Bill Van and scout leaders

Bill, My friend @ Ragnar (www.ragweedforge.com) has a new offering, a "Barnekniven" or child's starter set. It consists of two scaled down knives, one with both blunt tip and edge and one with blunt tip but sharp edge, one sheath @ $28 by Brusletto Knives ( Norwegian.) It occured to my in a rare moment of lucidity what a great idea this is for children to learn safe handling and care. He also carries a few official scouting knives. Standard disclaimer " I have no financial involvement, indeed, he takes my money LOL.)

I'll have to think about this one for a bit. My first thought is "a dull knife is a dangerous knife." So what use is a blunt knife to a child. The blunt tip/sharp edge might be practical, but I'm still not convinced.<br><br>My Cub Scout age son has a knife which he's only allowed to carry and use with my permission when we are together. Even then I'm leary as we could become separated and he might accidentally hurt himself while lost. So I'm limiting it's use to around the campsite and I carry it for him on hikes.<br><br>Paranoid? maybe, but I'd rather play it safe.

Chris,<br><br>I dunno.<br><br>Conceptually it seems attractive. On the other hand, scouting looks askance on fixed blade sheath knives. Even folding knives are treated with great caution.<br><br>For instance, initial knife handling technique in Cub Scouts is done by whittling/carving item(s) out of soft soap. This year my youngest son started that achievement by making a wooden carving knife out of a popsickle stick which he shaped & sharpened on a sanding block. It actually worked quite well in helping him to learn how to make and then properly use a sharp (at least sharp relative to soft soap) in a risk-free environment. After demonstrating proper handling & cutting techniques, as well as verbally describing the techniques & safety rules, his den progressed into the use of pocket knives in carving objects out of wood. By spending several meetings, as well as numberous sessions at home with me carving, my youngest son is actually relatively adroit in handling & using his knife (even when compared with somewhat older boys).<br><br>At the Boy Scouting level, I haven't noticed a lot more boldness as to knives than in Cub Scouting. <br><br>After reflection, I believe the knife set you have described sounds good, but I doubt it would be very usable in Scouting. Scouting has become much more cautious than when we were Scouts.<br><br>Thanks for thinking of us.<br><br>John

...for an alternate opinion:<br><br>Chris,<br><br>Thanks for the info. I went to Ragweed Forge and found the knife set, looked at the pics and his description. Very cool idea - wish it had been around when our kids were younger. I like the green and red color coding idea as well. The "sharp" text description was a little mis-leading to me - it looks like a useful knife.<br><br>As for Scouts - I will take this info in with me to the next Troop Committee meeting for discussion - a few Troop-owned sets of these would be very useful for teaching and demonstrating almost all of the things the lads are supposed to master before earning the "right to carry" a knife (Toten' Chip) - actually, there is more to the Toten' Chip than knives, but it's where the path usually starts (axe and saw are part of it also). I think we should add a compliment of folders as well, but they would be for "advanced" instruction...<br><br>I believe that I have written previously about the incorrect presumption that scouts may not carry a fixed blade knife. That is (properly) a local decision. The only words that BSA has to say on the subject are found on page 78 of the current edition of the the handbook (11th Edition):<br><br>"NOTE: The Boy Scouts of America does not encourage the use of large sheath knives. They are heavy, awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores."<br><br>I have read and re-read this several times and find myself in complete agreement with it exactly as-written. I suspect it was very carefully worded. Keep in mind that we are dealing with boys as young as 10 1/2 years old (Cubs and Tigers are younger and generally not allowed the use of sharps).<br><br>In my experience, most non-elderly scouters make presumptions about fixed blade knives based on their personal (lack of) experiences growing up and our of well-intended concern for both the boys and the image of scouting. Hollywood, pop TV culture, and self-serving politics have certainly influenced us as well.<br><br>Another observation is that the great majority of scouters that I know are strictly "weekend woodsmen" - virtually the entire outdoors experience is confined to scouting in some form. While that is not a bad thing at all, when combined with my first observation, it seems to me that we are prone to being a bit rigid in some of our thinking. The absolutely finest scouters I know - measured by the values and behaviors of the boys they influence - are themselves consummate outdoorsmen who do NOT confine themselves to "traditional" scouting for their sole source of experiences. Mind you, I am not speaking of simply measuring the outdoor skills of the lads as an index - I mean over all; the well-rounded boy. Isn't that interesting? Of course, this is merely my observation, and others will have other views of the matter.<br><br>As for myself, I grew up (in the city) with a pocket knife in my pocket. Altho I remember the occasion lucidly, I do not remember when it was given to me - probably around 8 or 9 years old, but I had the use of knives (with supervision) earlier. As you might imagine, my paradigm is a bit different than my younger counterparts in Scouting. My younger brother had to leave his penknife at home by the time he entered Jr. High School, but the "the habit" of having a sharp tool on him stuck, and as soon as he cleared High School, a knife tool went back into his daily wear.<br><br>Our local Council has a policy of no fixed blade knives at long term ("summer") camp. I feel that is a generally appropriate and prudent policy for a number of reasons. But that is the ONLY policy on the subject - actually, a Council or District may NOT make those sorts of decisions for a Troop that is doing a Troop level (VS District or Council level) outing or campout. Food for thought, anyway, Scouters. YMMV.<br><br>My kids all learned about knives and earned theirs in family settings before they were of Boy Scout age. 3 boys and one girl -- we have applied precious few bandaids. Honestly, I have treated more adult scouter knife injuries in Scouting that I have kids (total; not just scouting kids) - not that there have been many, but that's the whole truth of my experiences to date.<br><br>BTW, I like the soap carving thing done by Cubs (John described it, I think). Not all of my boys did that, but the first time I saw it, I thought "Well, that's a cool way to do this - wish I had thought of something similar".<br><br>I am NOT advocating fixed blade knives for regular carry by Boy Scouts - I don't want to see Scouts wandering around campgrounds with a Busse Battlemistress strapped on LoL! But I think these knife sets can be very useful in the context of scouting for the intended purpose - teaching boys proper and safe knife usage without the extra hazards of opening and closing folders. Thanks again, Chris - keep those suggestions coming!<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Scouter Tom

Tom,<br><br>I think you are right in your interpretation of the express policy of scouting re fixed blade knives. More importantly, I'm delighted that the culture of scouting in your area is sufficiently enlightened, liberal, and realistic as to support the choice of fixed blade knives when appropriate.<br><br>I live in an area which is very politically correct, and therefore narrow, illiberal, & bigoted as to reality. In the approximately 4 years of my scouting, I have never seen at any outing or function a fixed blade sheath knife. That includes the several councils with which we regularly interact. Folding knives are regarded circumspectly and frequently absent even in the case of Boy Scouts of advanced rank (oblivious to the 10 Essentials rule). The ambient culture is hostile to and suspicious of knives generally. Having grown up on a ranch, and having regularly hunted (with the attendant cleaning of game) since the age of 10, I am struck by the close-mindedness & steadfast ignorance of the largely suburban/urban population in the region where I live. That attitude permeates the culture which gives rise to Scouts as well. Knives are simply not regarded as the wonderfully useful tool they really are.<br><br>My own children got knives around age 8. I have largely been the one who has taught them proper skills in handling & usage. Indeed, I suppose that is both a father's responsibility & privelege. They have had lots of opportunities to use & develop the the skills on our hunting, camping, & fishing trips, as well as at our ranch. I only wish our ambient culture were a little more supportive & nurturing of realistic skills, rather than being suspicious & hostile to them.<br><br>Incidentally, cherish the well-rounded outdoorsmen you have as scouters in your area; we don't get them in our scouting programs. <br><br>Enjoy & continue to cultivate your rich program--it's not that common.<br><br>John

