Taurus destroying Smith & Wesson, Clintons fault!

Went on the Taurus firearms site yesterday and was blown away by the new products they are coming out with.

Triad 4" 9mm/.38/.357 stainless steel revolver with target sights and a ported barrel.

Colt Peacemaker copies called "Gaucho" in pistol cartridges and one that shoots .410 shells.

Pump action rifles with external hammers in .32 H&R magnum, .38/357, and .45 long Colt pistol calibers.

Lever action rifles currently in .22 but expected to expand in cartridge availability.

The only bad news I found on their site is that they are discontinueing the pump action, external hammer, .22 magnum, Winchester Model 62A copies.

I own an original Winchester Model 62A .22 rifle which does not have a disconnector on the firing mechanism. I can hold the trigger back and pump out shots as fast as I can work the pump. Not the most accurate way to shoot, but much more likely to hit a rabbit running at full tilt than a pump action which has a disconnector in the trigger.

Does anyone on this forum own a Taurus .22 pump, and do you know if it incorporates a trigger disconnector or don't you know because you have never tried it?

Bountyhunter

Bounty, A. Clintons been out of office for a few weeks. B. We have an administration supposedly supportive of the firearms industry. C. Smith and Wesson quality and innovation stagnated about the time they decided crush fit barrels and actions with the finesse of a safe door were marketable. My Smiths have 5 screws or I don't even look at them. Pumping a hammer Winchester will eventually break things. My 1897 riotgun came broken this way, cheap price, but broken.

Chris:

I know Clinton's out but that little fiasco that Smith & Wesson signed with his administration started a civilian backlash that is still in progress despite new ownership, the NRA's blessings to the new ownership, lifetime warranty to the original retail purchaser, and my local gun dealers pushing Smith & Wesson over Taurus.

Taurus used to be a South American Smith & Wesson wannabe, but they learned very quickly to go with quality, innovation, variety, and a lifetime warranty on their firearms even if you were not the original retail buyer. They even offered to let Smith & Wesson license their locking safety system in order to comply with approaching Federal requirements which S&W has not thus far responded to.

I understand that a shotgun for heavy duty use such as a riot gun with the accompanying pressures and recoil of a 12 gauge could shake and break things, but the way the 62A is built and the light recoil of a .22 makes it hard to believe I will ever break it.

Gotta love a company with that much faith in themselves and their products.

Bountyhunter

The Triad also handles the .38 Super ACP caliber.

Bountyhunter

Theres an old irish phrase " Old unhappy, half forgotten things" I didn't understand it until I watched an orangeman and a PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. get into it in of all places a sushi bar in Little Tokyo Los Angeles on the anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne. I yelled at them both in my best John Wayne imitation " Can't a man eat his california roll anywhere without you lace curtain commandoes spoiling my wasabe with Belfast confetti?" In spite of my families PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. background, I was always reminded we came here for a reason, and my anglican priest in private school taught me his irish history. History is important. But we are supposed to move on. So, from the sun setting over cinqo de mayo day parties and drivebye shootings in East L.A. and masses for Bobby Sands by the california celtic twilight lairds- let slick willie fade away. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I can't wait until I can afford the Titanium revolver they make!

I too thought S&W was going the way of Colt. Then I saw a Model 29-8 blued Mountain Gun and had to have it. It's true the barrel is crush fit, but the bluing is beautiful and after a few hundred dry-fires the action is typical Smith and Wesson smooth. It's accurate too.

Regards, Vince

I had a 340PD Ti revolver from SW. 10oz is great. Easy to carry even in a pair of gym shorts. The problem with it was (I sold it after a couple months) that I have knives that are more accurate at greater distances than that thing! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If you want to hit the broad side of a barn at 36 inches then the Ti snubbies are the way to go. For anything more accurate find another firearm. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The old SW snubbies were far more accurate.

[edit]
By the way: My comment about being able to hit the broad side of a barn at 36 inches was referring to using 38s in it. If you load it with 357s then to need to be within 6 inches. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Martinfocazio:

I don't know about your part of the country, but my local gun store sells Taurus products for quite a bit less than the suggested price on their website.

For example, Rossi's, which is a subsidary of Taurus were selling for $269.00 for a 2 inch .357 magnum.

Bountyhunter

Chris, if I could only spell eloquent corectly, I'd say you were Truely Eloquent in the sushi place <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />. The John Wayne is a nice touch.

Dave

Brian:

Back when Charter Arms first came on the scene with their lightweight Undercover .38, I purchased one. One day while shooting at one of the indoor ranges, I happened to find myself shooting against a couple of Police Detectives. One of them was using an S&W Chief's Special snubbie, and the other was using a Colt Detective Special snubbie. We were all using lead 158 grain service loads at 50 feet, and my targets were printing a lot better that theirs. None of our shots were off the paper and the groups were pretty tight considering the 2 inch barrel lengths. We did a little gun switching and they both printed better targets shooting the Charter Arms than they did with their personal snubbies. The Chief's Special was nice and light, but I preferred the Colt Detective Special because of the way the handle fit my hand and the extra weight kept felt recoil down.

