Gasoline Costs: Buy a New Car or Not?

As always, I ponder economics as a leading reason to think about LTP, and as my 1997 Jeep starts to experience some really interesting noises in its 3rd transmission, I ponder the economic impact of buying a 4th transmission vs. buying a new vehicle.

As a quick aside - we have no debt, other than a Mortgage, and we owe far less than the house is worth, even in this terrible, terrible real estate market. We never use debt to buy non-performing depreciating assets.for example,
I'd never use credit to buy a boat.
I would use credit to buy a boat, if income was dependent on having a boat and the income much greater than the debt cost of the boat over the term of the loan.

So, back to vehicles. Gas here is $3.09 a gallon now, and with oil closing above $100, expect gas to hit $4 to $5 a gallon very soon.

So, let's do some economics what-ifs.

At the current cost of gas, here's how I look at the cost of operating the old Jeep

Miles Per Gallon 15.5
Miles Per Month 1500
Cost Per Gallon $3.09
Monthly Fuel Cost $299.03
Annual Fuel Cost $3,588.39

Insurance (Annualized) $350.00

Maintenance & Such

Routine Fluids Etc. $525
Annual Inspection $120
Annual Registration $40
Mechanical Repairs $2,400

Subtotal $3,085

Monthly Payments $0
Annualized Payments $0
Annual Cost $7,023.39

Now, if I look to a new vehicle, I can compare these figures side by side:
Old Car/New Car
Miles Per Gallon 15.5/40
Miles Per Month 1500/1500
Cost Per Gallon $3.09/$3.09
Monthly Fuel Cost $299.03/$115.88
Annual Fuel Cost $3,588.39/$1,390.50

Insurance (Annualized) $350.00/$600.00

Maintenance & Such
Routine Fluids Etc. $525/$525.00
Annual Inspection $120/$120.00
Annual Registration $40/$40
Mechanical Repairs $2,400/$250
Subtotal $3,085/$935.00

Monthly Payments $0/$480
Annualized Payments $0/$5,760
Annual Cost $7,023.39/$8,685.50

So for the new car, my annualized cost - even factoring in $2400 a year in repair work on the old car - is still $1662.11 LESS than the annualized cost a new car.

In fact, using the same basic formulas, I learn that if gas goes to $5.46 a gallon, then - and only then - does it get cheaper to buy and operate a new car.

So the question is - do I think gas will go to $5.46? Yes, I do. When? Maybe not in 2008, but then again, Summer's coming. We hate debt. Car payments are expensive. But then again...gas might be more than car payments soon.

Something to think about.

Annual registration is the same on a 1997 vehicle and a 2008 vehicle, and only $40? I need to move where you live. I won't even tell you what the sales tax and reg costs us on the 2007 GMC P/U we bought last year, it would make your hair fall out.

Good job on all the figures, I think that there comes a point in time where an older vehicle will start nickle and diming you to death and needs to be replaced. That is why we got rid of our last home on wheels, it was killing us with repairs, much more than anyone could have anticipated. If you do buy a new ride, be sure to look into the extended warranty...

An very interesting post. Imho, one other factor to be considered is dependability. I recently traded for another vehicle when the milage on my old one was approaching 250,000. I REALLY hesitated because I do not like to use debt to purchase anything if I can avoid it. In addition to the ever increasing frequency of repairs, I didn't feel as though I could trust it, especially on long trips. If its one thing I want in a vehicle, its dependability.

Hi Martinfocazio,

I would get the new car. Although from your calculations an additional $1662.11 would be needed in the first year of ownership to finance the new vehicle, it will give you more dependability and reliability (possibly safety as well). Plus you have a new car and by purchasing a car with greater fuel economy you are helping to save the environment as well.

Over here in the UK current petrol prices are £1.05 / litre = $8 / US gallon.

You may want to carry a break even analysis on petrol pricing from year 2008 through year 2013 as follows;

year 2008 - $4
year 2009 - $5
year 2010 - $6
year 2011 - $7
year 2012 - $8

You may find that only in years 2008 and 2009 you are paying more for the new car than the old one. The following years may potentially be saving considerable sums of money to offset the first 2 years. This is of course is assuming that the monthly repayments for the new vehicle are fixed and not variable.

You also will have/should have a more valuable asset with the new vehicle than with the old. It may also be worth while finding out what the initial depreciation of the new vehicle is over the 5 year period and comparing this to the old vehicle.

What are you planning on buying that gets 40mpg? Not another Jeep, that's for sure. Would it be a suitable replacement for the Jeep given your lifestyle and vehicle needs? You can't go off roading in a Smart Car or a Prius.

That's almost double what it is in some counties down here. IIRC registration for me was $26 this year & flat rate for passenger cars or pickups. It varies by county because some have a wheel tax. Also no state inspections. Sales tax maxes out at 9.5-9.75% with no income tax on most professions.

What repairs account for the $250 per year on the new car?

What are the maintenance intervals on the new car? Depending on model, oil type, and type of driving, the new car may go farther between service intervals.

