T.V.series LOST

I suppose I should mention this latest Hollywierd bit of art. A commercial liner hits turbulance over the ocean, breaks in three and plummets to an island with 48 survivors. A M.D. is the main protagonist. We have the obligatory suturing of a wound, a badly crushed leg tourniqueted with a tie ( don't worry, our doctor released it later that night and saved it,) and they are thousands of miles off course and the transponder doesn't work. Oh, theres something really BIG out there that ate the pilot after our hero found him alive in the nose section. It's SURVIVOR meets JURASSIC PARK. Personally, I bet it's Ruppert who ate the pilot <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yeah.. when King Kong/T-Rex or whatever it is became a major plot element, I turned it off and went to bed. Obviously, they could milk this pseudo-mystery (they haven't shown it, whatever it is) for many episodes, but the bottom line is that anything that size (huge, waaayy out of Komodo dragon range) that eats people on a South Pacific island is just going to be unbelievable when they reveal what it's supposed to be... so I see no reason to suspend disbelief until then.

Too bad, it had some potential before they introduced a very silly idea. Next Professor Challenger will show up, then aliens...

Rumor has it that later on they will will find another longtime survior hidden away on that island. His name, as it turns out, is Gilligan. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

damn. I was on duty last night and missed it.

Actually, my first thought was "ok, modern airliner, nobody was allowed on with even a pen knife, so we're going to watch them all die slowly now"... which might have at least had some educational value, if anyone in the audience was astute enough to make the connection. Or maybe there'd be enough ferrous metal in the aircraft to improvise some tools, if they got right on it.. those turbine blades might be promising...

However, I understand that the "next episode" teaser showed guns, so apparently it is going to be like Gilligan's Island- anything that they need for a plot line will just appear.

I'm betting that they devote a lot more time to Mr. T (Rex) and "evil people with guns" than, say... procuring food and water.

I think I'll devote the "TV time" to Father of the Pride instead. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

well.... I don't know who Pr Challenger is, but what's about aliens ? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Everybody knows Pdt Kennedy assassination has been plotted by aliens, so what's unbelievable ?!? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


(hey ! don't throw rotten tomatoes on me !I know it's a bad one ! I just had to write it, when Bounty is not there .....) <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

>>Everybody knows Pdt Kennedy assassination has been plotted by aliens<<

Not such a novel idea.

I know someone who contends that it's not possible to ever know exactly what happened at the Kennedy assassination (and the Lincoln assassination, and other events), because time-travelers have mucked things up so much that there just IS no definite past around those events...

Of course, he also thinks he's the reincarnation of George Patton....

well, I'm sorry to say so, but ....yes, he is obviously wrong !
there can only be one reincarnation at a given time, and I'm Patton's one !
<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
(AAMOF, I wanted to be Napoleon's one, but a friend of mine (next cell, down the hall...) already was...)

i had some hope for this show i admit, maybe a little gritty and darker then typical tv crap.

but the first 20 mins made me want to laugh because it was pretty bad.

first the young handsome doctor (formerly of party of 5 so the women are tuning in guaranteed), runs around saving the plot devices...i mean other characters.

then the brave doc meets cute co-passenger who stiches him up while he becomes vulnerable...how sweet.

and some idiot gets sucked into a turbine and gives us some excitement oooo ahh...lol.

a few minutes after that i left feeling this show was a hopeless cause.


some problems i had with the film:
1. the doc was apparently thrown pretty far from the wreck with not alot of visible signs of damage. (ok maybe it could happen)
2. in crashes with trees other objects arent the wings supposed to snap off so they dont add to the wreck with fuel.
3. the doctor went to be alone to do the stiches etc...what about passing out from shock or removing a piece of shrapnel and bleeding to death before being found? what about the first rule when going out make sure someone knows where your going to be?
4. in the very begining someone is standing RIGHT infront of the turbines, nothing happens but joe shmoe walks by and is further away then the other guy was..and gets sucked right into the turbines.
helpfull note everyone, if encountering wild turbines stand still and dont move and your ok.

whos taking bets on weeks before cancellation i give it 6 episodes tops.

