Survivalists, Avert Your Eyes...A "hot" topic

OK, I just got into it a bit with an aquantance of mine who is a true "End of the World as We Know It" survivalist. He's got 4,000 gallons of diesel stored in his basement, has enough ammo in the house to supply a whole army division, and has stored weapons and food all over the place in the woods around his house. He's hard-core!
So, the conversation goes like this:

Him: You're not really "prepared" for when it's "go" time, Marty!

Me: What, exactly, is "go" time to you?

Him: When things in the cities collapse and everyone panics and heads to the country! You Gotta Be Ready To Shoot First and Defend Your Property! That's "Go Time" baby! (with glee in his eyes he says this)

Me: I see. "they" will see danger and panic and flee - like they did this summer in the big blackouts in the east? Or on September 11th? or when Chicago Flood in the 90's? Or when 3 Mile Island melted down? Or when they had SARS in Hong Kong?

Him: That's small-time compared to a nuke in DC!!! (Smiles again)

Me: Look a small nuke IN the capital building would leave MOST of DC intact.

and so forth...

My question/point - is the "Mad Max" vision of the future what's so alluring for these folks or is it something else? All my experience in emergencies is that many people go TOWARD the danger to help if they can. What am I missng here? Haven't the "triggers" that "should" set off the population into a mass panic happened more than a few times in the last 20 years? I vividly remember the Y2K scare and how funny it seemed to me to be scared, becasue I knew there were large amounts of money to be lost if the computers conked out. I also know those with money do what it takes to protect it, so I knew Y2K would be a non-event. It's the same with a mass-casualty incident. I'm a firefighter, my brother is a cop, and we're both surrounded by literally millions of people who can and do help in emergencies. I just don't get this "end of the world as we know it" stuff.

Can someone get me into their heads a bit?

It could very well be the fantasy of it all that drives this type of thinking.

On the other hand, there are the "PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER." (I'm sure your friend has used this word! <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) and there are those that are going to prepare and be ready for whatever they can.

I don't really have a concise answer for you.

I do feel that paranoia increases everyday, ever so slowly. I also feel that the next 10 years will really determine what happens to the human race as a whole. (Though I also said that 10 years ago! <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) It's a hard call.

I've noticed that as computers become relied upon more, people become less prepared, or less able to deal with "ruffing it". More and more systems, jobs, and functions are taken over by computers, meaning that if the infrastructure of those machines, or electricity in general collapses, it would set society back further and further.

For instance, I had read that Morse Code was no longer going to be included in Ham Radio Operators Tests. (Haven't verified this yet.) Think of a whole generation NOT knowing morse code, a means of communication that can be used a number of different ways. But what's the point, we have cell phones right?...

...right...

But that's just my crazy rant, and I'm sure your friend has stated some of the same ideas.

All I can say is Kudos! to your friend for preparing so well. Wish I had the time and money to store away some stuff. I'm having enough trouble putting food on the table for my family let alone putting it in storage.

But then again, what good would it do if a nuke was dropped in your area anyway? <img src="images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Black Ops

I don't think you have to get into their heads, the answer lies right between our own ears. It is called disenfranchisement and empowerment. We all have felt it to an extent. I lose my job, wife, the dog runs off and a man I loath sits in the oval office ( insert whoever you've disliked in the last few decades.) Or, I have all the material goodies after years of hard work and some guy announces my permit for the hottub is refused because of some endangered salamander ( who also spent years of hard work evolving or being created by God for that bit of earth.) it doesn't matter what the reallity or cause is, people feel disenfranchised or scared. It is almost a genetic trait from when we were easy fastfood on the African grasslands for a sabretoothed lion, or, suffering the trials our various spiritual beliefs throw at us. Then comes empowerment. If I buy a gun, #10 buckets of lima beans and pills to keep my liver intact after a nuke lands on that poor salamander IT WON'T HAPPEN. It could, along with the Second Coming, the Age of Aquarius or my wining the lottery. Assembing my kits gave me a sense of security. I can't control job markets, homicidal ex girlfriends or Global Warming. But, when I go for hikes to get away from these issues the PSK is complete. I am empowered. So, just respect your friend's preparations as you would the babysitter talking about crop [email]circles@@@@@.[/email] Who knows? If Michael Rennie comes back they may be EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Survivalists.....

To me they are very media influenced folks stocking up for the "unthinkable"... Bags of rice, 55gal drums of water, caches of weapons and ammunition, etc..

Nothing more than a sad group of folks stocking up on physical goods for mental comfort. I say let them have at it. ( if we aren't careful the same could be said of ourselves..) If moving to a remote area of the US ( or not ) and stockpiling food and ammo makes you feel better, then just go on ahead and do it.

Its a serious paranoia, almost incurable.. Folks that believe the way your friend does won't head twards a major event to help. They'll hunker down in a cellar and imagine a scene out of "Red Dawn" unfolding.

Best advice I have is to steer clear of such nonsense....