Hi martin,

Okay, a few questions - what is the $525 covering under routine fluids, and why would that be the same for both vehicles? Newer vehicles usually throw in free oil changes for the first year, and even 10 years ago the sealed radiator systems only needed to be flushed maybe every 75k or 100k miles.

You throw in $250 for mechanical repairs on a new vehicle, but I would imagine that anything would be covered under warranty. Maybe this is budgeted to cover a flat tire or non-warranty work?

You also say this new vehicle gets 40MPG. That's rather impressive and I wonder if it has the same carrying capacity as your 97 Jeep. With the family, safety is a consideration and for me personally, 1 grand a year to have my family in a safer and more reliable vehicle is probably worth it.

You might want to consider a car that's 2 years old. Someone else has taken the depreciation hit, they are typically still under warranty and that can be extended, and most of the kinks are worked out.

I like your breakdown and only question the above because it might make a new care more attractive. You also list $2400 annual repair for the Jeep, and I'm curious to know if that's backed by historical fact? If so, I'm not ever buying a Jeep. If that's because of your 3rd tranny, you need to go to another shop that knows what they are doing. Maybe that $2400 needs to be spread out over more than one year for accuracy?

Something I'm running into on the same topic is tires. My truck is going to run me ~$750 for new ones. If your Jeep is running down on tread, you need to factor that in, as a new-2yr. old car can spread that cost out more.

Martin,

Since you just had a new addition to the brood I would step back and reconsider what has been pointed out about dependability and reliability. DW probably has a strong desire to feel that the car will get her and NB to wherever. The "peace of mind" factor is huge in this equation. I understand you abhor the debt thing. I applaud you for that. If you can move into something vehicle-wise that can handle everyone and the weather conditions in Bucks County (I know what the weather can be like) I would do it in a heartbeat. I had a 1986 Ford Aerostar for 16 years. I got to the point where I just needed to drive it to the junk yard, take off the plates and walk away.

FWIW

Here's how I arrived at the figures in question:

Maintenance & Such
Routine Fluids Etc. $525/$525.00
That's oil changes, washer fluids, wiper blades, cabin air filter (I change mine 2x a year), Car washes, lamps, etc. all the small stuff.

Annual Inspection $120/$120.00
That's what it costs here.

Annual Registration $40/$40
Again, that's for a passenger car.

Mechanical Repairs $2,400/$250

The $2,400 is based on the fact that I do a lot of preemptive maintenance, when and where I can. I tend to replace shocks, springs, tires and rubber under the hood long before it's likely to fail. With an older vehicle, you get breakdowns that are more complex as well - things like a starter motor, alternator, and, as has happened to my 1997 Jeep Grand Cherokee, Tranny failure, despite proper maintenance (FWIW, my 2000 Ford Windstar al;so suffered a catastrophic tranny failure at 145K miles the day after a full fluid flush and replacement, so trannys go when they go, apparently).

We're close to 200K on the old Jeep. It IS reliable, but just this morning, it would not drop out of 4WD without some encouragement and driving in reverse. The 4WD transfer case also seems to have a cracked mounting bracket, that's a real PITA to fix...

Ah...I guess it's time. Here we go to the Prius. My father-in-law has one, he gets 50MPG. Or I can look at the Subaru. Oy. I hate this.

I won't try to sell you a Prius Martin (disclosure: I have two) but you might re-jigger some of your costs if you consider a hybrid vehicle. Such as maintenance - first year maintenance costs on my 2007 Prius were zero, because the basics (oil and fluid changes) are covered by the dealer. A fresh cabin air filter is $15 from the Internet or $4 cut from a whole house HEPA filter (your choice). fwiw the Prius has been mighty light on the mechanical upkeep (new 12V battery on the older 2002 in 2006, $100). Also for hybrids in particular you can factor in a federal tax rebate of some amount, depending on the sales figures for the car that year, at the time you bought it. For my first Prius I receive a $2k rebate, for this one I expect something more like $785. There could be some equivalent tax reduction at the state level as well. And there's no annual inspection for the Prius (in Washington State), if you mean emissions testing, which is waived for hybrids.

Anyway, whether to buy new or repair old can be pretty complex, even before you take into account what you want/need/desire - just an observation on costs. I still maintain buying a car is the worst investment most of us ever make, no matter what we get.

You can get good mileage and still have 4wd. The Jeep Compass, Subaru Forester and Honda Element all get great mileage for a truck or SUV. I drove my Compass from Edmonton to San Francisco last October with the wife. Fuel and a mid trip oil change cost less than flying by a surprising margin.

And if you get the Forester with a turbo it has the best 0-60 time of any SUV...wahoo!

First thing I wanted to mention, is that I try to avoid buying a completely new vehicle if I can. My '07 Envoy Denali I bought for less than $30,000 with 1,700 miles on it. Brand new, it would have been over $42,000. I saved $12,000 just by buying slightly used, and I still got most of the warranty. Sure, deals like that are tough to find, but there are so many nearly perfect slightly used vehicles out there, that most of the time it just isn't worth it to buy brand new. Often you can find one or two year lease returns with very low mileage. This is where being friends with a good used car dealer can come in handy.