I'll agree with your 6 week estimate.....man, what a stinker!

I too could not take it past about 20 minutes.

Harley

This was the worst piece of crap I have seen for a long time. At first, I was really disappointed, then amused, and then laughing my head off!! Not even a shred of reality here folks.

I'm actually really glad that TV is now crap. I'm no longer a slave to it. I can have a life now!

Unfortunately, this life has now been soaked up by yakking on useless forums.

im so glad i wasnt the only one who laughed at this piece of garbage.

you cant watch a show like that with your mom or gf and mock it without them calling you mean and heartless to their "plight".

2 men say they're Jesus; one of them must be wrong..
There's a protest singer, he's singin' a protest song...

(Dire Straits: Industrial Disease)

Well, you're certainly right about the quality- there hasn't been anything decent on since they cancelled Firefly (which is coming back as a movie anyway).

I'm getting a lot more reading done, all to the good... unless you're a network, I guess.

And did you see what they did in FireFly???
They had to wrap a gun in a spacesuit so that it would have oxygen to fire(they were in space at the time...) <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Where do the writers think guns get their oxygen from anyway??? Little vents??? WTF???

Did they? Somehow I missed that- or assumed it was for some other reason... or maybe I'm blocking it out.

After 30 years of vacuum ships with rudders and retractable landing gear, space warships painted white, "targeting computers" that can't hit another ship in plain sight about 10 ship-lengths away, and ships that meet in space ALWAYS sharing a "local vertical" for no apparant reason, I guess I'm getting numb to it.

"The plane has a black box, they know exactly where we are at" No dear, that black box doesn' actually provide EPIRB capabilities. Apparently they writers didn't research that too well. The premise of the gun is that there is a U.S. Marshall on board with a prisoner. Of course, it's not the ahole with the group in the jungle, its the pretty, hot , nice woman. Turns out she's probably some mass murder.

Anyway, lots of improbabilities. Turns out the "thing in the jungle" is a Polar Bear. I have to see a few episodes to see how stupid this is, or what the explanation is. Plus, that weird guy is apparently really into knives, and sitting in the rain, or playing backgammon and doing nothing to help anyone else. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You would think a serious like this would be good to educate the public, without them ever really knowing they're being educated.

Actually, they made it clear (in the dialog) that the polar bear was not Godzilla from episode 1.

I know they'll let some law enforcement officers on planes with some firearms. At one time, the 44 Special was the rule, designed as it was not to puncture a fuselage. So... I don't know, but I have to wonder... do they now let a law enforcement officer on board with a handgun capable of stopping a polar bear? Whatever it was, it looked almost big enough, despite the guy's story that he took it from the officer's ANKLE holster. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've lost track, are we on day two or day three? No clue as to how people are spending the night, or if anyone is thinking about survival issues other than the manly Adam Sandler clone and the lady- who, it turns out, probably doesn't really want to be "rescued".

Speaking of the lady, did anyone else catch the part where guys are shouting and fighting, ignoring everything else, until she shouts "STOP!", and they all do? How well we seem to be trained. I've lost count of the dynamic, active and admirable female leads in the past 20 years (sort of starting with "Ripley" in Alien), which I don't really mind, but I could count the truly dynamic and admirable male leads in the same period on one hand. If something needs to get done competently in a screenplot these days, they genearlly choose a woman to do it. Male roles are mostly evil, inept or both... and when, rarely, the script does require a macho male, they generally pick an actor so patently wimpy for the role that it just seems ridiculous. John Wayne need not apply. Maybe Russel Crowe, once in awhile...

So, in keeping with the PC trend, whatever feeble explanation is behind Mr. Big tromping through the trees AND the polar bear, I'm betting it's the result of an evil corporation doing evil things on an island so remote that the good governments of the world won't know about it to stop them... we could write this stuff...

