Defending Preparation Stockpiles - Legal/Political

This may be too philosophical, or political to post here, but its a question I have had, and is best for lawyers and politicians, but it's a concern I have. Please read all the way through before replying, if you feel the need.

I am the type of person that likes to help people, unfortunately a disaster poses a unique situation. I've taken the time to prepare, and others have not. While the "Ant and the Grasshopper" story is cool, it only has 1 grasshopper. Not 10,20,30,50 grasshoppers stopping by food. So, in a disaster, its probably best to keep supplies to yourself and those you care about.

Anyway getting to the point. I have not heard any stories, so I don't know if it has ever happenend, but there are definately people that have not prepared. What if these people come and demand your supplies with force, or implied force? Are you permitted to defend your supplies? I think ethically, yes, in a disaster situation. Those supplies are designed to meet your needs and no one elses.

I've done a little research, but there is nothing written that explicitly handles this provision. In Florida, statue 776.013 addresses the use of force, and apparently if your supplies are in your "dwelling" (which includes tents that you will sleep in), you can defend them (Not a lawyer, go look it up yourself, and get your own legal counsel)

Okay, great, I can defend my supplies (in my opinion...). What happens if an "official" comes up and requests supplies for himself? Does the state law prevent him from doing that? Defending your supplies against a "police officer", for example, in a disaster isn't probably very wise. Another case of no absolute answer.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't help people, but it gets to a point where you have to save yourself, and the way the laws are now (i.e. subject to interpretation), you choice isn't very clear.

This probably isn't a big deal in the big scheme of things, but if you've taken the time to prepare, and someone demands your stuff, do you just give it up, hope to survive and avoid jail?

I'm going to contact my representatives to see what can be done to clarify. Maybe making such clear statements would encourage others to prepare.

If you think that this is a problem, perhaps you should contact your local and state representatives.

If you feel the need to discuss, then keep it civil.

I’m sure you’ve already considered most, if not all, of my points.

It seems to me that situational circumstances, e.g. an ongoing disaster, wouldn’t modify existing laws governing self defense or protection of property. Either you have justifiable cause, or you don’t. Of course, much depends on the level of force exerted by the perpetrator and vice-versa. Obviously, there’s a difference between a forceful “No!” from you vs. displaying (or using) a firearm. Absent lethal force by a would-be food-snatcher, I don’t think a defense of “he wanted to take my food” would be a good defense against serious charges brought against you.

As disgusting as looters and other unsavory characters can be during a disaster, I can’t imagine that their protections under the law from an over-zealous homeowner would be any more, or less, than pre-disaster.

Practically speaking, the trauma and expense of defending one’s actions (whether right or wrong) in the legal system post-disaster can’t be disregarded. On the other hand, I'm not suggesting either that one merely rollover and relinquish gear/food etc. Guess I'm saying, consider consequences before acting.

As has been suggested in past threads, I think the prudent course of action is to minimize as much as possible the likelihood of facing these kinds of decisions, by keeping your level of preparedness to yourself, and selectively sharing only with those you trust implicitly.

Not that I’d ever be mistaken for an attorney, but for the record…I’m not.

Did I miss something? My supplies do not include a neon arrow to rival the Vegas strip with the legend ' survival suplies here' above it periodically shorting out when I shut down the generator. Just like the various knife legallity queries the operating word is DISCRETION.

I agree with Chris, keep your supplies as discreet as possible. Never flaunt what you have, especially in times of need or emergency. But, if you are threatened, then a show of force is warranted. Almost always, a show of force is all it takes to protect yourself and your possessions. Being prepared means being prepared for every possibility.

Thanks, you guys have filled in the blanks, and Chris, that was a great visual description of your neon sign... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It just seemed to me that there was no special provision for supplies, after thinking some more, someone cannot threaten your supplies, without threatening you anyway.

From the cases I've seen anyone using force to defend their supplies is very likely to be made an example of by the justice system.

There is somewhat of an agenda to prevent citizens from 'hoarding' and being vigilantes. So don't get caught.

-NIM

NIM, what cases are those?

It's a good question and one that I have often wondered about myself. I think that actual scenario that most folks will be dealing with is exactly the scenario that happened in NO..but on a larger scale.

For example, we have all heard of the "paid for" buses that were confiscated by federal authorities, and there are several reports of citizens being ordered here or there..but the scary thing is that while America has slumbered there are a number of Executive Orders that cover the very thing we fear...and they give incredible power to organizations such as FEMA.

