Bridge Collapse Observations

Looking over the news footage, I have noticed several things:

1) All of the bridge beams look great, no signs of rust, evenly applied protective coatings.

2) This Collapse (domino) Pattern reminds me of either an Earthquake Effect (per the USGS website, no current activity) or a militarily applied solution to a crucial bridge target.

a) Notice that the ramp on one side of the river is still standing while the river span and the entire ramp on the opposite river bank has all collapsed.

b) This collapse has negated the use of a railroad track, the Upper Mississippi River above (6 miles of navigable waterway???)the collapse. It has restricted the use of (created a chokepoint) of an Interstate Highway (I-35). It has negated the use of a USA COE Lock, as well.

c) Could this have been a better soft target for domestic or imported terrorist???? It would provide a lot of bang for the buck!!!!

3) I find it interesting that a train was passing underneath the bridge at, what appears to me, to be the point of initial piling failure/collapse.

a) Most of that long train had already passed under the bridge and there were 6-7 cars left to pass when the bridge collapsed on top of it.

b) I am wondering about the associated vibrations of a long train moving at slow speeds.

4) My initial conclusion is that the train passing underneath what appears, to me, the collapse point, has to have a connection to the collapse of the bridge, based on what I observed via CNN's coverage.

5) No, I am NOT an ENGINEER!!!!

6) What do the Engineers on ETS think???

I think that, according to the news I just saw, there is still a truck burning and possibly people in the water. Second and first priorities. Figuring out what broke can wait a bit.

Here is a link to a page with good side view pictures for you wildman800

http://www.visi.com/~jweeks/bridges/pages/ms16.html

I can't see any of the photos, just the red X in a box.

Sue

Try again. It's up.

I can only say what I can based on the limited knowledge I glean from news reports, but if this wasn't deliberate (and right now I don't have an opinion one way or another), it points to some kind of really basic & previously unknown engineering or manufacturing flaw that could not be detected by normal inspection techniques.
At this point, it's too soon to give up ALL hope for anyone in a vehicle that went down, but it's not looking good.
Oh, and just to put some perspective on this - there's almost nothing you can do to be "equipped" for something like this, with, perhaps, the exception of having a window punch and a seatbelt cutter nearby, and those are only good if you a)can get to them and b)know how to use them correctly.

Otherwise, this is one of those times where physical fitness can mean literally life or death, because if you're fat and out of shape, you won't have the strength you might need to survive the fall, get out, and swim. Forget helping someone else if you can't help yourself.

I was reminded of this fact the other night as we did a water rescue drill, in which I was in the Delaware River, fully clothed, with shoes on, and wearing a PFD while strapping a "victim" (another firefighter) to a backboard and lifting them to a rescue boat 8 times while we were in 14' deep water. It was exhausting and I had a PFD on. Without a PFD I probably would have been able to swim to shore and that's about it.

Ultimately, it's not gear that saves your ass, it's your well-maintained body & brain that does.

My parents live in the suburbs of Minn/St Paul and tell me that the bridge has been under construction/renovation for a while. Turns out my Brother had decided not to go home that way last night and went a different route instead. It does look like it will be a long term recovery op.

Physical conditioning should be a key element in any survival "kit". I've gone through both the Navy's old Dilbert Dunker and the newer Helo Dunker. Both of those devices are relatively gentle water entries compared to a car falling into the water during a bridge collapse. Add parts of the bridge and moving water, and IMO getting out of the car at all will be a major challenge.

The last time I did the helo dunker I did a lot of swimming underwater conditioning myself. For someone to survive this in cold river water never having thought about the procedures (let alone actually practiced in a trainer) would be a miracle.

Mine said that Internet Explorer can not display the page...

Ok, I am an engineer...

(Disclaimer: I work for a transportation agency in another state and am very familiar with the National Bridge Inspection Standards. I am giving my personal opinions and observations and not stating any official position or anything else but my opinions. Now, back to the discussion.)

So here goes...

1. Looks ARE deceiving, especially from the distances we are seeing things. The only way to really tell is "up close and personal".

2. The main cross channel span was over 460 feet. The "domino pattern" (progressive collapse) as seen in the video is caused by the span failing at one end and pulling the rest of the span down.

a) The approach spans might have collapsed due the the shifting of the main span as it failed (on the side it failed).

b) I am not familiar with the area, except what I have seen on the news, but I would expect that the railroad and the roads on either side of the river would be back in operation by late next week. The river channel will probably take a couple of weeks to clear once the NTSB has finished their high-resolution surveys.

c) No argument here. I was not pleased that it seemed that even before the dust had settled, Homeland Security had declared that the collapse was not terrorist related. The eyewitness reports that I have heard (again from the media) tend to support that conclusion, but I would appreciate a more measured approach.

