Bug-in stove?

Most of the food I have around here (dry pasta, rice) requires cooking. I'm wondering what to do about a stove for when the power/gas is out. Basic goals:

1) It shouldn't use much storage space (I'm in a small apt). It doesn't have to be backpacking-tiny, just not huge. OTOH it should be big enough to hold a large pot for cooking pasta.

2) It shouldn't be unsafe to keep at home (gasoline scares me for this) and shouldn't require attention in storage (like adding fuel stabilizer). On the other hand, a multifuel stove CAPABLE of using gasoline could be useful.

3) It shouldn't cost too much.

Obvious candidates and their disadvantages:

1) Propane camp stove: the stove and a large propane bottle ends up pretty bulky.

2) MSR Whisperlight multifuel or equivalent: expensive, needs volatile fuel at home. OTOH I've always wanted a decent camp stove.

3) Solid fuel (Esbit) stove: fuel degrades, needs lots of stored fuel, the ones I've seen might not hold a 4 qt pot too well. OTOH they're cheap. Maybe this is worth looking into.

4) Alcohol stove: I've seen the tiny ones like you make from a soda can. Are there bigger ones that don't cost too much?

Thanks for suggestions and I wonder what the rest of you are doing for this. MRE's aren't that good a solution for 7-10 days; they take too much space, they're expensive, and if I had them at home I'd probably just use them when I'm too lazy to cook something.

This should do. http://www.csun.edu/~mjurey/penny.html# The wood burner can also use Lump coal. You can also use Dry Gas, High octane Booze <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Personally I like Kerosene.... a 1 gallon jug will last a long time in a stove, and provides a little warmth while in use.

My personal favorite is here: Kerosene stove Look for the 10 wick butterfly model... that way replacement wicks can be gotten from any decent string mop. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Information on prepping, using, caring and storing your stove can be found here: Breaking in Appliances --- Just ignore some of the politically motivated stuff if you don't agree with it <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Kerosene is also useful for heaters....

Do Coleman stoves still run on high octane unleaded gasoline?

If you are worried about storage space, consider the small brother of the larger Coleman camp stoves, the Coleman One Burner Duel Fuel Stove

It uses both Coleman fuel and unleaded gasoline, though I'd suggest you stick with Colman fuel which won't gum up the works as much as unleaded gasoline. This stove isn't a backpacking stove. Instead it is just a down-sized version of the big green suitcase type stoves. Mine came with a real nice plastic carrying case too.

While a lot of people out there like propane stoves, I just don't care for them. I find the Coleman gas stoves provide better flame management and higher heat. Besides, one gallon of Coleman fuel will last a long long time and its available at just about any hardware or department store (Target, Walmart, Kmart, ...).

Outside magazine has a nice overview of stove options…

http://outside.away.com/outside/outsidestore/goverview/BG_STOVE.html

…along with comments by the “Gear Guy” on alcohol stoves in particular:

http://outside.away.com/outside/gear/gearguy/200208/20020805.html

http://outside.away.com/outside/gear/gearguy/200303/20030331.html

I know you said you are space limited, but I would re-consider ruling-out space for a regular gas grill. For the first 15 years of my marriage, my wife and I lived in apartments, not one bigger than 720 sq.ft., and in that time we always had a gas grill outside (regardless of the floor we lived on, first, second, or third) with one exception. That exception was when we lived for a year in a high-rise apartment building in the Washington, D.C. area (we were on the 13th floor of all things). If you’re in that situation, I understand not wanting to fuss with a full-sized grill.

Last year we lost electricity multiple times due to hurricanes, once for a few minutes shy of 72 hours (we were one of the lucky ones to get electricity back on so quick). During that time I used both my white-gas stove (MSR WhisperLite, 1980s vintage) and an iso-butane stove (MSR Rapidfire, 1990s vintage), mostly for grins because we have a Weber grill outside. I tried to teach my young son about priming a white-gas stove, but he was wisely keeping his distance. That business of priming a white-gas stove really puts people off, understandably so. I’ve never owned a Coleman white-gas stove, so I don’t know how that gets primed, but I doubt it’s much more pleasant than with an MSR. Flare-ups are the result of not priming correctly. These can be exciting if you’re too close.

