Recent school shooting worry you?

what is the world becoming nowadays with spike in suicide shooting at schools? The previous Columbine shooting also fit the profile of suicide shooter. The recent shooting at Amish school which killed 7 kids. There was another shooting in Montreal, dawson college, which resulted in 9 dead students and the shooter himself. All psychiatrists concluded this shootings represent outward suicide attempts by depressed people.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/amish.shooting/index.html

Are you worried that schools becoming an outlet for people to express their anger at the world?

Shootings occur where the shooters know there will be no one armed. This is evident in schools as well as the famous incidents at Lubey's restaurant in TX, and the Long Island RR.

Anti-gun proponents scream for more gun restrictions when in fact the restrictions cause more deaths than they solve. Just look how well these laws have worked in NYC and DC. How many gun crimes are committed in areas with an abundance of legal gun owners?

Quite the contrary. Schools are incubators for all the worst behaviours in human beings. What other aspect of life generates such antipathy? Look at pop music - song after song after song about how much school is "hated" - songs advocating violence against the school make the charts. Anyone here old enough to remember "Schools Out For Summer" by Alice Cooper?

Here's a snippet of the lyrics from that one:

School's out for summer
School's out forever
School's been blown to pieces

No more pencils
No more books
No more teacher's dirty looks

Out for summer
Out till fall
We might not go back at all

School's out forever
School's out for summer
School's out with fever
School's out completely


Under current "zero tolerance" rules that entire song would be called a "terroristic threat".

Certainly, schools become centers of both over-zealous authoritarianism and as a result develop an excessive level of emotion and anger.

That's my personal opinion, and has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone else.

[color:"red"]WARNING: This conversation is about to veer into some serious politics and I may need to kill this thread if it gets out of hand. [/color]

Disclaimer: I'm a life NRA member. My opinions are my own, not that of Equipped.org



I live in Pennsylvania. We have very moderate gun laws - i have a CCW permit, getting it was basically a matter of asking for it. You can get and use machine guns in PA with only a little fuss. While PA isn't as "gun freindly" as other states (like Vermont & Alaska), it's not anything like Illinois or New Jersey.

The point of this is that the patchwork of gun laws in the USA, coupled with the fact that there's maybe 200 million guns out there already means that if tomorrow we instituted Washington DC style gun bans it would be 100 years - probobly more - before the guns that were already in circulation stopped working, and if they stopped making ammo tomorrow it would be scores of years before the supplies in place ran out. So we're an armed society - but we're no longer gettng the other half of an armed society - the polite society. The latest outrage was for revenge for something that happened 20 years ago. What twisted mind holds a grudge for that long is bot for me to understand, all I need to know is that people like him are out there, everywhere and we'll never eradicate them. So I like to be prepared for them. I don't think that it's rational to hope nothing bad will happen and with that hope to not prepare for something bad - "just in case". Human history is a catalog of atrocities of man against man, wars over fine points of manners, anger over issues that are profound and absurd. In this context, I see school shootings as nothing less or more than the continuation of bad behaviors that have gone on for millenia.

To the point of "soft targets" like schools - of course predators strike where it's easiest. The question is how hard do we want & need to make our culture. I don't want Iraq to be the model of my future, and I don't want the UK to be either. I wish I were smarter, I'd give a terse, intelligent answer.

I am not concern about gun control. I am more concern about gettin treatment for people who are severely depressed. They need medical help so tragic incidents like Amish school shooting can be prevented.

I suspect if this individual was that disturbed, he has probably had contact with either law enforcement or the mental health system (or both) at some point.

Our mental health system is pathetic. It's a revolving door of minimalist bandaid treatment:

1) An individual decompensates (goes bonkers) and comes to the attention of law enforcement, county coroner, or wanders into the emergency room.

2) Is admitted to a psych unit which is crisis stabilization only,

3) Sent out to follow up (maybe) with a overburdened assembly line mental health system until s/he stops taking the meds, decompensates, and the cycle begins again.