That Undercover .38 was the gun I sold with the upside down holster I miss so much for revolver carry. I never bought another Charter Arms after that and was disappointed to hear that they were getting a bad rap for quality in their later products. The finish of their products was not great, but the one I had, the mechanics and the accuracy of the gun were great.

I hope Taurus never takes the downward spiral so many gun manufacturers seem to be accused of in the quality of their products.

Bountyhunter

Anyone:

Please explain crush fit.

I keep seeing an unsupported frozen pressed in barrel without so much as a pin through the frame to hold the barrel in place.

What are modern Smith's lacking that was better with the 5 screw models, and what did the 5 screws hold?

Thanks!

Bountyhunter

These days I only shoot jacketed rounds through any/all of my guns. I like them to much to put lead through the bbls.

S&W barrels were threaded in and retained with a crosspin. Current barrels are merely threaded in with sloppier tolerances under greater pressure. This saves manufacturing time and costs. It also creates a distorted throat that can affect bullet accuracy. The swing out cylinder family of S&W first came with 5 frame screws securing the sideplate and cylinder yoke to the frame. Then they were reduced to 4 and finally 3 to reduce costs along with the barrel retaining pin. Earlier prewar pieces also have the 'long action' and higher hammer spur. Shooters complained about this and got a shorter locktime and lowered hammer. The irony is the older action is actually prefered by some shooters for accuracy and control. Aside from collectability, the screws are merely a signpost of production dates. A 5 screw is truly a handfitted firearm. The later 4 and earlier 3 screws still show good craftsmanship up until the bean counters and lawyers got involved. I owned a model 10 prewar with 6" barrel. I sold it to a good friend working with an armoured car service. He was so broke I loaned it to him to qualify for firearm carry. He shot a perfect score, as his Alabama grandfather would have expected and went to work carrying my handloaded 200 grain super police rounds ( another anachronism.) They got ambushed the first week. He put disabling rounds in both assailants before they had the shotguns on him <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Thats why I count my Smith screws so I don't <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Brian:

Lead bullets were cheaper and with a 2 inch snubbie, cleaning was a breeze. Lead is softer than copper, so I don't see how lead would damage your guns if you clean them regularly.

Bountyhunter

"Lead is softer than copper, so I don't see how lead would damage your guns if you clean them regularly."

Paradoxically, if you shoot more lead than copper it is possible to end up with more bore wear than if you shoot jacketed. That's because of all the scrubbing that goes on to remove the leading. Jacketed bullets merely require a soaking of a copper solvent like Hoppe's Benchrest #9. A lot of people get too zealous with the brush. Not me of course... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As far as crushed vs. pinned barrels go, I can't tell the difference in accuracy between my pinned Model 66 and my 29-8. But to be fair I'm not all that much of a hotshot with my revolvers anyway. I'm a lot more confident with my 45.

Regards, Vince

Leading can be reduced by using gaschecks on cast bullets and of course breaking in a new barrel properly reduces lead wash. Corbin reloading sells a hi tech machining cleaner consisting of micron small glass beads in an emulsified liquid.The cleaning process is mechanical vs chemical. The beads are physically compressed betwen the swab and barrel and literally scrape everything that didn't come from the factory. Excessive leading of a barrel is usually the result of to soft a alloy and higher velocities than the slug can handle without stripping in the lands. Aside from accuracy loss, you will slowly build up pressures that replicate stiff loads and reliability loss. The famous Bill Jordan explained this at a gunshow to a priveledged small audience ( me and 2 others) stating even the famed Model 27 could be locked up with some of the excessively stiff .357 loads in it's early days. Makes you wish we could cary dueling swords again, doesn't it <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Norad45:

I've heard quite a few horror stories about severe lead build up that requires massive brushing, but have never experienced it myself. I guess I don't shoot that much.

My personal defense ammunition is .38 semi-jacketed hollow point, .45 fmj 230 gr., .22 magnum 60 gr Federal copper bullets, and .22 long rifle hyper velocity 35 gr hollow point copper coated, and .25 fmj.

Bountyhunter

Chris:

No it doesn't.

Bountyhunter

In addition to the problem of leading caused by bullets which are too soft for the velocity that was covered in Chris K's excellent response, leading in handgun barrels can be due to other causes. Rough bores will abrade lead from the bullet depositing it onto the rifling. It is eventually ironed into the barrel with each successive shot through the barrel.

