments, and they may not be worth much in the midst of social chaos and upheaval. But, the value of gold, silver, copper, etc. WILL survive! Eventually when the disaster is over and some sort of order emerges, gold and silver will still retain some value while your mutual fund may have long ago disappeared into smoke. I doubt your silver dollars are going to do you much good five days after a hurricane or major earthquake. But, in the event of a long-term depression or economic collapse (brought about by whatever reason) the intrinsic value of gold and silver will remain as a means of holding and transferring economic value.
Posted by: thseng

Re: Diapers? - 07/31/08 02:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Kart29
Stocks and bonds are merely pieces of paper that are only worth what someone else will pay for them.
...
the intrinsic value of gold and silver will remain as a means of holding and transferring economic value.

Minor nitpick: Nothing material has intrinsic value. Everything is only worth what someone will pay you for it.

Posted by: Kart29

Re: Diapers? - 07/31/08 03:08 PM

Okay, I think you are right about everything being worth what someone will pay you for it. Even items with an intrinsic value, that value is subject to change based on other people's desire for it.

But precious metals do have an intrinsic value. They have value because of their inherent utility and resistance to decay. Precious metals are valued because of the substance's natural properties. Modern currencies and other forms of paper wealth hold value ONLY because of the external value placed on them by others - not because of any properties within the bills themselves. It is this distinction that I intended to highlight.
Posted by: thseng

Re: Diapers? - 07/31/08 04:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Kart29
They have value because of their inherent utility and resistance to decay. Precious metals are valued because of the substance's natural properties.

I dunno. Gold is pretty and resistant to corrosion, but is it really THAT valuable? I think it is only considered valuable because it is useful, resistant to decay and scarse.

Kingdoms of old didn't seek gold so that they could make pretty things for the queen or weapons or food.

No one dreams of striking a huge deposit of gold on his land so that he can make things out of it.

Originally Posted By: Kart29
Modern currencies and other forms of paper wealth hold value ONLY because of the external value placed on them by others - not because of any properties within the bills themselves.

I guess I can agree with that. Absent its value as legal tender, a dollar bill has only the value of an durable piece of paper that has already been written on. On the other hand, a dollar gold coin is a piece of metal that might be useful or might be valued again some day.
Posted by: AROTC

Re: Diapers? - 07/31/08 10:06 PM

I agree that gold is a strong value holder in extreme depressions. Thats why central banks and official organizations still hold about 20% of all mined gold as a reserve. However, I was thinking of gold as a more immediate tool. Even in not so major disasters, carrying gold or silver could be useful. Someone here mentioned making payment with a silver coin on a trip overseas. The circumstances were unusual, but not completely bizarre. Gold and silver also have the useful property of being hard to spend in normal times. You aren't going to decide to spend your bug out money unless you have to spend it.

Again, I'm not advocating hoarding large amounts of gold. However, I already keep a couple hundred dollars in emergency cash, why not split that half cash, half in fractions of ounce weights of gold or ounces of silver. Tenth and twentieth ounce Krugerrands are available. Which translates to 80-100 dollar and 40-50 dollar values respectively. I think a lot of people think they'd have to buy full ounces or more which is prohibitively expensive (800-900 dollars) and impossible to use to buy pretty much anything with. I personally think American silver eagles (.999 pure silver 1 ounce coins) and 1/10 ounce Krugerrands would be ideal. Easy to carry, easy to store, easy to hide, easy to sell. It would be a hedge against cash not being accepted and against having to buy something absolutely vital to survival.

Here's a website with a little more information on the subject: http://www.cmi-gold-silver.com/small-survival-gold-silver-coins.html

And unlike a closet full of diapers, you can always sell your gold and silver when you're sixty and buy a fishing boat.

Addendum: Trading is also something I see being a better option if you're on the the move. I can't see you inviting people to your home and offering things to trade. But I can see knocking on someones door and asking if they have something they'd be willing to trade to you. From that perspective precious metals are good idea for a bug out bag. Ten twentieth-ounce gold coins can buy a lot of good will for a traveler. That's less then an ounce added to your pack weight, but it could reward you more then a similar weight of any other tool.
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Diapers? - 08/01/08 02:50 AM

Originally Posted By: AROTC
Ten twentieth-ounce gold coins can buy a lot of good will for a traveler. That's less then an ounce added to your pack weight, but it could reward you more then a similar weight of any other tool.