So you really have to ask yourself a question like...when a FEMA rep comes to you and says...we are confiscating your 4x4 truck to use in emergency operations...what do you do? and yes, there is an Executive order to cover "hoarding"..Executive Order 10998 that was eventually rolled into EO 11051. While neither of these specifically authorizes the gov't to confiscate anything...a smart person can read between the lines. I don't want this to turn political, but the Constitution is pretty clear regarding the right to keep and bear arms...but you see how it has been turned and twisted.

Here is a link to a pretty good summary of the EO's that are out there, but this is by no means a definitive list...just one that concentrates on the discussion at hand. Interesting reading.

Link to EO Summary

In my opinion, defending your supplies from citizen looters really comes down to the laws in your state. If you are allowed to defend your home/vehicle and not required to retreat, then I think you are on safe ground in doing so.

Defending them against public officials is much more problematical. If you give them up and the official's actions are later found to be unlawful/unconstitutional, the most you will get is the monetary value of the goods. If you resist and are injured or killed you or your heirs may not even get that. Think about it: is anyone aware of any legal justification for threatening and/or using deadly force against a police officer who is acting in an official capacity and in good faith? I think it would be foolhardy at best.

As others have mentioned, keep 'em hidden. (Although even that might not be enough if you are being forcibly evacuated... <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />)

Regards, Vince

P.S.: I don't know about you but I'd be leery of bringing up the subject with my representatives. They seem to delight in doing foolish things for the public good, and might just "clarify" our right to stockpile supplies right out of existance.

I remember seeing armed men by signs that said:

You loot we shoot!

I was told but have never checked it out that in NV you are not aloud to refuse a request for water nor are you aloud to charge for it. I would say in a SHTF emergency use the force nessary but be ready to provide a quick burial of the evendence. Discretiopn is probably the best action.

I received divine guidance on this matter last night. I really did! One of our cults came to the door again. In the past I've used physical force, overwhelming theological debating skills and finally opening the door naked with my cowboy hat and boots on. So I'm standing there coughing my head off as this stuntman for Mel Gibson's Passion is asking about some latino dayworker named jesus and if I know him. I finally say "I'm sorry, I've got a VERY contagious disease, somebody must have stolen my state quarantine sign. " He bolted through the sprinklers and God didn't part the waters either. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> So, make up official looking department of health quarantine signs with some dreadfull sounding disease and post them the minute marauding evacuees start pouring past your home. If you know jesus, have him translate it into spanish too <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Chris, I think you have indeed received divine guidance. It's a brilliant idea. The more official looking the signs are the better they'll work. I'd still back it up with some fire power though. If things get scary, there's nothing like the "kachunk - kachunk" sound of a pump shotgun to make your point. You don't have to fire a shot, just let them know that you're prepared to defend yourself and your posessions.

I shoot mostly double guns, but sometimes I haul out the old Winchester 97 just to hear that wonderful kachunk sound.

1) So what you're saying is NV has no real bottled water market, since water can't be sold?

2) If you ever needed to use justifiable deadly force to defend yourself or your property, burying the evidence probably woudn't work in your favor during the grand jury inquiry. It's a felony, you know...

How do you mean "what cases are those'?

Sorry about the link...to get to the EO summary, click on Miscellaneous on the left hand side.

I like to help also, but my family comes first. If someone in an official capacity demanded my supplies, I am not sure how they would legally get them without a court order. Disaster or not the constitutional right to search, and seizure still holds. If forced I would probably respond with look, if I have something extra you amy have it, and I will get it to you. If pushed beyond taking care of my families needs, I would hope that I could get word outside of the containment area, and preferably to a media source. I would hope that I would never have to defend myself in this way, but I would rather live to face a jury (or die with my story known) than to watch my family perish because I let some ordained individual on a power high relieve my family of life supporting items.

How would all these theoretical officials even know you have anything?

Sue

WE've reiterated this point on a few different threads now, so let's repeat the mantra that we've developed.

Don't advertise that you are equipped to survive. Keep your supplies hidden and well secured. Be prepared to defend yourself and your property, as is your constitutional right.

Unless you hand it over, no one has the right to come into your home and seize property you are legally entitled to own and possess. No one. Not for any reason. Regulatory takings must be adjudicated and warranted prior to the action. This gives you foreknowledge of the intended confiscation, allowing you some opportunity to relocate, if possible. Worst case scenario, they come to take my stuff, they find it either a pile of ashes, mixed with something nasty, or otherwise rendered useless. If I am gonna share, it will be up to me, or no one gets it. It's almost as bad as them spending my money for me, oh wait, they're already doing that, aren't they?