Also, white gas stoves generally don’t simmer well (not a big deal with boiling pasta; a much bigger deal with cooking rice). You’ll get better simmer performance if you put a burner plate underneath the pot (e.g., I use a Backpacker Pantry Scorch Buster from REI). You can also get them to simmer better if you don’t pump too much pressure into the fuel bottle.

Having said all of this, if I were in your shoes I’d buy a Coleman propane stove with two burner units and not look back. I think there are good reasons RVs and other camping vehicles are all equipped with propane stoves: safety, ease-of-use, cleanliness.

Thanks, that Coleman dual fuel stove looks very promising. What's the deal about storing fuel for it? They always say you can't store gasoline for more than a few months, and even adding stabilizers doesn't help that much. Is there a "shelf life" specified for Coleman fuel (=white gas?)? What do you do with it after it passes expiration? Can you use it in your car? Do you really feel comfortable storing a gallon of what amounts to gasoline at home indoors? I'd hate if the cans let out any fumes, both from a health/odor point of view and from a safety standpoint.

Re propane: it's not out of the question but I'm -really- short on space. 720 square feet is huge compared to this place (small studio, maybe 250 sq ft). I do like the ability to simmer since I buy rice in 25 pound sacks so there's always lots of it around here. Cooking stuff like that also requires a lot of fuel, which takes even more space, especially for propane.

The dual fuel stove doesn't look built to support much weight (8 qt pot full of rice and water, say), but I guess I could put some bricks on either side of it to hold the pot up.

Is there a "shelf life" specified for Coleman fuel (=white gas?)?
“An un-opened container of Coleman Fuel stored in a dry area with no rapid extreme changes in temperature will remain viable for five to seven years. An opened container stored in the same area will remain viable for up to two years though will be at its best if used within a year. Coleman Propane Cylinders can be stored indefinitely in a dry area. The propane fuel inside the cylinder will not break down.” Yes, Coleman Fuel and white gas are one and the same.

What do you do with it after it passes expiration?
I take stuff like that to my city’s hazmat disposal center.

Can you use it in your car?
“Coleman fuel is basically petroleum naphtha with a bit of rust inhibitor. It has an octane rating of 50 to 55 and none of the additives found in gasoline. It has a lighter molecular weight than gasoline, kerosene and diesel fuel and cannot be used as a substitute for any of those fuels. The flammability of Coleman Fuel is comparable to gasoline but it cannot be used in gasoline engines. It will burn out the valves.”

Do you really feel comfortable storing a gallon of what amounts to gasoline at home indoors?
My wife will not permit a gallon can of gasoline inside the house, and I can’t say I disagree with her. She is okay with a small, 11oz MSR fuel bottle of white gas inside the house, though. If you’re going to store white gas inside, I would keep it inside MSR fuel bottles. They are much better made than a Coleman gas can and I trust the MSR bottles to not leak. After all, they’re made to be put under pressure and not leak. Of course, MSR fuel bottles aren’t cheap, but then we’re talking about gasoline inside a home. A couple of 33oz bottles is about a ½ gallon. I can’t imagine needing more than that and you could probably be quite happy with a single 33oz bottle.

If you do decide on the white-gas route, I’d go with the MSR WhisperLite. I’ve had mine for 20 years and it’s still a dependable little blast furnace.

p.s. The quoted material above is direct from Coleman.

Two years on an open can may very well be the official time they want you to use it by but let me assure you it will last much longer than that if stored carefully. I have used Coleman fuel that was very old (8-10 years) with out any problems. I use Nalgene or MSR type fuel storage bottles so once I open a gallon it is stored in aftermarket fuel bottles and I have never had to dispose of any of my old fuel!!
I keep careful track of fuel age by marking the cans with the date they were bought and using the oldest fuel first. But that and good storage will make it last a very long time.

Great information on the Coleman fuel.