>> scouting in your area is sufficiently enlightened, liberal, and realistic as to support the choice of fixed blade knives when appropriate<< <br><br>John, er, I don't guess we're all that different here. Depends on who talks to whom about what. There's a huge structure of folks behind the scenes working to develop and support the boys (and young women in the older programs). They don't even get the gratification of being around the scouts outdoors much, but they toil away. Sometimes it can be a real help to everyone if some unit leaders like us make the time to have some friendly dialogue with them - you might be happily surprised. <shrug> You may be more familiar than I am with the entities and folks above the unit level. I've been "drinking from a fire hose" the last couple of years, and it has been quite an eye opener.<br><br>>> I suppose that is both a father's responsibility & privelege <<<br><br>Indeed! But I'm afraid that sort of thing simply isn't possible for large numbers of kids today. So some of us step up to the plate... usually reluctantly at first. My wife has stated over and over again that we WILL remain active at the unit level as long as we are able, regardless of how old our kids are - there is too much at stake.<br><br>>> cherish the well-rounded outdoorsmen you have as scouters in your area <<<br><br>Pssht! Without even checking, I'm confident that you have plenty in your area. Let's see, there's you... the thing is, there are never enough to go around for all the units, and it can be exceptionally frustrating if the norm is "otherwise" in one's own unit. Sometimes I feel like things are "balkanized" these days in scouting - too many small units without enough breadth and depth of adult leadership. Those folks are out there, though - the trick is to find them and talk to them and get some useful spin off them to put to work in any one particular unit and/or district.<br><br>Although the unit (the Charter Organization) really calls the shots, there is a vast resource above it - usually invisible to the unit level scouters. If you can hack your way into that jungle, I hope you'll find the same "treasures" that I have recently discovered. Lots of good folks!<br><br>Good luck!<br><br>Tom<br><br>

Tom wrote:<br>>>>Our local Council has a policy of no fixed blade knives at long term ("summer") camp. I feel that is a generally appropriate and prudent policy for a number of reasons. <<<<br><br>As do I. There are no real camp activities that require such a tool and their presence may lead to situations where they may be abused. I have first hand experience along this line when I was a councilor at a summer camp in the early seventies.<br><br>However, after reading about survival and the comments on this forum, I feel the scouting program should add proper use of a fixed-blade knife to it’s program, especially for older boys. Perhaps a requirement for Camping or Wilderness Survival merit badges would be a good place, or as part of High Adventure programs (although that may be too limiting in participation). I may be wrong, but I don’t think they are mentioned in the Field Guide, which is targeted to older scouts.<br><br>I grew up in Scouting and never received training on a fixed-blade knife. As such, I don’t own one and am unsure how or why I would use one. As I said, I have read about their use, but reading and doing are two separate things in life. Perhaps it’s time I add such a knife to my wish list and start to learn about them myself!<br><br>

As an add on to my previous message...<br><br>I've pretty much ignored previous threads discussing fixed-blade knives. So now I don't have a real clue where to start looking. John & Tom, with Boy Scouting in mind, what would be some reasonably priced sheath knives that I can look into and.or suggest to scouts that are old enough and interested?<br><br>We mostly go car camping with one high adventure outing for the older boys each year. Last year it was a canoe trip in Boundary Waters, this year it's backpacking in the Bad Lands and next year they're shooting for a trip to Isle Royal.<br><br>Thanks

WV,<br><br>I'm not an expert on the subject, and what I allow my boys to own/carry/use on our own outings has been purpose-specific until recently. When we are hunting, they each have a Schrade Sharpfinger (in addition to personal SAK). Collectively they have a few other knives for other purposes. The eldest is flapping his wings pretty hard, and I've tossed a few things his way (gear), but he's an ASM now, not a young Scout. I have discouraged my boys from carry on the belt but that reflects my prejudices - you should pick your own <grin>. (I hope Chris and others jump in here with some ideas...)<br><br>Maybe it would be helpful to read through Doug's discussions on the site. My opinion is that until boys are full-stature, they are better served by "scaled down" knives for the most part, so I guess I lean towards somewhat smaller blades and overall size. And I've become an instant fan of (well made)Kydex/Concealex sheaths VS leather.<br><br>If you are considering the Bushman, I suggest strongly that the Mini-Bushman is "less large". I've some reservations about them, but Piet has reported great success with Bushman in his unit in Holland - you might ask him.<br><br>I thought the Barnekniven that Chris mentioned would be a great unit-level resource for new scouts as they first learn about knives. Gee, we stick the boys right off the bat with the most "difficult" knives; the ones most likely to bite the user - non-locking folders. (And locking ones have other quirks). Starting them off with supervised use of a small fixed blade and then graduating to a folder seems to make more sense to me.<br><br>I don't have any suggestions on specifics for you because I'm really not an expert; sorry. I'm hoping to hear some good ideas from folks myself.<br><br>Addendum: Just read Chris' post - I was kind of thinking there might be something suitable there - I spent some time wandering that site and they look useful. <br><br>A few of random thoughts that might be worth considering: Forget letting the boys chop anything other than veggies with a knife. It's a grown-up skill and hard on the knife to boot. Along those lines, various meal and food preparation chores account for a LOT of fixed blade use in MY outdoors - maybe there's something to that... Fixed blade knives (of suitable general-purpose shape) just beat the pants off any folder for shaping wood (I'm not talking minor whittling) - with care, they are fair drawknives, for example. That's an uncommon skill today but sure would be useful for scouts - even dressing a stave to use for a hiking staff can be excruciatingly frustrating with a conventional "scout knife". Another observation - middle ground on blade thickness. A Gerber Bird & Trout (if they still make them) is so useful that I have to retrieve it from my wife's kitchen whenever I want to take it out for some air - but it is much too thin for a general use knife - a boy would bend the blade sooner or later. At the other end, a fat-spined blade like my older Kershaw can be a real beast to properly re-sharpen sometimes - after many sharpenings, the blade needs to be re-profiled and that's a lot of work by hand. Something in between those extremes would make good sense, I think. Can it be used to split small (say, up to 2" diameter) wood for kindling? It would be nice if the knife was up to that task - and they could ding a knife up pretty easily unless they were taught well. <br><br>Biggest drawbacks I've seen with scouts and their knives are 1) Cheap junk knives that someone bought for them 2) Dull because they do not have anything personally or at home to sharpen them with. I think we should take a lot more direct control over the initial knife choices the boys "make" AND ensure they get an appropriate sharpening device at the same time. I vote for a small diamond sharpener - lots of good ones to choose from. (Hate lugging stones and oil out to campouts). Wet-or-dry sandpaper glued to a small piece of flat 6061 T-6 aluminium scrap would be quite servicable, too - and those are cheap to make if you visit a local metals recycler for the aluminum.<br><br>Be Prepared!<br><br>Tom<br><br>

Shameless plug here Bill- Ragnar @ www.ragweedforge.com has a few sheath knives of moderate cost and decent quality AND they are the issue scouting knives for the boys in Norway and Sweden.That will give a tie in with tradition. Spending a lot of $ on a first knife ( It's still green colored right, been a while,) hazards A. loss and B. the individual preferences as knowledge is gained.