If they don't know it is there, why would they think of asking you for it?

Why is it I feel like I am in a Mel Gibson movie?

At the very least, get a reciept. Last time I checked , "conspicously sotckpiled" items could be seized by the government, but compensation after the emergency was required. Of course you have to go to court to get your refund, and then you have judge say if you were hoarding or not.

But the same case law also says that they can not deprive you of items you need for your own survival.

The best analogy I can think of has to do with evacuation. If you are the ONLY person in a 14 person van, I would say that it would be fair to have you and your rig drafted to take out 10 or so people who have no vehicle of their own, and thier supplies. But as if I had space in my rig (four door, older sedan, and I'm single) for two people, and thier car was dead in traffic, 1) it goes out of traffic, and 2) they go in my backseat with thier critical supplies. The best entertainment example of what I'm trying to say is the old couple with the dead car in "Day of the Comet" (wow, that dates me, I rememebr watching that when it aired).

Something like this + add your favorite state/dept of health logo !

I can understand your thinking on the idea of getting a receipt, but my perspective is that if things are bad enough that the local establishment is looking for things to take, then I am not sure I can trust their judgement that they won't decide to take something I might need. The implication is that during a time of crisis, they would even care what my rights to survival might be. They may decide summarily that, because I didn't voluntarily share when I had the chance, or because I disagree with them about what I can and cannot live without, they will simply take it all. I am sorry, I cannot take the chance that some well intentioned but biased LEO will decide in my favor. They can ask, but they cannot demand.

Likewise, with the vehicle, I have room in my rig for 6 people plus supplies. So if, while my wife and I are on the way down to my daughter's school to pick her and some of her closest friends (who've called me daddy for 15 or more years) up on the way to the cabin, some LEO again decides that I need to take him and his girlfriend and her mom 15 miles out of town in the other direction because I have the room, I am afraid a confrontation is inevitable at that point. It has to be "not unless I say so", or else what's the point of even trying? I am more than willing to share some of my hard earned and planned for resources, depending on the situation. I share a lot of my excesses (and a few of my necessities sometimes). I don't mind going out of my way to help others I think need and deserve help. I would hope that if I got in a pinch, there are folks out there who would do likewise for me, if I asked nicely. I guess if I get really desperate, I might try to take something from someone else, but likely if they have it and I don't, they are probably better prepared at protecting it than I am at taking it from them. I expect that.

Trying to legislate survival during crisis is like telling a fire to quit burning.

I'm not thinking of the surface roads as a place for vehicles to be checked, but on the interstate. Besides, I can't understand not having plans which involve a coworker or neighbor or relative- I think it was Ayers who said it was a team sport. And IF I'm bugging, it is to a shelter, I'd just as soon have someone with me who I can trust at my back.

As for you points about having materials "drafted", I agree, but I also know that if you really try to stand your ground, you (a) arrested, or (b) shot. Neither one of them is a very good option in an emergency. Asking for a receipt gives you a paper trail for later. Besides, be discrete- part of that is having a lot of flashy junk out front sometimes, with the good stuff better hidden.

In my state (NY), police officers can do anything necessary to protect lives. Example: escaping armed criminal runs into your house. The officer can enter & search for the man but may only look in places large enough to conceal a person. No search warrent is required, and the officer is responsible for his actions.

A lot of these replies have been enlightening... and not all for the better, the subject matter just doesn't leave room for a "comfortable, touchy-feely answer" that most folks can wrap their heads around, and come away saying " yeah, that's OK". My own oppinion (that I'll state at this point in time) is that if it's meant for me & mine, that's the way it ought to stay... I thought ahead, I baught, bartered, 'n scrounged, I saved... in short, I planned ahead... MY STUFF IS MINE!!! to share or keep, as I see fit, but the key to it is, as Chris has already REPEATEDLY stated, keep your business, YOUR business, maintain a low profile, and cover yer donkey... and if the day ever comes that you have to maintain possession by force, then by all means, don't leave any witnesses.

Shoot straight... shoot first, there's only one winner.

Troy

P.S. I just hope I make it down to the Islands before it comes to that in this neck 'o th' woods... have a great day, all.

I was just thinking that it might not hurt to have some "decoy goods" in an obvious place, and your main supply in a less obvious place. Or places.