Paul R, maybe you can find a friend with a garage who would be willing to store the fuel can??

So far I have a two-burner white gas Coleman stove, the single burner white gas Coleman stove, a propane double-burner Colman stove, and a WhisperLite backpacking stove.

I just got the propane stove last spring and have been rather unimpressed with it so far. Not enough heat and much harder to regulate a simmer than I expected.

While the WhisperLite is a fine VERY COMPACT backpacking stove, it is MUCH more complicated to start. You have to put some kind of priming substance in the priming cup and light it in order to provide sufficient heat to atomize the fuel and provide a good burn. For a long time I carried a small bottle of alcohol and that worked OK, but kind of a pain. Some let a bit of liquid fuel flow into the priming cup and then light that, but it takes some practice and does generate a bit of soot on the stove. Others have suggested using fire paste.

The benefit of the one and two-burner Coleman stoves is that their special generators don't require priming, so they have MUCH easier lighting. I'm not sure if the smaller Coleman backpacking stoves have similar generators.

The other well-known characteristic with the WhisperLite is its inability to provide good simmer control. It tends to be a blowtorch or almost nothing.

The one-burner Colman stove has none of these issues, though it is defintely heavier and bigger.

The larger two-burner Coleman stoves and the one-burner little brother actually do provide very good simmer control. I"ve used them for years and they do quite well.

On the other hand, as I've said here, I was really surprized how much problem I had regulating the two-burner propane stove. I won't give up yet, but it wasn't as easy as my faithfull white-gas Coleman two-burner.

It is the white gas backpacking stoves that are notorious for having very poor simmering control. I think it is mostly because of the relatively small size of the fuel tank - it is hard to maintain a constant fuel pressure. I don't recall having that problem with the one-burner Coleman stove.

<< WARNING MODE ON >>

By the way, never ever use these stove indoors without adequate ventilation. Even if you think you have adequate venilation, I'd recommend you have a carbon monoxide detector in the area.

<< WARNING MODE OFF >>

Thanks, this is very informative. I like the idea of the dual fuel Coleman stove somewhat better than the Whisperlight for this purpose, because of simmering, easy starting, etc. A few further questions:

1) Suppose I buy a can of Coleman fuel, open it and pour it into MSR bottles. Does that count as opening the container, reducing the shelf life?

2) Coleman fuel is available in cans like 1 pint or 1 quart, right? Is there a good reason to buy gallon cans beyond saving a couple bucks? MSR bottles are around 10 bucks each, so needing several of them jacks up the cost of this scheme noticably. Is it really safer to open a 1 quart (or pint) Coleman can and pour it into an MSR bottle, than to just leave it in the Coleman can? I don't feel I'd want to keep enormous amounts of white gas on hand. Part of the attraction of the dual fuel stove is being able to resort to auto fuel if I run out of white gas.

3) How does the heat output of these things compare with a normal kitchen stovetop burner? Maybe I want to cook large batches of stuff, involving boiling 4-8 quarts of water in a large pot. Feasible?

4) Can I store and/or transport the Coleman stove with fuel in it? If not, how do I get the unused fuel out? Do I pour it back in the MSR bottle somehow?

Re carbon monoxide: I expected I'd be using the stove outdoors, or at any rate next to an open window.

The kerosene stove with the 10 wicks also seems nice. It's cheap and it seems to me that nothing can go wrong with it.

I know you mentioned not wanting a tiny backpacking stove, but for the price the MSR "Pocket Rocket" is a great little stove ($29-$39). As far as space, it folds up into a small plastic storage box. No problems with storing white gas or regular gasoline; it uses screw-on fuel (Lindel valve) canisters instead.

I'll second the idea to be very careful about ventilating properly.

I wouldn't consider using a camp stove anywhere indoors, even "next to an open window". Same thing goes for "...in the garage, with the garage door open". There's no guarantee that carbon monoxide will drift out of the open window. I was just reading a news article on the Rita death toll--the bodies of five people were discovered in a Beaumont apartment. It was CO poisoning from a generator. Granted, running a generator for hours is different from a small camping stove, but this guy probably thought he was smart by opening a window, too. Beware, CO can take a long time to be eliminated from the bloodstream, so it can build up after repeated exposure, which is highly likely during a disaster. Be safe, use the stove outside.