Bill,<br><br>Like Tom, I don't have any specific knives to recommend. I too am lacking in expertise here. Be sure to read Doug's advice re knives. I also agree wholeheartedly agree with Tom's comments above. My oldest son is 11 1/2. He will soon be getting his own such knife. The following are some of the criteria we will use in selecting his knife. <br><br>It will probably be a Gerber or Buck. They're readily available, tough, well made, and not that expensive (if disaster strikes it). They may also be found on sale at irresistable prices. A good warranty can come in handy down the line, although none of us ever expects to use it. A long-lived, American manufacturer is helpful & convenient when a warranty is an issue. Obviously a nearby manufacturer is extremely handy when things turn out not to work right. <br><br>It will probably be stainless steel. Carbon steel may offer better edges, but eventually the advantage in ease of care for stainless steel especially for a teenager (or his preoccupied father) predominates. <br><br>It will be a general purpose knife suitable for cleaning & skinning game, & camping/wilderness use. The blade will be about 4 - 5" long, & be of medium thickness in the spine. The overall configuration, dimensions, & balance need to fit the boy; so care is necessary as to size. A spear or drop point blade seems offers maximum versatility & strength for a knife of this purpose. A full tang is appropriate for strength. <br><br>A fixed blade sheath knife is strong, rugged, & foolproof in its mechanical simplicity. It cannot accidentally close on the user's hand no matter how difficult the task. Much of the time in scouting,they are not needed. But under challenging circumstances, a folder cannot equal a fixed blade. Both of my sons regularly carry SAKs for mundane chores. They have been trained appropriately, & have lots of opportunity for practice. The older boy's Leatherman Wave helps avoid any temptation to misuse his knife; it also stimulates his mechanical aptitudes {for better or for worse :-) }. <br><br>That's our approach. <br><br>John <br><br>

I've read this thread with some interest, but never even considered having something to contribute, not having been a scout (to my regret, FWIW), and not being a parent or involved in scouts, I assumed I was unqualified to comment.<br><br>I have to admit, though, that I was jarred, after reading this thread, at how old the kids are that are being talked about so protectively.<br><br>Ok, so maybe knife nuts are born and not raised... but just to put things in perspective... I admit I have no idea how old I was when I got my first pocket knife (I do remember the one), but it had to be eight or younger. I know that by nine years old I had several jack knives and one sheath (all right, "fixed blade") knife. More to the point, I guess... nobody ever gave me one as a kid, and I don't remember asking permission, I bought them myself.<br><br>As I said, I'm not qualified to comment, but listening to all of this protective rumination about dull edges and dull points, and practicing with soap, and what they will and will not be "allowed" to have, I had assumed that these kids were MUCH younger than teenagers. Maybe you're not giving them enough credit for common sense?

Right on! I had a similar experience growing up - somewhere around eight or so, Dad handed me a pocket knife, told me to be sure to always cut away from myself, and keep body parts away from the cutting edge (I retain a scar on my left palm from one occasion when these guidelines were not observed - happened much later when I really should have known better). Much the same with firearms - I never learned anything about weapons safety from military and law enforcement training that Dad hadn't taught me already. He raised me himself and didn't turn me over to a corporate entity like the BSA.

<< He raised me himself and didn't turn me over to a corporate entity like the BSA >><br><br>Preaching to the choir? Problem is, most ("Dads") don't. And that is not a new circumstance in industrialized cultures - it's at the root of why B-P formed Scouting in the first place. Voluntary community involvement (vs involuntary thru the wallet)... Take a guess at how many (middle class) kids in our troop have Dads who are regularly involved with their boys at the level you and I experienced. It's sobering and scary to me. BSA is not the only way to help the situation. It takes a lot of (my) time, though.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom

To add to Tom's reply...<br><br>The age limit is rather arbitrary. I beleive my Cub Scout age son is mature enough to handle a knife responsibly. But I've seen 15 & 16 year olds that shouldn't be allowed to carry one. Check that, I've seen adults that shouldn't be allowed to carry knives, and that includes a few Scout leaders.<br><br>The BSA provides structure and guidelines for leaders and Scouts. Not all of them make sense, and some are purely for liabilty protection. Overall, the guidelines make sense, but it's still up to the leaders to provide that last step, complete that last link between the program and the boys.<br><br>Like Tom said, you'd be surprised at the number of boys who either don't have a father to show them the ropes. Either they are missing from their life as a result of single parenthood, which is far too common, or the father themselfs don't have the knowledge or skill to pass on to their sons. That doesn't make them bad fathers, just fathers with different skill sets and life experiences. <br><br>I enjoy Scouting as much as my sons do. I try to use the experience to further my knowledge. I take advantage of the other leaders and their skills and backgrounds. And you can even learn things from the kids... really!<br><br>Today there are a lot of "common sense" rules that we used to follow that we no longer adhere to in many places. When I was a young lad, the standing rule was to come home when the street lights come on. My folks really had no idea where I was or what I was up to (although the neighbors tended to keep an eye on each other's kids as they roamed the neighborhood). Today, I don't let my kids go out without knowing where they are or when they'll be back. If they go from one friend's house to another, they call first to let us know. A young lad with a folding knife in his pocket at school wouldn't have even been noticed, as I did with my Cub Scout knife my dad bought me. But today, the metal detectors would flash and perhaps some serious legal charges would be filed. A few years ago a nearby middle school expelled a student for bringing a dummy hand granade his father used as a paperweight to school to show his buddies.<br><br>My point is, that was then, this is now. Things that were once common practice may not be the most prudent course of action today. I do know that my oldest son received his first knife when he passed his Scout Tote-'n-chip requirements. And he has never abused the tool or the right to have it.<br><br>P.S. I'm not being critical of your comments at all, just trying to add my observations and thoughts to them.

John, it may not solely be a function of narrow mindedness, but may be the result of ignorance of the proper guideline. The BSA policy is not clear and I suspect that most Scouters would be under the belief that they are outlawed.<br><br>So print out a copy of the actual policy and present it to any leader that questions your use of a fixed blade knife. Some may not be open to the idea, but some will.

