The Dilema of Small Children (Birth-6 Years)

I've always been fairly well prepared for emergency/survival situations, be it where I grew up, in the high deserts of California, or where I live now, the simi-tropics of Northeast Florida, I was confident that I could stay put for at the very least two weeks on what I had on hand or walk away (baring driving) from the situation for at least a week with my knowlage and equipment.

Recently however, with the estrangement of my wife, the fact that I have primary care of my daughter, and the degenerating physical helth of my closest relitives (hip replacements, knee injuries/surgeries, back problems, etc.) I have come to a loss on how to prepare to take care of my daughter when it comes to survival, specifically when you may have to be prepared to walk out with the child (space and weight are issues, as well as how to transport the child).

I do not realy want to use this topic to comment on my situation specifically, I would however ask for a slant to new (2-3 year old), single parents with next to no discretionary spending (around $50-75 a month)

Ideas, Suggestions, Comments, Questions, etc...

Excomantia

Chest carrier for her if you are walking out, and a pack on your back. That way the weight is balanced. The best bet might be to go with a cart, if you can stick to smooth roads and grass on foot.

As far as bugging in, buy two of everything, setting one aside, until you have a month's supply. Remember, there will be relief supplies in two weeks, but stuff she can eat might be a bit more coming.

As for the older relatives, I'm looking at the same issue. My mom and I afraid to tell my dad what would be the likely case with his folks.

James kid made a sacrafice for his kids. Im not a parent but i cant imagine what someone would do if they had children with them. I think most would agree children come first.

A sling, like this one:

http://www.mayawrap.com/

is light weight and reasonably priced. It can help you balance your load out with your pack in back and child in front like ironraven suggested.

My wife still uses her sling from time to time for our 2 1/2 year old. I have used it too and it makes carrying a lot easier, but a little hotter. We have tried different brands including one that my wife made and I think the Maya wrap one is the coolest.

When my daughter was born my first thought was to do just that with the front carrier. Then I tried it out and found that its very uncomfortable haveing both straps on at the same time, and almost impossible to (with my front carrier) to clip the buckle in the middle of my back to keep the straps from sliding off. I thought about buying another carrier from a consignment store, cutting the straps off and sewing webbing onto it in place of the straps then connecting cinch buckles to the straps of my backpack and just attaching the carrier directly to the straps of the pack.. then I realised the front carriers would only be good to carry my daughter up to 18 months, after that She would be a pain if I tried to carry her in one (and that held true). Before my estranged wife became estranged I had planed to carry her on alternating shoulders between the stuff on the pack thats behind my head and my head. Not practicle but doable with two people splitting the shoulder ache. I could still do that but I know I would tire quickly, especially as she grows older.
I have been thinking of something like the Sherpani Rumba with 2800 cubic inches and a weight limit of 70lbs it could last a while and, if I don't take a whole lot, has enough storage; But how long will she realy be able to use it.. I've read that by 2-6 years old children will refuse to do the carriers, and by 4 they will probabily be too big for even the Rumba, granted thats 2 years away for me.. but if I am more then likely not going to be able to use it for back country backpacking trips in the next 2 years, because of the estranged wife, is it worth spending 3-4 months savings on? What happens from 4 years to 6 years when they are too big to carry for long periods of times but too small to realy walk any decent distances, even very slowly. Other then relying on some type of cart where I am restricted to streets and very flat domesticated landscapeing, what can be done.

The sling thing looks interesting, you said you used it up to two and a half years old.. how young did you start useing it? How much longer would you say you could see yourself being able to use it?

Hey all new to site so little patience, please. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I have two small children 1yr old and 3 yr old and have beed thinking about the same problem. The cart idea is what I have come up with also, but make it your self so it is a little thinner and put a couple of large tires (solid - no flates / 14 " tall x 4" wide) on the back so so it is a sled with two wheels. With the large tires it can go off road fairly easy and being thinner can squeeze between the tree. Plus nice bounus is strap your pack to it and it spreads the weight.

Sounds feasable. I'd go with golf cart (the pull type) tires though. They are sturdy and save weight in case you have to carry the cart itself (stream crossings, etc.) Might not be so good in the mud however.... <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I have a 5 year old. Starting when he was 4 years old we went on 5-8 mile hikes in 3-5 hours, and he walked the entire way. Little kids can do the miles, but they need lots of little breaks. The problem with hiking with little kids is that if you are carrying them you cannot carry your gear. My wife and I are prepared to stay put rather then try to bug out if the SHTF.