Next, one of the best things about newer cars is the comprehensive warranty. I love having a warranty. Anything goes wrong and the dealer fixes it. For me, that's worth having a newer vehicle as my daily driver. Especially now that vehicles in general are very complicated and expensive to fix.

Finally, I don't like vehicles that start to give me trouble or that have knowingly been in some kind of crash. Therefore, if I have a vehicle with a problem I can't fix on my own, that leaves me stranded more than three times; or is involved in a crash (which, even after being fixed, can still have hidden structural problems), I get rid of it.

It's not worth it to me to hang onto something that I have doubts about. Not for a daily driver. In my experience, when you need it most, is when it's going to conk out on you. For me, reliability and dependability is worth paying a bit extra.


My advice, search around. If you don't think you need it right now, at least keep an eye out for a good deal. See what things go for, research the vehicles you like, and then if you see something that seems like a solid deal, go for it. Don't wait too long though, the worst thing to do is wait until your vehicle dies, and then go searching around because you need a vehicle ASAP. When you don't need it, it's a lot easier to make a well thought out decision and do better research. Good Luck with whatever you choose to do!




That's not true. It's quick, but not that quick.

You're right...I should have said 'of any reasonably priced SUV'. I don't generally consider SUVs like the Cayenne, Inifinti FX45 or the SRT Cherokee to be SUVs in the same way.

It's still under 6 seconds and there aren't very many SUVs at any price that can beat that.

Just making sure you weren't putting the wrong info out there.

There were, and are, quite a few SUVs as fast or faster; such as those you mentioned, as well as a few Mercedes AMG models, GMC Typhoon, and possibly Trailblazer SS. Quickest 0-60 and "quickest 0-60 in it's price range" are two entirely different animals.

You're right though, it is smoking fast for what it costs. That engine also has plenty of modifications availible to make it even faster, if you're a speed-freak like me.

Martin,

Remember that the kids are not bonsai...they will grow and need room. Two kids and a child seat in the middle of the back is going to be an interesting trick. The Mazda5 may not be a bad idea. I have no affiliation with Mazda in any way.....Just another thing to stir the pot.

MoBOB

If you're into Hybrids and want something about the same size as your Cherokee, check out the Ford Escape Hybrid/Mercury Mariner Hybrid/Mazda Tribute. ~30mpg city and highway, plenty of interior room for you and the kids, a basic AWD setup (not quite as off-road worthy as a Jeep, but more-so than a Prius), and doesn't cost much more than a Prius.

Here's one messing around off-road:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1iHGwj7MUA


Just a thought, but it sounds like it would be perfect for you.

Martin,

I look at the cost of transportation as just that, a cost. I plan around that expense and adjust as income and other expenses change.

I gave up buying cars about 20 years ago. After running a number of cars into the ground (10 years, 100K or more miles) I decided the hassle of the unexpected breakdowns, maintenance and repair and towing bills wasn't worth it.

I've been leasing my cars since 1989. I know what my costs are going to be, generally all repairs are covered by the warranty, I get free roadside service for as long as I use the car, I don't worry about one of us getting stranded when the timing belt breaks, and I get more car for the dollar. I deal with one dealer and after 6 cars with her I get the best rates and usually save $8-10K over sticker.

To buy the same car as I lease would nearly double my payments and after 4 or 5 years I've got a car that isn't worth of what I would pay in lease costs. Ain't no equity in cars.

I did buy a used car for daughter a few years ago that, even after some serious pre-deal checking, has cost me as much in repairs and upkeep as I paid for the car.

Downside to leasing in PA is the 9% sales tax, thanks Ed. (Gov. Ed Rendell).

By the way, your cost difference works out to less than $5 a day. Is the comfort and security of new car worth that?

To add my $.03 (inflation)...

While you're considering a new car, you might want to consider diesel. My diesel SUV gets 21/27 real world, and 31 mpg nursed on the highway during a recent trip, and 600-700 miles per tank. That's a lot of bug-out idling and road time when needed, and until late last year diesel was cheaper than regular unleaded. Of course now the price per gallon has zoomed up there, but it won't stay that way relative to the price of gasoline for long. And an added boon is that it has less and less onerous emissions than a gasoline engine with the new ultra-low sulfur diesel and diesel engines have tons of torque -- great for pulling things.

Leasing isn't really an option, because the new vehicle will go to my wife, and I just looked over HER monthly mileage, and it's WAY higher than the mileage allowance for a lease.

I also live in a place where not having a vehicle simply isn't an option.

I re-ran some numbers (see the Google Spreadsheet here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pe_B8vgjx0mQTNyioMLMZfw&hl=en

..and I've decided to run the old Jeep into the ground, and then I'm going to buy something new for my wife. Nothing but fluids and minor repairs from now on - if a strut goes, the Jeep goes.
I didn't realize there's a LOT of 0% financing deals out there, so I'll do a 0% 36 month deal when it's time.

