Bugout back for longterm use

Posted by: NIM

Bugout back for longterm use - 11/19/07 08:38 PM

Hi all,

Two years ago I made a last resort kit. It was designed to allow myself (and friends) to flee to the remote areas of Canada to survive in the "wild" for a minimum of 10 years. (assuming we avoid freezing/starving to death).

This contingency was planned to allow a military grade plague to completely burn out as a fink of a friend sent me some links on the murders of microbiologists around the world. In short, this isn't a high probability for me, but it was fun to plan for.

I have done several updates to the kit that haven't reflected my 2005 list and I hope to have them up in the new year. For those of you who would like to critique what I had two years ago I have attempted to convert the word document to a webpage. If I have done it correctly it can be viewed at:
http://www.freewebs.com/ditchciv/

From my tests it is a very ugly webpage (my first so be kind) and some images did not get converted. All text should be viewable though.

I'd like to know what you personally would add or remove (or any suggestions)
After that I can learn how to make a REAL webpage and post the improvements.

Hope you enjoy.

-NIM
Posted by: teacher

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 12:25 AM

Nice kit -- ten years?

Long term survival involves some very different considerations; long term nutrition (food and vitimans) growing older (perscrips and glasses) and just plain stuff wearing out.

<One example: water filtration. How do you 'treat" 100-200 galons easily?)


Another consideration is knowledge/ information. Consider 3-4 books; medicine, foraging, primitive skills, etc.

Teacher
Posted by: NIM

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 12:55 AM

I've spent (much to my wife's current dismay) over ten grand on various survival schools etc. I'm hoping some of it "took" smile

I'll have to hunt my food down and replace everything with natural materials. Anything I bring in is just a perk that will eventually wear out or be lost.

That katadyn filter should last long enough that I'll be 70+ before I require a new element. (I do have an extra one cached). I'm not even sure I'll bring the filter. Honestly, it is mostly good for removing radioactive particles. In my region the water is clean enough that you can drink directly from the lakes with boiling

If I do need perscrips I plan on learning the appropriate herbal remedies (if any). My literature has been upgraded in my new kit to include common herbal remedies and has the entire Peterson's guide compressed (and readable) to 11 pages print on write in the rain paper on a color laser printer (magnifying glass for later years). Most of it is memorized but I know I'd like a cheat sheet for any real world tests...even to just calm my nerves. For the same reason I have basic survival and 1st aid printed in like manner.

The only thing I've noticed is that medical support is almost totally limited to how the body heals itself when you have no hope of rescue. Bones must be "set" and there are no xrays etc.

I'm almost debating writing up a safety manual for the scenario. Besides hypothermia and starvation my major concern is human stupidity. Boiling water burns, knife cuts etc. Knife cuts will have to heal on their own. You can't stitch them or glue them closed as you risk greater infection (penetrating injury).
Better to avoid injury by safe work practices.

I have some stockpiles of medical supplies (vet grade meds and a last ditch pulser/zapper). Realistically, the body will have to heal itself. I carry prayer with me as well (it didn't show up in the photo smile

Good ideas Teacher! If you have any thoughts please fire them away. Even if we have to branch into other topics. There is such knowledge on this forum that I love the feedback/thoughts/constructive criticism.

-NIM
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 01:18 AM

Hi NIM,

If you plan on going primitive for your long term survival plan then the addition of a good axe, such as a Swedish Gransfor, should be included in your kit. You might want to include a betalight as well to give low level lighting (should last about ten years). Some titanium arrow heads may also be useful. BTW the water bottle you have there looks interesting. Do you have any details. I think I remember Primus used to make a very high spec titanium fuel bottle. Is this the water bottle?


Posted by: NIM

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 01:31 AM

The titanium water bottle is....WAS made by MSR. Sadly it is disco'd. You can find them on ebay for $150 +

You are right about the axe. It is on my xmas list for this year and if I don't get it I'm buying it. I chose the small woodsman axe (I think that was the model). I looked into the Betalights but the half life is twelve year I believe and I didn't want it to dim if I can't return (future generations). I opted for a new glow material that will glow for 24hrs on a 15 minute charge. Easily bright enough to read by until halfway through the night (based only on solar charging) after that you can use it for walking around the house. They should last for 10-20 years min.

Where do you get titanium arrow heads? That sounds great. Are they broadheads? Currently in Canada we can only use razor blades (although I plan on following none of the laws in an emergency).

Side note: Did you know that titanium sends off massive sparks when it hits quartzite? While digging a cache I almost had a heart attack when it happened to me. I had to do some research and test the titanium with a magnet before I was satisfied that I wasn't scammed with the crow bar:)

I really do endorse the titanium bottles. They don't leave any taste and you can boil water directly in them (more fuel efficient).

P.S. I love you guys! The good ideas keep coming!
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 03:54 AM

10 years... *sharpens the bubble popping needle*

Unless you are willing to become self sufficent, right now, I honestly don't think it is possible. Anything lasting 10 years is a radical TEOTOWAWKI-event, and that involves radical life style changes. You've got 47 pounds of stuff in your pack, if I read your website right- that is very marginal for what you are proposing. That would be ten years as a nomad, which means you summer in one location, and walk south starting in late summer.