Another alternative to a cart would be a wagon (a la Radio Flyer). You may have to find a larger one if you have more than one child, and you may have to fashion a restraint system (to strap in a car seat or something). But, they may work well as they can hold additional cargo and they work over varying terrain.

If anyone has any other pros or cons to this, pipe up, because this is purely my imagination. I have no kids and no wagon, so no experience with either.

We have used the sling from new born to about three. Although after about a year, year and a half, the usage drops exponentially.

I like the cart idea, a la lone wolf with child, but the cart probably would limit travel to roads and easy, read more likely to be travelled, trails.

When DD1 was 1-2 years old I used to pull her and gear around RenFests all day at in a RadioFlyer wagon with big, inflatable tires. The faires take place in unpaved areas but the wagon could go over just about any terrain.

The downside though was I spent the whole day in a strange twisted shape to pull the wagon by it's handle. By the end of the day my back was very sore from this continous twist. I think a better solution would be to rig up some sort of pulling harness (with quick releases!) that would allow you to pull the wagon like a draft horse would rather than one hand/arm alway behind you.

-Blast

You almost sound like your saying to make a modern day travois system.. but instead of a big well trained dog or horse use yourself to pull it.. that sounds exhausting but plausible..

When I first started pondering such things as bugging-out, bugging-in, and all things survival I began to look at dogs for protection, hunting, companionship and so on.

Later, when I injured my back I started reading about draft dogs.

A well trained draft dog and cart could be something to think about depending on the type of terrain in your area.

When people think about dogs doing draft work, usually the first and about the only thing that comes to mind are sled dogs. However, there are a bunch of different breeds in a wide variety of regions of the world that are used as draft animals.

Of course that means you have an extra mouth to feed, which could be more than you want. And you have to train the dog as well, of course.

Just a thought.

I've taken my 7 year old on day hikes for a few years now and recently started bringing my 3 year old along. I got the two of them to do a 2 mile loop a few weeks ago. It can be incredibly frustrating. Two kids and one adult is all about getting the kids motivated and moving at the same pace, which is almost impossible. But with just one kid, it's easier.

Still, a 2-3 year old just don't have an attention span to make much of a hike. I too have used my wife's Maya wrap sling to carry both of our kids when they were < 1 year old, but not now that they're bigger. A backpack carrier might work for the 3 year old, but I can carry him on my shoulders for at least half an hour at a time before he wants down. If I had to really move the two of them any long distance, I'd have to break out a jogging stroller for the 3 year old and I'd pretty quickly wish I had a double for both of them. I've had a jogging stroller over some pretty rough terrain, but they're all pretty worthless in soft sand.

I think the biggest thing is to get out and walk now with the kid. You'll learn what works for them. My 3 year old says he hates hiking but if he knows (or thinks) there's a water cooler at the end of the trail, he'll double-time it just so he can pour water on his head. My 7 year old can get bogged down picking up sticks or anything else within reach, but if I break out a stopwatch and time us between markers, she'll haul ass.

The terrain a cart can handle is largely a function of the diameter and width of the wheels. Larger diameters can handle higher obstacles while wider wheels work better on softer ground. I've worked with the difference narrow wheels make with hand trucks loaded with fire wood over the years. They have a tendency to sink where pneumatic wheels spread the weight enough to work.

The terrain a cart can handle is also determined by the width of its track and the size of the trail.

While my wife and I have hauled our kids around in a wagon, I wouldn't do it in a bug out situation only for the fact that I can't see them behind me.

A sling and a messenger type bag seems to work for us as they both go kind of cross body. The bag goes on the bottom, then the kid in a sling. Easier on the kids legs that way too versus with a backpack.

We went on a five mile or so hike where the 2 year old just didn't want to walk. My wife and I took turns carrying her. My wife used the sling and alternately had our daughter go on her back and I just carried her in front since I had the heavier pack. My wife's messenger bag did not interfere with carrying our daughter with the sling or on her back while I could only carry her in front.