Funny thing is that I'll be getting the old Ford Windstar and my wife will get the newest vehicle.

Looking at a Honda Odyssey or Toyota Sienna. 3 Kids - need the 3-row seating of the minivan. I'll never buy a Ford again, and I don't ever go off-road anymore, and I've found just about ANY Front-Wheel drive vehicle is fine in the snow.

What I'd really like is a Subaru Forrester 2.5 XT, but it won't haul the family. The tribeca has more room, but crap mileage.

OY. I absolutely HATE this process - that's why it's been over 10 years since we bought a new vehicle. I can't stand the darn things.

One of my engineer passengers has a Prius. If I understood him correctly, all the savings he got in gas were exchanged for the new battery (batteries?). No real cash savings. I don't know anything about the costs (real-life, not just upfront) of making and disposing of batteries. Just tossing it out.

Personally, if you've got one good family vehicle, that should be enough. You usually take the train to work, don't you?

Sue

No, I have a 40 minute drive to a bus stop, and then 2 hours on the bus. The last parking space fills at 6:00 AM, exactly, so I have to be there before 6AM. I can't drag the whole family out of the house to leave at 5:15 AM, and I don't get home until 6:00 or so - exactly in the middle of the dinner prep time - so the drive to and from the bus is what it is.

As far as the Prius & the engineer.

I notice that all the people who provide "expert" opinions on hybrids don't own them, drive them or pay for them. I know people who have had hybrids from generation 1, and NOT ONE has told me it wasn't 100% worth it in terms of costs, maintenance and all the rest. Even with Battery replacement.

And, dare I say, there's more to the decision to buy a car than what I spend now - what will it cost my children in terms of what I leave of a messy earth for them. Mileage matters a lot to me, an so do emissions.

As far as leasing and new vehicle warranty, thats nice that someone else takes care of it, but vehicles never break down when the dealer service department is open, they wait until a weekend or holiday and then you have to have it towed to the dealer, find a rental (paid for by them or not its still a pain to transfer everything over), etc. To me thats like saying you know a storm is coming but your going to wait for FEMA to take care of you. I've had a couple broken parts on my non warranty vehicle, one was a fuse, simple enough to replace after I had overlooked it the first time and pulled and replaced the starter, other was a flat tire which I fixed with a plug kit and since I have a full size spare was able to drive the 250 mile trip home easily.
Keep your older one and keep maintaining it. Any small parts you can always buy extra. Find out why your transmission is failing multiple times, maybe its running hot, add a gauge and see then add an external cooler.
Now is a really bad time to buy a new vehicle, the price of fuel keeps going up and many more hybrid/eectric/alternate fuel vehicles are in the works so your better off waiting and see what ends up being our fuel source in the long run.

Do you have almost a three hour one-way commute?

Here is advice that I was given early on:

Live close to where you work.

It saves, money, time and your sanity. My brother almost commuted away his kids's childhoods. He had a 2.5 hour commute one way to work. Then he found a job 10 minutes from home that pays more money. Now he spends an extra 5 hours per day with his family and pockets the savings from the commute too.

The second job he took is not quite as "prestigious" as his past job, but I can tell that he and his family are happy with the change.

I see the move closer to work solution a lot, but the problem is that isn't always possible. I'm trying to find a place closer to my work now which means selling my 60k house and buying a 160k house. Which I could do, except taxes also triple when I get any closer to work so that puts those homes closer out of budget. everyone wants to live close to work and that drives the prices up.

I just re-read this. Did you actualy get a flush, or just a fluid and filter replacement. I see a lot of places trying to talk people into a flush and with an older tranny it always does more harm than good.

Also if you are looking at suburu, a lot of people around my parents (way in the country) bought them thinking perfect a 4wd car. Now a lot of people are selling them because they AWD and underpowered for the hills so the gas mileage isn't much better the trucks and SUV's the replaced. Then they found the maintenace cost is higher, car suspension gets knocked out of alignment easier, timing belts instead of timing chains so you have to tear into the engine often to replace the belt along with a bunch of other parts. Then most people kept their suv/truck for when they needed to haul something so the cost of isuring another vehicle ate most of the gas savings. So in the mountain states like WV, MD, PA there are a bunch of used ones for sale really cheap.

With this as your starting point, I agree.

Here is more advice that I was given early on:

Whether you believe that you CAN or believe that you CAN'T, you are always right.

This applies in survival situations just as much in running your day-to-day life.

If your life depended on finding an affordable home closer to work, do you feel comfortable that up to this moment that have you have done everything possible to make it happen? My guess is that you are a survivor and if your life really depended on it, you would figure out some way to pull it off. Real estate turns regularly. Unless you are looking every day, there is always more property to look at. You never know when a bargain distressed property will hit the market.

Yea, I'm sure its not impossible. I just neet to find the repo'ed house for 120k in the area with the 160k+ houses. The hard part is selling my current house, we just took it off the market for a month after one year of being on the market.