3) That a train was passing under the bridge at the time is, initially to me, just as coincidental as there only being 50 vehicles on the bridge (4 lanes being closed). Also, the photos I have seen show no damage to the piers (piling), so I would look elsewhere for the cause of the collapse such as the truss ends that were atop the pier.

a) Yes, and apparently the train was pulling empty cars, as no HazMat situation was noted.

b) The vibrations from an unloaded train are much less that those of a loaded train (F=Ma). Additionally, the speed of the train also is a factor, faster trains produce stronger vibrations than slower ones. A long, loaded, fast moving train would cause considerable vibration than a slow unloaded one, and could theoretically, add to fatigue inducing stresses.

4) I wouldn't initially think so - I would tend to see it more as coincidence. Prudence dictates though, that every possibility
be throughly investigated.

5) I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering. I am not a licensed Professional Engineer.

6) You got it.

I note that the news reports are saying that there are over 670 bridges in the US with this "under-deck truss system". Their implication is that someone should demand that they all be closed for inspection because it may be a flawed design. My reaction is that this appears to be the only one of 670 to fail this way, so don't assume that design is the problem. Inspect, by all means (Ohio does so annually), but don't reach conclusions before you have the data.

There is a huge problem right now with people talking out of the sides of their heads (or some other part of their anatomy) who don't have a clue what they're their talking about.

On Fox News, they have a list of "Worst Recent U.S. Bridge Disasters". Of the listed bridge collapses, The Schoharie Creek Bridge in NY and the Hatchie River Bridge in TN both collapsed due to scour (undermining) during historic flooding, the Sunshine Skyway Bridge in FL (not W. Va as noted) and the I-40 bridge in eastern OK, were both struck by shipping traffic, the Silver Bridge in OH collapsed due to a structural failure and I don't know about the Zuber Creek Culvert, but experience with culverts would lead me to believe that it was eroded out during severe flooding.

To have only 2 structural collapses with major loss of live in 40 years, considering the number of bridges and amount of road travel we have here in the U.S., is actually quite remarkably low.

I-35 Bridge Collapse

Some general notes about bridges.

Bridge failure is always due to the supporting structure unable to support the loading forces applied to the structure.

Bridges have always had designed in to them a safety factor. For example a reasonable estimate of the total traffic loading will be estimated i.e 200 tonnes and a safety factor of 50% will mean that the bridge will support 300 tonnes before collapsing.

Cheap and poorly designed bridges have lower safety factors than more expensive better designed bridges.

The maximum load a bridge can withstand is a function of the load in which an individual tie or strut can support.

Bridges made from steel have very well known load failure characteristics. Tie and struts manufactured from steel will deform, buckle or lengthen before failure. The paint work will show cracking and blistering on the structural strut, tie members or jointing sections. Over a short period of time this will show up as localised surface corrosion.

Joints using riveted construction can give rise to crack initiation. This problem is well understood and any design will/should compensate for this problem together with proper bridge maintenance and inspection.

Creep failure in steel bridging structures is generally attributed to poor quality or cheap steel specified in the design or used in the construction phase. Not really an issue in well designed steel bridge structures.

Bridge maintenance is crucial. Inspection to ensure there is no corrosion of joints and structural members is important. Although generally in a steel bridge structure this generally means just keeping the bridge in a good painted condition and ensuring there are no loose or missing rivets and the joints of the ties or strut members. Inspection will be looking for cracked paint and localised corrosion.

The design load of bridges with respect to bridges carrying road traffic are generally designed for symmetric loading. There is a design assumption that a road traffic bridge, which is designed to carry say 200 tonnes with a 50% safety factor will have the loading distributed evenly along its length. The safety factor should/will compensate for uneven or asymmetric load distributions.


Some personal observations relating to the I-35 bridge.

The bridge is of an unusual design. The width of the upper road section is unusually wide (to accommodate 8 lane traffic) in comparison to the distance between the supporting concrete columns at each end of the steel arch. The steel arch is unusually shallow and is constructed from what looks like very small section I steel beams.
The bridge supported steel construction is very cheaply constructed being constructed from mostly I section steel in a conventional lattice steel beam riveted jointed construction.
There appears to be some evidence of some corrosion at the ends of the steel arches where they terminate at the supporting concrete pillars.

Bridge failure I suspect would have been due to the following causes.

The bridge was overall a poor design and cheaply constructed with a small safety factor (hence the 4 out 9 mark) but has stood without failure for 40 years.


Corrosion of the riveted joint section above the concrete pillars indicates possible recent loads in which the proof stress of the strut members of the arch above the concrete supporting pillars may have been exceeded, leading to permanent structural deformation. The inspection and maintenance program should have picked this up though and the bridge should then have been declared unsafe. The safety factor of the bridge would have now become critical and the bridge management should have either closed the bridge or reduced the bridge loading by only having single file road traffic and ensuring no heavy vehicles such as articulated lorries be allowed on to the bridge.