The running away and playing Robinson Crusoe theory just doesn't work well. There are places were there aren't many people- they don't have many people for a reason. You are talking of heading off to the wilds of Canada, I assume inland due to the lack of a boat. Look at the historical tribal locations- people either stayed at the sea, or headed south for the winter. The places where it could be done with a reasonable degree of success are already crawling with people.

Great dream, but *pokes your dream bubble with the needle* nothing more. You've got a lot of money spent on classes- have you been practicing what you learned? Can you do a month, in winter, with what you've learned? Don't think in terms of theory, but have you actually done it.

But here is the real kicker. I'll take your scenario of a bioweapon release and run with it. When you come back, and you eventually will unless you die first, the survivors will have a resistance to it. You won't. If there are any sources of infection, like the survivors, you'll probably be up a certain creak without a canoe.

Oh, and your webpage needs some major help. I had to open the source to get half of it. MS Office makes poop out of HTML- Google "HTML Tutorial" and pick one. Then use notepad, or a replacement text editor like notepad++ or ConText. You'll have something the is much more friendly to look at. Either that, or export everything out as a PDF and post that.
Posted by: TheSock

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 11:02 AM

Living out of a pack for ten years sounds unrealistic. The indians had generations of experience passed on to them.
The good news is bio weapons don't work. The only recent attack the anthrax letters in 2001 killed less people than the attacker could have managed with a penknife in a crowd.
The Sock
Posted by: NIM

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 11:31 AM

PDF good call!

The tribes in my area did not go south for the winter. Nunavut didn't empty either if the history books are accurate. smile

I haven't done a full month in winter! I wish! If only work and the wife would be ok with it smile

Heck, I know it's a chance in hell! But if I'm feeling lucky ....


Ya, I honestly don't figure that a return to civilization will be possible. From the bugs I've heard about some of the nastier ones use spores or are like morgellons.

I will really have to clean the page up. I wasn't sure if it looked correct as I'm using a Mac.

Thanks IronRaven!
Posted by: NIM

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 11:38 AM

Bioweapons don't work? Crap, MOD must have wasted billions!

The anthrax wasn't in the air though, at least give me that.

Your're right AIDS isn't really killing enough people and the small pox blankets we gave to the indians likely weren't the cause of them getting that funky rash and dying smile

(tease enclosed)

We don't even need biowarfare...the pack is just as useful for a zombie apocalypse!


-NIM
Posted by: Blast

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 01:03 PM

NIM,

What are your plans for bug repellant? Mosquitos can drive a person nuts.

-Blast
Posted by: TheSock

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 01:34 PM

You've hit the nail on the head with the problem with bio-weapons. 'The anthrax wasn't in the air';
Deliver the biological weapon is the problem? The first world isn't the native indian tribes. We'd isolate infection.
The vector is the problem.

AIDS isn't a bio-weapon and zombies don't exist.
The Sock
Posted by: TheSock

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 01:56 PM

Yo are right the MOD has wasted a lot of money on bio-weapons.
We aren't the indians. We'd isolate an infection.
AIDS isn't a bio-weapon, but as you say; I am right, AIDS isn't killing enough people. 32 million people infected in the world at the moment and it's had 25 years to spread. Doesn't sound like you'll be walking through any empty cities.
And zombies don't exist.
The Sock
Posted by: TheSock

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 02:02 PM

You are right the MOD has wasted a lot of money on bio-weapons.
We aren't the indians. We'd isolate an infection.
AIDS isn't a bio-weapon, but as you say; I am right, AIDS isn't killing enough people. 32 million people infected in the world at the moment and it's had 25 years to spread. Doesn't sound like you'll be walking through any empty cities.
And zombies don't exist.
The Sock
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 02:07 PM

Quote:
Where do you get titanium arrow heads? That sounds great. Are they broadheads? Currently in Canada we can only use razor blades (although I plan on following none of the laws in an emergency).



You can get Titanium Broadheads here at,

http://www.aimtru.com/the-titanium-atom-complete-penetration-xidp114984.html

http://www.g5outdoors.com/#sec_montec


Thanks for the info on the water bottle. I'll have to see if there are any on ebay.

I also believe that there is available a Titanium Axe head as well as your Titanium crow bar. But for a cutting tool rather than a prying tool the Gransfor axe models are probably better in the long term as long as they are looked after and kept clean.




Posted by: raydarkhorse

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 03:14 PM

Originally Posted By: TheSock

The good news is bio weapons don't work. The only recent attack the anthrax letters in 2001 killed less people than the attacker could have managed with a penknife in a crowd.
The Sock

I would be interested in where you get your info about bio weapons. If all you’re basing your idea that bio weapons don’t work is the anthrax scare in 2001. The reason the Anthrax in 2001 didn’t work was not only the delivery system but also the fact that it was just anthrax spores and not anthrax not in a weaponized form.
Posted by: TheSock

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 05:42 PM

I'm basing it on the fact no ones ever got it to work. Nuclear and chemical have been used successfully. Where are the biological weapons success stories? We have natural disease breakouts all the time, but always successfully contain them. Certainly nothing like an end of the world scenario seems likely.
The Sock
Posted by: Johno

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 06:19 PM

Ah hell, zombies aren't real!

