Well, I THOUGHT I was prepared...

Had an interesting situation this weekend, "interesting" being a euphemism for annoying but educational.

The sewer line from the house to the public sewer appears to have partially collapsed. Attempts to snake it out have failed. It is draining, but slowly. Repair/replacement is about a week out. This has required us to decide to either move in with family or into a hotel, or attempt to cope with very limited wastewater disposal capacity. Because of a terminal illness in the family, resources and tempers are strained and that appears to be an option of last resort. The hotel possibility is there, but money, as they say, is definitely an object. So, we are attempting to tough it out for a while at least.

I thought we were pretty well prepared as a family for most emergencies. But this one has me rethinking the age-old problem of how to dispose of waste on a fairly long-term basis without creating a health hazard or a public nuisance. Some parts of it are easy, some are a challenge. I'd very much like to know what other people have done in the way of planning and preparation for this part of an emergency.

If I'm going back over old ground from a previous thread, forgive me and direct me and think no more about it.

Frank2135

Reminds me of the the whole bomb-shelter idea-I don't care how much food and water you have,flashlights,batteries etc. Eventually You,your wife,2.5 children,dog and cat will need to go to the bathroom and a small bunker will eventually be ripe with smells,disease and bad tempers.Watch out when the dog starts eyeing the youngest as a food source too.
On the other side-if you have a yard and can get outside I saw in Cabela's -and probably sold elsewhere this container you place in the ground and add some enzyme to the waste and it decomposes it naturally-called a doggie dooley waste disposal system.I would imagine that it would be effective for human waste issues as well and more discreet than having a portable bathroom in the yard or using bags and no real means of getting rid of the waste.

Hi Frank,

Sounds like you are going through some difficult times, it is frustrating when things are beyond your control.

Do you live in a city or in the country?

I had an older rural property about 10 years ago that had frequent water supply and septic system problems. The solution was simple for us, use the existing outhouse that was onsite until the problem was fixed. I grew-up around bush camps so it did not bother me much but my wife hated it, that house had so many problems it is a wonder we did not get divorced over it.

When we sold the house the buyer did not want the old outhouse (it must be 50 years old but very solid) so I took it to my hunt camp where we still use it.

I do not know if your Municipality would let you install an outhouse, but a rental Pot-a-potty may be a viable option for the short term.

Your homeowners insurance may pay for the rental fee and repair if the sewer backed-up into your house, check your policy?

Hope things turn around for you,

Mike

Yeah, I faced this once while renovating my only bathroom. I accidently broke the back of the toilet and found myself without facilities for a while - until I could repair rotted flooring and get a plumber in to install a new flange.

The good news is that you've still (hopefully) got clean running water.

I got to know the local McDonalds restroom all too well. The only in-home alternatives I can think of is to use kitchen garbage bags (lots of them) and sit on a 5 gallon bucket. Some places sell seats that fit on top of them - I've thought about getting one for "emergencies". Do you have any close friends who would lone you an RV with an on-board toilet?

For body cleaning, my advice is to get used to sponge baths - they can get you pretty clean - better than nothing. The worst of that for me was hair washing. We ended up using warm water to wash hair and then rinsed using the COLD water from the garden hose outside. Hint: If I were building a hose - or at least replumbing it - I'd put valves in that would allow me to run a mix of warm & cold water out through the hose. That way I could fashion an outdoor shower of some kind - plus it would provide warm water for washing dogs.

For dishwashing, go camping in your home: Use the three bucket method that Scouts use - 1. Wash in warm soapy water, 2. Rinse in warm water, 3. Sanitize in luke warm bleach water (using min. 1.5 teaspoons bleach/gallon water), 4. Air dry. When done with the water, dump it somewhere that is least impacting to plants/animals. Another alternative is to use you kitchen sink as normal but remove the trap and put a 5 gallon bucket under the sink. Don't forget to empty it promply!

The idea about removing the traps and putting 5-gallon buckets under the sinks is well worth considering - thanks very much!

The showers under the garden hose have begun, and yes, the water is COLD.

Frank2135

Mike,

We are located in a small city and outhouses are definitely not an option. A Porta-Potti might be, but at that point we would re-examine the cost of a motel room.

Frank2135

Buckets, bags and holes in the ground.

The hi tech approach!
Just kidding - I get the point. If we lose our access to modern technology, we're back where our ancestors were. You either sit in it or carry it off and bury it somewhere.

Frank2135

I'm about 100 yards from the shoreline of Lake Erie, and believe it or not, the Department of Natural Resources, EPA and Department of Health types would be downright peeved if they found out I buried any kind of waste in the ground here.

The prohibition actually extends to animal waste, but it's not enforced. The power of dog lovers or something, I guess.

I shouldn't complain: this part of the Lake is cleaner now than it has been in around 50 years. But when I see the waste oil wash onshore from ships swilling their bilges out in the international shipping lanes in the middle of the Lake, I wonder if some sense of perspective wouldn't be a good thing.