"Well... if you really need them.... I guess we can give you HALF..."

When I was a kid, my parents bought a place that had an invisible closet in the entry. It looked like a panelled wall with no opening, unless you knew where to push, then it opened.

Walls usually have studs of 2x4s, which can hold most canned goods comfortably. Maybe a sliding panel to cover?

There's nothing wrong with being sneaky... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sue

Sue

Excellent response, that's the spirit!!! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In tangent to the decoy approach, I like the aversion principle. You won't find a whole lotta people willing to go into the swamp to look for boodle. If you make it appear risky, they will avoid it altogether.

Don't get me wrong, the decoy idea is nice, but I would rather not encourage anyone to come a knocking, they may think that there's more to be had if they press the issue.

Think Addams family. Sure they had it all, but who wanted any of it?

Just some thoughts, but…

Money is nothing more then a “paper trust”; an alternative to bartering, it represents an acceptable way for individuals, etc. to engage in commerce, be it for hard goods or services. We trust that the money will allow us to purchase some item(s) or service(s) and that the person accepting the cash can then use it in kind.

Is there any real difference between stockpiling/hording supplies vs. money?

If, I have $1,000 on me (which I am not using at the moment) and some needy person comes up to me and asks me to “share” my money with him/her and I refuse, is this hording?

If the same person then attempts to use force (steal) to “acquire” some or all of that money is this any real difference then someone trying to use force to “access” my supplies?

Can someone with just a credit card (has the means) force me to provide them with cash, because they did not have the forethought to carry cash and the store, etc. will only accept cash?

Can the government, etc. force me to give up cash I may not be using at the moment, if they are experiencing a shortage and decide they need it more then I do?

Can a wealthy person be forced to give up that “hoard” of cash they have been saving to provide medical care to an individual facing a life-threatening event?

Should Credit Card companies be allowed to charge 15-20+%(could be viewed as price gouging/profiteering) interest to borrow their money?

Whenever someone wants to regulate or force regulations for the “greater good” we should be wary of motive and impact. This is not to say, it is not of benefit or value or that it should not be done, but it must be viewed with caution.

I believe, when we as individuals/families/communities, etc. rise to the occasion with services or goods freely given to others in need we reflect all of the positive values of a “civilized” world. When taken by force (legal or physical) we are headed down a very dangerous road.

Pete

Yes. They're doing it right now. When they print money, they decrease the value of every dollar already in circulation. The fed printing money is what causes price inflation. The result of which is that money you currently have in the bank buys less tomorrow than it would have yesterday. It's a very stealthy tax, but the effects are real.



Well, duh. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And any other services that will help reelect a politician. The government knows much better than you what to do with all that money you have. Hand it over, Citizen.

The real difference between stock piling and hoarding is not one of definition, or timing, but perspective. Those who had the smarts to make hay while the sun was shining call it stock piling. The idiots who have nothing to eat will call it hoarding.

Wow. Hurricanes make me cranky. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here here, for you and Pete!!!

I am tired of having my pockets picked, being told it's for the greater good, then watch the pile just disappear into the ether.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one on this page. I was starting to wonder.

you're not the only one Ben, there are lots of us

Along this line of thinking, I wonder how many bodies were found in NO with bullet holes in them were chalked up to "victims of Katrina"?
gino

Post deleted by UTAlumnus

Spoken like a true... ahh, never mind.

Knee jerk reaction from dealing with a couple of aquaintances.

Yeah... we all have those kind of days, I'm currently stuck with some rental properties and bad tennants that make me want to... well, you know.

Hang in there,

Troy

I was thinking the same as Susan, (Decoying it), -but she and you have now mentioned it first.

I would add your Caveat and Caution however.

Also, I'd add that any such reasonably visible decoying, -be done only in the event, -that your Stockpiling and Preparation, -comes to "Be in the Know"!

It only takes a few such Outsiders for such to become "in the Know", -perhaps as few as One.

And then there is the whole *Unknown* Grey Area, -of Not knowing if your in anyone's such "Know" or not.

All in All though, -I'd go along the track that you, Susan, and I here mention.

Stockpiling, Hoarding, and etc. It's all a part of our very "Stock and Trade", -here in our Survival and Preparedness Mindset and World. So many other Fields and Occupations of Life have theirs, -Here we so have one of ours. "Hoarding" therefore, -is Far from neccessarily, -Always a Bad Thing! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]benjammin[/email]