Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored

For everyone who's been dreading it (and some people who've been rooting for it for some reason), here it is:

CNN's version
Fox News' version
and finally, the BBC they sound a little spicier than normal

Those sailers in the little bitty boats must have been a long long way from the mothership if they had "lost communications," and it took a helicopter to see what was going on. Hopefully they will not be held for 444 days, or anything close to it...

It seems the Iranian president Ahmadinejad is still pushing to start what he hopes will be an apocalyptic war with the west. I was happily suprised last week when Russia pulled out all their nuclear techs from the Iranian nuke plant under construction. I figured that would "cool the fires" over there. I wonder now if Ahmadinejad feels he has to try some other drastic measure to start up there war to bring home the 12th Iman.

Of course, it could also be some overzealous, low-grade Iranian military officer deciding he needs to be a bigshot...

Ironraven, what is your gut telling you?

-Blast

Again the Iranians seem to be rattling thier teeth, as before they will probabaly be held for a couple of days and released.Its just a bit of showboating to make us Brits seem a bit like invading infidels abusing the peaceful Iranian motherland. If they are not released soon it may get a bit more dodgy.

Be thankful it wasn't an Israeli boat.

I'm not, but there would be little left of Iran if it was an Israeli boat, and we'd be up to our ears in it as well.

Right. Look what Israel did to the USS Liberty and it was clearly in international waters and not in a river with the boundry running down the middle.

That attack was clearly an accident. Or are you suggesting otherwise?

Sorry. While true, I fail to see what that has to do with the USS Liberty.

If you look up "don't get mad, get even" in the dictionary, you will see a picture of Israel. I don't always agree with everything Israel does, but I have always admired the way they handle any attack on them. They don't turn the other cheek, they hit back, as hard as they can...

Fine. I agree that Israel can take care of themselves. I agree that they act in the best interests of their National Security. (Applause, Applause, Applause.) My question is: (and I hope I make it plain:) Did they deliberately attack the USS Liberty, (that's the United States Ship The Liberty), and if so, why? (C'Mon. You think you know somethin'. Spill it!!!!)

Fair enough. I happen to disagree.

Good point. "The Great Speckled Bird" speech should be mandatory reading in US schools. Pay attention to the beatings the Pueblo's crew endured.

Ahmadinejad is pretty inflamatory, but if you watch, he's mostly a figure head. He was just recently told to cool his rhetoric on nukes by the guy who is in charge, the Ayatollah. Irans political structure is a far cry from ours, and its hard not to think "ah ha, the president, he's the guy in charge". Maybe the Iranians are playing good cop, bad cop with the West.

as long as we are standing behind them.

their recent excursion into lebanon showed how invincible they are not.

The survivors from the USS Liberty don't think it was "clearly an accident" but I'm sure they're biased-watching their buddies in the water and lifeboats being straffed repeatedly.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html

even casual research into the incident clearly indicates a coordinated, deliberate attack on a clearly marked US navy ship by the israeli air force and torpedo boats.


back to the original post. i highly doubt anything will arise from this incident, at least i hope not. maybe the brits were probing iranian waters and the iraninas are flexing a little muscle. seems like politics as usual but likely a pretty stupid move on both sides.

I'm not trying to downplay the seriousness of this incident, but I am having a hard time getting a mental picture of "..repeatedly attacked the American vessel with rockets, napalm, and cannon...concentrating on the ship's electronic antennas and dishes..."

I wonder how one attacks just an antenna with rockets and napalm???

I wonder how one attacks just an antenna with rockets and napalm???

You're misquoting. The article said concentrating fire on antennas and comunication.

Ya think it might be to prevent a distress call from going out?