With young kids, it will depend on them whether they want to go or not. On our earlier hike, the two year old trucked it uphill for about a mile to get to our destination. But after we rested and waited for the last mom and child to make it up, she got really tired and fell asleep and we had to carry her back down. The five year old is a trooper though and will slog through almost whereever we take her. The only time she will complain is toward the very end of a long hike where her feet might hurt. Then I will carry her for a quarter mile or half a mile and she can usually finish.

It really helps when your children are vocal about things that might bother them. It helps in figuring out how much we can do.

Oh, I also find that kids (and most adults too) need frequent enforced rest stops to rehydrate and maybe snack. Snacks are huge morale boosters for kids.

I was thinking of something based on either a two wheeled garden cart or a modified hand truck. As far as trying it with a wagon (Radio Flier type) on anything but the best surfaces: No Way No How. BTDT with firewood and other loads. It won't work. Unless it's got sides & a wide track they're too unstable.



Most definitely. You can compensate some for the track width by paying attention to how you load the cart. We used to use a hand truck to haul trees to the end of the row for loading on a trailer. The rows were running across about a 30 degree hill.

Hi,

Ah, welcome to life as the primary caregiver of a toddler / preschooler. You bring up several issues.

1) Carrying your child
There are a *ton* of baby carriers for carrying your baby or child on your body. When carrying an older baby or a toddler for a long time, your best bet is a back carrier. Front carry is really only for small babies. Hip carry is useful, but difficult to sustain for a long time. There are "frame" carriers which tend to be big and have lots of straps and buckles. There are also slings which are smaller, and can fit a wider range of ages. I like the idea of slings. The Maya wrap is one of the better known slings that adjust to a large range of child sizes. Another sling that has gotten good reviews is the Ergo Baby Carrier (http://www.ergobabycarrier.com/). I have a Mei Tai, and I like it as it packs down to pratically nothing, yet can support a newborn up to a 40+ lb child (if the adult is strong enough). Keep in mind that there is a learning curve to wearing and adjusting any carrier, so if you want one, try it out and use it several times before you really need it.

2) Child's walking ability
You might be underestimating how much walking your child will be able to do in only a few years. A five year old can trek for quite a distance when used to such exercise, well-fed and hydrated, and properly motivated.

3) Caring for a child
A big step in helping *you* care for your child is teaching *her* how to care for herself. It starts with simple things like teaching her to dress herself, put on her own jacket, carry her own small bag, ask for food when she's hungry, entertain herself without electronics, follow urgent commands immediately (e.g. *stop*), try new foods, drink mostly water (vs. juice), and eventually to go potty by herself, etc. The less time you have to take care of these little essentials for her, the more time you have to take care of everything else, be it an ordinary day or an emergency situation.

4) Walking out vs. bugging in. vs. getting help
Realistically, if you have a small child, odds are that if an emergency happens, you would be better off bugging in or getting help versus walking out on your own.

I think that the single most important thing that you can do to be prepared with a small child is to cultivate the friendship of other local parents who share your views and have children the same age as your child. They will be able to provide you with advice and support that will be useful in emergencies as well as daily life.

-Kuovonne

Picture this: Florida in any season, on foot, rough terrain, wet ground (rain or swamp), mosquitoes, and snakes. And, unless this is a purely personal disaster, law enforcement is stretched too thin or has broken down, and there are packs of human trash on the prowl, so you would have to be careful, and probably hide at least part of the time.

Now add a child (or two or three) and/or infirm elderly people to care for into the mix. It seems to me that bugging out on foot would be (excuse me, this isn't personal) the stupidest thing I could possibly come up with.

As long as you're thinking about this, you might as well plan ahead. List all the possible problems you can imagine, from most likely to least-likely-but-who-knows. And decide the best way to handle them.

The two best plans would probably be to leave as soon as you know trouble is coming (with a definite place to go), or prepare to hunker down and ride it out. And you'd probably want to keep your options open, in case the situation changed drastically and you had to do the exact opposite of your initial plan.

Sue, imagining having to run with just a dog, 6 cats & 4 chickens.... Bleeech!

I've been walking with my daughter on the local state park hikeing trail since she was 10-11 months old (as soon as she began walking), on good days we are up to 2 miles now at two years old.. thats in 2-2 and a half hours though..

She is just shy of being fully potty trained (waits too long to speak up mostly) tries very hard to dress herself and tie her shoes etc.. and god help you if you try to take her purse.. and she understands and minds 'halt' as 'stop, your in danger, that will hurt you, stand still I'll come and get you, hold my hand'

There is now a mandatory category 1 evac in this area for hurricanes (the major recurring bug out in this area), not that I forsee haveing to walk with leaving nearly in 'front of the wave' early in a car, but... just in case...