You plan to leg it away from a bio warfare attack, why the anti rad pills?

Biologicals do not always attack via the airway, yet you have no NBC suit.

Military NBC suits have a usable life of a month once removed from their packaging, less if contaminated. The same for respirator filters. That is a lorry load not a rucksack.

Take a good book with you, or several dozen.
Posted by: TheSock

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 07:45 PM

Why are we all having this conversation anyway? This isn't a surivalist site. And this idea of surviving the least likely end of the world scenario with a rucsack of gear sounds particularily far fetched. I for one am dropping out of this thread.
The Sock
Posted by: ira37

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/20/07 08:38 PM

Any plan to Bug out for 10 years better include the ability to live off the land literally, with 0 supplies brought in.

You would lose stuff, break stuff, run out and need to replenish from the enviroment.
Posted by: NIM

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/21/07 01:05 AM

Zombies aren't real? HAVE YOU SEEN ME WATCHING TV? I drool smile

True, if I'm where the agent is released I'm doomed. The air mask is just to get away from smoking environments (there was an evac when I was younger [tire storage fire] and it was hard to breath). The mask and the pills are there for really rare stuff and would be cached or left behind.

As per the book idea I have a palm I converted to run off solar that is cached. It has all the classics and learning books on it (complete works of shakespeare,math and medical texts etc). I plan on adding more eventually. Paper books are good too. I'll have to cache some reference books....too bad microfishe degrades.



-NIM
Posted by: NIM

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/21/07 01:07 AM

Let's ignore the reasons for leaving and work with a pack for longterm survival.

What are your thoughts Sock?

-NIM
Posted by: NIM

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/21/07 01:09 AM

Thanks for the links AM Fear Liath Mor.

-NIM
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/21/07 01:35 AM

The Nanuvat were a mostly coastal people, as I recall.

And planning for the one "chance in hell" is a good place to start, but you can probably do better. Let's work on the one in a million odds. smile

Sorry if I was sounding [censored], it wasn't my intent.
Posted by: NIM

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/21/07 01:35 AM

Thanks for the links AM Fear Liath Mor. Nasty broadhead!

-NIM
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/21/07 01:43 AM

Bioweapons do work.

I'd invite you to research Unit 731 of the Imperial Japanese Army. They used anthrax, plague and typhoid with frightening efficiency in parts of China during WWII. Estimates are 250K civilian fatalities just during TESTING. They buried literally tons of material in China and Korea before leaving; the strains of plague that were developed are still roaming around parts of Asia Major and being a problem today.

Dispersal systems are easy enough. Do you know how a flameless tear gas grenade works- same principles apply. The Japanese built and stocked ceramic canisters that could be released by artillery, aircraft or balloon, that would carry bubonic infected fleas and blood meal. Put a few black powder charges on the outside and mount an pressure altimeter if you want to air burst, otherwise just let if break on impact. Testing in hyperbaric chambers indicated that if you sent the fleas on a trans-Pacific flight under a balloon, then detonated them, 70% of them would get to the ground alive. They had plans to deploy them on the trade winds, but also by submarine launched balloons, and by sea plane launched from submarines. For anthrax, they used the same systems, just packed with spores wrapped in leather and laced with a nutrient broth. The only one that 731 couldn't really deploy other than by saboteurs was typhoid, although they had packed cannisters with it with the intent of targeting water supplies.

The trick is not killing yourself in the process of making them, and your delivery system, same as chemical weapons. And the Japanese were able to do it in the late 1930s and early 1940s, using hand made delivery systems. The only reason they didn't use them is.... Luck. Blind, pure, random luck is the only reason why the Allies had to dispose of this material, rather than having it used on us.
Posted by: NIM

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/21/07 11:28 AM

Hi Blast,

I've got that covered. I've thrown the mosquitoes a loop and I've gone nuts preemptively.

The problem I've run into is that it would be a waste of weight to bring bug dope (as it would quickly run out). I've tried most of the natural (as in 'found growing') repellents and they seem to be just seasoning.

I've only found two things that work (and 1 requires more testing). The first is the solar powered electronic mosquito repellent from Badlands. It cuts down the bites somewhere from 75-95% (testing needs to determine this figure more accurately). This is the only electronic device I've seen work. I used to try every new device that came out until I gave up. I had to hear from 3 different sources that this thing worked before I bought it this year.

The only natural solution (that I've found to work) is to cover yourself in mud. I'd suggest leaving your back bare to give the mosquitoes a target though. If you don't leave your back clear they go after your eyes/inside your nose. In my shelters at night (primitive) I smoke them out prior to going to bed. I HATE it when a lone mosquito buzzes my ear all night.

I'm trying to get used to accepting the bugs rather than fleeing from them. It is a slow processes. I know some tree planters who 'lost it' and sang "I'm a little teapot" while standing on a stump because of the bugs. A point of note: of all the tree planters I've talked to none have made a point of complaining about the bugs (unless asked). Why? I don't know. Maybe it is like birthing pain and it is forgotten smile

-NIM

Posted by: CityBoyGoneCountry

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/30/07 03:49 PM

I see 3 pages of replies and no one has yet mentioned... SEEDS!!!