Martin,

Let me reinforce your decision to keep your Jeep. Even the cost of a new motor is less expensive than a whole new car. Same goes for the other biggies. As long as you can keep the body in good shape (salted roads, GGGRR!) just continue to budget a car payment anyway as a way of getting ready for a new motor. Once you build up the necessary "payments" any additional "payments" made into the budget can go towards vacations and other things. I think you are on the right track.

I understand the commute thing. When I was performing in a theater company in Morrisville we had a couple of guys that commuted to The City every day, 2 hours one-way. They loved the Manhattan wage and PA cost of living differntial.

MoBOB

Since I don't know much about those batteries that power the hybrids, I did a little googling, and found some interesting stuff.

"Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage"
http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188

"Pragmentalists vs Environmentalists (Part 1): Prius: Green or Greenwash?"
http://www.khoslaventures.com/presentations/Hybrids.pdf

This article equates a Prius with a Gucci handbag: they may be popular but people are always gullible to good advertising. This article also mentions the 'flex-fuel' cars: "It (Prius) and its cohort hybrids are unlikely to make 50% penetration of the new car sales worldwide (or US) anytime soon. Flex-fuel cars went from under 5% of new car sales in Brazil to over 75% in less than three years because they don't cost any more than a regular car. They are projected to be 50% of GM, Ford, and Chrysler’s new car sales by 2012 in the US."

I am not familiar with flex-fuel cars, but I hate buying a new car so much I tend to wait until mine are almost composting back into the soil before I look for a new one.

Are flex-fuel cars available (or legal) in the U.S. at all?

Sue

Many Fords and Chevys are Flex Fuel. Anything that takes E85 is considered flex fuel...

The first link about the prius outdiong the hummer has been proven false, I think there is a snopes page on it already. IIRC some of the "facts" it uses are the pollution caused a the NiMH battery manufacturing plant which was decomissioned years ago.

Flex fuel cars are available in the US, all the GM Full size SUV's and some cars are flex fuel capable, back to the 1998 refresh of the S10 had a flex fuel option. The kroger gas station beside my work put in an e85 pump but my truck isn't flex fuel capable so I can't use it.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/flextech.shtml

Flexfuel vehicles are designed to run on ethanol blends of up to 85% (E85). Ethanol is a whole 'nother can of worms as farmers grow corn just to be made into fuel and all other crops become less profitable.

Personally, I go down the big oil + government conspiracy theory path. I know it's possible to make amazing, high performance, low emission, fuel efficient vehicles. It's been done many times in the past but these vehicles never made it into production. Even electric cars have been successful and proven but never produced (watch 'Who Killed the Electric Car' if you don't believe that)

My motorcycle gets 40MPG+, goes 0-60 faster than just about anything on 4 wheels, has a top speed of over 180mph, and runs on 87 octane pump gas. There's more than power to weight ratios going on there.

Motorcycle safety is something I could debate for hours. As a licensed motorcycle driving instructor I've seen and heard tons...but that's not what this thread is about.

I recently read an article about a Smart ForTwo car getting into a head on collision with a full sized car. They're built so tough that the structure was still intact and the doors still opened...they're built like little bomb shelters!

Don't forget Safety. Exponentially increasing miles traveled is a good way to tempt fate. My brother commuted 2 hours and 15 minutes each way to work for a couple of years and it took a big toll. Unless it's your full time job (Trucking, Regional Sales, etc.) I would do everything in my capacity to avoid it. Of course, moving closer to work can often mean higher realestate costs (but also values when you sell) and larger community problems such as crime and general congestion.

Oh well, at least Martin's not driving all of that. He can spend his two hours on the bus either reading, listening to books on tape or perhaps even Wi-Fi surfing. I'm not sure how he finds time for his family, his work and this site when he's burning over 10 hours of his week on travel. Yikes. I guess you could also train yourself to sleep for the 2 hours on the bus and 6 at home.

The Hummer Vs Prius myth is debunked here by the Pacific Institute's Integrity of Science initiative:
http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_vs_prius.pdf

In the UK the Prius drivetrain and batteries are covered by a 8 year warrany. Toyota have also said they will recycle the batteries. However what drove to opt for a Prius for my next company car was the GBP£900 tax saving per year, with the car expected to be in my life for the next four years that will add up nicely and that is before the gas mileage is taken into account. That tax saving was versus a Honda F-RV (Small SUV, the Diesel version of which has a combined ~37MPG).

The other front runner for me was a BMW 3 Series Touring with the 1.8 litre Diesel which claims fuel consumption of just under 60MPG. The 2.0 litre Diesel is only marginally less. All courtesy of BMW's EfficientDynamics programme. If they options list hadn't been so damn pricey I would have opted for the BMW.

I'm jealous of you folks in the UK. Everything comes with a diesel. NOTHING comes with a diesel here.

Really? Surely Diesel is readily available for trucks, so why doesn't one of the big auto makers release their full Diesel engine line in the US and clean up?

