This Is Pathetic

I imagine everyone here watched SURVIVOR this past Sunday night, for those who haven't there was a fire challenge, a fire making test to see who goes on to the next level and who gets voted off. Sandra and Becky were given equal amounts of tender, kindling and wood. They were also given a knife and flint to create sparks. After an hour of no success they were given matches. Sandra, in her attempt, ran out of matches. Becky, an hour and a half later into the challenge, was able to build a fire big enough to burn through the rope which rang the bell.

Never having actually built a fire in the true sense, I laughed and thought I could do a better job.

Yesterday was too nice of day to build a fire in the fire place. Today, after coming home from a funeral, I put my self to the test. I began with leaves, small twigs, bigger sticks and a log. After a few tries without the Tinder-Quik, I tried with the Tinder-Quik. To make a long story short, after countless tries with the Spark-Lite, three Tinder-Quiks, newspaper, two matches, an artificial log and thirty-four minutes I got a fire going. This has indeed been a humbling experience; however, it is good to learn now where my short comings are than to learn this in a survival situation. Until I am able to improve my skills, I will keep an artificial log in my trunk.

Jeanette Isabelle

I took my nephew out this past weekend, and, as part of his lesson, we used our sparklights and natural tinder. the tinder has to be VERY dry, and, if you mold it into a sort of nest, and aim the spark into the middle of it, it works ok. But, it did take about 15-20 mins for it to catch a spark. Using the provided tinder-quicks, it caught immediately. All were we doing was catching a spark & getting a flame going; not building an actual fire. Not as easy as it seems!
I also tried with my gerber tinder thingy; I gave up soon enough. Took too damned long <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Not a thing pathetic about it. You did the experiment and you learned from it! Do it a few more times and you'll have developed some skill with it.

TV (when things are going right) makes it look easy because they don't have time to show the actual reality. That would waste airtime. (and be boring)

Actually doing things, trying things, learning how to actually do stuff is wonderful! The only thing that would be pathetic would be needing this skill in the future and remembering that you'd skipped the chance to actually try it.

unimogbert

You need to practice to keep skills up. In my youth, I worked at at scout camp two summers teaching merit badges in the scoutcraft area. For the camping merit badge, I tried to get the scouts skill up to building a two match fire.

Years later, on a Webelos scouting weekend with my son, I was trying to help the camp staff build a fire for lunch following a heavy overnight rain. No problem in my own mind. Half a box of matches later, finally fire. I was awarded a certificate of the "order of the match" at the end of the weekend. How emberassing.

It's amazing how quickly skills can get rusty. Some tinders are better than others after a rain. If you don't build fires with any regularity, and in different locations where the available materials may be different, it is easy to become complacent and think that you "know" what to do. If I had been in a survival situation with limited matches, I could have been in trouble.

Good job trying.
Fire making is a lost art / skill.
After spending my entire youth as a "pyro" I am glad that I have these skills today. I'd like to think that my attraction to fire was my ancestors working through me to keep a survival skill alive.

I used to attend some Native American sweat lodges, the medicine man who is Cree would start a blazing fire in just seconds with one match. He used to say the wind gods would help him out. I always thought that he and his wisdom wer so cool.

Yes. Those of us who grew up starting fires every day in woodstoves as part of our chores and for outside fires take for granted the skill required. And though anyone can learn how to make a fire, it does take some knowledge and practice.

When tourists come to this rural area to camp, they are known to hold matches to whole logs in an attempt to start a campfire. Of course this is viewed with merryment even by the local grade school kids :-)

No, not pathetic at all. Daniel Boone/ Davy Crocket freezing to death at 40 degrees with fire starting supplies might be pathetic, but taking more than a few min. to start your first fire is nothing to be ashamed of.

My "first fire" required "BoyScoutWater"!!! It takes a bit of knowledge and experience to become comfortable with firemaking.