Now, you wouldn't normally pack seeds in a survival kit, but we're talking about a 10 year survival situation here. No need for the last 9 years to be as rough as the first year. Start a garden! And don't get any fancy hybrids. They will not breed true. You need heirlooms. They will provide you with fresh seeds, equal to the parent plants, each year.

http://www.heirloomseeds.com
Posted by: LED

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/30/07 07:15 PM

Just found this thread. Call me crazy but one of the first things that comes to mind when discussing 1+ years in the wild is how you'd handle dental/medical issues. Better have a hell of a lot of floss or else you're in for some real problems. Seriously though, just focusing on the dental issue could be a humbling affair.
Posted by: NIM

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/30/07 09:25 PM

LED: You're right. There is a toothbrush that will last for years, but once it is done I'll be chewing on soft sticks (and removing splinters smile The dental floss doesn't shred so it can be reused (after boiling) there is enough in the pack to last 3 years even without reuse. If I did run out I have already discovered that sinew makes a darn good substitute. I have a few caches with extra brushes and ..CRAP I didn't put floss in them. GRRRRR Oversite detected! I'll have to add that to the next ones. No way I'm digging them up! Tooth surgery will be limited to wiggling it back and forth until it can be removed.

CityBoyGoneCountry: I do have some canned non-hybrid seeds that will grow in this area. This issue I forsee is that the soil and growing season isn't great, crops are possible to hide, but if we're nomadic anyway for protection we will not be able to rely on the crops. I'll consider that one. A stock of seeds might provide options, especially if they don't need human help to continue. (Cringes imagining a new invasive species....at least it would be edible for humans)

Good ideas guys!

-NIM
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/30/07 09:34 PM

I can't even comprehend living 10 years out of the back of a backpack. Now that being said if you have 10,000 bucks worth of training then it's possible you know how to make a palatial log estate with a small axe and given time you'll and your friends will have a full plantation running in no time.

Our ancestors did it...it can still technically be done. Very few people have the same know how that existed then...or the same motivation.
Posted by: NIM

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 11/30/07 10:15 PM

True words! Not only is the knowledge almost gone but the land is stressed in ways it never was.

Gone are the flocks of birds so dense they would dim the sun enough to turn day into night. Gone are the great "chili givers" of the plains (do they need another name?). No longer will a school of fish impede the forward momentum of a ship...now I wonder... why aren't the blasted mosquitoes suffering the same fate?

-NIM



Posted by: Eugene

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/01/07 02:05 AM

I really don't see it possible.
Our ancestors didn't live in the woods alone. The early settlers were gathered around forts and farmed and shared and bartered their crops. The average lifespan then was somewhere around 30 to 40 years so cut your life span in half or figure every year puts the stress and wear of two on your body. They didn't have things like tooth brushes, they lost their teeth early on and even when they had dentists it was pretty much to extract the cavitied or infected tooth. Very few lived alone in the lifestyle your talking about, thats why they became legends. One out of 100 would attempt to live like that then one out of 100 that tried actually lived to become Daniel Boone or Davey Crockett, again rare enough that they did become legends. As others said you also had thousands of acres to hunt and gather on, you don't have these quantities of resources any more.
If you step back in history again to the likes of the Native American Indians, they survived be creating tribes, not a single people. You have to because sooner or later your going to get sick in some way and someone else has to be there to hunt for your food and take care of you so you can return the favor to them when they are sick. Even then without the benefits of modern medicine many died due to what might be a minor illness today so the statistics are against you again.
All through history the same pattern exists, we gathered together to survive because we could not survive alone. Might be a city, town, fort, castle, etc but we made some distinction from being a loaner.
I have recent history to go by, my fathers was the first generation in my family to have a job with a paycheck. My grandfather was a full time farmer who never earned a paycheck. He did some work for money from time to time, sold crops, livestock, logs, etc. But for the most part he was self sufficient. His farm was 200 acres total with cows, chickens, pigs, etc. He died when I was 19 so I got to see a little of life back then, I still remember being very young and going out with my grandmother to get eggs from the chicken coop or the meat hanging in the smokehouse. The house that my grandfather was born in is still there, the house that his mother was born in was turned into a barn and later torn down by my uncle who inherited that section after my grandfather died. There was a garage, tractor garage, smokehouse, chicken coop, pig barn, woodshed, the cave dug in the hill for long term food storage, two more buildings, and two barns in the valley, then three barns and a sheep stable up on the mountain. That farm supported him and his wife and their seven kids and his mother (I'm not sure when his father died, I have no memories of him so it mush have been before I was born or when I was really young). So it takes a lot of resources to be self sufficient, probably a bit more than what can fit in a pack.