4) Until of course they kill someone. Then they're diverted to the Dept of Corrections until they are released. Then go back to step 1.

The school shootings are not so much a gun control issue (of which I am in favor of in moderation), but of a number of factors.

1) Columbine - parents not raising their kids but letting the tv or video games do it, and kids not being taught respect for other human beings. No sense of community or belonging.

2) Colorado - sexual predators have not been shown to be treatable. (as much as it appeals to many, castration doesn't work), so life imprisonment is the most practical answer.

Taking away the guns won't solve the problem. The nut jobs will only grab machetes instead.

The cause is multi factoral, the solution needs to be multi faceted as well.

Sorry for the rant.

Unfortunately as the population increases your going to see more and more. If the chances of someone going crazy and doing that are one in a million and your population increases from 10 million to 20 million then you have doubled the number of people who will go crazy and do something like that will increase proportionally.
I'm betting we will see more anti laws passed as well which won't help any more than all the previous. My small town country school brought in someone for a hunters safety class, and in history class one of the teachers brought in various rifles from an old black powder to an M16 and shot blanks for us to 7th grade when we shot .22's in gym class. Of course the teachers all ran over to help me thinking this smallest kid in the class couldn't hold a rifle so I had to explain to them I was just turning it on its side comparing the bolt action to my semi auto at home not having trouble holding it. Then he county consolidated us to a big school where guns weren't talked about and my senior year a girl got show and killed at her boyfriends house when her ex shot at her current and missed. Then I move to the city and my wife's school taught her than guns are bad and they had regular shootings where she had to duck and run when one happened in the hallway she was in. I find it ironic how those laws have the opposite effect. IMHO there should be a field trip to a shooting range should be required with a safety class showing some damage from accidental shootings so the studnets can see what a gun can really do and get a little respect.

I worry there are no armed and trained teachers to defend the students. It is an undefended, target rich environment.

There are no mass shootings at gun shows.

More guns, less crime!

Craig, you're absolutely right on.

It worries me becuase it is becoming a trend. I have to question how many of these individuals would have had selected a school if they hadn't been prompted by the media coverage to do so. It's all a question of advertising.

While "shoot up a school" is a far cry from "drink Miller not Bud" or "Chevy not Ford", the effects of advertising are pretty simple to understand. And people who are "emotionally disturbed" (aka, nuts) usually want to fit in, and media, particularly the instant, no thinking required gratification of TV, helps to define what is "in", what is "cool". So if all the cool psychos are shooting up schools, guess what, the looser psychos are going to do it to to be just as cool.

The way the "news" is handling these is just sickening. They've gone past being obscene. Unless it's local to you, it isn't really news, I'm sorry, ten dead kids really isn't, and the families should be allowed to mourn. And the intrusiveness is just... "pornographic" is the best adjective I can come up with, like a socially acceptable snuff film. Look, unless you were family or a friend, you don't need to be at the funeral; if you have a satellite uplink and a camera crew, you really don't need to be there.

I know that's just my two cents. If it was my kid's funeral, news crews would be buried right next to them. There would be no politely worded request, or order, to leave. So let's call it two cents and shovel.

Just look at the "big picture". School age children are more likely to be hit by lightning that shot at school. Millions of children go to school every day & nothing happens.

I agree. I have always thought that one thing that might help is if we--or more specifically the media--stop giving these losers their 15 minutes of fame. Report on the shootings of course, but do not identify the shooters by name and definately do not post any pictures of them. But of course these shootings are cash cows for the media, so good luck getting them to comply. Ratings are more important than kids anyway.

Another in agreement here. The media publicity just fans the fires of other psychopaths.

This is just another reminder of why I don't have cable or watch much TV. Mainstream media has gone to the dogs. Or maybe it has always been that way, since the time of Hearst and the Spanish-American War, and probably before.