Recent resurfacing work I suspect is the main factor relating to the bridges collapse or more precisely the management of the resurfacing work being carried out. The critical factor in the I-35 bridge collapse is now the loading of the bridge with a poor reduced safety factor. The thickness of the newly laid road surface concrete (wet concrete being heavier than set concrete and if an extra 1 or 2 inches more concrete could easily have amounted to a huge increase in the bridge loading thereby reducing the safety factor even more), the type of concrete (high strength lightweight concrete which is more expensive may have been specified in the original specification but normal concrete may have been used this time around during the recent maintenance road surface construction).

This combined with today’s heavier road vehicles being distributed asymmetrically on one side of the bridge (the width of the road section being much wider than the support would have lead to a high degree of torsional forces being placed on the bridge structure for which I suspect it was not designed, at least not asymmetrically) would have led to the main I beam arch strut above the concrete pillar failing due to the twisting forces or the heads of the rivets popping due to the exceptional sideways forces at the strut end above the concrete pillar on the same side of the above traffic. (Tubular steel sections can resist torsional forces much more readily than I beams)

There really is no mystery to bridge failures. There is just poor design, poor maintenance, poor materials selection, but ultimately just poor management.

i went over that bridge several times a week..the last time
was a week or so ago with my wife to the University...
as we crawled across in the traffic i was struck by all
the cement barriers that were put down to make new lanes.
thats alot of weight--plus heavy duty trucks and cement
mixers parked on the bridge..on the way home we took that
other bridge you may have seen with the people standing
watching, not because i thought it might fall but the hold
up as traffic went down to only a couple lanes..
in the end i think they will find it was all the extra
weight standing on the bridge that sheared the bolts on the
piers..my daughter who is with us in the SW USA thinks that
a large jackhammer that was in use set up some sort of vibes
that amplifed thru the truss work and sheared the bolts..

I read somewhere some time ago that one bridge collapses every day in the U.S. Obviously there are a lot of bridges, and unless it's one near you, a major one, or somebody was killed, you wouldn't hear much about it. You would hardly expect little country bridges to be well maintained, but I guess somebody inspects them??

What made me remember that little factoid was hearing on the radio today that a fear of going over bridges is among the "top ten phobias" in the U.S. I guess it's like flying, lots of people afraid of it but it's pretty safe compared to other methods of travelling. And like bridges, when something does go wrong, usually you're screwed.

In this case I think it's pretty amazing that so few people were trapped in cars in the water. Or perhaps many were vacationers and nobody would really know they're missing yet??

Welcome Newguy!

I am not an engineer (heck, I barely passed high school math long ago), but I do know that many states have increased the maximum weight allowed on big rigs by thousands of pounds, and the traffic volume has increased GREATLY (in many cases well over triple) since many of the bridges in this country were constructed (which was quite a few years ago in the case of most of them). I can only wonder if this might have a bearing on the collapse of any bridge? And we must always keep in mind that ALL highways, bridges, etc, are built by the LOWEST BIDDER...

I think I remember hearing Way Back, -on the News, -about a Bridge Collapsing, (with Traffic on it, I think), -back in or around '69 over the Ohio River, -also in the State of Ohio. Can anyone possibly Fill me in on this? Was this Cincinnati? Or elsewhere in Southern Ohio?

12/15/1967, Silver Bridge in Gallipolis, Ohio. Bridge was crowded with holiday shoppers & rush hour traffic.

Hmmmmm....I lived in Ohio then, and not all that far from Gallipolis, but I don't remember that.

I DO think about collapse everytime I make the KY-OH crossing on the Brent Spence bridge (maybe they call it something else now) in Cincinnati, a double-decker (!) bridge, in heavy use for many decades now.

"On December 15, 1967, the Silver Bridge collapsed while it was choked with rush hour traffic, resulting in the deaths of 46 people. Investigation of the wreckage pointed to the cause of the collapse being the failure of a single eye-bar in a suspension chain, due to a small defect only 0.1 inches (2.54 mm) deep."

More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Bridge

Sue

Ah, yes...I didn't recall Gallipolis, but "the Silver Bridge" does ring a bell. After all - it was 40 years ago, and we've all been through a lot since then.

My memory of the event is fuzzy. I was very young. My mother paced the floor a lot. No cell phones then. It took several hours before my father was able to call. He got home from work about four hours late.

I understand the pacing, no cell phone thing. But four hours isn't all that bad. When I was working in northern Los Angeles County, and still living in the southern part of the county, I can remember being on my way home from a long graveyard shift, and getting home over SIX hours late, thanks to one crash...