Someday I will inherit half of about 100 acres, I have one brother who is entitled to the other half even though he has no interest in it. My parents bought land from my grandfather so thats why we have more than 1/7th of it. Its not the best land in the world, rocky and hilly and very little water. There are currently two ~12 acre hay fields and maybe 30 in pasture on their part then woods down into the valley and part way up the other side. My father is going to retire soon, too many years of driving across the state line for work as there are no real jobs there so I'm living far away and wondering what to do when my parents are gone. My thought is to pack the kids for a week around spring break and we plant a nice garden then go back in late fall to harvest and make some weekend trips in between. I really can't move there as there are no jobs and a terrible school system so I don't know how I'm going to maintain the fence or fields and such.
Posted by: CityBoyGoneCountry

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/01/07 04:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Hacksaw
if you have 10,000 bucks worth of training then it's possible you know how to make a palatial log estate with a small axe


That's what Dick Proenneke did in Alaska. You can buy the dvd at http://www.dickproenneke.com and you can see a 9 minute clip at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsfB6oJ55wM

I saw the whole thing on PBS a few years ago. The man has my respect. I can never come close to being that kind of craftsman.
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/01/07 06:05 AM

Our ancestors are the ones who did it successfully. The ones that didn't aren't anyone's ancestors.

Survival is about using efficient methods and equipment to enact a positive outcome of a situation. If you die, that isn't very positive. :P
Posted by: Eugene

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/01/07 01:12 PM

Originally Posted By: ironraven
Our ancestors are the ones who did it successfully.


They didn't live successfully from a backpack. The Native American Indians joined together in tribes, the early settlers built forts and later towns. Even in medieval times people gathered around a castle and its king. There were very very few who lived alone few enough that they became legends.
Posted by: CityBoyGoneCountry

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/01/07 01:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Eugene
They didn't live successfully from a backpack. The Native American Indians joined together in tribes, the early settlers built forts and later towns. Even in medieval times people gathered around a castle and its king. There were very very few who lived alone few enough that they became legends.


There were Japanese soldiers from WWII who lived for many years after the war alone in the jungle. Hiroo Onoda lasted for 29 years.

I think the hardest thing for most people to deal with would be loneliness. But for someone like me, that wouldn't be hard at all. I'm already used to it.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/01/07 04:03 PM

When I was in my early twenties, I lived in with no modern convieniences in an old leaky pup tent beside a river from mid April to early December. The river and surrounding land provided most of the basic food I needed to survive which was all cooked over an open fire with only a small pot and 8" cast iron fry pan.

When I needed stuff I could not make or forage for, I would take a job in the local area for a day or so and barter my labor for what I needed. Although I always wanted to live with no working or assistance of any kind, I soon found out that it is not possible to live entirely on your own in 100% isolation situation and our ancestors long before us also depended on the help and charity of others

Living this kind of life for roughly 9 months was the most fulfilling, yet most difficult thing I ever did. It was working from sun up to sun down 7 days per week regardless of how I felt or the what the weather was (below freezing to low 90's) just to get by.

Could I do it again for a year if the situation warranted..yes. For multiple years, the simple answer is no, not without plenty of help...and 99.9% of people should not be under any delusion they can regardless of how much preps they have saved or how much knowledge they have.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/01/07 04:12 PM

Originally Posted By: CityBoyGoneCountry
Originally Posted By: Hacksaw
if you have 10,000 bucks worth of training then it's possible you know how to make a palatial log estate with a small axe


That's what Dick Proenneke did in Alaska. You can buy the dvd at http://www.dickproenneke.com and you can see a 9 minute clip at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsfB6oJ55wM

I saw the whole thing on PBS a few years ago. The man has my respect. I can never come close to being that kind of craftsman.


Dick Proenneke's Alone in the Wilderness is on Detroit Public television right now..at least where I live. This show is very well worth watching for any outdoors orientated person.

Wikipedia has a good page about him...although I dislike the labeling of Dick as a "survivalist".
Posted by: Susan

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/01/07 07:00 PM

There is a very great difference between being brought up with survival knowledge, and being dumped into the situation, even with a reasonable amount of equipment.

Up to about WWII, it was second-nature for most people to "make do". And often it was making do with very little. It was all they knew. Even many young kids of six or seven knew what to do if they got caught outdoors overnight or lost for a few days.

But now? We are so used to so much comparative luxury, I don't know that many people could do it, day after day. And the way kids are brought up now, thinking for themselves hasn't been on the curriculum (from any source, not just schools) for a long time.

If we were hit by another Depression that wasn't even worse than the last one, it would be incredibly bad. And some people think we might be headed for one that would make the last one look like a walk in the park.

Sue
Posted by: Eugene

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/02/07 03:39 AM

Originally Posted By: CityBoyGoneCountry

There were Japanese soldiers from WWII who lived for many years after the war alone in the jungle. Hiroo Onoda lasted for 29 years.


How many soldiers didn't make though, thats what I'm trying to get at, for every one that lives to tell his story there are 100 that don't.
Posted by: Eugene

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/02/07 03:46 AM

I think we have different knowledge than we did back then. Back then every man knew how to shoot a gun, sharper a knife, identify trees, etc. Now we know who won what game or what stock has been doing well. People used to be more rural and grew up spending some time outdoors. I've made it a priority now to get my kids out into the parks because they don't have the opportunity to grow up outdoors like I did. Our vacations are state and national parks and forests and the rest of the world thinks were strange or boring because once you have seen one park you have seen them all while I look at them going on vacation only to find the nearest mall or walmart because to me once you have seen one of those you. have seen them all.
Posted by: NIM

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/02/07 05:56 PM

Hi Sue,

I agree with your thoughts on another Depression. I don't know how even my friends will cope. I suspect that as long as the power is flowing they can play video games and watch movie rentals/surf the net.
If the power goes out I can't imagine how most people will cope.

