Madrid tragedy

Hopefully, no ETS members were in the affected trains. Cable news reporting that bystanders are helping with the 900+ wounded. Over 170 dead.
Cowards attacking civilians.

I live in Madrid. Yesterday's events are another proof that we **all** are at War with terrorism. It doesn't matter who did it -Al-Qaeda or ETA-, it's all the same .

The sooner we realize there are no such a thing as a safe place in the World, the better. We all are targets, and we **MUST** react accordingly. And if that means exterminating all those terrorist, so be it.

The bombings in my city did affect me **as much as** September 11th. I was at the WTC a couple months before the brutal attacks. This time it was in my city. So what? A human being is a human being, no matter what he is from.

Let's we not forget we are at War. A war with no known battlefield, a war with a disguised enemy, a war that might take us decades to win. But, in the end, we, the People, shall prevail. I have no doubt about it.

Let's we not forget these tragic dates: 09-11-01 & 04-11-04.

It is all the same sad story again.

Compartimos el dolor de Espana.

Burak

Einherjar:

Are you from a parallel universe, and how did you get here to post?

I am currently in timezone March 12, 2004 or 03/12/04, and we had something like that happen yesterday <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />.

My condolences to the victims, their families, and their loved ones, but I do not believe the terrorist angle. I believe these things are done by established governments in order to stage unjust wars and take away freedoms through government proclaimations purporting as their goal,"to protect the people".

Bountyhunter

As is usually the case with me, Einherjar probably "just washed his hands, & can't do a thing with them". <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My sympathies to those affected, directly & indirectly--though in a since, we're all directly affected by such acts.

David

Being originally from another country, I must disagree (respectfuly) with you bountyhunter.

There are quite enough people who want to conquer the world with their ideology and dont mind a few corpses.

Yo tambien siento much lo que paso. Tengo primos que viven en Barcelona.

I believe that you both overestimate governments and underestimate fanatics. There are parts of the world where governments are small enough and rule tyranically enough for the fanatics to control the government . In these cases it is possible for much foolishness to be done by the govt.

The best protection from terrorists and from intrusive govt is individual responsibility. The more we take responsibility for ourselves the less likely we will be to have to rely upon "Big Brother" it is this dependance that empowers the govt to over-ride our liberties in order to protect us. The more we take responsiblity for ourselvees the less vulnerable we will be to the seconndary effects of terrorist attacks. Terrorists will always be able to blow up a restaruant - heck any kid could do that. But if we have our supplies ready and can weather whatever secondary effects such as blackouts, neighborhood reconstruction etc pretty much in stride then our society won't be damaged and our way of life won't be threatened. It may become a daily annoyance and an on-going fight / police activity / military activity but it needn't keep us from going on or even slowing down. The Israelites have managed to deal with terrorism against them wherever they have lived for several millenia and yet their culture persists and thrives wherever the find themselves.

Prepare, be vigilent, don't give in to paranoia, don't give in to terror, simply do what is right and keep on keepin on. When someone does you or yours wrong seek justice but don't live in a jail or a bunker. The jail imposed by an overly intrusive govt isn't much different than the bunker chosen by the doomsayer.

What are you left with? Go to work and hope you come home. Your odds are still better than they were when we weren't the top predator on the food chain.

Post deleted by Chris Kavanaugh

How do you manage to reach that conclusion? By "established Governments" I presume you mean Western governments, who we have to thank for our way of life and standard of living. Or do you mean the Theocracies of the East, (whom we sold arms to) enforcing Islamic Law, stoning woman for adultry, supplying little or no social support, (eg. state benefits) ruling thier populations with an iron fist and with no chance of voting their government out of office.
What freedoms have you lost so far? Certainly not freedom of speech, not your right to vote, or the right earn a decent living.
If a government wants to go to war they make up a story about WMD's, which half the world doesn't believe - then they go to war. Killing and maiming innocent civilains isn't necessary, ( at least not on home ground) and ultimatley weakens the very economies they need to be able to fund thier wars.
If your unhappy with your present way of life, where in the world would you go to find a better one?
Why have they baned knives/sharp instruments on planes? Is it so that "established government" agents don't meet any resistance when they try and hijack it? Or is it so that someone else doesn't get the chance to crash the plane. Or maybe its just to wreck your holiday?
Even if you are right, I'd rather lose a small slice of freedom than live under some of the vile regimes of this world. If the day comes when I can't speak openly - like I'm doing now - without getting myself and my family executed, or have a chance to try and change our system, then I might take you seriously.
In the meantime I'll leave my Leathermen at home during my vacation, and trust my government is protecting me and my family from the extremists and pychopaths that seem to be crawling out the woodwork.

Tragedies such as this are like momentarily losing control of a bicycle. We seek to regain balance in our world through anger, questions and eagerly offered answers from selfish agendas. Hemingway, who loved Spain wrote, "The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." Out of respect for the 199 dead and 1400 injured lets leave it at that.

The attack happened in Spain, so the "established governments" with the most to gain by suppressing rights are on the Europeon continent.

I do not know that Western governments have anything to gain from what happened in Spain, but there are many Europeon governments that may have an interest.

Bountyhunter

Minime:

You are right, but the point I did not clearly state is that the "whole" government of any country is never at fault. Because of the complexities of governments, you can have cells of fanatics operating while being part of the government, yet not sanctioned to do what they decide by and for themselves.

The movie "Three Days of the Condor" was a perfect example of a renagade government cell that when found was terminated, but to cover the mess, the last remaining innocent (Robert Redford) had to be killed.

The movies "The Dogs of War", and "The Parallex View" showed how a small force or a series of actions could effect profound changes in a society or one persons life.

Accepting the realities of what could happen does not make one paranoid or unpatriotic.

Bountyhunter

DBAguy:

I was born in Eboli, Italy in a refugee camp for people who lost the war against the Communists in Yugoslavia. My father fought in that war and taught me the lessons he had learned about governments and wars.

He taught me that ideology is usually manipulated by those that seek power and/or profit. It makes sense to me that those in power who know that they can create chaos and profit by it are more likely to do so than those that are "mad at the world".

Bountyhunter

Chris:

Agreed and done.

Bountyhunter

Agree with your words 100%, all the way. God will tend the victims, we should tend to the purpetrators of any and all acts of terrorism with enough force to convince would-be's that it isn't going to be a winning proposition for them.

Troy

P.S. Prayers to those victims and their families.

Didn't see this before my last post on the subject, agreed with all respect.

Troy

Toward Bringing People some More Up to Date,-

I've just Heard on the News this Evening, that

Al Qaida has Itself Claimed Responsibility for It, (Basque Separatists / Terrorists over the Past Few Days have also *Denied* their Involvement, or so they say),

An Al Qaida Video Tape Claiming Responsibility for the Explosions was also Recently Found at the Site,

and that this Occurred Not only on the 11th of a Month, but Exactly 2 1/2 Years After our own Sept. 11th.

I Extend All Sympathy and Solidarity to our Spaniard Friends, at This Time.

[color:"black"] [/color] [email]wildcard163[/email]

... some 911 or 912 days after the New York attacks, if I'm right in my calculation....

You've Really Uncovered something there. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]frenchy[/email]