Thanks for the tip. Both the Speider "Scout" and the Speiderkniven "Girl Scout" look promising. Not too expensive, generous finger guard, not to heavy and a shorter, more manageable blade for scouts. The sheaths even have the Norwegian scout emblem to add an aire of authenticity to those who may question a sheath knife, ;-)<br><br>The Speiderkniven gives me a way to make sure my young daughter is covered when she gets old enough for her own knife too.

You comments of using the Barnekniven as a unit resource makes sense. You are right on how a non-locking folder can be tough for scouts to master. <br><br>We have two leaders that are exceptional at teaching Tote-'n-chip. They were the first to introduce me to diamond sharpeners, what a difference. My blades have never been so sharp. <br><br>re: wet dry sand paper<br><br>I have some emery cloth laying around. Is there a specific grit that's useful? (I can't remember what I have off the top of my head, but it's very fine)

Bill,<br><br>You may be right about the narrow mindedness & keeping a copy of the rule handy. I think I need to embark on a program of continuing education for some scouters. Who knows--there may be more troglodytes like me around. Anyway, we'll see how it works. Nothing to lose & a lot to gain.<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>John

Tom & Bill have nearly said it all. <br><br>Probably most of us in this forum are fairly adept in skills relating to the outdoors (including using knives). Otherwise it would not be satisfying, & we wouldn't have an interest in this subject. As Bill & Tom have noted, many kids do not have parents participating in their activities, or the parents themselves lack the skills to pass onto their children. Many kids do not have their own individual sources from which to learn such skills, and they have not had the good luck to learn them on their own.<br><br>Scouting provides a program through which children can learn outdoor skills. In effect, it is a school for outdoor skills, among other things. Its programs are designed to be appropriate to the age of the participants, taking into account such factors as physical size & strength, attention spans, learning curves, judgment, and maturity. Its standards may be a little cautious & conservative, but they do work well. Remember, scouting does not limit boys from learning skills sooner with their parents or on their own. But if they have not otherwise already learned those skills, they will eventually have the opportunity to do so in scouting.<br><br>Knives with dull edges & points are simply training tools. They're analogous to dummy cartridges in a gun for learning & practicing various operations. <br><br>Have you ever felt the grip on a 9 year old. Kids of that age are not very strong, & their fine motor skills are not well developed yet. Carving wood is often too strenuous for them. Soap is a medium which they can comfortably cut, & with good control & direction. They succeed in carving something recognizable before they tire & lose attention. <br><br>Notwithstanding our criticisms, the scouting programs work well. Although I've had quite a bit of outdoor experience, I'm continuing to learn from the scouting programs & working with children & their parents.<br><br>John<br><br>

I didn’t intend to keep this thread going.. after all, I did say that I didn’t feel qualified to say much on the subject, not being a parent and not having been a Scout. However, the direct responses I’ve gotten seem to be responding to things I didn’t say, and I need to set a couple of points straight.<br><br>The only intent of my original post was to express surprise at the age group of the kids being discussed so protectively.<br><br>I did not, for heaven’s sake, criticize Scouting as a whole, or it’s benefits, or intent, or the people in it. I’m sure there are valid criticisms that could be made, as there are with any organization of humans, but I’m in no position to make them. Instead, I expressed regret at never having been a Scout (actually, I was briefly a Cub Scout- but at the time that had to do with gluing macaroni to coffee can lids and weaving potholders, and even at that age I could tell the difference between useful skills and make-work).<br><br>Somehow, despite my saying that nobody gave me a knife as a kid and that I don’t remember asking permission to own one, much of the response has focused on the fact that many kids don’t have parents involved enough or knowledgeable enough to train their kids in such things. No doubt that's true, but it may not be relevant.<br><br>I have no need to get into the details of my upbringing, but there are some huge invalid assumptions implied here. Through most of my childhood my father was a somewhat remote and foreboding figure that worked long hours, traveled a lot, was not involved in my activities in much detail, and was not an outdoorsman. I was an only child until my early teens, so I had no brothers or sisters to emulate and follow, and the fact that we moved almost every year meant that I had no long-term friends for guidance, either. I doubt that my mother has ever spent a night outdoors in her life, and she still regards anything more robust than a brisk walk- and any knife outside a kitchen- with polite horror.<br><br>I’m sure I was never encouraged to own a knife, nor trained in the use of one. I learned it the way I learned most things in my life, by some combination of reading books and trial-and-error. That’s how I learned camping, for instance- when in my teens I wanted to go on a camping trip with friends, I borrowed a tent, bought an army surplus sleeping bag, and went, with no experience and no knowledge, and when I got back I took my new experience and hit the library to understand what I’d done wrong (a lot). Eventually I became an experienced camper, then backpacker.<br><br>I’m only saying this to point out that the degree of parental involvement is not the sole determinant in such things, though I can see how it might often seem so from a Scout leader’s viewpoint.<br><br>Nor am I saying that most 9-year-olds can be expected to already have these skills. My surprise was that there was discussion about giving FIRST knives and baby-step instruction to kids from 11 to “teenagers” who are already involved in Scouting, and thus presumably have some interest in such things. <br><br>Maybe my experience was abnormal, but I’d bet that in a random group of 13-year-old boys, a significant percentage might play along with such silly games while already owning, or even carrying, things you’re not aware of. I certainly did at that age, as did most guys I knew. Some things you just don’t mention to adults, they tend to react irrationally.<br>

Good for you! Of course, we already knew you are a rare person by your presence here and interesting posts <grin>. Your points are well taken - thanks.<br><br>Scouter Tom

Remember, there's nothing wrong with being a rogue, as long as you do so selectively!

Threads often take on a life of their own, especially around the campfire. ;-)<br><br>I hope you haven't taken my comments as being critical of you or anyone elses opinion or experience. It was never meant to that ta all.<br><br>I do see the gist of your point. My folks live in a rural area of Wisconsin. The neighbors kids were allowed to drive anything on the farm, whether it was a gocart, tractor, truck or bulldozer, when and only when they could reach the pedals. Believe me, this was at a much younger age than our teenagers applying for drivers permits.<br><br>The environment my kids grow up in would not tollerate or support such application of measurement. The farm has much fewer fenders and mailboxes to dent or knock down. It is restrictive, and I lament that to some degree. But there are practical reasons for many of these unwritten guidelines. But then, all but my youngest, who can'treach the pedals, drive Grandpa's tractor when we visit them.<br><br>