This will take some time for me as my estranged wife sabotaged my relationship with everyone I know that fits that bill, shortly before she decided to abandon my daughter and I to run off with another man who has 10 kids by His own wife, by slandering me to them.. but thats another story not for this forum. *bitter grumble*

Hi,

It sounds like you are off to a good start with your daughter.

Re: hiking. It sounds like your daughter can go quite a ways on her feet. I bet that in a few years, she'll be able to go really far on her own power.

Ah the joys of potty training. All I can say is that it does get better. And when it is better, it is much better than diapers.

Since you will probably be evacuating via car, have you
thought of having a second travel car seat on hand?
For example, if there is a sale when you happen to have the money, it might be worth considering. There are some car seats that double as strollers and can be used as booster seats in a pinch, and can also be taken onto an airplane. Plus, if you are in a car accident, you won't have to rush out to buy a new one at non-sale prices. A spare car seat can also be useful if you ever car pool with your daughter's friends. It won't help you if you're in a situation you have to walk out of, but it can be useful when you are in cars or airports.

-Kuovonne

There was an idea put forward on the Transportation of Elderly and Infirm Thread that might work for the cart/wagon option on this thread.

Now, to respond to your comments

I thank you for your compliment about the start with my daughter.

You are right that for a two year old she has great endurance for walking on the relatively flat trails at sea level here in Florida, and I have no doubt with my continued guidance (training or whatever you want to call it) it will only increase, however, the fact that she Can do it is not nearly so important as being able to Motivate her to do it.. and from what I've read in an article in the February 2007 issue of Backpacker titled Family Camping 101, it just becomes more difficult to motivate them in the 3-6 years range and they begin to become too big and heavy to carry if they suddenly decide that they are done walking.

I've heard it is hard, I guess I'm just very lucky because she Wants to 'go potty like a big girl', wear 'big girl panties', and 'poo-poo on the big potty like a big girl', she will boldly announce 'Potty Daddy' or 'Poo-poo Daddy' and emphatically insist on useing the 'big potty chair' and she does not like haveing dirty (wet or otherwise) diapers (which I no longer use) or pull-ups (which is what I use for bedtime and long outtings) so much that She is the one trying to get them off to go all the time.
Anyways, this is all mostly outside the relm of this forum, but I have a hard time not talking about my daughter when the opportunity presents itself, like most loveing parents I suspect.

Are these the carrier car seats for infants? If not, could you find an example on the web and post the link? I'd not heard of anything but the carrier travel systems.

These are seats for toddlers. The first works for toddlers up to 40" and 40lb. The other two work with your existing car seat. Note that I do not have any of these and haven't tried any of them. (But I probably would if I didn't already have six car seats.)

The sit-n-stroll
This is a combination car seat and stroller.
For more info see http://www.tripleplayproducts.com/
I saw some of these in the airport and know friends
who have them. Some like them, others don't.

The gogo Kidz Travelmate
This is an attachment that basically adds wheels to
a regular car seat to turn it into a stroller.
For more info see http://www.gogobabyz.com/

The Traveling Toddler
This is an attachement that straps a car seat to a suitcase so that you can pull them together as a stroller.
For more info see http://www.travelingtoddler.com/


-Kuovonne

Bought a wagon that has the infatable tires from Harbor Frieght for my son. Had an extra car seat and extra room behind the seat for pack of whom ever was pulling to put their pack. Keeping it simple and when you are not bugging out, it makes a great way to spend time with the kid. A win-win for times of need or times of play.

When my youngest was born, back before I had a paunch, I used to wear flannel shirts, and sometimes I would tuck just the front in and set her in my shirt straddling my belly, with her feet sticking out the sides. It was an improvised carrier that worked fairly well till she was about 15 months old. Then I started carrying her on my shoulders when I needed to. There was one occasion where I was in a field of grass that was just over my head. I put her up top and she helped me navigate to the river we were headed for. I think she was between 3 and 4 then. It isn't a terribly secure method, but it works if you are careful enough. I would carry her in my arms a lot when we would go places like the shopping mall and it was too much walking, but my arms would ache something fierce after a time.