Any waterheater experts out there ?

It looks like my waterheater has a small leak at the bottom of the tank next to the wall ( in the back of the waterheater). I can't see exactly where it's coming from, but after drying it and looking carefully in the morning that looks like where the leak is. The water pools directly under the waterheater. Anyone have any ideas ? Thanks,
Dave

How old is it? I hear they only have about a 10 to 20 year lifecycle, and they are rarely repairable, unless it's an obvious problem with a fitting. Some people replace them before they go bad at a specific age, because when the go bad it can be a disaster. I don't know what that age is though. Mine's probably at about that age, since my house is 15 years old and so is the water heater.

X-Ray Dave:

Your only option is to replace it.

A leak signals thinning walls in the water jacket which unlike heavily built industrial water heaters cannot be safely sealed with a self-tapping boiler sealing screw.

Good luck!

Bountyhunter

Just what I didn't want to hear. It's 10 years old. Thanks,

Dave

New water heater time unless you can prove it's a failed temperature-pressure relief valve or leaking draincock. Forget fixing a leaking tank - get a new heater.

Get one with magnesium anodes instead of aluminum (2 anodes better than one).

...and a swirl inlet dip tube - or you can modify the factory one. Keeps sediment from building up in case you're not rigorous about flushing the tank occasionally. Your choice about condensing burner or not, but I like my water heater to work even when the power is off... finally, you might consider a 50 gallon instead of a 40 gallon. AO Smith makes good heaters (no affiliation) and so do others. Warranty duration is one indicator of quality, but not the only one.

New ones are supposed to have a flame arrestor screen around the burner chamber to prevent ignition of flammable vapors and gasses creeping along the floor, but you might be able to get a better deal on an "old" model without the screen if you bargain with the supplier.

I'm going to write all that down. Like i said before, mine may be due in the next few years also. A bigger tank is definitely on my list. I'd probably even save money that way, because I could turn the temp down and still be able to take long showers.

Benton,

A good 50 gallon water heater has had a noticable effect on lowering my gas bill compared to the previous 40 gallon. And we simply don't run out of hot water in the morning crunch time anymore, despite turning the temp down. YMMV, but that's how it worked out for us.

Don't wait a few years, replace it now. I saw a slight drip under mine while I was replacing a pipe in my kitchen and though I'd have to replace it once I finish the kitchen. Well my wife called me one day at work because she heard water running so I had her shut off the main and drove home. We had to go to the hardware store and pick up another to replace it then so we could shower before work the next day. While I was buying the new heater I found this aluminum pan that looked like a big pie pan with a short piece of pipe sticking out the side. You sit the heater inside it and run the pipe to a drain so if it leaks the water doesn't ruin anything. I had to set mine one a scrap sheet of plywood for extra support because the plywood on the floor looked a bit messed up from the water, I need to pull the heater out someday and replace the floor now.

Heh. Good point. That's the right thing to do if it's not sitting on the lowest level (basement in my case) with a floor drain nearby. And codes have required those overflow pans for a long time. If you didn't add a pipe to the temperature-pressure relief valve to carry water down to the pan in the event it opens, you should do that, too - and not just to catch the mess, but also to divert any blast of steam and scalding water away from face-height of anyone nearby. Also a code requirement. Of course some areas don't have any codes, but those are good things to do, regardless of any statutory considerations.

If you are doing this yourself, when you purchace your new water heater be sure you also get a new pressure temperature relief valve and when you plumb it in do not use regular PVC. Some areas allow the use of CPVC or PEX and others require metal.

As long as you are replacing the water heater, you may want to consider a short fat style. My next water heater is going to be of that variety with an overflow pan mounted on a solid table which will be screwed to the basement floor. Just be sure the pressure valve tubing runs down to within inches of the floor so that in the event of pressure release you don't get sprayed by hot water bouncing off the drip pan or table.

My next high efficiency furnace will be one of the short compact Rheems mounted on a steel table which will be screwed to the basement floor. This will make filter changing, blower motor oiling, and general yearly testing and cleaning easier. Mounted higher also keeps it farther away from the humid basement floor.