You are off to a good start, unfortunately, without someone about to show you - you must learn on your own......Watching is magic, but learning from discription makes the knowlege truly your own. Just try..once a day, or once a week...Pretty quick you will have the knack, and will be able to start a fire with only the basics - wind - wet - cold - be damned..... You already know the basic principal, now put it into practice, and practice.......and then you can make a fire whenever, whearever......and pathetic can be reserved for other things..Ok?

It took me a long time the first time I tried with a magnesium firestarter, and that was in warm weather, not life threatening cold or rain. It's definitely something one should practice!

It is not pathetic at all. In fact I applaud you for discovering and admitting your (temporary) weaknesses and acknowledging it; If you were in a position that you needed these skill and thought it was easy, you would be defeated more by demoralization then by the fact that the fire wasnt built. Keep practicing, learning and discovering better methods. Then pass that knowledge and skill on.

I tried to make a fire with a bow and string. No luck. Then I tried it with shavings from my magnisium fire starter. No luck. Then I tried it with my magnisium and flint. I got it but if it wasnt 70 degrees and dry, I would have been very cold and wet. I kept tring and eventually I was able to start a fire by all the methods that I tried. But it took failure on many different attempts. But that is what built my knowledge. keep trying and dont get discouraged.

You got it lit, that's what counts. Now you know a lot more than you did three days ago. Look at worked and what didn't. Ask yourself why the stuff that didn't work didn't- odds are, the tinder was too damp.

So you've got more tabs I assume? Put them in your kit to replace what you used, and a little Bic. Practice, practice, practice. When you can get the fire going in the fireplace, move outside- you might even find it easier. If you have the space, one of those yert warmer/portable firepit things is great for practicing, but a metal garbage can lid will work just as well.

I don't think it's pathetic at all. I used to think it was pathetic back when I was having a good ol' time trying to get a Boy Scout campfire going and it took me !@#$in' forever! (Not to mention we needed the fire to cook dinner!)

Like all equipment, skills should be tested, too. In fact, this particular forum may need to be renamed to "Around the Campfire (Once we get it lit in an hour or two…)".

Thirty-four minutes today, less tomorrow. Keep practicing, and you'll be able to do it in your sleep.

And you didn't (looking quickly both ways over shoulder and voice dropping to a whisper) even have to use.... gasoline! <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Sue

This last weekend went hiking a ways with the intention of practicing making a fire in less than ideal conditions. In the Columbia Gorge we just had a lot of rain, followed by a couple days of freezing temps. So everything was either frozen or still soaked through.

I've made some fires in better conditions, but holy moly if that was an actual fire making emergency and not a test, I'd be frozen. Tried using flint, pj cotton tinder, and just a mini mk-1 to split wood.

Long story short, beat the hell out of that knife while batonning through what I could to find dry wood. No luck. Tried a few times with different kindling types (mainly small stuff around the forest [wet], and fire trees [still wet]). Even blistered my thumb carving those trees.

The whole patience thing that everyone always says is vital. Just while practicing I was finding myself getting very frustrated. It takes practice to take the time to really set things up completely. Also learned that a saw or hatchet is really needed in order to split larger logs to find dry wood in wet areas.

And finally, flint is really the ONLY way to go. Bic's are worthless wet.

Jason

This brings up an interesting point.

In my preps I always asume that I would be the one making a fire in an emergency. I had plenty of practice doing this while camping etc. But, what if I was injured? Would my wife be able to duplicate my effort? Would she be able to set-up a shelter? I guess everyone in the party needs to know the basic survival skills in case the other person is incapacitated.

Hey, you learned something. Great. Now a few hints

Building a fire is work. The HARD part comes before you ever even TRY. As I used to say to the younger scouts oh so many years ago "it takes more fuel, kindling and tinder than you think to get and keep a fire going" (I belonged to a city troop, but Dad took me camping/firemaking MANY times before I became a scout - it was trivial by the time I became a scout)

What most of the guys brought back as tinder, I used to laugh, and say "that's small/medium" kindling. Finding DRY tinder is so important, and having a mix of different sizes of kindling is important. From twigs the size of a leaf stem up to say 1/2" - and yeah that stuff 1/16" in diameter it too thick to be tinder, unless it's BONE dry, and your using a match.