No, no.. no offense taken, and I didn’t mean to imply that there was. Nor do I have a problem with you, or anyone else, being critical of my opinions- that's part and parcel of making them public, after all- I’d just rather the opinions being criticized are the ones I actually hold. I just felt that my original post was being misconstrued. For one thing, I didn’t want to be seen as critical of the BSA.<br><br>I understand your analogy, and I agree… to a large extent, I feel that I was brought up in an environment that was more isolated, protected and sterile than was good for me, and it seems that the problem has gotten generally worse with each generation since. No, kids cannot do the things that were possible generations ago, nor can kids in an urban/suburban environment do the things that kids in a rural environment can. For the most part, I think they'd be better off if they could.<br><br>The post-war, post-Levittown suburban Mom and Dad's Utopia that we built has just never accommodated older kids very well- it wasn’t designed for them, and they come to know that. Before this new environment designed them out of the picture, teenagers were not regarded as a problem, as a group… they weren’t much regarded as a “group” at all. I don't really blame the parents that much. Since the agricultural revolution parents have always been primarily occupied with providing, and now with our reduced standard of living (in real terms) of recent decades, everyone who can work, has to work, just to keep a household going. Still, it’s worth remembering that before WWII, and before we exiled them to vacation or retirement or nursing homes, most families included grandparents that took over a lot of the teaching load. I think that’s a big missing factor.<br><br>On the other hand, the kids themselves are not inherently much different from generation to generation, or from the city to the country. They have the same active, starved minds, and the same curiosity, and that curiosity WILL find ways to be satisfied, sterile environment or no- it’s just that the more sterile the environment, the more ingenuity it will require. Perhaps it’s just my age speaking, but I find the notion of an active, normal boy who hasn’t explored his curiosity as to how something as basic as a knife works by his 13th year.. somewhat unlikely. I’m a bit skeptical, is all. <br>

Presumed,<br><br>Thanks for livening up the discussion!<br><br>By the way, I had my first pocket knife at age 5. I hunted unsupervised at 12. I bought my own motorcycle at 14 (offroad only till 15 1/2 & permitted). I didn't become an old fuddy duddy until I had kids of my own. Something change then. But I still want them to be able to do the same kinds of things I did--I just want to be sure they're trained right & doing them carefully, at least during their formative starter years (while I still have a chance to help).<br><br>Regards,<br><br>John

Thanks for the kind words.... I think they were kind words. I suppose "rare person" could cover a lot of possibilities... :-)

Willie,<br><br>Emery cloth is made with a fine grained impure aluminum oxide (maybe garnet?). It would be OK, I think. Try it out and see how it works. It's a classic for polishing metal, so it should work.<br><br>The wet-or-dry paper I was refering to is black - silicone carbide is the abrasive (harder than emery). As for grits, try combos of 220 and 320, 320 and 400, 320 and 600 - those are just suggestions. Contact cement seems to work fine.<br><br>It seems to me that the aluminium oxide papers loose the grit faster than the silicone carbide papers. If the silicone carbide paper is used wet (water), it seems to last a long long time. Funny thing - when grinding tool bits, I use aluminum oxide for tool steels and silicone carbide for carbide bits... but that's my experience with sandpaper for sharpening; the silicone carbide works better for me.<br><br>3M makes diamond dust sand paper, BTW - I bet it's spendy...<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom

Here, here. <br><br>While part of why I was never a scout was the theo-political aspect of the local troops (all run by christian fundementalists who turned them into prayer meetings- I'd sooner stick my hand in a nest of Amazonian army ants), the big part was that what parts of BSA aren't taken over by fundementalists seemed to have been taken over by mother-may-I's who were used to city living and having thier thinking done for them. <br><br>I know I was different than most kids, but by the time most kids in scouting are getting permission to use pocket knives, I'd been using fixed bladed knives for years and carried one outside of school one a daily basis. I'd used saws and axes and machetes and even some power tools- HORRORS!! <br><br> If you raise kids without sheltering them from everything, you might be suprised at how young they are when they are ready for responsability. And that isn't just me- it's most of human history. A hundred years ago, unless you were a city-kid and thus retarded by your enviroment, you knew about things like knives and guns and dealing with your dinner outside of a convient wrapper by the time you were 7 or 8. <br><br>No offense to the scouters on this list, but unless I've failed to notice that the generation behind me is full of developmentally delayed kids, you really are insulting thier intelligence. Treat them with respect, give them some REAL responsability (not simple stuff like taking out the trash, but something where risks are real and right there in front of them, be it going hungry or cold for a night, or getting cut or burned or maybe even letting them break a bone), and let them learn on the real thing rather than dulled and safetified junk, and you get kids who can take care of themselves when it isn't a text book situation that has a simple, rote-learning solution. <br><br>And before anyone mentions me not having kids, you're right. But my nephew is 4, and his dad and I have taken him on the range (he is only allowed to handle empty brass and amgazines at this point, though), he knows knife and gun safety, and he's helped to clean deer and seen it go from being fuzzy to lunch. He knows how and when to use a saw and a hammer, and has learned how to spend a night in the woods if he has to. He's had his state mandated testing, and those say he's stronger, smarter and healthier than the other kids his age. He's coming up like my siblings and I did, and we tested the same way when were that age. <br><br>Stop treating young adults like kids, and they will become adults rather than little kids in adult bodies. It wasn't that long ago that a 14 or 15 year old was considered to be something of an adult and ready and able to be treated like one, by themselves and the world.

John, I hate to disagree with you, but most 9 year olds who haven't been ubanified can handle a knife safely. By that age, I was using hatchets and machetes and hammers on real nails.<br><br>Of course, that means that they have to know how to think through a problem rather than brute force it or ask someone to think for them, becuase you have to think about what you are doing, and not be a total couch potato. Maybe do something boring and not very high tech that builds strength, like stacking wood or shoveling the deck or raking leaves. Build a tree house or help redo the deck. That kind of thing.<br><br>Of course, city kids get screwed out of all of that. And I really do pity them.<br><br>(And yes, I do have a bias against people who think living a concrete cave behind a triple locked door is natural, and think meat starts off in a styrofoam tray. One of the problems with America is that most folks are born, raised and living urban areas, and thus never really get to meet the real world.)

(Where's that durn fire extinguisher when I need it...)<br><br>Hmmm, I've had to delete my reply a few times. OK, several times. Your words are noted. I guess I'm pretty hot, and re-reading your post, for good reasons. Let's drop it the subject. I'm personally not learning anything useful from this sort of exchange.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom

AAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...<br><br><br>I've just torn out the last of my hair. <br><br>John<br><br>