I'm not sure if this should go into another thread or if this will be a quick tangent, but...

Sue, what are your thoughts on the transportation of food/goods in a greater depression than version 1 (the one that happened). My thoughts are that most everything will work as before, but that the prices will be prohibitive. Certain items (like a 10,000 mile kiwi) will be a thing of the past (along with the awesome selection). My concern is that people today are so disconnected from farming/nature etc. that they would be in danger of starvation.

-NIM
Posted by: Dan_McI

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/14/07 08:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Eugene
I think we have different knowledge than we did back then. Back then every man knew how to shoot a gun, sharper a knife, identify trees, etc. Now we know who won what game or what stock has been doing well.


I agree with this, for the most part. Many rely on others to do the tasks the almost everyone used to do for themselves. One of the things I try to be in order to be more prepared for things I may encoutner is to improve or learn skills. Limited success with knitting so far. Better in other areas.

As far as biological attacks, the Soviets also used them during WWII. They used rats to infect German forces with tularemia, which helped them win at Stalingrad. The tularemia also came back to Soviet forces. See: http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/363/14923_tularemia.html

As far as the general topic, I cannot see living out of a pack for ten years. I doubt a pack would survive intact for five years of constant use. I could see having a pack as something with which one might start out using, and then using skills, knowledge, tools, etc. to build more.
Posted by: vinjay

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/14/07 10:29 PM

Hi new here cant help wondering, though I do not know how far back tooth brushes and floss go, but there is a way to help with keeping your teeth is that when you have a minor problem you get at it quickly and I have some experience here, is that you use salt in high concentration to gargle and rinse as often as possable that will prevent the beginning of painful swollen gums from becomming a big problem. As for chewing on sticks that is probably where tooth picks started from. Oh and swisshing high quality alcohol helps too.Like good scotch?
Posted by: Zardoz

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/15/07 01:35 PM

Hi NIM, thanks for sharing the kit! Despite the naysayers I think you have a great plan that would most likely lead to an eventual colony in the remote areas as more well prepared folks arrive to areas that the unprepared will never be able to reach.

I live in a moderate sized, poor city with one of the highest violent crime rates in the US. Having been employed as a LEO through a few large scale emergencies and a major riot I do not wish to imagine the environment that people will encounter if Western civilization shudders for even a brief period. An atomic war or other semipermanent event worsens that scenario exponentially.

Your plan to go to very remote areas and make it a go is very noble and I would rather face the wild threats than the 'civilized' ones any day, even if it is only our family attempting it.

It seems like transition to the remote areas can be a healthful and pleasant experience now if you can do it. For the past several years I've been seeking employment on the fringes of remote areas, I did take a new 'corporate' type government job that is better suited to large universities, nuke/chemical plants or diamond mines since I'm now too old to transfer to a Park Ranger job (plus the pay cut would be a little drastic right now). It will only be a matter of time before we will be moving.

Thanks again and keep up the good work!
Posted by: Eugene

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/15/07 11:04 PM

I see the reliance on others a lot. I see guys around me having garages full of tools, much more than I have, yet they pay someone else to do every little thing. Time for an oil change, call and schedule an appointment with the dealer, request time off work so you can drop the car off, have the wife take time off work to pick him up and take him to work. Then call every couple hours to see if its done, have the wife leave work early to pick him and go to the dealer, its pretty much an all day event. Me, I take 10 minutes and change the oil, letting it drain while I rotate my tires and wash my windows.
Same with anything else, faucet drips, spend a day call three plumbers for quotes and scheduling a day off work for them to come do the work. I just swing by a hardware store on the way home from work and buy a new faucet and replace it before dinner.
People say their time is too valuable to do things themselves but it always seems to take longer to have someone do the work that it does to do it yourself.

I really can't see anyone living out of a pack for years either. You really need to be raised that way, to have those youth years being taught by someone who does live that way and gain experience with that person there watching over you. Even then your still not very likely to survive all that long and if you are on of the few that can then you become a legend like the few who have in the past.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/16/07 03:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Eugene


I really can't see anyone living out of a pack for years either. You really need to be raised that way, to have those youth years being taught by someone who does live that way and gain experience with that person there watching over you. Even then your still not very likely to survive all that long and if you are on of the few that can then you become a legend like the few who have in the past.


Good points and people also have to remember that even the old mountain men, explorers and early settlers returned to civilization on a regular basis to restock and in many cases stay for the winter as it was much easier to live with the modern conveniences of the time then it was to survive out in the wild on their own.
Posted by: Susan

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/17/07 05:37 AM

"Sue, what are your thoughts on the transportation of food/goods in a greater depression than version 1 (the one that happened). My thoughts are that most everything will work as before, but that the prices will be prohibitive."

I don't visualize such a pretty picture. I would think it would happen as a domino effect.