Hi, Marty

I hope I don't step on too many toes or offend anyone with this, but the way I see it is, the "Doom & Gloomers" don't see any way of things getting any better ( economy, social order, return of "old fashioned" values, etc. ) without things getting a whole lot worse. In their minds, if they and their like-minded "equals" are the ones who survive the "Big Whatever" or are at least the ones on top, they can remake society to their liking. Please understand, I'm not putting anyone down, as I used to fall quite nicely into this category myself. However, I've since grown up some and figured out what was going on in my own head. I still think something catastrophic may happen some day, but I now realize that an individual can't get through something Earth-changing by themselves and it just might be a good thing that EVERYONE doesn't think JUST LIKE me. Besides... I want to be on a motor-sailer in the Carribean when "The Balloon Goes Up".

Just my two cents worth...any feedback?

Troy

Shame on you Marty.
Everyone needs a dream.
It helps off set those voices they hear.

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to assemble and use a PSK and you feed him for a lifetime." Or something like that.

Personally, I Think there *is* some Reasonable Possibility of some level of TEOTWAWKI or Other Societal Disruptions, Coming to Happen. It May or May Not someday occur. But in it's at least Reasonable Possibility, I Prefer to Place my Preparedness Focus on the "May" here.

Now I'm Not a TEOTWAWKI Survivalist! Indeed, I'm Not Any kind of Survivalist, in Our's or the Conventionally Understood Sense of the Term.

I Think that they as a Group, (and in Many to Most Cases Individually), are Often Superfluous, Silly, and can be in some cases Downright Dangerous! Some of them shud Get and Be Real! What are we Going to Hear Next from some of them?, -that Dogs can Fly?!

But However, in my Reasonably Thinking that some Harder, Testing and Trying Times may be Coming, People as me do Share some Limited and Qualified Commonality with their TEOTWAWKI Concerns, in that way.

Economically, Morally, Internationally, Environmentally, and from Energy / Natural Resources and National Security and Defense Standpoints, -I Think that we may be Standing on Increasingly Weaker Ground! -To Give here some generally More Specific Examples of what I Mean.

So some such as I, Do Share in some TEOT. type Concerns, though Certainly Not in the *Ways* that so Many Survivalists and Co.Do!

We also Overlap in our Both being into the Many Nuts and Bolts of Survival. We Both want to Know how to operate Fire Drills, (the Bow kind, I Mean), for example.

But we Part Company from them Beyond Those Two Areas of Limited Commonality.

It's Occurred to me, that we shud Call ourselves "SurvivalERS", to Distinguish Ourselves from they, the SurvivalISTS ! Ordinarily, the Latter would be a Fine Term, in and of Itself, But they of the "Ists" Have Co-Opted the Term for their Own Purposes! We Need a Name and a Term!, for Ourselves, when such Need should Arise! As Surely it Has and Will ! We Cannot Use the Logical and Fine One, that they've Appropriated Unto Themselves! So I Suggest and Propose "Survivalers", in that they've so Taken Over our "Survivalists"!

On Something you've said, I Think that in Any Sort of a Chaotic or TEOT. Situation, that you're Gonna Run into Both Types of People!, -Helpers and Non-Helpers! We've Got to Be Prepared for Both!

As to People Running *Toward* a Disaster or Danger to Help, that may be True in Some to Many Cases. But it's also Flat *Un*true in Many Others! On Sept.11th, I Recall that People were Running like Heck *Away* From what they then knew to be Collapsing Buildings. It's Only Human Nature and Self Preservation. On your Other Side of the Coin, though, I also Recall the Firefighters and Others, Rushing Up *Into* !, the Towers, *To* Rescue People and Otherwise Be of Help! So Both Kinds, once again Abound!

And Finally, I'm Personally into Plain Old, Age Old, Perhaps Less Glamorous, -"What Do you Do in the Woods?!", type Survival ! Anyway and In It's Own Right!

-What you've ever so Learned or Heard About Such back in Scouts! Or Have so Read from Books or Magazines! What you've so Seen, Heard, or Read About in the News! What you've ever so Heard fro Old Dad or Uncle Jim!, Or from People or the Society in General!

I'm Into such Classic, Nuts and Bolts Preparedness and Survival, in it's Own Compelling Calls and Right!, and Not just over various TEOTWAWKI type Possibilities or Concerns! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]martinfocazio[/email]

Hi Martin,

nearly everyone I´ve met in my life did some preparation for "bad times".
The obviously difference is the grade of it´s extent. <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Most people are "PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER." (as Black Ops called them) but even those try to prepare (mostly by Fond-Investment or so <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ).
As we all know it´s impossible to prepare for every thinkable case of desaster/problem/situation and so everone has to decide what her/his main points of interests are depending on what´s expect to happen.
If your home´s near a nuk-powerplant you probably need thyroid blocker, other hand if you live beside a hospital you needn´t necessarily surgical equipment.

To return to the question about your friend´s behavior, I think the serious point is that he seems to look forward to one or more of the described situations !
It´s like an athlete who trains long and hard: One fine day he wants to get the challange to show everyone what he could - and under this sight I´m a "little bit worried" about your friend and his weapons <img src="images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> ...