Before. At least now, with multiple new services able to give near realtime reports, they have to at least not make stuff up. Sure, they spin and slant, but but two hundred years ago, they just sometimes invented the news rather than choosing what to not cover.

Maybe this is a partial answer to your ``what is the world becoming nowadays'' question:

So far as I know, everyone who has shot up a school in the U.S. was a product of a U.S. public school. They were educated and socialized there, sometimes in the very school they shot up, and they never internalized any reason not to murder.

I think that we shouldn't be looking to school or to government to solve this problem: they seem to be the cause.

That statement could take other causes such as "culture" and "bad parenting" completely out of the loop though. Research a little on those factors when it comes to the perps -- you usually find something.

Sort of a conclusion to this whole sad story.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06279/727826-85.stm

My high school had a fatal shooting the year after I graduated, long before Columbine. My younger brother was within 200 feet of the two armed students when one opened fire, wounding a teacher and an assistant principal and killing another assistant principal. You bet your ass I worry about school shootings.

The recent incidents of adults invading schools is very disturbing because of the copycat factor. Our school system has really stepped up their lockdown drills and we've had at least two lockdowns of multiple schools in the past week because of crimes near schools.

Please check the numbers: school shootings in the US have been on a steady decline. Any loss of life is regretible, but the instant media makes it sound as if it is a very big problem. There have always been the mentally deranged and it is vertually impossible to prevent the occassional incident like the recent spate of shootings.

"There is nothing so frightening as ignorance in action."

I can recall some certain moronic individuals bringing pipe bombs, etc. to school one day in high school. I also recall certain kids wearing long trenchcoats, be them "goths" or otherwise. And I remember still others passing out copies of the "Anarchist's Cookbook". This was all years before Columbine.

It all comes full circle to parents. Kids will always be kids and get into a little bit of trouble, but parents have got to step up to the plate. And society, too, with deeming what is acceptable and what is not.

Having run through the worst case scenarios with both daughters, I reckon that I am less concerned about them becoming helpless victims. Still, I have to say that as yet we have not seen even the tip of the iceberg insofar as what could be done at a school. Either because the assailants are not really interested so much in inflicting real harm, or they are just incompetents (as was the case with the Columbine crowd), the casualty rate for armed incursion and assault in our schools is insignificant relative to the potential. It is a fact that armed incursion with the intent to inflict maximum casualties in a school environment is quite a plausible concept. Even solo, a properly and easily equipped assailant could really break the hearts of a community, with casualty counts perhaps in the hundreds before being neutralized. Multiple assailants could put that number into the thousands, in a matter of minutes, long before any law enforcement response of sufficient capability could do anything about it. To cite a cliche, we ain't seen nuthin' yet.

As for arming teachers, there's been talk of that too lately. Two things I find infeasible about that concept. First, a person's career does not necessarily qualify them as a candidate for carrying or using a firearm. Most teachers I've encountered do not possess the correct disposition to warrant arming them under any conditions. My other concern is that protecting students from harm is not in the job description, and should not be. I pay good money for the right people to do that job, and if they can't because of whatever bureaucratic reason, then I will be inclined to spend my money on facilities that are properly manned. I would not want a cop teaching my kid algebra either.

There are solutions to this situation, but first folks are gonna have to come to terms with the harsh reality that we live in, and give up the illusions. I witnessed firsthand what reality for schoolkids was in Baghdad. You gotta have some cajones to take your kid to public school there, and yet it is working. We ought to be taking some notes.

Have you been in a school that is locked down, or know someone who has who also has a tactical sense?

The best analogy that I can think of is a killing stall. Group the targets in one place, practically in a plie, same place in every room, with no way out until a shotgun slug blows the lock apart.

I don't think the cause is any one thing. Personally, I don't think the public school system is worth anything, but it's not just that, or there would be an endless stream of school shootings.

I think it's probably the schools PLUS the poor parenting PLUS the culture. The poor parenting and the culture are probably also products of the poor schooling, but few would even consider that.