What Arney said ... it is really best to keep it outside.

Don't worry too much about the fuel's shelf life. I've used fuel that is approaching 10 years of age and it works fine and hasn't gummed up the stoves. The thing that damages most stoves I've seen is the gunk that splattered on the stove which can lead to rust. If you clean the stove with a soapy towel after each use it will last a long long time.

I would suspect the reason Coleman distinguishes between opened and unopened is that they cannot guarantee that a opened container has resealed correctly. My advice would be to protect the spout and lid after opening, and wipe off the spout with a towel before putting the cap back on. If it is treated well and not left open too long it should have the same shelf life as an unopened can.

I have never seen Coleman fuel in anything but gallon containers, so I can't comment on other sizes. Get the gallon container and don't worry too much. They are dirt cheap. They are reasonably easy to handle with a good funnel. I don't see much, if any, benefit to transferring the fuel to small aluminum containers if the seal on the original can is not damaged.

Do as suggested before. Buy a gallon of Coleman fuel, mark it clearly with the purchase date, and then use it directly from the original container. Though it is certainly not as safe as storing the fuel outdoors or in a detached building, I have stored my fuel in basements and attached garages for years with no incidents.

A Coleman stove running at full open is hotter than my propane range I have in my house, but not as hot as electric stoves I've had before. Its been a long time since I've used natural gas with a home range, so I can't comment on that.

Yes, you can leave the unused fuel in the stove. If the stove will remain unused for a long time (years) then I'd probably try to burn off the fuel to empty the tank. Have a weenie and corn boil or something to use up the fuel. Don't waste or risk contaminating fuel by pouring it back into the original container.

Having never used a kerosene stove, I'm curious how well they work. It seems that they'd stink a bit and that there might be a soot issue. Wasn't that the big advantage of the Coleman lanterns when compared to the kerosene lanterns??

One last thing: If you have the room to store a two-burner stove, then I would definitely suggest you go that route. They have lots of advantages over any one-burner stove. The lid and side screens act as wind blocks, which greatly improve fuel consumption and decrease cooking time - wind screens are usually recommended even with little backpacking stoves. The two-burner stove has a much bigger fuel tank, which means less fuel pouring and more consistent fuel pressure. Finally, the two-burner stoves have, well, two burners. Which means you can cook food on one burner while heating the coffee or wash water with the other. They are also MUCH more stable with large pans/pots - almost impossible to tip over, though I've actually seen one get knocked over in scouts - luckily it wasn't lit at the time.

Also, when lighting any stove make sure you light it VERY soon after turning on the fuel. I've seen many stoves blow or flare up become the dopey user turned on the fuel and THEN started looking for the matches. The same thing can happen on a home range or barbecue too though.

Kerosene stoves, just like kerosene space heaters, do not really soot or stink if they are properly seasoned before use and used correctly.... the primary causes of sooting or smell are because either the wick is carbonized and/or out of adjustment (heaters) or someone blew out the flame instead of letting it go out on its own by just turning it down.... using it in a windy area would cause those issues too since it would be just like someone blowing out the flame.... that is the only time I have ever had a kerosene heater stink or soot. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

One last consideration... while ventilation is important, think about this.... kerosene heaters were MADE to be used indoors... what does it say on the side of your radiant propane heater? <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

True, but all appliances that burn fuel produce some CO--some appliances and some fuels produce more than others. Your propane water heater, your natural gas stove, your charcoal barbecue, they all do. A kerosene space heater may not produce much CO, but they are often left on for hours and hours. A slow build up of CO is insidious and will likely be harder to recognize than a sudden build up that quickly makes you nauseous and gives you a headache. Don't get me wrong, I have grown up with kerosene heaters and have fond memories of feeling that radiant heat on my face, but like any fuel-burning appliance, you need to take some precautions.