On a site I wish I could recall so I could give them due credit, they described how to make life a little easier. Shut off the water supply to the toilet, drain all the water out of the toilet, raise the seat and line with appropriate bags then lower the seat and "use" like normal. This would feel better than a bucket balancing act.

I would suggest baking soda, cheat kitty litter, sawdust, or even sand to absorb liquids and odor. If the bags you use are thick and bulky you might only use one at a time but if you can layer in several at once, then remove when full (more than 1 use possible?) and place in a bucket kept next to the toilet.

The suggestion about lining the dry toilet with bags and using it as you would a bucket toilet is excellent. Plus, it frees up another bucket.

Call your local sporting goods stores and find out if they have (in stock!) a toilet seat that clips onto a standard 5-gallon bucket (they're about $10). One name is Luggable Loo. If they have the seats, they probably carry some buckets. Use a new one that hasn't gotten brittle sitting in the sun (about $6).

They're stable, they're easy, they can sit in the bathroom, and kids and old people can use them with no problem.

Find a garden supply (etc) or woodworking place that has sawdust. Fresh raw sawdust (directly from trees) is best, but sawdust from non-treated wood will do.

1. Line the bucket with a heavy-duty plastic bag that fits.
2. Clip seat/lid onto bucket.
3. Add about 2" of sawdust to bottom of bucket.
4. Keep another bucket or two of sawdust nearby.
5. Every time someone makes a deposit, add a scoop of sawdust over it.

When full enough, fasten bag securely and put it where you store stuff to take to the dump.

More complete info, see FREE online book The Humanure Book by Joseph Jenkins, including photos and drawings.
http://www.weblife.org/humanure/default.html

Sue

Good info, and an interesting resource, Sue. Thanks.

This link discusses emergency sanitation (putting together an emergency chemical toilet). Not feasible for situation at hand, but for long-term planning: "Composting Toilet World."

OK, let's talk about this a little more seriously.

First of all, we're talking about managing OUTFLOW not inflow. In this case, I'd call a portable toilet place, and get one, ASAP. They are not that expensive. As far as water goes, if you're NOT using the toilets, there's not any reason at all to worry about dumping most of your other water right onto the ground for a while. It's jsut greywater. To be blunt, it's really only fecal matter that's the problem here, that's what's going to carry your disease.

If you don't want to/can't rent a portable toilet, then go shopping at the grocery store and grab a BUNCH of the plastic grocery bags. These fit nicely on a spackle bucket, and yes, you can rig up a toilet seat right over the bucket if you want. Squat, bag it, tie it shut, toss it out. Not fun, not pleasant, it will work.

Because we are in town with neighbors close on either side, I'd like to spare them the view of a porta potti peeping up over the hedges. If this were truly an emergency, rather than a large inconvenience, I would seriously consider it. As I may have to if the fixed-by-Monday estimate turns out to be overly optimistic.

Frank2135

o man. tough break. if i were you, i would be calling in all the debts owed to me by friends right about now. i can see spending a night or two in a lean-to, or building a fire-bow from scratch, ya know...for practice, but call me a prude, unless it is a SHTF ( hah! ) scenario, i just cant see myself saving my poo, much less that of a signifcant other, when ive got neighbors, friends, public bathrooms, and of course a hotel.


i DO like the sawdust idea though...but only in dire circumstances. heck, after it dries out, it might make a heck of a fuel source. 8D

I second the baking soda suggestion. Great for keeping flys and stink out of the trash. Recently I found out it works great for keeping mosquitoes out of stagnant water.

Just a thought ...
A friend of mine had a sewer line blockage on his city lot. Turned out to be roots from a tree invading the pipe. The plumber used a concentrated sodium hydroxide solution to 'burn' the roots out. Later I saw the same stuff for sale at Home Depot (it was labelled for that exact purpose).

Regarding outhouses/potty boxes:
I can vouch for sawdust from personal experience. I've been using dry sawdust from a truss manufacturer as kitty litter and down my occasional-use outhouse for two years. I used to use dry, cold wood ash; but nothing beats sawdust for moisture and odour absorption. It works astonishingly well ... better than commercial kitty litter ... though the cat tracks it a few feet ... it helps if I mix in a little dry black dirt. I'm going to try it in a camper, in a five-gallon pail, for 'liquids only' one of these days, as a test. The result is compost; I'll just put it on my trees (I live in the country).

(Aside: I plan to add some vertical ventilation to the outhouse as well - moving it toward a homemade composting toilet, the essence of which is removal/absorption of liquids and constant positive ventilation.)

Hope this trying situation resolves itself okay.

I would not advise using kitty litter that is made from clay. If you don't have several indoor cats and three litter boxes like I do, you may not realize how HEAVY it gets when wet. Hey, it's heavy enough when the stuff is dry!

And yes, I have tried the bucket/sawdust(etc) method, to make sure I had something viable to fall back on in case of emergency. I live in an earthquake/volcano/flood area, and storing clean water to flush a toilet seems close to the ultimate stupidity to me.