People don't want the teachers armed, but I think if the teachers themselves (individually) are comfortable with the idea, why not let them? And if the schools don't want that, they can hire professional armed guards. But they wouldn't do that. Schools and sensible choices don't go together. Schools are basically in the business of making money; the safety and education of the kids aren't exactly the main issues.

Sue

FWIW I used to drive for a large school district in SLC and one day as I pulled into the school to drop off elementary kids and pick up new ones we were met by the local police dept. and quickly escorted into the school and was quickly placed into lock down, not the most pleasant of days but we were told that a guy had robbed a store two blocks from the school and everybody was on the lookout for this guy, parents were told that their kids were safely locked inside the school w/ police at every exit, so there was no way this clown was getting in. He was caught about a mile north of the school hiding in his own house (caught by video tape, known crook) We were let go after an hour and a half of being inside the school

the whole "school lockdown" think bugs me - if your parents are there - it THEIR choice - I'll be dammed if my kids are ever locked down and I decide it's time for them to leave - they WILL be leaving.. I may have an APB put on my right afterward, but you damed well better believe that if I decide they are better off OUT, they WILL be out, or I'll be dead trying

Three days ago, a young man was arrested at a local high school with a .380 automatic in his backpack. While his intent hasn't be made public, I suspect that the vigilance of a fellow student and the decisive action of school administration and local law enforcement officers averted another tragedy. According to local media reports, this student had a decreased mental capacity and had been bullied recently by several upper classmen. Additionally, the father was arrested and charged with failure to secure a firearm, a felony in North Carolina.

"Schools are in the business of making money."

Susan, I'm not sure I follow that logic. I'd love to see a public school that makes money.

if the school knew about the bullying and did nothing to stop it.. They would be equally at fault.

No kidding on that!!!
Every year we have to supply more and more at my kids school. Now every student has to bring 3 boxes of klenex, 3 bottles of glue, and a myriad of other things. I'm just waiting on the year that they have to bring their own toilt paper

" I'd love to see a public school that makes money. "

I don't mean in the sense that they turn a profit. Check out your local school district and find out where the money goes. ALL of the money. Does over half of it go for administration?

By the 1960s, over a hundred studies had been made to determine the best way to teach kids to learn. One hundred percent of the studies showed pure phonics did the job. Zero percent showed the current see/say methods worked. The schools said the tests were 'flawed'. ALL the tests were flawed. They continued to 'teach' by methods proven not to work. They gradually pretended to include 'some' phonics, and call it the 'combined method'. It doesn't work either. This sounds stupid, doesn't it?

But there's a method to their madness. Every time they've got a student who can't seem to learn, they can label him/her as 'learning disabled', and get more federal tax dollars to 'fix' the problem. Nothing changes, but the money rolls in.

I'm sure you've heard of the 'no child left behind' program. The schools produce children who really are being left behind educationally, and now get more money for producing them. And the money rolls in.

The schools can collect income from Medicaid, as they can have their special ed teachers file claims for providing 'medical services'. They aren't really providing medical services, it's just a matter of a couple of teachers talking about students, but Medicaid is billed just the same, and the dollars roll in.

The last time I checked my property tax bill, 55% of it went to the schools. And that's just property taxes. They get it from lots of other places, too. It simply rolls in from knee-jerk reactions because 'it's for the kids'. Well, it's not for the kids. They don't give a rat's patootie about the kids. It's about the money.

Sue

Wait now, I remember a song when I was in grade school sung to the Battle Hymn of the Republic.

My eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school
We tortured all the teachers and we broke all the rules
We hung the secretary and we shot the principle
Our troops go marching on

People have always sung songs about how much they hate school. It comes from frustration over having discipline imposed on your life. Both the disciple of having to follow set rules that take away your individuality and the disciple of being told when to be where, what to do, turn in homework. Do they contribute to violence, does it get worse when they are put on the radio instead of snickered at during recess? Its hard to tell. But blaming music and video games or television instead of holding people responcible for their actions is irresponsible, just like having video games or television or even teachers raise your kids for you. Whether or not we have freewill or not is a question for the philosophers, but freewill or no, people need to take responcibility for there actions or responcibility needs to be placed on them if they won't accept it themselves.
Adulthood keeps getting pushed further and further back. Hold people responcible as adults at fifteen and they'll act like adults at fifteen.

On February 11, 1988 Jason Harless and Jason McCoy entered Pinellas Park (FL) High School across the street from my middle school. They were armed with handguns. Jason Harless shot Assistant Pricipal Richard Allen point blank in the head killing him instantly. Two other students were wounded. Both survived. My middle school was locked down for hours while they search for Jason McCoy.

School Violence 1927-Present

The football field and a atheletic invitational are named in his honor.

I believe the only reason this is a "big thing" is because we are a more connected society these days and the 1 in 1,000,000 incidents make the headlines and seem like it's an everyday thing. A high school student is more likely to die due to traffic related injuries than a bullet (some jurisdictions excluded... ). In my high school there was roughly 3 students per year that died from things like traffic accidents, health problems, and violence (rare).

It won't matter whether it is handguns, knives, or fists. Violence will always be present in our schools. The best sure fire way to prepare for it is to teach our kids how to react appropriately to any threat or instance of violence.

I agree. In fact, I think it is way past the time to abolish public schools altogether. It has become more of a self serving institution full of bureaucracy and incompetence that is becoming a tremendous burden to our society and our economy.

Consider the idea of actually incentivizing private schools to be competitive economically and academically. What a concept!!! As for ensuring they turn out quality graduates, what's so difficult about having a cert test for prospective private school grads, oh wait, they're doing that now in public schools aren't they, so I guess there'd be no difference. In fact, you could have a graduated testing process for different levels of competency, oh wait, they're doing that in public schools now, too.

Gee, then what would be the difference. I suppose if a private school doesn't graduate certified students, then they could be penalized somehow. Now that would certainly be different from the slap on the wrist that failing public schools get today wouldn't it. Yeah, there are penalties out there for public schools that don't "make the grade", but it is a wet noodle that has little, if any real impact on improving the program.

Then maybe you could do something tangible about school safety.

Until that time, we are stuck with incompetent administrators running obsolete programs with an egotistical and condescending staff that is all being grossly overpaid for their services. I realize this may not be comprehensive, but it is typical, therefore appropriate.

I have yet to meet a teacher in a public school that I could fully trust with a loaded weapon. I know they are out there, but I've not come across any. Most seem like "knowitalls" who increasingly offer up more opinion than substance in the classroom. In fact, trying to teach hunter safety/education to public teachers is at least as difficult as teaching it to 8 and 9 year olds.

That's been my experience anyways.

A family member happens to be a teacher. There is definitely no shortage of the "WTF" stories. You wouldn't believe what some schools are spending your tax dollars on. As far as teachers being overpaid; maybe in some areas. But I can speak with certainty that the teacher I know is not. Now the administration, that's another matter! Mucho buckos... $$$

Where it gets really interesting is with those special programs. And assistants. And translators. And parents demanding certain treatment. And, well, you get the idea...

I agree, no teacher should be armed. That's the equivalent of giving a bunch of college ethics professors a deadly weapon. Heck, they literally can't figure out how to lock and unlock a door. But that's another story... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oy, enough already with the flogging of the public school system and its graduates, please. We're not all spectacular failures just because our parents couldn't afford to send us to private school. I turned out alright, and was able to find my way into a prestigious college amongst the wealthy products of the private school system, only I was there on scholarships.

I would love to find out where exactly these overpaid teachers can be found, so I can get a teaching certificate and move there! I always thought that in the US, finding a rich teacher was as rare as finding a poor doctor.