Hmm. Well, I suspect that your first paragraph is what’s causing the heartburn, and that’s well past the area that I’m qualified to comment on, again, never having been a Scout and not being a parent... and it's probably best to steer around issues of politics, religion and sex here. <br><br>About the most I can say, is that I’ve run across Scout troops in the woods from time to time, and they seem to vary more in character than one would expect from a large institution- on the other hand, it’s been a lot of years since I encountered even one such group, so possibly that has changed as well.<br><br>On a more theoretical note, I always thought there was a lot of wisdom in the system that evolved in England and Europe over several hundred years, and which we abandoned, perhaps prematurely, a with the Industrial Revolution.<br><br>Basically, a boys life was divided into sevens… for the first seven years, he was primarily the mother’s responsibility, and she was in charge of teaching him the basics of domestic life, hygiene and housekeeping.<br><br>At around 7 years old the boy became primarily the responsibility of his father, learning his father’s trades and skills, and the basics of a man’s role.<br><br>At 14 years, as most of us know, most boys have learned all they’re prepared to learn from Mom and Dad, and are growing increasingly impatient with them. Generally, though, they will respect and learn from an adult outside the family, and that’s where the apprentice system came in. A contract was signed which traded 7 years of the boy’s labor in exchange for room and board, training in a trade to journeyman level, a set of basic tools for his craft, and a suit of clothes at completion. With any luck, he emerged at age 21 (hence the age of majority) with experience and training in 3 different worlds, and able to make a living for himself.<br><br>No system is perfect, of course, but this seemed to match pretty well the natural tendencies of growing boys, and trying to keep most at home until age 18, much less 21, creates huge strains. I think I sort of hoped that Scouting took over at least some of the role left vacant by the apprenticeship stage when it disappeared.<br>

here, here!!!!!!<br>thank you cyberraven and presumed lost! <br>being one of the youth you guys are talking about(well not quite, i'm am english youth) I am quite shocked as to some of the peoples views on kids and knives. <br>I don't really know what to say. <br>I think you are definitly not giveing them any where near enough credit. <br>once again thank you cyberraven and presumed lost.<br>-james <br>P.S I may sound angry and I may be being rude about other peoples views wich is something I allways try and avoid. I am angry, and well... insulted at what you think of the "youth of today".

Folks, I've just re-read at all of my posts in this thread (and several others) and I really do not understand where all this umbrage directed at "us" (us? us who?) is coming from.<br><br>Some examples: <br><br><<I am quite shocked as to some of the peoples views on kids and knives>><br><br>Whose views are those you refer to? I didn't appreciate a couple of anti-whatever posts that were preachy and seemed to put words in my mouth and ascribe actions to me that are completely false, but it seems to me - re-reading these posts - that you might be refering to those allegations about others views of youth rather than any expressed by me or other scouters? Or perhaps I misunderstand what you wrote...?<br><br><<I think you are definitly not giveing them any where near enough credit>><br><br>Who is"you"? I've made no statement about what kids may or may not be capable of and I'm trying hard to keep from responding in detail to a rather presumptuous, insulting, and inflamatory post made recently. Again, could it be that your comment derives from that post and similar (more restrained) ones, rather than anything I or other scouters have written? If so, your comment is mis-aimed. Again, I may be misunderstanding what you mean...<br><br><<insulted at what you think of the "youth of today". >> <br><br>I do not believe I have stated in this thread or others what *I* think of today's kids. Neither I nor my kids remotely resemble those persons described in other posts, and some folks don't have a clue about how some of us raise our kids (in the city), although if they weren't so quick with the keyboard, they could actually read some previous discussions and get a strong idea that it isn't anything like the derisive picture that was painted.<br><br>I believe that I agree with a LOT of the sentiments expressed by folks who seem to think very poorly of parents, scouts, scouters, etc. I am pretty upset with the choice of apparant targets of some of those posts. Please go back and note WHO wrote the passages that have inflamed you - was it us evil-stupid-parent-scouters who wrote those passages, or...?<br><br>Now, if I completely mis-understand your post, forgive me. Tell me exactly what I said that triggered your remarks so I can understand where you are coming from.<br><br>I am NOT trying to insult you or anyone else, nor do I wish to inflame matters. But if the loud noises are coming from a contemporary, accurately informed, knowledgable source, I will fall out of my chair in shock. Some of the loud noises sound like fanatic religious rants against some mythic evil doers - how ironic!<br><br>I sure hope this is the last post I make on this topic - I wish it would drop and die, because I'm not learning anything useful from this, and some folks seem to have their undies in a bundle for reasons that don't make sense to me.<br><br>Thanks for reading through this post - I enjoy 99.99% of the posts and dialogues here and have learned a number of useful tidbits. More than enough said by me; I'm quits with this thread.<br><br>Tom

Tom, it isn't a specific you, but a generic towards the world in general.<br><br>As far scouting s concerned, leavingout the politics, I've had the chance to watch only my younger brother's troop. He was the unoffical head of a group of rebels who did things like winter camping on thier own, repelling, and learned woodscraft. I taught that group a lot, outside of thier troop, becuase thier leaders were more of the macaroni-project types. That's fine for cub scouts, maybe, but boy scouts? Camping from cars, rather than walking in to the site. The only tme anything even remotely risky was attempted by a new scout leader, these rebels basically mutinied becuase he was needlessly endangering scouters on a winter campout- no rations, minimal water, all kinds of garbage that would have landed the troop in court if something unscoutly hadn't happened.<br><br>These are the same rebels who bulled through a fire/rescue explorer post that did things like actually show up at fire grounds, much to the horror of the council. <br><br>And they all got thier Eagle, and they all were OA. And they all left in disgust after thier troop decided that it was too dangerous to teach knives and fire making when they had kids who lit fires and used knives in inappropriate manners already. Never mind throwing out the psychos, just punish everyone else. <br><br>Maybe I'm in an area that needs a major house cleaning. But every scout troop I've seen hasn't impressed me. The kids who want to learn fieldcraft leave and learn on thier own, becuase they are bored. The only ones left are the ones who's parents make them go, thinking that it is a good influence, while thier little monsters would rather be out torturing small animals and lighting fires. (I'm not making that up- I know some of the kids in question, and some of them had already been in juvi court by the age of 10.) <br><br>When it comes parenting, a lot of us here are or will be trying to raise kids right, to make sure they know about something other than the couch. But most parents aren't- and I don't buy the "too busy just making ends meet" line, becuase my mom did, by herself, with a three boys and girl. I mght be the most comfortable living from a twenty pound pack for a week, but we all can do it. We all knew how to use a knife by the time we were 8. We all knew how to shoot by age 9. We all learned that nature isn't a special on the Discovery Channel, but as real or more so than anything that humans wrap themselves up in, try to escape it.<br><br>And part of it is, we as the older generations, don't think the younger generations can do things. We, as a culture, shelter them and insulate them from anything that isn't synthetic. And part of that is the growing urban concentration- I consider raising a kid int he city a form of neglect, becuase they never get to see the stars or white snow or clean water or anything else natural. And then when city folk move to the rural areas, they whine becuase they don't want the real country, but rather the cute and cuddly and sanitized for thier protection green acres version. <br><br>It isn't attack on anyone person. It's a complaint about an organization that has, in my experince, left it roots, and about a society that seems to be collapsing under the weight of the clueless. A rant. A venting. <br><br>And nothing personal.