BTW It's REAL fun in the pouring rain

Yes, lighters are worthless compared to flint and steel. That's why they and matches can get a fire going in on the first flame even if your tinder isn't perfect and requires less practice and coordination. And don't tell me there is nothing to break with flint. If you ever tried to use any kind of spark-system with damp tinder, you'd know that there is plenty to go wrong, while all you have to do is shake out and maybe warm the Bic in your armpit for a minute if it is super cold. Yes, truly a grossly inferior product in that it is easier and faster to use, more forgiving of operator error and environmental factors, and even if it runs out of fuel it still has all the abilities of a flint and steel.

The sole advantage of flint is the number of fires per ounce, but let's face it, if you need that many lights, it isn't survival, it's a new life style that you are dealing with. That is not to say you shouldn't have flint, but it is an alternative method for use when you don't have or don't want to use a match or lighter fuel, just like your boot lace.

I'm not meaning to kick you in the jimmies, man, your statement was just too silly to resist.

Last night I was able to get a second fire going using the Spark-Lite, my last Tinder-Quick and an artificial log. I was able to get a fire going quickly this time. With a total of four successful attempts, I am able to ignite a Tinder-Quick with the Spark-Lite with no problem. I am now out of Tinder-Quicks, I lost my Spark-Lite in the fire place which is now probably a glob of melted plastic and I am still having to rely on an artificial log to get real wood burning, which may not always be available.

I need to get a new Spark-Lite, more Tinder-Quicks and more artificial logs. I will keep some artificial logs in the trunk of my car for the time being. Hopefully the artificial logs would be accessible in the event of an emergency until I can master the skill of starting a fire with just a Spark-Lite, a Tinder-Quick and what I am able to forage.

Jeanette Isabelle

Sounds exactly like something that I would do. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

At least now you know that you can do it. When you order new supplies might be a good idea to order a spare.

Spark-Lite + Lanyard <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

mix a little Vaseline into plain cotton balls. Pull some fibers lose on the ball, and aim your sparks at them. Instant tinder, far cheaper than tinder quick.

Huh. no harm done at all, I can see your point in a light dunking. In my experience though I've had a lot less luck. It seems a lot of my gear is always wet, and now one test I have in mind is- what if this piece of gear is underwater for a day? A month? Will it still work? I've noticed that the flints used in Bic and other wheel sparkers (including the Spark-lite) turn to mush after a while being wet. Happened in my PSK (constantly, always damp with condensation), happened to a couple of zippos I've had laying around, and to a bic that was left in a pack. After some time (months or about a year, not sure in all cases) the flint there just won't work. The Spark-Lite flint was nearly disintegrated, as was the zippo flints. The bic just jammed and the wheel wouldn't turn.

I don't think I'm all that rough on gear. I guess now I'm curious thinking about it- is the flint on a hand striker the same exact flint on a wheeled striker (bic/zippo/spark-lite)? Anyone know more?
Jason

Bravo *claps*

Well, you've learned two things- you CAN do it, and the only real problem with the sparklite is it is so small. Look at any of these , or go to Campmor, BQ (actiongear.com) or Adventure Medical. Don't pay over $9.50 for it, before shipping. Most places that have the sparklite also have spare tabs.

Rather than buying the big logs, you can get compressed saw dust and wax sticks just about anywhere you can buy matches. Same thing, just smaller so it is more portable. If you need to carry kindling, then you have to, there is no shame in admitting that you can do something even with a few aids becuase you are still mastering it, and you might have a leg up on us hairy types who are planning on carrying tinder but finding small kindling.

Or you can make your own with some clean sawdust (preferably softwood, ask any wood working shop and they'll give you all you can take) mixed 50/50 by volume with melted wax. Mold it into the shape you want, let it cool for a few hours, and cut it with a sharp knife or wire cheese cutter you don't care about. If you want to get real fancy, the tubs from votive candles would work.