Bountyhunter

Short and fat seems like a great idea. Lower surface area to volume ratio, which should help with the efficiency. Spherical would be ideal, but also too expensive to make.

I would want one big enough so that I can set the temp just a little above comfortable shower temperature, without running out after 2 long showers (or one extra-long shower with 2 people, <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). That would seem to me to be the most efficient. My washer and dishwasher both have internal heaters to bring their temperature up to what they need.

Theoretically, what would be the most energy efficient is "on demand" at each faucet. Then you don't have a tank of hot water sitting around waiting to be used, radiating energy. I understand that's how it's done in Europe in some places, but that's not the American way.

While the on demand system will be more energy efficient, you also have to consider the initial start-up cost in the equation. If the smaller waterheaters work similarly (with a small tank near the point of use), manufacturing requirements to make the smaller tanks may make them significantly more expensive for the capacity. Locally a 40 gallon waterheater is $100-$300. A tankless point of use costs $200 each. The prices are from the Lowe's website and is based on the store nearest my zipcode YMMV.

Benton,

Tankless, point-of-use, instantaneous - whatever term the salesrep uses - are difficult to apply well in a retro-fit to a typical upper MidWest house. I'm neither for or against them, but do some hard homework before deciding. I'm on the regulatory side of the business, and we open-mindedly see everything under the sun; what works and what doesn't work. Some things to look into:

1. What is the water temperature of your water supply in the dead of winter? We have VERY cold supply water in my town (Mississippi River source) in wintertime; as a practical matter yours can't be colder (but probably isn't warmer) and that has an unbelievable impact on how much hot water you can wring out of those puppies. You need to review ALL the rate-of-rise data and size for the largest winter time situation - usually showering. Here (south of you) the size required at least doubles from summer to winter conditions.

2. The efficiency information is usually over-hyped and you need to read the fine print. At full output they require an enormous energy input. At trickle-of-warm water rates (like shaving), most of them are fairly inefficient. Heat exchanger design is optimized for certain conditions, and the device's automatic energy controls vary from "off-or-on" to some number of discrete steps or levels, depending on the specific model. They simply cannot be universally efficient through a large range of demand situations.

3. The best way to take advantage of these is to put one at every point-of-use location - every shower/tub, every lavatory, etc. That's a heck of a lot simpler to do with a new house as it's being built than with a retrofit to an exisiting house. There are many compromises made when they are used as a substitute for a storage water heater in a house that was designed for a storage water heater.

4. In an efficiency flat with a shower/tub, lavatory, and kitchen sink all on a common wall or plumbing chase, located within a few feet of each other, they make a great deal of sense. In a flat with pay-as-you-go energy metering, they make sense from the landlord's point of view. They are very difficult to adapt to typical Western lifestyles, especially USA lifestyles in typical USA houses unless you put lots of properly-sized units all over the house. And you will NOT recover those costs in increased efficiency over a normal lifetime if you do it that way. Even extra-high efficiency storage tank heaters take a while to pay back the increased cost - the math is simple; check yourself.

If you want to really make a huge dent in your home energy use (assuming your home is reasonably well insulated and draft-sealed already), look into ground source heat pumps. If you choose, they can also provide all your domestic hotwater needs, and the industry in the US is finally mature. They eliminated the big problem (choice of anti-freeze for the working fluid) some time back, so take any apocryphal stories that armchair experts may relate to you with a grain of salt. The upfront costs on a re-fit are scary as heck - we're talking home equity loan here for most folks - but the return-on-investment times are typically extremely short unless you have unusual geological circumstances (BEDROCK). It's almost absurd that new homes are not nearly universally built with ground source heat pumps in this area - especially in new subdivisions, when a common well field can be installed very economically on a per-house basis.

OK; this is ETS and I'm simply not going to add any more to this thread or any other home-improvement stuff, Campfire forum or not.

I hope this is food for thought, and helpful to you.

Tom

You won't need ANY anodes if you install the unit with dieclectric fittings. The differences in potential (electric) between dissimilar metals causes premature corrosion of hot water heaters...i.e., iron to copper, copper to aluminum, etc.