And I just don't see how closing a public school or denying any funding would improve the situation. The people who will feel the hurt the most are the poor kids. The lousy teachers can always find jobs elsewhere, and the wealthy parents can pay to send their mediocre kids to a private school, but the poorer families have nothing else to rely on.

Yeah, -but theres still No Excuse for Jonesboros, Columbines, etc etc etc etc etc.

"Columbine"!?, -I still have a Like and Love for the *Pre*-Columbine Meaning of the Term! -The Flower, that is! Now we got to Drag around this newer, Debased Meaning, -too! Well I'll "Keep the Lovely Flower Up!" All the Same and Nevertheless!....

Its just another area Symptomatic of the considerably Rotted side of our Society etc!

As people like to say with Politics, -Throw the Bums Out! In this sense, -maybe we should just do away with having schools altogether!, for awhile. To Save and Spare ourselves, -as well as the multitude of "Students" who really don't want to Learn, -all the Heartache and Trouble now Rife!

Then, -when they get out in Real Life and the Adult World, -and find out they don't know their Times Tables, -or how to Add or Subtract, -or even how to Read, -or that Washington DC is our Nation's Capital, -etc etc etc. -Maybe then they'll Finally Start Getting Wise! And Finally want to Learn some!

Lets step back into a Time Machine, -and bring back some of those old 1800s Stricto Schoolmasters! I'm not actually Serious about that, -But am all the same I'm Filled with its Spirit!
-I'd just Love to do that piece of Table Turning!,...!

Regarding and "Contrary" to the above, -I Love and Value a lot of the "Softer, New Stuff", -in Educational Techniques etc, that have come out over the last number of decades. Not all now, but many.

But all too many Students, Teachers, Administrators, School Systems, Boards, etc, -have "Abused the Hospitality"! So some Return to something a la the 1800s might be in Order!....

And again, as I've said, -the Shock Treatment of just Dropping the whole Schooling Bag altogether! "You guys don't want to Learn!, -Then Don't! -Sink or Swim!"....

As with Airline Pilots, -Teachers also should have the option of being Armed! And Sure they should be Up and Able to Responsably Exercise such too!

How bout Random, Surprise Strip Searches of Students, -for Weapons, Drugs, and other Contraband, too?! Tuff Times call for Tuff Measures. They Dislike and Don't Want such, -then they can kindly Refrain from Abusing the Hospitality! To begin with.

In my own Experience, -We were Light Years from things like Columbine! Twas Unheard of! As recently as even the 60s! the 70s and such now were Rife enuff with Drugs, -but Columbines and the like even then were ever so Remote!

And this recent "Picking on the Amish", -who never had anything to do with anyone here or their Gripes!, -This only takes old Ultra Lows down to new Such!!!. At least kindly Leave NON-Involvees Alone! And OUT of it!!!

Parochial and Private Schools, as well as Home Schooling, -Vastly do Not seem to have these Problems! In one System , -this more Private one, -the Students Really Want to Learn!, -the Teachers Really Want to Teach, -in the other (with various Exceptions sprinkled thruout), -they Don't!

Its again Societal and Symtomatic. Too Many Students really Don't want to Learn! Too Many Teachers really Don't want to Teach! I'm Sick of them all! Too many of these Students would frankly rather do all sorts of Fun and Bad Stuff! And really don't want to even do whats often just a little bit of Buckling Down, -to Learn! If they'd be as Eager about Learning!, -as they are about the latest Rap Artist, or "New Drug", or something!,...-Then they might Educationally and Academically Get Somewhere!

Also in my own Personal Experience, -though Thank God Years Outside of and Beyond our nowadays often Ultra Sorry Educational System!, -I beleive I came within a few hours of sitting in that McDonalds that Baumhammers shot up, -several years ago. Being White, -I in all Great Likelihood would have been among the victims! This might not be School. But its still the same "UltraSorry and Symtomatic Society"!