Presumed Lost:

About that U.S. Marshall that was on board with a handgun; could be he was disguised as an aging hippie wearing bell bottoms. You could get a really big gun in an ankle holster with those kinds of pants, but he would have to walk around like Festus from "Gunsmoke". If the agent was a female and built like Dolly Parton, you could hide a big gun in a bra (Yes, they do make them for those of you that don't know.) holster.

See, I'm already writing better than they are.

And it's not an evil corporation, it's an evil President cloning dinosaurs to smell out weapons of mass destruction, then when they screw up, he can blame it on inferior genetics.

I should be getting paid for this post, who owns that TV program.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm going to probably get flamed for this (especially cause of low post count), but I actually liked it. I think you guys are expecting too much from it. A good survival show probably wouldn't last more than a couple of episodes. The great-unwashed masses just wouldn't except it.

"Lost" has the potential of being a really fun show, IMHO. 'Course I like zombie movies too <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. The second episode does seem to indicate that some organization has been doing experiments on the island, so who knows what they might find. I see this as more of a Buffy/Angel type show with a survival twist, as opposed to a pure survival show. I think they'll probably through in some survival tidbits here and there. As long as they don't get it too terribly wrong, I won&#8217;t complain. Remember that this is a TV show on one of the Big Three. Don't expect too much.

ki4buc, I had a totally different take on the black box thing. Too me it seems that they have been setting up that character as the totally useless bit of fluff. IMO, the fact that she thought a black box sends out a distress signal, was just another way of showing us that she really isn't all that connected to reality. Of course, I could be worn and you could be right about the writers just being incompetent.

Leo

who doesnt like those? those are some of the best horror themed monsters IMO.

if lost just added SOME real useful survival info or situations i dont think it would be mocked as much as it was.

>>if lost just added SOME real useful survival info or situations i dont think it would be mocked as much as it was.<<

Exactly. "Cast Away" was lame in many respects (in 4 years he accomplished... what?), but at least it pretty realistically portrayed the fears of the first nights, and how hard it was to create fire....

I'm just embarrassed to admit that I've watched "Lost" twice now...

I missed the first episode... but I was mainly wanting to see some of my favorite no name actors (Daniel dae Kim, Terry O'Quinn, etc) do their stuff... and I almost gasped outloud when I caught the episode on oct 6th... Terry O'Quinn was playing Locke... which is good, he's good with "Millenium" type characters.

But it was the Title of the Third epsiode, "Tabula Rasa" that caught me off guard, and instantly makes me want to check out the series in depth....

First, Tabula rasa, or "blank slate", is the basic idea that individual human beings are born "blank" (with no built-in mental content), and that his or her identity is defined overwhelmingly by events after birth. However, there are two meanings of the term in modern usage, and these meanings are fundamentally incongruent.

Now, The character, Locke... seems to be a direct refrence to John Locke (August 29, 1632 - October 28, 1704), who was an Enlightenment philosopher. The character in Lost seemingly has a knowledge about the island ("evil") inhabitants... which we'll get to see invade the camp in the upcoming episodes...

Now, this gets a bit preachy.... but...

As understood by Locke, tabula rasa meant that the mind of the individual was born "blank", and it also emphasized the individual's freedom to author his own soul. Each individual was free to define the content of his character -- but his basic identity as a member of the human species cannot be so altered. It is this presumption of a free, self-authored mind combined with an immutable human nature, from which the Lockean doctrine of "natural" rights derives.

The modern definition of tabula rasa, however, is fundamentally altered from the Lockean meaning. While the idea that the individual can be changed remains, the power to effect that change is now ascribed to society, not the self -- and that power extends to the whole of human nature. Under this view, one can shape the individual with few, if any, restrictions by changing the individual's environment, and thus sensory experiences. In this form, the theory is taken up by many utopian schemes that rely on changing human nature in order to achieve their goals. As the Lockean idea of "natural rights" no longer holds any meaning under such a view (because "natural" now means whatever society chooses to define), many such schemes end up moving towards one form or another of totalitarianism.