Right now, we've got kind of a credit problem, home prices are dropping, more and more jobs are being outsourced to other countries, and our government is spending money we don't have like a bunch of drunken sailors on shore leave.

What happens if a large number of people default on their credit bills? What if people buying on credit is what is keeping many/most of our industries alive?

What will happen to the banking business? What happens if people start quietly withdrawing what little savings they have and hoarding cash? Part of the blame for the Great Depression was laid on the Federal Reserve, due to issuing a great amount of paper money, which led to the rise of the stock market, and when that bubble broke, the Great Depression followed. Do you think the way the Federal Reserve operates has improved, or is it a liability?

If existing homes can't sell for even for what is owed on them, will the construction industry start to fail? If the construction industry goes under, what happens to all the businesses that sell to them?

Right now, the cost of fuel is raising the prices of all goods. Is everyone's paycheck increasing to cover the difference? Unless a lot of people use even more credit (that they can't pay off), they are getting less product for every dollar they spend, and they only have a limited number of dollars. What are they giving up? Is what they're not buying causing manufacturing business owners to lose sleep?

When manufacturers realize that their sales have dropped, they're going to lay off people and try to stay alive by producing only their best sellers. They could try raising prices, but if peoples' buying power is dropping, what do you think will happen?

Most American farmers bought into the big farm/single crop/high debt pipe dream, and they walk a narrow line between profit and loss. What happens if crop prices fall to the point they can't make any profit at all? Just pick one, like corn or soybeans. A lot of America's farm crops are sold overseas. If they try to raise the price there to offset their losses here, what do you think will happen?

Our money has no value, it is based solely on faith in our economy. What happens if a large part of America looses faith? (That's what the Stock Market Crash of 1929 was, and it got worse by 1933.)

If businesses can't make enough money to stay in business, they go under. If enough businesses fail, the resulting unemployment gets a trifle severe. If more business fail than are operating, how does the State pay unemployment? And when your six months of unemployment ends (if you got it), and there is still no jobs in sight, what do you do then?

I think NOTHING would work as before. If we even reached the point where only bare necessities were being produced, our unemployment would probably be very high. (In the Great Depression, unemployment was about 25%, but most women didn't work, so might we be looking at a 50% rate or higher?)

Last month (November, 2007) the total number of unemployed people in the U.S. was 7.2 million (4.7%), out of a total of 154 million. If 50% is a reasonable figure, we're looking at maybe 75 million destitute people.

But the price of gas might go down.

Sue
Posted by: Loganenator

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/19/07 12:48 AM

Good points Sue!

Your post reminds me of a presentation I watched recently: Dr. Albert A. Bartlett's

Arithmetic, Population and Energy
(or the you tube title: The most important video you will ever see!)

As a caveat: this is NOT a crazy survivalist TEOTWAKI video. The clairvoyance and perspective this presentation provides is critical to decisions that must be made for the eventual apex of "growth" in all forms. If you were on the fence about preparation before...you will not be after this video. This simple presentation with math and historic examples demonstrates how fragile our systems are and how much we really do need to prepare for emergency.

Be sure to watch all the parts:

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Part 7
Part 8
Posted by: thseng

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/19/07 02:56 PM

Please don't take this personally, Nemo, but you forgot to include:
"Part 9, The Final Solution: Forced Abortion, Mandantory Sterilization & Elimination of the Useless Eaters"

This is just another rehash of two hundred year old Malthusian nonsense.

To paraphrase: "I've noticed that all the people who are in favor of population control happen to be born already."

I'd like to ask him if he considers himself more deserving of life than one of my 5 children, and if so, which one? If he's not more important, and he really believes what he's saying, why hasn't he killed himself? Oh, I forgot, we NEED him to preach to true gospel! Population controllers always exempt themselves.

He reveals how small his own personal world is when he defers to a science fiction writer as THE authority on "human dignity". I suggest he try to become a bit more well rounded and expand his world (its never too late in life) starting with something like Humanae Vitae

Back to whence you came you sad little old man! Back! Back to the Carter administration, BACK!
Posted by: handyman

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/19/07 11:03 PM

Did'nt read all the replys but here is my $ .02 .
A guy named Dick Prenoky [ not sure about last name spelling ] built a log cabin and lived for thirty years in the Alaskan wilderness . I saw the documentry he filmed himself on public tv . If it comes on again be sure to watch it .
He built the cabin and made just about everything he needed with some basic hand tools . He survived by fishing hunting and had a small garden .
I didn't read through the entire list of supplys you had but , just off the top of my head , there are some things I would definately include if I planned on surviving in the north woods for a long time .
1. A bow and arrow is a good idea but I would bring a rifle or two . Probably a 22 and a larger caliber rifle - 30-06 or 30-30 or a shotgun
2. Lots of clothes because clothes would be very hard to make
3. As many hand tools that I could carry . Axe , saw , hammer , large chissels , shovel . etc.
Posted by: Loganenator

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/20/07 01:39 AM

Hi Tom/thseng,

No worries, I didn't take it personally...population is a very sensitive issue and not particularly relevant to this forum any way. My point may have been lost in the Malthusian perspective.