Oh, a day is a different story, I was thinking no more than an hour. That is why my firemaking gear is in metal or plastic hard containers, and that are then waterproofed with tape or a bag. Or with a little bit of grease if a matchcase. If I'm in a canoe or a boat, they go into match cases, which go into a zipper bag, which goes into a second one, which gets wrapped in duct tape. Dry is good.

And after a month underwater, I don't expect anything but sea life and submarines to work right.

AFAIK, lighter and sparklite flints are ferrocerium, which has known issues with oxidation. As small as they are, adding water is accelerating the process. That's why you inspect your gear regularly, and carry backups in a weatherproof container if it is critical. My first sparklite is... I don't remember how old, and that is the one I keep in my PSK as I lost the case for it. That gets tested every few months, and if it gets immersed, as soon as possible. I dry the entire kit out under a light bulb and replace the matches and lighter at that point if it gets water in the case, and I sit down and think about what went wrong with my seal.

Now, real flint shouldn't have issues with being soaked for a few weeks, but the carbon steel scraper would have issues. You'd have to knock the rust off, and retouch the edge so it had a nice sharp angle again. Same problem, just with a different component. Unless you are using a fist sized lump of flint or jasper and fist sized lump of pyrite, and just banging the rocks together. :P

That's why the ONLY time I practice making fires is on damp, rainy, miserable days. Yes, it's hard, no it's not impossible. Tinder - dry dry dry tinder can be found even in the wettest of woods, but you're best bet is to have something with you like oily cotton or dryer lint.

One thing I can suggest from having sold the Magfire fire steels - slow down - a hard, steady stoke on a fire steel makes a better, hotter spark. Also, with a firesteel like a hotspark, make a supreme effort to create a good-sized pile of metal shavings that are contained. The heat from these shavings will be of great use to dry out "almost ready" tinder material.

Finally, remember that tinder is often found INSIDE trees and UNDER stuff, and even on a rainy day, plastic makes a pretty good tinder.

I use the Trioxane tablets to start a fire under wet conditions. It drys the wood and then ignites it, then just add bigger sticks as you make heat/coals. The wood on top is drying while the wood on the bottom is burning.

I have found that starting a fire in the damp in not too hard, but the fire needs to be tended to otherwise it will go out and you will need to start it up again. When it is damp, the bigger the dry tinder bundle and the more kindling, the better. Then split and feather up tons of wood before you start the tinder going. I would even go as far as saying to have your wood pile set up to dry next to the fire before lighting up to.

Even if it is not raining, raise the wood pile off the ground (on a couple of pieces of wood will do) and cover the top of the wood pile to keep condensation off. I raised the wood off the ground, but I didn't cover it last time because it was nice and clear and sunny out, but because the area was sooooo green, the dry wood turned to soggy sticks even in the afternoon sun.

I find that fire starting is all about preparation. I've started plenty of fires on wet days with real flint and steel and even a few with a bow drill. I've had very few problems, as long as I used the right materials and prepared them properly. The only time I've had trouble is when I was wet and cold and tried to get a fire going. I was trying to get it started as fast as possible and had problems with it going out because I took shortcuts and settled for wetter wood than I should have.

I totally agree!!!! I have found that most shortcuts aren't!!!!!!!

"My "first fire" required "BoyScoutWater"!!! "

Ronson Lighter Fluid? That's what we use to take on our scout hikes.

(The scoutmaster even borrowed it one trip! <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

"My "first fire" required "BoyScoutWater"!!! "

In addition to lighter fluid, this is also a synonym for Coleman Fuel. Equally dangerous in the wrong young hands, but, what doesn't kill them makes them stronger, right? In our politically correct world, the boys have to use propane stoves, rather than the white gas stoves, so no more readily available Boy Scout Water in our troop. (Too bad, because the white gas works better than propane when it's really cold. Ok, a few eyebrows have been sacrificed occasionally when priming/lighting those stoves, but...)

I once saved a Boy Scout flag burning ceremony with my little bottle of GI insect repellant. That stuff works almost as well as Coleman for starting a fire...