"School Police"! (Sneering Chuckles from me now, -though it could well be among the Tuff Measures I now advocate, -here in Today's particular Times and Circumstances), -We Never had!, nor ever Heard of such a thing!, -Back in my Day!,.... [color:"black"] [/color] [email]0311[/email]

I Differ and Disagree with Most of what the Phelps Sisters, of that Church of theirs, Advocate.

Though I do Agree with them that there is considerable Moral Rot and such, in our Society! (Though not neccessarily in all the same ways as do they!). And that the "Divinity in Charge", I think is considerably Displeased! He *Differs* with those inclined toward their same Gender, -but Contrary to what their Group Holds, -he does Not Hate them! Be all this preceeding so and as it may!...

...Thats still No Cause, Excuse, or Reason for they to so Intrude on Another, Entirely NON-Involved One's, -Funeral! (or other Affairs). I'm referring of course to the Amish. As well as our Returning Iraqi War Dead. They of this Group really of course, -should Leave Both sets of Funerals entirely Alone! Here I'm in Entire and Complete Agreement with you there!, Ironraven. And I Ardently "Second your Motion"! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]ironraven[/email]

As to the Population Increase effect, -Yes. But I wonder if other Countries, -say China with 4 or 5 times our population, -I wonder if they have the same Problem!

Some other Countries and Societies *don't have* our Underlying Cause or Problem, -and some others may have Better Ways of Dealing With, Preventing, and Addressing this. To the extent they even do have such Problem or Matter.

In China's case, -their Authoritative, PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. System, -(Wrong and all in its own ways, -but thats another matter), -probably has a lot to do with such Prevention.

And though their Society if "Let Loose" would have its Share of Crime and Violence, -They additionally may not be as innately Trigger Happy to start with, as we!

So "Pure Population" effects, -I'd say are Far from the Sole Precipitating Cause! "Internal Societal Factors", -I'd say Far More are!

Our particular Western Culture (Others in our Camp do *Not* Share this Dubious Distinction with us!), -just leans Too Far over to the "Shoot First, Ask Questions Later!, end of it all! (where they even Deign to do the Thinking and Questioning Part at all!).

But Yes, -all these aforementioned factors of mine being so, -with U.S. specifically, -if you Increase our Population, -You get a cooresponding Increase in our Shootings and other Crime, -however Otherwise it may be caused.

And as I like to say, -"Crime is Grime!" [color:"black"] [/color] [email]Eugene[/email]

No!, -Too much Softness, -promotes their Pandora's Box of Horrors! Not too much Authoritarianism! In this Day and Age that we find ourselves in!, -Are you Kidding!?....

And I am old enuff to remember the now seemingly Tame Alice Cooper Song. I Agree with your Assessment there! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]martinfocazio[/email]

Yeah, -but the "Rebellion" of *our* Day -and Today, -are Miles and Miles Apart! In both Nature and Degree!

Also, -I think our Day's "Rebellion" was more over Dis-Interest and Boredom concerning School, -as well as many Students *not* being all that Rah Rah Rah over Learning! -Than over the Disciplinary side of things. Or at least just as much so. Buy *not* over Discipline alone. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]AROTC[/email]

Yes, -as in the Society at large, -"When you Outlaw Guns, -Only Outlaws will have Guns!"

In this sense, -I could think that if anyone at all wrongly brings Guns and other Weaponry to School, (I'm referring to the Punks that regularly do now, -not the Decent Others!), -then the "Decent Majority" of the Student Body, -should also be able to!

But at one and the same time, -the Scholastic Environment is No Place for Arms for anyone, -to begin with!

And there's also the whole matter of their "Juniority" and Juvenility. There'd certainly have to be a Lower Age Limit "Floor" here. (And again some Juvenile Punks would Violate that!,...).

School Security, and perhaps also Teachers as well, -can be permitted to have Arms, however. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]Malpaso[/email]

Woops, -I've just seen your Warning now, -after entering several posts (not neccessarily in Violation of what you mention).