Leading can also result from using a bullet which is too hard to expand under the pressure of the gas from the burning gunpowder. That prevent the bullet from obturating the gas which then pushes past the bullet. The heat from the gas burns off lead from the bullet and fuses it onto the bore. That leading will also be ironed into the bore with successive shots through it.

IIRC, leading towards the front of the barrel indicates a bullet which is too soft for the velocity generated by the load; and leading at the rear of the barrel indicates a bullet which is too hard to expand the bullet to obturate bore from the pressurized gas.

I use mainly lead bullets in target shooting. My low to medium powered loads are exclusively with lead bullets. I shoot jacketed bullets only in the higher powered loads. I normally have very little trouble with leading from my established loads.

Good luck,

John

My pistols seem to like straight wheelweights with a little tin added. The minimal amount of leading that I get can easily be removed with a chore boy wrapped around a cleaning brush.

I hate to think of a load that could lock up a Model 27. A buddy of mine has the plain-jane version model 28 and it is one stout revolver. I guess there weren't as many lawyers around back then <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Regards, Vince

IMHO copper is about a million times easier to completely remove from the barrel than lead. Granted on a on 2" snubbing with typical rifling it's not so bad but on many other types of firearms removing lead is a major pain. Barrel length and type of rifling of course are the major factors in how hard it is to remove debris but overall copper is easier to remove on any firearm. Yes, lead is softer than copper which is exactly the problem. The way I understand it, that is the reason why lead leaves behind 10 times more debris than copper to begin with.

Brian,

I don't question what your experience has been, but mine is quite different than yours.

I fire many thousands of rounds a year that use lead alloy bullets. Some are plain base and some are gas checked. I have never had problems with lead build-up; what little there is cleans out as easy or easier than copper fouling (I don't normally use the same solvent for copper as I do for lead unless I'm anticipating needing to clean afield, in which case I use an effective multi-purpose bore cleaner). Typically the velocities are relatively high. Several hundred of these regularly fired lead bullet rounds are fired through rifles ranging from 6.5mm to 458 at velocities over 2,000 fps and a little higher (depending on caliber). Bullet designs are all to suit me, with some having as few as one lube grove and some Loveren-designed with more grease grooves than I care to count. Again, I have never experienced leading.

Over the years I have seen badly leaded pistols and helped clean some of them. Hot loads with swaged bullets (soft alloy) were the most frequent culprit and swaged half-jacketed bullets were the other culprit (also hot loads and also soft lead)

I either cast my own or use commercial hard cast bullets, depending on my whim, how the stockpile is, and how much time I have available to reload. I only use fairly hard lead alloys, regardless. I have not found any bullet lube clearly superior to any other in any aspect and normally just use an ordinary Alox bullet lube.

I also shoot plenty of jacketed bullets - plain and moly - in all the calibers and firearms that I use cast bullets in. There are some cautions I could mention, but frankly, shooting moly coated bullets (I do my own coating) thru a moly-conditioned bore is the most effortless cleaning imaginable in my experience - not to mention seriously extending the interval between accuracy-driven cleanings when I'm putting several hundred rounds thru a rifle in one day. YMMV, and there are some potential downsides to moly bullets.

I'm suggesting that jacketed vs cast is not really a polarizing question with black and white answers.

Regards,

Tom

Unfortunately, my gun buying budget is in the sub $100 range right now...and there's three purchases on the horizon...in this order:

1. A .357 Taurus revolver for my wife.
2. A Beretta CX4 in 9mm
3. Another Remington 870, 18" barrel and all that.

But that's more than $100, sadly. I'm working an extra job to save up for them.

FWIW - Glock is pretty darn clear - use ONLY jacketed ammo in a glock. I also have gone only to jacketed, makes cleaning easier and faster.

Martin,

Thanks for reminding us of an important point. Unjacketed bullets should not be shot in guns with polygonal rifling. They are susceptible to heavy leading and consequent catastrophically heavy pressures. AFAIK, Glock, and Heckler & Kock are the only pistol manufacturers using polygonal rifling instead of the conventional groves and lands.

I suspect a lot of us with only conventionally rifled pistols tend to forget about that limitation.

John

Johnbaker:

I thought polygonal rifling was a smoother process than button, broach, or hammer barreled rifling.

Why would it be more prone to lead build up unless the rifling is not gripping the bullets and the bullets are skidding down the bore?

If that is the case, than the bullets are not gettiing a good spin imparted on them for better flight stability.

Bountyhunter

Bounty,

That's a great question, but I really don't know the reason why lead bullets lead to danger in polygonally rifled guns. I have several surmises, but that is all they are.

Maybe somebody else can the mechanism.

Incidentally, thanks for reminding me to check on the availability of long arms in .32 H&R Mag. I have been planning on getting one, but became distracted.

John