The US has some strict emissions rules and most Diesels don't meet them. The US auto makers do have diesel 3/4 ton trucks and they are currently having issues with the new low sulfur fuel. Diesel in the US has a bad rep in cars due to an early 80's gm gasoline to diesel converted engine and the few slow, dirty VW and Mercedes diesel cars that were sold here.

Mercedes and VW had/have quite a few diesels over here, but other than that we've got very few options for diesels. I personally like diesel, but few over here do. In general, diesels are seen as noisy and smelly compared to gas engines, and diesel fuel in winter is more expensive than gas. Therefore, Americans haven't really taken a liking to them.

I'd have given anything to buy my Jeep Compass with a diesel. it's offered in the UK and it's a great package. They tried the diesel on the Liberty in Canada and they were backordered for over a year...they still canned the option.

My cousin is a mechanic for a dodge dealer. The Liberty Diesel was backordered for so long due to parts issues. The Mercedes Diesel had nothing but problems with US fuel and they had most of the ones their dealership sold sitting in the service department for long periods of time waiting for parts. Thats why they canned the option.
They really should have revised the Cummins 4 cyl engines when they did the 6cyl in 2003 and started sicking those in everything.

Do you have access to Google? I suggest you consider using it before you ask things like "Are flex-fuel cars available (or legal) in the U.S. at all?" and also research your other assertions a bit more closely.

I'm glad you said that and not me

Can you compromise somewhere between your Jeep and a Prius. I drove a 4 banger Chevy S10 for years, still had 4x4 but could hit 28mpg. Now all the small/mid sized new trucks cost just as much as a full size truck and with the v8 and v8 engines get the same gas mileage but going older a 4 banger manual s10/ranger can still get close to 30mpg which still having some capabilities.

Other option is to see what transmission can be put in your jeep, maybe a manual or a heavy duty auto.

I have attempted to work close to home. To make a long story short, I make - literally - exactly 6 times more doing the same job in New York City that I can earn out here in Bucks County.

I can't afford to nor do I want to live closer to the city, we have very solid roots here.

Just in case you don't know - a 3BR apartment in New York City, in a building you would actually want to live in - will cost you around $5,000 to $10,000 a month rent. Really.

I grew up in the suburbs of New York, I hated it. I lived in Manhattan for a long time, I loved it, but always knew I'd live in the country one day. Now I have both. 3 days a week in Manhattan, 4 days a week at home. It's a great mix for me, and well worth the commute, both financially and mentally.

I work on the bus, so for me, the commute ends at the bus stop. Now that the third kid is here, I'm changing my bus station to one that's closer, but has a longer bus time, but now my "commute" to the bus stop will be only 8 miles, and I'm pondering riding my bike when it warms up.

BINGO.

I have 4 acres, three bedrooms, a rural setting, just under $3,000 a year in taxes and a house that cost me under 200K when I bought it.

My parents sold their house on Long Island - 2 bedrooms, 1/4 acre, $12,000 a year taxes (!) - for just under $500,000.


If I wanted to buy a 3BR anything that would reduce my door-to-door to, say, 40 minutes, aside from the fact that I'd absolutely hate living there and would be miserable, it's no less than $800,000 and more like 1.25 Million, plus taxes.

Really.

and I'll bet your house is like mine, pick it up and move it and its worth three times as much. All the houses closer to my work that cost three times as much are about the same size or slightly bigger but are not nicer in any way.

If you can ride a bike then its silly to buy a new car. Buy a decent bike and lock and nice rain coat for less than one months payment on a car and bike to the bus stop.

$5,000 would be cheap for a 3 BR in Manhattan.

Congrats on the new baby.

I've never understood US diesel prices...taxes maybe? In Alberta the only thing cheaper than Diesel is propane but hardly anybody does propane conversions anymore. I think it may have spiked up recently since our gas prices are higher than I ever remember them but it's still pretty cheap if your diesel isn't a fuel guzzling 3/4 ton truck.

The US Diesel tax is higher, we (well our .gov) considers the big trucks which haul our groceries to be evil so they tax their fuel more.
There have been a couple of new stories on people making their own biodiesel and getting fined using it on the road since they are not paying the tax on it.

US National average right now for gas and diesel is:

$3.13 regular
$3.55 diesel

That's a difference of 42 cents or about 12%. Considering diesels get anywhere from 20% to 40% better mileage than a comparable gas engine, a diesel is still making out pretty well, even with diesel fuel prices at their winter peak.

The problem though, is that we don't have too many comparable engines anymore. The diesels in 3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks have become performance options instead of money saving options, thanks to a hp/tq war between truck manufacturers.

From what I've been reading though, that should change very soon. As, a lot of manufacturers have smaller and less expensive diesels coming out. Closer to what we see in Europe.

I would love a Jeep Unlimited 4-dr in deisel. It would be perfect in my mind.

That seems to be a similar story to Diesel prices in the UK. Wierd when you get better fuel mileage from it, it requires less processing by the refiners and with the new particulate filters can be as clean as a traditional Petrol engine at the tailpipe.