So what does all this mean? A couple of things. IF you're into character driven stories, this is it. You get to see just where humanity begins and ends, and what societies without law can do.

Second... I bet you anything Locke's connection to the island will become fuel for the already character driven fire.

Forget all this "The plan crash wasn't accurate" crap, thats just a back drop. These creatures are going to change a few peoples opinions.... and I bet you it's not dinosaurs.

(Side Note: Check out the last ten seconds of "Deep Rising" for an interesting connection to "Lost")

You're right... I've decided it's not dinosaurs at all, but the large monster we never see is a manifestation of the group's collective unconscious "survivor guilt", which is of course an obvious homage to "Forbidden Planet", itself based on Shakespeare's "The Tempest", with it's allegory of the awakening of the long-suppressed parts of human spirit in the late renaissance, and the relationship of that awakening to the opening of the New World.

Just kidding.

I may be wrong, but my first reaction is that you're really stretching to find deep intrinsic significance in a screenplay that may have none at all.

But then, I didn't watch the latest episode. Perhaps I simply missed the deep significance because it happened in almost the last place one would expect.... that is, on TV.

I might be stretching... but if it wasn't intentional.... it's quite the coincidence.... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Maybe... maybe I'm just being cynical. On the other hand, being "faked out" by TV plots for a few decades can do that to you.

But I'm not saying it's coincidence...

The object of the game is to get you to tune in, and hopefully sit through the (now almost endless) commercials (and now the increasingly-obnoxious, dancing, noisy logos that interrupt your enjoyment of the show but don't count against their commercial break time). If being "intrigued" by vague allusions accomplishes that, great. The longer they can string the audience along wondering what's going on, the better. There doesn't have to be any substance behind it. There's no particular reason for them to have any "payoff" at the end of the episode, the season, or the series, because at that point they've accomplished their goal.

I watched the first three episodes again, several times. All these nay sayers must have been tuned outeven before the first episode, because they just don't seem to be backing anything up with much of anything.

While not everything is explained (if it was, it would be better off a miniseries not a weekly show), it does set everything up in such a way that makes JJ Abrams look brilliant.

Someone addressed the issue of the plane crash looking fake without realism... I called a few people talked to some others and checked with other boards; It's morte plausable than people think; theres TWO important factors everyone seems to leave out...

1) you can never fully predict what happens in any given crash. while there are some simple "predictable" physics involved (ie; plane falls apart, plane will go down), you can't possibly figure it out.

2) Theres a STORNG indication that the air "event", the decent, and the crash MAY have a supernatural or "controled" aspect to it. In the words of my friend, "Perhaps the island has a defense to it... it clearly has a dead zone to it".

Which makes sense. Obviously, if they took the dinosaurs route, it would get old fast - and the polar bear indicated there was a sort of natural "but unatural" element to it.

Of course, everything will be explained as the season(s) progress, but if it is a "Splicing colony", I'll scream.

Locke, of course, will reveail a bit too much in episode 4.

>>2) Theres a STORNG indication that the air "event", the decent, and the crash MAY have a supernatural or "controled" aspect to it.<<

Ok, that may be where we have a disconnect. At that point, I'm afriad I sort of lose interest. Not trying to dictate anyone else's interest, if you're into that, fine, but I sort of thought I would be seeing something about survival, not LOTR.

That's pretty much the same reason I started to get off the bus as soon as the "mysterious" BIG THING tromped down some trees. Whatever it turns out to be, it really seems that putting it on a South Pacific island is going to involve a real stretch. Same with the polar bear. Regardless of what turns the plot takes, when you've just shot a polar bear on a tropical island, you're no longer discussing realistic survival scenarios. When it becomes fantasy, as it seemed to pretty early, I personally lose interest.

>>Of course, everything will be explained as the season(s) progress<<

Actually, contradicting that was sort of my point in my last post on the subject. Maybe, but... I'd be willing to bet at least a few bucks that several of the most significant "unexplained" points will remain unexplained, probably until the series is cancelled. There's just no compelling reason for the writers to resolve much of anything so long as the audience is still stringing along hoping they will in the next episode.