Two comments, hoefully in non-flame mode.<br><br>One, each troop, or any organization for that matter, while vary in philosphy, atmosphere and culture. Troops can be sponsored by non-religious organizations, such as a PTA or Moose Lodge or whatever. Each of these institutions would impart a different "flavor." The BSA provides a framework for the chartering organizations to follow. Most organizations actually take a back seat and have only a moderate amount of influence over the troop's culture. Others, like the Church of Later Day Saints, take an active role and their beliefs are very much evident in the way the troop is run. It's unfortunate that your experience or perception of scouting was soured somewhere down the line.<br><br>Two, there's a big difference on the level of responsibilities and skills a group leader should teach youth from what a parent teaches. You're brother is within his rights to provide basic firearm and knife safety instructions to his four-year-old son. I, as a Scout leader, cannot make such decisions for other people's children. It wouldn't be ethical and it would likely result in a huge legal liability. Remember, these organizations are not meant to replace child-rearing parents, although that happens sometimes. <br><br>If your nephew were to decide to join scouting down the road, his troop would be better off because of his experience, and I believe he can benifit from the experience too. I personally take the position that the skills and knowledge the boys acquire through the program are seconday to the confidence and leadership they develop by participating. <br><br>If you're still reading this far down, thanks for taking the time to hear me out. BTW, I think it's cool that you and your brother spend so much time with your nephew. I know too many people that don't and you can see the difference in the child. Kudos to you both!<br><br>

Whew! Here I am contributing again to the thread that just won't die. But I have a few comments about your last post.<br><br>1. There are good troops and there are bad troops. And it's usually the quality and quantity of the leaders involved that makes a difference. Remember that some of the volunteer leaders have no background in the outdoors. But they are volunteering and they are involved. BSA has training programs to help teach basic outdoor skills to leaders, but nothing compares to actual experience. My troop as a youth was not into wilderness or winter camping. So my skills in that area are weak, hence I'm trying to learn from my peers and resources such as this site/forum. But even without a high adventure program, I benifited greatly from the program and would not have given it up at any cost.<br><br>2. If your brother was active in scouting during the mid-seventies, then your comments make more sense. BSA changed the program in order to make it more accesable to inner-city youth. It's now referred to as a period when they took the "out" out of "scouting." A scout could actually reach the rank of Eagle without having ever learned how to light a fire. Membership took a huge nose dive frpom which they never recovered. They put the "out" back in during the early eighties. They even commissioned an earlier author of the Scout Manual, "Green Bar Bill," to rewrite the urban version.<br><br>3. I hate Cub Scout macaronni projects too!

hey all! <br>it's the youth of today back at the keybord, typing before he thinks.<br>well cyberraven at first I thought "how the hell does he know whether it was a rant or or wether it was personel" but I soon relised it was a rant and a vent. <br>I apolegise to all who'm are involed. I got very angry as I think i've allredy said and well the reply butten looked so very inviteing.<br>how ever (you knew there was more didn't you?!) as for this remark by Ayers T G : Some of the loud noises sound like fanatic religious rants against some mythic evil doers - how ironic!<br>erm well I don't understand all of that. I would like to know what you ment so as I can do a bit more venting, it sound like it was ment to be rude, but i'm not certain. <br>once again I apolgise for the ranting and venting. <br>-james

I agree with you that there are things that parents should be teaching. The thing is, they expect (when it comes to things like knives and fires and knowing what leave is safe to whipe your butt with) to BSA, becuase thier scout leaders taught them. Just like they expect the schools to teach thier kids everything else. <br><br>Instead, at least in my experinces, the local scout troops seem to specialize in recreational crafts therapy for bipedal vegetables. So the kids who want to learn either suffer or leave.<br><br>As for spending time, wish it was more. My brother and I are fighting the trend that my former sister-in-law propegates- let someone else do your thinking for you, and you will be ok, becuase they will feed you and entertain you. <br><br>And he'd probably scare his scout leaders into gibbering insanity- if we can keep his mother from corrupting him too much, he's going to be bigger, faster, stronger and smarter than anyone in his pear group. Not to mention a lot more confident and skilled. His brain will either explode from overload or he'll be mistaken for a god by the time he's 25. :)<br><br>

I agree with the ending you have writen at least if not all. I had my first .22 gun at 6, and I had many folders before that. I can still remember a cheap brightly gripped dagger I had, mainly becuase I was sittng by tyhe pond whittling and my mother came a toosed it in the pond. She had no reason really, but that was just after the divorce. I only dabbled in scouting as a child. I was pretty bored with it. Just to go see kid type friend had to travel about 1 /12 miles thru the woods to get to the closest neighborhood. By my scouting years I was ahead of most of the leaders, at least so far as I was concerned at that time.<br>After my parents divoced and as my mother forbade most weapons, oddly the .22 was not considered such, I began to collect knives that a kid can manage to aquire. My son has these knives now, and since most of them are pretty much gone more or less he says some of them are collectors!<br><br>I don't have much use for stainless these days it just does not float my stick.... When I want a knife I want a sharp knife. I found a shefield bowie with no guard or grips working construction. it was dug from a cellar hole in the open ground. it was a tad rusty, but cleaned up very well. It is some 15+" long 1/4" thick, and the blade width is some 2/12" at about the widest. I made a brass guard and moose slab grips for it.... That is the only knife I would consider chopping and spliting wood with that I have....<br><br>Please note I am condensing replies here for better or worse.<br><br>My method to split wood with this knife which I don't really do... would be if the split wood was sawn as fire wood, to make 1 chop into the end on the cord wood, and then flip the cord wood over and slam the spine of the blade down on a wood chopping block, driving the blade intp the cord wood.. I have done that a few times, but ususally I have a belt ax or bigger with me and tend to use the better tool for the job, so long as I have it that is...<br><br>it seems to me Stainless like the diamond sharpeners, and carbon steels tend to like natural and man made noviculite type stones to sharpen. I generaly use water with oil type stones if I buy them new. Once a stone has been oiled , oil must be used from that point on. All the liquides do is float off particals of steel, so the stone does not clog.<br> My 2 cents anyway..... Kinda funny here reading and seeing just how far the PC effect has gone.... I think you are supposed to be 18??? to buy a knife these days? ... Mac