If anyone is considering a new hybrid and are happy to wait you might want to hold off a few months to see the details of the new Prius (due on roads 2009) and a new version of the Honda hybrid that is in the works, plus a number from other makers that are supposed to be significantly more efficient.

I would be interested if anyone can comment authoritatively on the economics of diesel fuel: I have heard from one source that diesel fuel is distinct from gasoline, in that diesel is a petroleum middle distillate and comes out of a refinery separate from gasoline (and kerosene etc). So that if the US vehicle fleet as a whole were to switch from gasoline to diesel in order to take advantage of diesel's benefits, its not so much a matter of switching over production of gasoline to diesel to meet the higher demand (because you can only get x amount of diesel from y barrels of petroleum), its a matter of importing more petroleum to make more diesel, and possibly raising prices for an ever scarcer diesel fuel. In other words, the US is still in global competition with other consumers for that barrel of oil, whether that barrel yields diesel or gasoline or both.

Disclaimer: I own three gas-consuming cars and I swear I'm not at the sharp end of some anti-diesel community, I would like an answer to the question though: if the US were to see a 20, or 50% increase in diesel demand from autos, what happens to petroleum demand (from which gas and diesel are made), and what happens to diesel prices, to answer the demand?

IANAPE (I am not a petrochemical engineer ) but I believe that the statement is correct but doesn't tell the whole story. As far as the actual distillation process is concerned, there is a fixed amount of diesel in each barrel of crude. However, after that step, there are additional chemical processing stages that can convert one product into another. I know that refiners do this for gasoline to increase the yield of gasoline from each barrel beyond the fixed percentage you'd get just from straight distillation, so I don't see why it wouldn't work with diesel as well. However, you'd probably have to spend a lot of time and money building new processing facilities to handle a 50% spike in diesel demand if so many people switched over.

Something to consider in that equation. There's millions of gallons of used restaurant cooking oil going to waste every day that could easily be converted to biodiesel. I wonder how much that would affect diesel prices. Right now, restaurants have to pay substantial amounts for grease collection. I'm sure they'd be more than happy for someone to take their "waste" for free. Although they might see it as a way to make money and start charging for it.

The "french frymobiles" as they are lovingly called are a good option. The hurdle has to do with some of the regulations dealing with "disposing" of the waste. Basically, if a union-controlled company can't "properly" dispose of it then it will be blocked for average Joe to get his hands on it in bulk. In general I have no problem with the restaurants making a few bucks off of selling their old oil. It is a legitimate commodity and there would be a legitimate market for it.

Remember, when Deisel invented his engine it was designed to run on vegetable oil. Ditto for Ford and his engine.

My parents ran a small restaurant for several decades. They said that when they started, companies would pay them to pick up their used oil. Not sure when things changed and then they had to start paying to have it hauled away.

I'd check with your state government before fueling solely on biodiesel. I've heard of more than a few cases where somebody makes their own fuel, the government finds out, and the next thing they know they get HUGE bill for tax on the manufacture of fuel. In one case it was a guy in his 70s getting a bill for over 7000 dollars all at once.

Its not a tax on the manufacture of it, its a tax on using it on the road. The gas station pump price has the road tax added in so when you make your own your not paying that tax. They only tax if your driving on the road, for example my parents buy diesel for their farm tractors and they tell the gas station ahead of time and don't have to pay the road tax.

I'm trying to find a way to go straight from crop to biodiesel, everything I find on it tells how to convert from vegetable oil so I'd have to make vegetable oil then convert to biodiesel, I'm wondering if there is a more direct method.

I think that some people have been collecting waste cooking oils to use in their own cars.

If enough people try it, soon there will be a charge for it, instead of the stuff being dumped.

Did not say and do not think it is a bad idea. I think that waste vegetable oil is a great thing to use as fuel. Why wouldn't it be? Instead of pulling something out of the Earth to burn, WVO burns something that might be dumped onto the Earth as a pollutant.

I'd like to find a small engine (about 5 hp) that would run on it and was not a big behemoth like a listeroid. A good webpage about running stuff on vegetable oil is: http://www.me.columbia.edu/me3410/spring06/group01/.

Wow. They must be paying you well to put up with this kind of lifestyle. Best of luck with it.

Starting your own business might be an alternative.

Just about any diesel will run on straight waste oil as long as it's filtered...they just need to have a fuel system capable of pumping it and they need to be warmed up first. You can buy systems for trucks that have two tanks. One for regular diesel and one for oil. Engine starts and warms on diesel, then switches over.

I was self-employed for 10 years. I did well at it, but I just got tired of the administrative BS, constantly needing to close the next sale, always dealing with things other than what I was best at. I'm hardly a "workaholic" - my 3 days in are, admittedly, long days, however, I spend FAR more time with my family now than I ever could when I was self-employed. When I need or want to work from home, I do. When I need to take days off, I do - with no vacation days used. But I also get to work in an office that is fun, interesting and challenging. The people are smart, from all over the world and we work well. We have top-flight clients who pay us what we're worth, and as I realized a while ago, on any given day, about 50 Million people see use web site that I am working on in some way. So, for me, this works.