Since I don't really intend to watch it anymore myself, I don't expect to comment on it further. I'll be interested to read here whether anything really gets resolved.

The black box reference was to show how the girl was - scared but repressing reality.

Finally saw the show and did not exactly like, but did not exactly dislike it. Kinda like potato chip programming.

Rena

first off i have to say i dont watch much "regular" tv anymore because im so sick of the over saturation from advertisements.

i watch movie channels or dvds etc mostly.

the dancing/ scrolling logos are an insult to people who in general are smart enough to know what IS coming on next because were tuned in.

ive written letters to get this process stopped because it really ruins the viewing experience sometimes its so stupid and annoying its distracting in the worst way.

so i encourage all of you who watch regular tv to write to your networks telling them to stop the animated logos, or they will loose more viewers.

a written letter is taken alot more serious then any calls or emails.

remember it started with the semi transparent logo in the corners, then the split screening so you can get a "quick news update" while seeing blurry credits roll by at triple speed.

this might sound like a silly rant, but i do consider it a form of disrespect to their viewers that for the most part pay for tv through cable.

and its only getting worse, remember when HBO and other "pay channels" had maybe 5 minutes of previews between non-stop movies?

now if you watch a show like the sopranos or dead like me the "hour" show is only 40 mins and they make you watch 20 mins for the OTHER shows your going to see next or in the near future.
im sorry but thats just stupid and overly annoying, so i tape what i plan to watch and just fast foward the ads and crap i dont need and have 20 mins free after that.

Okay I finally watched an episode for the first time last night. Once you get past (which isn't hard at all <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) the fact that its a TV adventure/drama and not a survival documentary it's not too bad. Action, adventure, mystery and of course good lookin women, that's enough for me to watch another episode. I'm not going to be nominating it for any awards but it's certainly better than a lot of the other junk on the tube these days like all of the "not so reality" shows.

Ohhh I agree SO MUCH about the animated ads and the logos at the bottom of the screen!
They are the most annoying things!!!

I got hooked into watching it last night because a preview showed a knife thrown into a chair (How did a wooden backed chair get on the airplane?) next to where someone was sitting (Also another wooden chair! Those of you that fly regularly have got to tell me why airplanes are using wooden chairs.).

First off, the knife was way too flexible and the blade design looked like a kitchen knife. The knife wielder then kicks open an aluminum box that contains what looked like the Knife Channels "60 knives for $22.00". They were chincy looking knives (I do not know the high end market well and may be insulting some quality knife makers, but all the knives had that high sheen on the blade that are a trademark of low quality, high luster Pakistani knives.), but I was hooked, wanting to know this guys background.

I should have quit watching when this pimple head went into the woods to catch and slit the throat of a wild pig with his knife in his hand instead of attaching it to a stick for use a thrusting spear, but I didn't. Well, the dingleberry comes back with a pig after some misadventures and yes its throat had been slit, and the knife was still not attached to a stick

The real idiocy of the writing (They know most people seem to lose the brains they were born with once television starts defining reality.) comes at the end of the show where it shows the guy was in a wheelchair for 4 years before the crash, happened to wake up laying on the sand after the crash, and got up and just started walking on legs that had not supported weight for 4 years.

Beyond the above, it now seems everyone in the series has a knife because pimple head saw fit to bring such a large quantity with him. The ?main? so-so woman with the ?level? head on her was shown wearing her knife near the front so that it kind of settled on the inside of her thigh. Kinsey must be turning over in his grave trying to get out so he can choke the banality out of the writers of this crap.

They had a couple of ghost like appearances by a President Bush lookalike (See, I told you it was an evil President cloning dinosaurs to seek out weapons of mass destruction.) who must have had weak kidneys or a bladder problem because he kept disappearing into the bushes(Small "b", not his relatives.).