I'm just letting you know now, -that I've seen and gotten your Message. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]martinfocazio[/email]

I don't understand why these guys can't shoot themselves first and spare the rest of us.

The rebellion of yeasteryear is very much the same as when I was in highschool (less then half a decade ago) and the rebellion of today. A couple of decades ago Pink Floyd was playing Another Brick in the Wall "We don't need no education, we don't need no self-control" and starts with the sound of helicopters flying over head a strong reference to Vietnam and distrust of leaders sending young men off to die. Alice Cooper's Schools Out was in 1972. Almost thirty-five years ago. People have been sing "My Eyes have seen the Glory of the Burning of the School" since my dad was in school. He graduated in the '60's.

But my point was you don't rebel against the "man" by capping half a dozen of your school mates. They may justify it that way (I don't know that I have ever heard that as an excuse) but the reality is school shootings are perpetrated by sick individuals or individuals who have never had to face responcibility for their actions. The mental health facilities aren't/can't do the job we need them to do. And it's been such a long time since the role models for children took responcibility for their actions, that the children don't know how. You can't have self-discipline until you've had external discipline. But as another poster pointed out, school shootings are actually on the decline (this spat non-withstanding) while the news has become more entertainment then information. Show video of shootings over and over, follow the families to the funeral in your satellite truck. People tune in to see that, they buy news papers when that's on the cover. It's irresponcible, its despicable but the money roles in. Don't blame the current crop of teenagers (two of the shooters recently have been middle aged) for the sickness in our society; punish them for their individual transgressions but don't blame them for the underlying causes.

Oh, I'm not against the graduates so much, but the process they go through.

As far as I'm concerned, any teacher that doesn't get the job done is overpaid. I have yet to meet a teacher worth $30,000 a year plus benefits. Most ought to be making minimum wage for the effort they put into their work.

But more to the point. I don't consider a university education to be any improvement over most Jr. High Schools. I took so many comprehensive tests in 8th grade that said my english and math skills were the same as a sophomore in college, and I had to laugh. I was a mediocre student at best, and when I got to college, I maintained a 3.9 gpa right up to the day they abolished my major and sent me packing. That's okay I suppose, since I went out and made a career where I get to sit and tell engineers and business managers what to do all day, and they pay me plenty to do it. It's called gumption, and it is what is lacking in the public schools system, both primary and secondary.

And what's with this mandatory "Liberal Arts" classes that college students have to take in order to get a degree? The only use I see for it is to pay the tenure on literature profs so they have a reason for being there. If I want to learn how to design a rocket, why do I need to learn shakespeare to do it? Of course, the explanation I get is that it makes the graduates a more complete citizen. HOGWASH.

As for the poor kids, yeah, well, when I got my walking papers at 18, my folks were doing pretty well too, but at 18 I am supposed to be responsible for my own welfare, so why on earth should my financial aid qualification be based on how much someone else makes who is no longer responsible for me? All that did was keep me from getting into college for three years until I could prove that I had been destitute long enough on my own that I now qualified. Going to college ought to be based on whether the student merits the opportunity or not. I'm weary of seeing kids in college barely able to eek out a 3.0 gpa but having their entire expenses covered because of affirmative action programs, which I am paying for. There were certainly plenty of them there when I attended. I don't see why the same philosophy shouldn't be applied to primary school system.

If we could wean the school system off the welfare program and turn it into a business that didn't have to compete with government subsidized substandard programs, the tune would certainly change, and for the better from all I've seen. Then you could start employing teachers based on their actual job performance, just like most of the rest of us are, and start making all the money I've been forced to invest in public education actually have some value.

The public school system, just like the Postal service, the ACOE and many other programs, all provide strong evidence that government has no business running a business, and that if there is a private sector equivalent, then the government has the duty to dissolve it's function in that area. Oversight is one thing, but funding and operations, the government is the least qualified.