I've tried raw sawdust, kiln-dried non-treated sawdust, paper-based kitty litter, Eagle Mountain Bedding (from large animal feed store -- it's just pressed sawdust that resembles broken pellet stove pellets), and a 5-gallon bucket of rolled oats with bugs in it from a neighbor.

All did very well, and there was absolutely NO ODOR. None whatsoever.

Dried shredded leaves and finished or half-finished compost is supposed to do well also, but I haven't tried those.

I guess many people would sneer at this method of disposal, but when I was watching mile upon mile of vehicles trying to escape Katrina, I remember thinking that most of those people would probably have found them really useful.

Sue

1. We have set up a sawdust toilet arrangement for emergencies, using extra heavy plastic bags in the (drained) toilet bowl and a bucket of sawdust and a box of baking soda at hand, per suggestions in this thread.

2. Some neighbors came to the rescue, kindly giving us the key to their basement where they have a shower and toilet.

The information from this thread so far has been immediately helpful, but it has also provoked some more serious planning for a "what if" scenario that involves no municipal waste disposal for several weeks. I had thought about it, of course, but until you experience it...

The current situation also reinforces my belief that no one is an island, and that mutual aid is one of the greatest assets one can have in a long-term emergency situation.

Thanks, everyone!

Frank2135

And if you happen to have a fireplace, toss some fireash into each bag, for some reason it reduced odor...

"...If I were building a hose - or at least replumbing it - I'd put valves in that would allow me to run a mix of warm & cold water out through the hose. That way I could fashion an outdoor shower of some kind - plus it would provide warm water for washing dogs..."

That is why I always have a "utility" sink in the garage. With the right faucet set you can hook a regular garden hose on, and run hot/warm/cold water wherever you want...

"...a terminal illness in the family..."

First off, let me say that I feel for you, having been thru that five times in the past.

I see that your neighbors have kicked in, so I will not offer that suggestion.

Just a thought, for your particular case, and not necessarily one for a major earthquake/whatever: do you happen to have a clean out in your sewer line, between the collapse area and the main? If so, you could conceivably use that to dump your waste into the sewer system, instead of using it to help the lawn grow...

The best way to combat the cold hose water is to keep a couple of cheap extra hoses on hand. Even the cheap 50' vinyl hoses are good enough and with summer starting to wind down, they can be bought for about $5.00 per hose.

On warm days, connect all the hoses together and ensure that you have a garden hose nozzle or garden wand attached and turned off. Turn the water tap on then lay the hoses streched out on the ground (concrete or asphalt is best) and wait 1/2 an hour or so. The warmth of the sun and ground will heat the water in the hose.

Keep the water tap on very low (just enough to create some pressure). As long as you are not heavy fingered on the hose nozzle, there will now be enough warm water to have a decent shower without getting jolted with cold water.

This is also a good way to have warm water for dishwashing etc.

SD.

Ha! There's one of those "Why didn't I think of that?" ideas.

Wood ash combines with water to create lye. And as I learned this summer staying in a campsite with 30 other people, they use lye to kill the stench in pit toilets. Adding wood ash is a great idea.

Ugh, my condolences on the sewer system, when something like that happens you quickly learn far more then you ever wanted to about how your sewer works. A couple of years ago, our septic system conked out. That was a fascinating week spent with my dad digging up pipes that had collapsed and replacing them. Then getting sprayed down with the garden hose since the showers couldn't be used until we finished the work.

That makes sense. I was thinking it might have something to do with the carbon content of the ashes, since carbon is also an odor neutralizer. But I think you've got it.

I learned that trick at a Boy Scout camp equipped with a single one holer...

Hey, Frank… if it’s any consolation, it could have been worse. The sewer pipe could have exploded. Hell, that makes you realize that the steam pipe in New York City could have been worse, too.

Yes. An exploding sewer pipe would be worse than a partially-collapsed one. The experience of being deluged in 100 gallons of sewage is one I'll gladly leave to the guys in Boston.

"All's well as ends well," as Grandpa used to say. The backhoe is busy tearing up the yard for the new line even as I write this. The city agreed to waive most of the $1500 tap-in fee they were going to charge when they discovered we had two bathrooms instead of the one that was in the house when it was first connected in the 1940s. The contractor promises we will be good to go (literally) by end of day tomorrow.

Thanks, very sincerely, for all the advice and the expressions of sympathy and concern from the Forum members who posted.

Frank2135

"...The city agreed to waive most of the $1500 tap-in fee..."

Wow, you are one lucky dude!!! Glad things will be flowing for you soon...

Interesting story. "Interesting," again, is being used in place of something a little stronger. What happened was the city sewer department wanted to treat it as a "new" tap-in because the usage was "increasing" according to their records, because of the "new" second bathroom. The contractor pointed out that we were not changing the size of the line or making any changes inside the house at all. I called the former owners and with their help was able to call the building department and find the records of the building permit issued for the second bathroom from the late 1970s. The contractor used that to argue that the sewer department's records were inaccurate, and they "settled" for $500.

I am NOT complaining, believe me.

Lessons learned all around.

I see that you have it under control. If you have a problem with roots, you can put in about a cup of salt a week and it should kill roots after short time.