Show up on my doorstep with little slips of what you say is gold, and 14K gold at that, and I will value it as I would any fishing sinker. Show up with what you say are silver coins and I will give you the face value.

It would be imprudent to do otherwise. Because, in the end, how do I know it is really gold. There are several modern metals that look remarkably like gold. How do I know it is 14K gold and not 10k? How do I know the current market value of gold I communications are down? For all I know gold went to $10 last night.

Some testing shows that presently a lot of the jewelry getting sold as high concentration gold are much less pure than marked. A very old trick that is hard to detect even in peaceful and well ordered times. People get desperate and you can be assured frauds will proliferate.

All that is even more true of silver where look-alike materials are more common and both testing and purity is harder to check.

A metals dealer can effectively test what your offering to make sure it is what you say it is and the purity marked. They have the test kit (appropriate reagent, scratch stone and comparison needles) and can draw strong conclusions. I would be guessing. So, to protect my investment and material goods, I would give you a much lesser fall back offer. Take it or leave it.

Of course buying precious metals has been pushed hard by people dealing in, or invested in, such materials. Which raises the price and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of increasing price. This is not much different than real estate. The truth of markets is that everything it worth what someone will give you for it.

I wouldn't be sure what your offering is what you say it is. And even then I really have no real direct and practical use for gold. So the price I'm willing to pay will be quite low.

Like travelers in hard times before noted you may be better off offering your labor and/or skill set to get what you need.
Posted by: wildman800

Re: Diapers? - 08/01/08 03:24 AM

I prefer silver rounds. They are 1 troy ounce of .99pct pure silver and those specs are stamped onto each coin. When I buy them, I pay the current price for an ounce of silver plus a $1.50 handling fee per round to the coin dealer.

I try to purchase 1 oz per payday. In reality though, I don't/can't be at the store every payday. I watch the price of silver and when it has dropped, I will go then and buy several rounds vs buying it as it is hitting a new high.

I don't have much nor do I intend to ever have very much on hand, but I may have sufficient amounts to get me through a rough time when it matters. I am not buying silver as an investment to make money but as an extra option in an emergency situation.
Posted by: AROTC

Re: Diapers? - 08/01/08 02:35 PM

Well, thats an opinion. I just offer gold or silver as the most dense and durable type of trade good you could have. Far better then diapers I think.

Quote:
I think that if your preparing a fairly comprehensive supply base and your staying put, so weight and bulk aren't an issue, that a supply of diapers would have a place. I don't see carrying lots of sizes. I would invest in a good supply of mid-range disposables that do not use gels or other super-absorbents that mat degrade in time just to get people over the first few days. Smaller and larger children would have to make due with creative taping, pins and other field modifications.


Quote:
To avoid any resentments, legal issues these types of supplies would be given away or, at worse, traded on a sliding scale system according to means. People with things to trade don't get them all and those with nothing to trade are not excluded.


Gold neatly bypasses any possible resentment or legal issues. No one needs gold, they aren't going to come to you begging for it as a supply so you don't have to worry about becoming a charity...if you don't want to.

Travelers in the worst collapses in history didn't offer work to get what they wanted. They took it by force. Or they bought it, with gold. Thats what happened after the fall of the Roman Empire. In prisoner of war camps trade continues and what is valued most is gold and jewels. Name a war with large numbers of prisoners (The civil war, world war two) and its the same.

Finally, I'd reiterate that their most useful place would be in a bug out kit where you're moving and can't possibly carry all the supplies you'd ever want. You could offer skills in trade, but if you have to do that at every stop you might as well put down roots because you'll never get anywhere. And even if the price of gold drops to ten dollars, how far do you think the value of paper dollars will fall.

If someone doesn't want it, or refuses to give what you believe is a fair price...simply walk down the road. You get what you want, or you have to adjust what you think is a fair price. But it gives you options, lots of options that nothing else weighing less then an ounce can. Gold is and has been universal all over the world as being synonymous with money throughout history, I can't see that changing anytime soon.
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Diapers? - 08/01/08 03:33 PM

For those following the discussion about precious metals and otherwise interested I have opened another thread specifically to cover the subject. It can be found in this section under the title: "Precious metals?".