Having said that, an anode doesn't hurt <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The sacrificial anodes in water heaters are designed to reduce corrosion in the water jacket and really have no bearing on the pipe connections outside of the tank.

The dielectric fittings are a good idea for the tank connections in the case of dissimilar metals and will make the outside connections less likely to corrode and leak, but the internal anode is for the small bits and pieces that make it into the tank and may affect the tank itself. The sacrificial anode is softer and easier to attack and protects the tank by letting itself be eaten by the chemical or electrical processes that may occur in the tank water.

Bountyhunter

AyersGT:

I have to disagree with your view on your post.

This forum IS about practical survival and just living day to day with some of the emergencies that can affect us all is reasonable.

I don't run the site and my view may not be valid, but my view is reasonable, practical, and has no "RAMBOSQUE" tilt to it.

Bountyhunter

Pete,

Sure - but *I* don't want to yak about it anymore was my point, so I'm not.

[over-the-shoulder-toss] ...your anode/dielectric comments are exactly right. Using dielectric pipe unions is a good idea - at the very worst harmless, and possibly required by local codes - but have nothing to do with tank anodes. The magnesium anodes are "commercial grade", work better than the cheaper aluminum anodes, and are less worriesome re: adding trace amounts of aluminium salts to the potable water for those who are concerned about the matter... and now I'm quits on the topic! (it's too work-related for my mood right now). Y'all go ahead and discuss home improvement all you want, NP. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> [lurk mode on]

Tom

Are you talking about GMO heaters ??

Aaaarrrrghhhhh................;;;

<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Tom, that's a lot to think about. I'm not going to say the cold-water tap is cold here in the twin cities, but I will say it doesn't take long to freeze a fresh ice tray.

One other item related to hot water is a regulated mixer valve in the shower. It would seem to save a lot of fiddling, and I can't imagine they cost a whole lot. Do you know if anything like that is widely available?

Thank you everyone for all the replies and information. It hasn't died yet , but I guess we will replace it soon(like the first day my wife has off)

Dave

Let's just say we aren't "tankless", eh Dave?

Frenchy:

What is a GMO?

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Goatrider:

Did you know that hot water (Not boiling hot when you put it in the freezer.) will freeze solid faster than tap water?

Try it, I didn't believe it until I tried it.

Bountyhunter

Usually true! Works with most tap water that has been boiled. Doesn't work with distilled water (that's a clue as to why it happens).

It happens for the same reason that water is an insulator and not a conductor of electricity.

Bountyhunter

Yah, I've heard that, but it doesn't make any sense thermodynamically. I haven't tried it myself yet. But there are a lot of things in thermodynamics that don't make sense.

It does remind me of an interesting thing that happened last winter. My wife had left a nalgene bottle full of water out of our Brita filter in the car. It was around 0 degrees out. She brought the bottle to me and wondered why it hadn't frozen. I opened it, and it froze instantly. Supercooling is so cool!

oooopsss....
Maybe I should have said GMH = Genetically Modified Heater ?!?

(I know you already have Geneticallly Modified Organisms for sweet corn and, according to Brian, for Texan bunnies ....)

<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Frenchy:

Oh!, for a minute there you had me wondering. GMO in Milwaukee, Wisconsin stands for "Greater Milwaukee Open" which is a golf tournament. I was not able to put water heaters, a French citizen, and a golf tournament together.

You have to remember that just because I am a humble, unassuming, extremely good looking Italian born male, I still do not know everything. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Holy crud I think I know where to go if I ever need water heater or any other HVAC advice. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

>> I was not able to put water heaters, a French citizen, and a golf tournament together.<<

Sounds like the start of a joke, Bounty...

Rena

ive been having problems with my water heater recently as well, glad i got some good info from here thanks guys.

Can't survive without a water heater, right? Yah, that's it.

Well, I'm at that age now where the only reason I have to or want to take cold showers is to get clean. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter

not unless i move to a tropical area...or just but lots of warm blankets and cocoa mix .