I recently went ahead and purchased two fixed blade knives from Ragweed Forge. Both are manufactured by Helle in Norway. I bought a Fjelkniven for myself and a Speider for my son. I bought them both as gifts (my wife to me on Fathers Day), so I haven't used them yet. But here are a few first thoughts just on initiol inspection.<br><br>First of all, the craftsmanship and quality are very good. There's nothing extraordinarily fancy about them, which appeals to me as I prefer to keep it simple. <br><br>The Speider, which means "Scout" in Norwegian, is definately smaller. The blade is about 3.5" and the handle is ment for smaller hands. I have relatively small hands as an adult (size 8-9) and the Speider is not comfortable in my grip. The bottom of the handle rests on the heel of my palm instead of extending past it. So it's sized for a small hand, but an older boy's hand may be already too big for it. I'll have to watch my son's growth and upgrade him to a larger handle as his hand size increases.<br><br>The handle is a plain grained, darkly stained birch. Nothin fancy, which keeps down the cost $29, and will be less obtrusive when he wears it on campouts. That appeals to me as I don't want him to draw attention to himself because of the potental conflict with scout leaders who haven't don't know the BSA policy. (Thanks, Tom, for finding the manual reference. I've copied onto my Palm in case we're ever questioned about it.). The dark green leather shealth also has an embosed Norwegian scout emblem, which is a universal symbol of scouting. This also will lend an air of being an official knife to it. The sheath also has a snap to hold the knife secure. I like that as it will help prevent him from losing it accidentally. Kids have a knack for not paying attention to their belongings as well as adults do, even if it's strapped to their bodies. :-) The Speider blade is made from non-laminted stainlees steel, which keeps the price down. It also has a metal fingergaurd that will help protect young, eager hands.<br><br>The Fjelkniven is an attractive, but not fancy looking knife. The lightly stained curly birch handle has a distinctive grain. The handle shape is comfortable and is shaped to provide a slight finger gaurd to help prevent your hand from sliding up onto the bad. It's not a true finger guard, but it will help one's grip from slipping. I like that as I have never owned a fixed blade before, so the shape helps provide me with some piece of mind. Plus it fits comfortably in my hand. It comes with a leather sheath and the knife is secure only by friction. That worries me a bit, but it is a tight fit and actually takes a slight effort to remove. Perhaps it will slip out with less effort as the leather is worn. But for now I don't think I'll loss it. The 4" blade is triple laminated steel, as quoted from the Ragweed Forge website, "The center portion is of high carbon stainless steel, hardened to 58-59 HRC. This is the harder part of the blade that holds the edge. The outside layers are tough 18/8 stainless. This makes a blade that can be sharpened to a very fine razor edge, and yet is not brittle."<br><br>I will report back once we "receive" the knives as gifts and actually use them in the field.

Bill, I think you will enjoy the knives. If you have any questions be sure to email Ragnar. He is very generous with his knowledge. For loss prevention I suggest tying a simple lanyard from the hilts to a belt loop, or a simple extra securing lash around the hilt and sheath. With a non binding knot you have quick enough access. Ask ragnar what dressing to use on the sheaths. Some actually make it pliable, while waxes can actually stiffen it. You may also consider engraving your son's name or S/S# on the blade. Ihave a feeling the other scouts will be lusting after it! knives are like guppies and coat hangers. You walk away from the closet or aquarium and more seem to turn up! ;O)

>>>For loss prevention I suggest tying a simple lanyard from the hilts to a belt loop,...<<<<br><br>The blade tang extends all the way through the handle and is secured by a brass "rivet." I'm not sure how I could secure an eye hook or something to attach a lanyard. It would be off-center and I'd worry about weakening the wood by placing it to near the tang or the outside edge. I'll contemplate it a bit. <br><br>I suppose I could fashion a slip loop that would be attached to the back of the sheath and over the hilt, but there's nopt much size differentiation to prevent it from slidding off.<br><br>BTW, the knife sits way down in the sheath with only the last inch of the handle being exposed. So it is a tight, secure fit. But Murphy's Law usually does prevail!<br><br>I'll ask Ragnar about that and the leather treatment.<br><br>Oh, regarding engraving, would one of those shopping mall places be suitable or should I look elsewhere. (great idea, BTW).

I may be the minority opinion here, but I don't think you need to worry too much about retaining a knife in one of those nordic-style sheaths... and while I've used lanyards on knives (on the water), I hate them.<br><br>I've used a variety of sheaths that come half-way up the handle or further, and I've never had one come out accidently, even when they were very loose. The more the sheath can swing freely, the more secure the knife is. It takes some getting used to, but.. have you ever seen ANY old time/primitive sheath with a retainer? (Ok, yes, I know the Vikings tied their swords into their scabbards, but that was only when they were going to be drinking..). If nothing else, you're enforcing that it will always take two hands to retrieve it- not always a good thing- possibly, someday, a very bad thing.<br><br>As for lanyards... as I say, I have used them on and in the water, where if you drop it, it's history.. but short of that, I would never bother. They're always in the way, and they get hung up on things. If you do actually drop it, having a (hopefully) very sharp knife suddenly swinging around your legs is not a great thing either... and on the trail, how far is it likely to go even without a lanyard?<br><br>I think they're mostly useful to prevent loss. An old timer that I used to camp with now and then as a teenager cured me of that problem on the trail- he would smack me on the head every time I put a knife down. He insisted that you NEVER lay a knife down, even for a second- it went back in the sheath or pocket, or even teeth, if you needed both hands. Once you REALLY rid yourself of the habit of setting a knife down, they don't disappear any more.<br>

<<Oh, regarding engraving, would one of those shopping mall places be suitable or should I look elsewhere>> Bill, I take knives to a local jeweler's (non-mall) for knife engraving. They do a great job and only charge me $5/knife for firstname mi. lastname Regards, Tom

Bill,<br><br>It sounds like you've gotten a couple of really nice knives. I think you'll like using a fixed blade sheath knife. They're unbeatable for really demanding jobs due to their simplicity, strength, & total security against accidental closure or mechanical failure. :-) <br><br>By the way, are fixed blade knives really that unfamiliar to you? Just look around your kitchen. :-)<br><br>I'm inclined to agree with Presumed that if your knife is nearly swallowed by the sheath, it is unlikely to fall out. Of course, I don't know what kind of acrobatics you plan to do while wearing it. You may be a much more active scouter than I have seen before.<br><br>Good luck with your son's scouting use of a sheath knife. You may want to photocopy generously the entire page out of the handbook on the policy for both of you to carry. A photocopy of what is obviously the handbook is mandatory authority on this issue. Make sure your son is fluent on the policy, the rationale, and the argument in case he is challenged.<br><br>How long is the handle on the boy's knife?<br><br>Best scouting wishes,<br><br>John

Ragnar basically echoed your thoughts that the deep sheath was sufficient. He also added something about Chris' sanity if he used a lanyard on a knife, unless he was up in the rigging (which he may well be on some days)!!! :-)<br><br>>>>You may be a much more active scouter than I have seen before.<<<<br><br>Hah! I doubt it VERY much! ;-)<br><br>>>>How long is the handle on the boy's knife?<br><br>4 inches.<br><br>BTW, one of my co-workers used to be in the jewelry trade. He still has a good friend that does ingraving and hand-etching. Besides adding his name to the blade, I'm considering ading a small design, perhaps the fleur d'leis, the international symbol od scouting.

O.K. I typed faster than I thought. Ragnar and Presumed are correct about lanyards. I meant to suggest a short string tied to the sheath and handle and not a true lanyard. I do use them on the ocean. My Finnish knife set is so deep in the scabbard merely the flaired pommels are visible. These are dedicated snow knives and are worn under my coat. Now I have to email Ragnar and redeem myself.

Just my two cents.<br><br>My first knife was a SAK classic and I was 8. I cut myself with it that day and was treated with a bandaid. Each subsequent "mistake" was a lesson painfully won with little real consequence. I still think this is a fine first knife. As far as a real knife, I am partial to an inexpensive neck knife such as a CUDA,CRKT Stiff Kiss MDP, or the like. I personally wouldn't recommend serrations for a first knife.