So to keep my point on survival preparedness topic...What I meant to discuss is how this video reminded me of how we will all go through good times and hard times and its best to plan for the "potential" hard times currently during the "good" times. (e.g. growth vs recession, and seasonally early summer vs. late fall)

Regardless of peak oil, water and food shortage relevance or whatever the context of an emergency, we will all face our own hard times in different ways...terrible weather, industrial accidents, even just losing our job/house and not finding permanent work/shelter for a while. Survival comes in many forms...and when it comes to survival of the species I agree with you that it does not belong on this forum. The desire for independence and self-reliance is what brings most of us here and so to advocate against those values with governmental control was not my intent.

Peace brother smile

Cheers,
Nemo.
Posted by: Eugene

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/20/07 01:42 AM

A documentary on someone shows what I'm trying to illustrate, that the amount people are successful at living off the land like that is little enough that it becomes news/story/documentary/movie/legend worthy. One in a thousand might attempt it and then one in one thousand will be successful.
If your really planning on they type of bug out, have a cabin already built and stocked.
Posted by: Crowe

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/20/07 01:57 AM

Originally Posted By: handyman
Did'nt read all the replys but here is my $ .02 .
A guy named Dick Prenoky [ not sure about last name spelling ] built a log cabin and lived for thirty years in the Alaskan wilderness . I saw the documentry he filmed himself on public tv . If it comes on again be sure to watch it .
He built the cabin and made just about everything he needed with some basic hand tools . He survived by fishing hunting and had a small garden .
I didn't read through the entire list of supplys you had but , just off the top of my head , there are some things I would definately include if I planned on surviving in the north woods for a long time .
1. A bow and arrow is a good idea but I would bring a rifle or two . Probably a 22 and a larger caliber rifle - 30-06 or 30-30 or a shotgun
2. Lots of clothes because clothes would be very hard to make
3. As many hand tools that I could carry . Axe , saw , hammer , large chissels , shovel . etc.


Dick Proenneke, Alone in the Wilderness, a really cool DVD. http://www.dickproenneke.com/

Dick humped in the steel tool heads for all his tools and made the handles on site to save weight and bulk.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/20/07 11:58 AM

Dick also had "air support", his friends flew in a lot of supplies over the years.

The DVD is well worth the money and Dick's master craftsmanship never fails to wow me every time I watch it.
Posted by: MoBOB

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/20/07 04:51 PM

This Alaska guy had a big advanatage when it came time for gardening...the soil up there is crazy for growing. You could grow a cabin by planting a Lincoln log (maybe). When I was stationed up there I was absolutely astounded at the quality of the produce from the Mat-Su Valley. The vegetables were the best I have ever had, by far. Sorry California and New Jersey, you are very distant second and third in this category IMHO.

Just a thought..
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/20/07 05:04 PM

His book, One Man's Wilderness, is even better than the video...
Posted by: NIM

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/20/07 06:02 PM

Hi BigDaddyTX,

Yes, I can make a bow from scratch including arrows. I'm training to use a sling over a slingshot(due to the tubing wearing out) although a throwing stick is pretty close.

I can make traps from 'wild' parts and the gill net will assist with trap fishing. I'm also able to stalk up and pounce on wild plants.

I don't know if that is enough though. How do you know if your skills are good enough unless you try them for a year? It would be a crap-shoot I suspect. I'm against guns as they are heavy and the ammo runs out. I'm not going to need heavy fire power I'd rather take a .22 cal pellet gun then a bullet thrower. I've been able to make darts for it and the leather pump could be replaced in the field.

-NIM
Posted by: NIM

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/20/07 06:06 PM

Darn right. I agree too. I'd prefer civilization over being in the wild for access to food, hot showers, etc.

I'm sure most that returned to civilization would have been able to suffer through winter if civilization was plague infested.

I'm just learning how to use this forum and I'm finding it hard to find the threads I haven't replied to (and should). Any tips?
For those of you who are offering suggestions and input -thank you!

All thoughts are welcome and almost all are being reviewed and considered.

-NIM
Posted by: Loganenator

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/20/07 08:08 PM

I use google reader to keep up on blogs and it works well for this forum as well. It organizes all new posts you haven't checked under each topic forum. However tracking who replies to your comment directly I don't think this site can do it...yet. It can track your own posts but not replies I believe.

Perhaps put it in as a suggestion to one of the moderators to see if its feasible. smile

Cheers,

Posted by: vinjay

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/27/07 08:28 PM


Hi I am still new to this so bear with me please.
One of the things that might happen in worst case is that when the dollar loses most of its value you need to have a form of money that will increase in value such as good old silver coin of the realm. I think having as part of a survival kit would be some of the (1) dollar silver eagles, In the future there will be a shortage of silver sinse most new electronic products use silver for making contacts. the price of silver could rise to over $50 an ounce. They cost some were in the 7 to 10 dollar range.

All The Best.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Bugout back for longterm use - 12/28/07 05:00 AM

Originally Posted By: TheSock

And zombies don't exist.


YES THEY DO!!! I just saw I AM BOB MARLEY, and Will Smith only does strictly factual acting. Duh! I think the first zombies were from Haiti. I..uh..wha..uba? LOLOLOLOL!