I just did a quick Google search and found a hazard that I had not thought of--asphyxiation. I've always thought that CO is the biggest danger of kerosene heaters, but apparently so is asphyxiation. In a small or enclosed space, the heater consumes all the oxygen. The lack of oxygen itself can kill you. In addition, less oxygen means inefficient combustion, which leads to increased production of CO, which also can kill you. The combo of CO poisoning plus lack of oxygen is probably especially lethal. But lack of oxygen isn't the only cause of inefficient combustion. Like tmiller116 mentioned, a carbonized or out of adjustment wick could do it. Or if the glass globe (what do call that?) is ajar. These conditions also lead to inefficient combustion and higher than normal CO.

Regarding a kerosene heater and CO, I would say:
* make sure it is in good working condition
* don't use them in an enclosed room
* always make sure there's a source of fresh air (crack an outside window an inch)
* don't fall asleep with one on
* have a CO detector

Of course, there are the additional warnings to keep it away from flammable objects and to always refuel it outside, after it has cooled.

>> wouldn't consider using a camp stove anywhere indoors, even "next to an open window". Same thing goes for "...in the garage, with the garage door open". There's no guarantee that carbon monoxide will drift out of the open window.<<

My countrary opinion from a region where 99% of us cook with natural gas or LPG:

1. CO rapidly homogenizes with the atmosphere; it very very rarely concentrates more tham momentarily, usually only because of sustained thermal stratification (like a house fire).

2. What is the difference between using a gas home appliance (stove or oven) and using a gas or naptha stove indoors? FIRE!!! There is a slightly greater danger of fire, so keep an extinguisher handy. The CO danger is about the same. This certainly applies in a house that already uses natural gas or LPG for the stove & oven.

I suppose that if one has a home that was expressly designed super-tight and with electric-only cooking appliances, there is an elevated risk. Those tend to be "sick" houses already, though, with extremely poor indoor air quality. A tight house designed to use an enthalpy exchanger for good indoor air quality (they are still not the dominant design in the USA) will become a "sick" house in fairly short order when the power is off, regardless of running a stove. In a house of that design, open some windows when the power is off, regardless - air quality goes to heck in less than 24 hours in most of those houses. With some windows open, we're back to an adequate ventilation scheme to run a camp stove. See fire danger in #2.

So it depends on your house. Keep a good fire extinguisher handy and a CO detector is cheap insurance. Learn the stove operation and quirks outside, then move the operation inside and repeat. Be conscious of countertops - many stoves can get hot enough on the bottom to scorch a countertop. Putting the stove on a small scrap of wall board, edged and covered with foil ductwork tape for aesthetics is a fool-proof way to avoid beatings-by-wife. Improvise something else if need be. But try it all out before you need it.

HTH,

Tom

Tom, point taken. Reading through a bunch of different threads at one time, I'm getting a bit mixed up between stoves vs heaters vs generators, propane vs kerosene vs other fuels. Yes, in general, using a propane camping stove for cooking is pretty safe, as far as CO is concerned, even indoors. But once you start using fuels like gasoline, or running kerosene space heaters for long periods of time, the risk of CO is going to go up.

I just ran across an article about two campers who recently died of CO poisoning from a propane lantern in their tent (apparently not suicide according to the ME), so even propane can kill by CO poisoning in circumstances that seem pretty safe at first glance.

Similarly, I ran across another article that describes a number of generator-related deaths/injuries in Florida recently. Unlike the recently reported deaths of 5 people in Beaumont, Texas, where a generator was run in the apartment, this article describes two separate incidents where the generators were actually sitting outside the homes and yet the CO made its way back into the homes. In one case, authorities theorize that a breeze blew the generator exhaust through an open sliding glass door. In the other case, the generator was inadvertently turned towards the home during late night refueling, and the CO made its way under a mobile home and probably seeped up through the floor.