If your interested there are many survivor accounts available to read.

http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.pdf

The “Moorer Commission” (Chaired by Adm. Moorer) investigated the attack and
made the following findings:

“We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel's attack
on USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crewmembers, a review
of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli
and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries,
and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals
having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following:

1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two-
hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world's most sophisticated intelligence
ship, inflicting 34 dead and 173 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of sev-
enty percent, in a crew of 294);

2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time un-
marked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty's bridge, and fired
30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which
were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a
minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency
radio channels;

3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the ma-
chine-gunning of Liberty's firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save
their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close
range three of the Liberty's life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to
rescue the most seriously wounded;

4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a deliberate attempt to de-
stroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by
statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball,
former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William
Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former
NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and
former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;

5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American ser-
vicemen and an act of war against the United States;

6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy
from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue sup-
port while the ship was under attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is sup-
ported by statements of Captain Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft carrier
USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division com-
23
mander, at the time of the attack; never before in American naval history has a rescue
mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack;

7. That although Liberty was saved from almost certain destruction through the heroic ef-
forts of the ship's Captain, William L. McGonagle (MOH), and his brave crew, surviving
crewmembers were later threatened with "court-martial, imprisonment or worse" if they
exposed the truth; and were abandoned by their own government;

8. That due to the influence of Israel's powerful supporters in the United States, the
White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people;

9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, this at-
tack remains the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated
by Congress; to this day, no surviving crewmember has been permitted to officially and
publicly testify about the attack;

10. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history;
the existence of such a cover-up is now supported by statements of Rear Admiral Merlin
Staring, USN (Ret.), former Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Captain Ward
Boston, USN, (Ret.), the chief counsel to the Navy's 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty at-
tack;

11. That the truth about Israel's attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues
to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national
disgrace;

12. That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing
to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation, and specifically are un-
willing to challenge Israel's interests when they conflict with American interests; this pol-
icy, evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and the subsequent official cover-up
of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety of Americans and the security of the United
States.

WHEREUPON, we, the undersigned, in order to fulfill our duty to the brave crew of USS
Liberty and to all Americans who are asked to serve in our Armed Forces, hereby call
upon the Department of the Navy, the Congress of the United States and the American
people to immediately take the following actions:

FIRST: That a new Court of Inquiry be convened by the Department of the Navy, operat-
ing with Congressional oversight, to take public testimony from surviving crewmembers;
and to thoroughly investigate the circumstances of the attack on the USS Liberty, with
full cooperation from the National Security Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency and
the military intelligence services, and to determine Israel's possible motive in launching
said attack on a U.S. naval vessel;

SECOND: That every appropriate committee of the Congress of the United States inves-
tigate the actions of the White House and Defense Department that prevented the res-
cue of the USS Liberty, thereafter threatened her surviving officers and men if they ex-
posed the truth, and covered up the true circumstances of the attack from the American
people; and

THIRD: That the eighth day of June of every year be proclaimed to be hereafter known
as

USS LIBERTY REMEMBRANCE DAY, in order to commemorate USS Liberty's heroic
crew; and to educate the American people of the danger to our national security inherent
in any passionate attachment of our elected officials for any foreign nation.

We, the undersigned, hereby affix our hands and seals, this 22nd day of October, 2003.

Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, USN, Ret.
Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

General of Marines Raymond G. Davis, USMC, MOH
Former Commandant of the United States Marine Corps

Merlin Staring
Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN, Ret.,
Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy,

James Akins
Ambassador James Akins, Ret.,
Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia”

OK, my error. Still, it seems that concentrating on anything with napalm is going to get a lot more than just that one thing. Your guess as to why sounds right on to me...

I agree that the attack was coordinated and deliberate, but the question remains whether or not Israel properly identified the vessel.

I think that the reason some people are convinced that it was a coordinated and deliberate attack upon an American ship instead of a misidentified Egyptian ship is the rather absurd idea that Israel doesn't make mistakes.

Now why do you suppose this unbiased, independant commission includes a former ambassador to Saudi Arabia? What $pecial qualification$ doe$ he bring to the table?

The officers and crew of the USS Liberty endured a horrific attack. Their heroism deserves to be recognized. That the incident was an accident in no way changes this fact.

If after eight hours of surveillance the Israeli's didn't know without a doubt the identity of USS Liberty the aviators conducting the recce flights should have been punished for gross incompetence. No way was that an accident. The Israeli government wants us to believe that it was an accident (oops, my bad) and some of us obviously buy their we-were-incompetent, sorry-'bout-the-mixup story.

Thank heaven the British Navy and Royal Marines are patrolling the Shatt Al Arab Waterways. If it were the US Marines the consequences for this type of incursion into disputed territorial waters between Iran and Iraq would be unthinkable. Lots of dead people and even more warfare rather than ability to keep to a negotiable outcome. Its all about rules of engagement - shoot first ask questions later is not the British way.