Oh - and my time on my bus ride - that' my work time. My broadband card in the laptop is just fantastic - and I'd like to point out that I leave the office at 3PM. Now how many people here who work in an office can say that they reliably can leave at 3PM virtually all the time.

Anyway - it's a lifestyle that works for me, and I don't think there's much I want to change.

Final point...remember - I have multiple sets of fallback work options. I'm a firefighter, I have medical training, I also have other experience with certain aspects of law enforcement (not as a sworn office) and that work has been an interesting sideline.

I am glad to hear that your schedule maximizes time with your family. That was my point all along.

You have good points about the admin BS when you have a business. I have a wonderful partner that enjoys that part of it and makes it look easy. Thank you for pointing that out. I don't do it entirely by myself.

But as for closing the next deal, I kind of enjoy that part.

I say get a new fuel efficient car. We here are well on our way to seeing $4 a gallon. See here. http://www.honolulugasprices.com/

Lucky.

The price of gas here has been more than $4 a gallon for a while now. Last I checked the price had come DOWN to $1.09 a Liter for regular ($1.05 if you get lucky). At 3.79 Liters per US Gallon that's almost $4.15 a Gallon by my math.

Its still hard to jusitfy a new vehicle. I spend $200 - $300 a month in gas now, so say I buy a cheap car at $199/month and put only $100 a month gas in it I break even. But a new car will mean higher insurance so my cost goes up. And thats assuming my gas cost will drop from $200 to $100 wich means 40mpg min. Some cheap cars can't even do that. For example the Kia Optima the insurance company stuck me in barely got 25mpg.

Hey Hacksaw,

Considering the amount of oil you are sitting on in Alberta, the high price of gas really must hurt!

Gas is about 1.15/L here in Northern Ontario.

Check out gas prices across Canada and the US at http://www.gasbuddy.com/ The gas price maps are interesting and you can find the cheapest gas available so you know where to fill-up when travelling.

Mike

Thanks for the tip Mike!

Eugene is right. My 91 Mazda gets near 40mpg and it's cost me less than $1000 since 2000...including buying the car! On the flip side I can't take it to many of the places I camp with my Jeep.

My advice to anyone considering buying a hybrid, is to buy a fuel efficient economy car instead. A new Prius costs ~$24k. You could purchase any number of economy cars for half the price, vehicles that get upwards of 30/38 mpg city/highway. Most people will NEVER realize a gas savings of $12k during the lifetime of owning their hybrid...

Now if you have the cash to burn and simply want to buy a hybrid to support the Green industry that's one thing, but if you are looking at buying one to save money you won't... unless you keep the vehicle for 10 years... the average consumer trades or buys a new/newer vehicle every 4-6 years... just something to consider.

I agree: spend money up front to buy fuel efficiency, but avoid the hybrids.

In my experience, decent fuel efficiency means driving an import. That's the unfortunate reality. The folks in Detroit/Windsor, I'm afraid, just don't get it: 40 USMPG is the minimum acceptable mileage rating, and 200,000 miles is the minimum acceptable operating life without major drivetrain repairs.

I was a Chev man for years and years, like my father before me. But since I always bought used, I bought an endless conveyor belt of repair bills, and finally had enough.

4-cylinder 5-speed Toyotas and Mazdas have served me remarkably well over the last decade. Always used, but gently used and well maintained. They see temperature ranges from -40C to +35C, snow and gravel roads, and are pretty much unstoppable.

I have a 91 Corolla with 365,000 km (over 220,000 miles) that is still going strong. Original engine etc. I gave it to my nephew for Christmas. If he takes care of it, it's good for another 100,000K.

Hey, seriously, if the Big Three finally get it together, I'll switch back. But I doubt that will happen in my lifetime. They're focussed on disposable cars and saturation marketing. Sad to say.

(FWIW, I'm still in love with Chevvys. A friend has a '28 coupe, all original and running, and it's simply a work of art. I'm wearing down his resistance to selling, slowly but surely.)

The Camry Hybrid has similar trim options to the XLE model. The current MSRP for it is only ~$200 more than the 2.4L model which has the same size gas engine while getting +12City/+3Hwy mileage. It is possible to get much better mileage than EPA numbers with it. I usually get +14/+6 or more without having changed my driving habits significantly. To get 30/38 mpg requires going to a smaller vehicle.

Edit:
The terrain will have a large impact on the mpg of a hybrid. Surprisingly some of the best I've gotten is in the mountains. Nothing is going to get good numbers going up and the hybrids use none coming down. Long gentle grades aren't the best. Going from school to home & back (~100 miles ea. way) I get about 43 highway going & 41 returning.

Edit 2: I was looking at the base price. For comparably equipped vehicles the Hybrid is cheaper than the 2.4L XLE.