I know, I'm off talking about lanterns and generators now. Sorry. But don't take that CO lightly! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Arney,

Your points on safety and potential problems are well stated and noted. However, we have used a kerosene heater in our home for the past 20+ years. We even sleep with it, while it runs at night. We have an older home, so drafts are ever present and we have both CO detectors and fire extinguishes ready and available. None of our CO detectors have ever activated. We keep one right by the heater, one near the bedrooms and one in the kitchen.

Regular maintenance, using the correct fuel and taking reasonable safety precautions should allow most homeowners to use one safely.

Pete

That guy does not know ANYTHING about alcohol stoves!!!
He says that they are not presurized... Well some aren't and some are... And some are 'sort' of presurized...
He also makes it sound like the coke can stoves are just a container, that you fill with alcohol and light!!!
Well, some are, but most have at least two chambers, where you light the open one, but as soon as it heats up, the alcohol starts boiling in the second chamber, and the vapor rushes through a lot of little holes(or slits) either around the open portion, or around the outside of the stove, while the center goes out... This produces a burner that looks exactally like the one one a natural gas stove...
You can make one with NOTHING but a knife and a coke can!!!
We made some at work one day, and they work great!
Some of the instructions you will find on the internet are very involved, but they are usually for ones that look like a commercial stove, when you are finished.

Seeped UP through the floor... <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> W.T.F.
CO is HEAVER than air... That is one of the things that makes it so dangerous in a fire, when people are crawling to get out of the smoke! And, also because of that, it tends to pool in low areas...
That must have been SOME FEAKE occurance, for the CO to go UP into a mobile home!!!

One thing about stoves... Some of them are tested withOUT pots on them... When you put a pot on some of them, the CO production SKYROCKETS, sometimes as much(or more) than 4 times!!!

Stoves......

Must...... control...... self.......

Nah.

Paulr, old buddy, I have hust one word for you: Trangia . I swear by the little buggers.

See this post I did a while back on stoves, and this post I did on mess kits.

Currently, my kit is two US Army canteen cups with a Trangia Solo stove, a windscreen/stand I made from another canteen cup, and a "Natick" stove/stand (which becomes a heat screen extension for the homemade windscreen/stand when the cup is used). With my setup, I can boil about 2/3 litre of water in just over 5 minutes. If I need more than boiling capacity, or need to cook something up, I bring along the larger tin from a British mess kit. If someone can house the images, I will be happy to post pictures of the setup.

Hope this helps.

.....CLIFF

Just wondering, but wouldn't heated exhaust rise in the presence of cooler ambient air? I mean, when I lived in NYC, I seem to recall the occasional CO poisoning in apartments from a faulty boiler down in the basement. So, if a portable generator is pumping out hot exhuast under a raised mobile home, wouldn't it be possible for the CO to rise because it's warmer than the surrounding air? Or is CO heavy enough to generally trump thermal effects? Like I said, just pondering the hypothetical.

CO is close enough to the density of air to not matter (about 0.93 or thereabouts, off the top of my head ). Thermal stratification is pretty transient unless the space is confined and the heat source continues to pump energy into the stratified zone.

What is probably a much more significant transport mechanism in a confined space under a factory home is the partial pressure of CO and other combustion products is greater in the confined space and therefore CO will seek entry into the home (and outside) until the concentrations are nearly equal.

Except for structural fires, the main mechanism for CO to move is partial pressure differences. Sort of like entropy... heat flows to cold, high things seek low places, high CO concentrations seek low CO concentrations...

HTH

Tom

I have a portable gas grill, its called a grill 2 go but there are other brands that make similar. Since its a regular grill and not a campstove it is disguised rather well, you can say you use it for tailgate parties at the game (which is what it was designed for anyway) and no one will ever know.
Mine runs off of 1lb propane and I have an adapter hose to connect to the 20lb ones. 1lb of propane will last 6-8 meals for my wife and I or cooking a large meal for about 100 people (once it gets up to temp, you can turn the flame all the way down and it still stays at cooking temp so its very efficient) for family reunions. We throw it in the truck a couple time a year, stop at same and pick up some big packs of hamburger and go to the park cook for the whole (big) family.