I have gotten more entertainment banging my head against a door jamb and in the process resecured some of the nails, than I got from the "Lost" program last night.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Come on now ... don't hold back. Tell me how you really feel! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What is funny is that anyone can exist on this planet, let alone on this continent, and then pretend to be ignorant as to what crap this show obviously is. I saw the previews, I recognized it as crapola, and I tuned it out. Deliberately. To then sit there and complain about it seems pointless. The solution is easy: If it stinks, then don't watch, and it will hopefully go away.

But then again I thought the same about "Survivor". I still believe that the people who watch this "reality TV" crap will eventually inbreed so thoroughly that they will remove themselves from the gene pool --but that may take some time. Meanwhile, I console myself with PBS.

Still waiting with bated breath for "TOUCHING THE VOID".

Regards, Vince

Norad45:

It was the knife "hook" that sucked me in that one time. I know movie makers use pnuematic devices for "throwing" knives, but I was hoping for a halfway plausible bit of entertainment.

Oh well, back to beating my head on door jambs.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Well, actually, Jayne just said that Vera needed oxygen "around her" to fire. He didn't specify that it had anything to do with the ammo, just the gun. It's in the future, so who knows what the inner mechanics of that rifle looked like. Maybe in a vacuum the barometric regulators that help correct projectile flight path for altitude or atmospheric composition and/or pressure on different worlds would get confused and feed bad info to the main trajectory processor and the gun might jam. (In another post, I mentioned that, as a lifelong Star Trek fan, I can rationalize anything. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

What actually bothers me is that, with the rifle in the suit, Jayne couldn't realistically aim with any accuracy, yet their lives depended on him making a long shot with incredible precision. Bringing to bear my amazing skills at making up explanations, I'll just have to assume Vera had the ability to plug into some sort of HUD in Jayne's suit. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Stay safe,
J.T.

Yah, you are good. You should work for Bush!

No matter how you cut it, it's an awkward moment in the series. If it's just a stupid mistake, it's hard to believe that something that basic would go uncaught by anyone involved, on the other hand, if it was intentional, more explanation was certainly called for.

However, I'm willing to cut Whedon a little slack for being a pioneer (as far as TV) in portraying the vacuum of space as silent, no matter what's crashing, blowing up, or "swooshing" past the camera. I have to assume that every other series/movie knew better, but just couldn't resist putting sound effects in anyway, assuming we were all to stupid to catch it.

Goatrider:

Oh! Oh!, now you're in trouble. Norad45 is going to be all over you like bears on honey. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

You know how "those guys" are. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Wait. Before I jump all over him I have to know what the meaning of the word "goat" is.

My guess is "Goat" as in GTO.

If I'm wrong, correct me.

Your answer MAY modify my response... <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


Regards, Vince

Any cultured aficianado of Bugs Bunny , Flash Gordon and invasion from Mars knows a proper space weapon discharges an energy stream of eratic neon coloured sparks. Spaceships should have the curves of a italian design house and the alien women tall and dangerous ( until promised a hotdog at Dodger Stadium.)

I have no idea what the name "GoatRider" means. It popped into my head many years ago when I needed a name for a computer game, and it stuck. Maybe it means "CodeWriter". Anyways, what's "GTO"?

I bet that was the "wrong" answer. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

GTO=Gran Turismo Omologato, what Pontiac named their '64-'74 (& re-released in '04) muscle car. Also known as a "Goat". Check out:

http://www.ultimategto.com

The information we pick up around here...the car was named after a Ferrari.

Wow. Some nice rides there! Thanks for the link.

Ah, the 70's. The days of cheap gas, lax emission controls, and big block engines.

Vince

It was acutally a Japanese designed car that Detroit didn't want Americans to know was Japanese designed.

It is pronounced "GEE TOE". <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter

(PS: Like all GM products it makes a great raft anchor for your summer cottage.)

You gotta be kiddin'... never heard of the Pontiac GTO? It as one of the coolest muscle cars of it's day, sometimes lovingly called "The Goat". You can't be THAT much younger than I am <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Troy

Well, now that you bring it up, yes I do vaguely remember it. But I didn't get my driver's license until '79 or so. Anyways, I don't ride one.