Don´t get me wrong, I´m a "parnoid freak" even too - but that´s another story ...

greets
Molf

I suppose that whatever extent there's some commonality between our respective preparations, we and the 'survivalists' can learn from one another. I'm not even sure there's a clear distinction between the two camps, beyond an underlying difference in philosophy: we assume that things will ultimately get better, sooner rather than later; the survivalist assumes that things are going to get worse, probably sooner rather than later. As a consequence of this, we tend to focus on a much shorter time scale than does the survivalist, and self-sufficiency isn't a high priority - quite the opposite in fact. We're all about getting back home and/or returning to normality as quickly as possible.

Although i feel that your friend may be "OVERDOING" things a bit , I am more than willing to respect his preparation as long as he respects mine! I wish both of you all the very best when "GO" time arrives

I fall somewhere short of you friend but understand to some degree. I believe he has just taken the idea of a PSK to the next step. A giant leap.

I have more that just a PSK, I have a 72 hour kit. Once I had a 72 hour kit, I worried about the next 72 hours, and the next and the next and the next... Storing supplies is a means to delay destruction of your life style. It provides a warm fuzzy feeling that you can overcome whatever is thrown your way.

The Boy Scouts live by the motto, Be Prepared. In his mind he is living the motto. You probably prepare for a myrid of things, you just have not prepared for the things or to the extent your friend has prepared.

As a member of public safety, I know how both how helpful and how little they can do. I understand you and many of the people you work with head towards danager and feel a need to help others. Not everyone is so inclined.

I have grown weary of all the people who do not take responsibility for their own lifes. They constantly moan how unfair it is that someone else did not protect them enough. There is no guarantee that life is safe. You ridicule your friend for taking personal responsibity for his family. Only a few decades ago, people were riducled for NOT storing food and supplies for months. Now the instant consumer mentality has taken over and degrades those who have foresight to plan ahead.

You probably buy house insurance, medical insurance, and maybe even life insurance just in case. You are paying someone else to be prepared for you. Your friend has decided not to hire others to care for him but rather to care for himself.

The way I see it, these people, like many of us, are gear freaks. They love to collect kit. We all need something to aim for, an excuse to hoard. For us it might be finding the perfect EDC or the do everything outdoor knife, for them it is disaster prep. I find myself doing this sort of thing all the time, imagining senarios (not TEOTWAWKI for me), it makes life more interesting.

I was reading in the newspaper the other day, an ex. army who used to do security, noticed, when walking past a post office, that it would be highly suseptable to crime. He kept thinking about this and, just for fun, started buying gear that could be used to pull it off, a stun gun, CS spray etc. In the end he ended up doing the robbery, but thats irrelevant. He was hoarding and planning, we all have this instinct, and this is how the "survivalists" deal with it.

Thats my opinion anyway.

I think one of the problems of believing the "the end of the world" secarios is that it becomes a vicious circle. The "what if's" are always at the back of your mind, and no matter how much time, money and effort you put into protecting yourself, its never quite enough. As a result of thinking through all the worst senarios, you end up trying to put yourself in a position of total safety - away from everyday life and people, who might if the worst came to the worst, turn against you. In a way its a manifestation of our fear of death.
I can relate to most of the above, however I'm also a realist. We all prepare the best we can, but life is about living, not preparing for some unimaginable catastrophe and a horrific death.
I try and strike a happy balance.
I'm not really sure if that answered your question, but that is my little theory on the mindset of "survivalists". I use that word with caution, and only in relation to my concept of the word - no offence mean't to anyone.

Well, for s***s and giggles, if you wanna talk paranoia, check out this link I just found somewhere...and darn right I will try this out on payday! This knowledge would be worth the $20.

RFID tags in new US currency AKA Another use for Duct Tape

Molf:

If his friend only stored weapons and ammunition, I would be worried because it means he plans to take what he needs if the worst occurs. Since his friend also stores necessaties, I do not worry about him as a threat to others, because I truly believe he views the weapons as a way to prevent the theft of what he has, and not use them to steal from others.

His friend may be "out there", but I would consider him safe toward society as a whole.

Bountyhunter

It's all fuels and weapons...no food, no water.

Some points that came up in the thread on survivalisim:

Morse Code & ham Radio - Not quite dead yet, but like muzzle loaders, butter churns and typwriters, growing less relevant every day:

http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/01/19/1/?nc=1

Neutralize him now!

Bountyhunter

Wow! The Biggie! This is THE question for folks working to prepare themselves for ....

What are the scenarios that you think are likely, What can you do about them, What will others do when these scenarios come-to-pass?

I think that there are some serious minded folks who feel that there is a true potential for a collapse of civilization following some disaster. Pick your scope and scale and you can find examples of this happening locally. Didn't take much to cause the riots in Watts or again in LA after the Rodney King fiasco. There was much disruption and lawlessness following Huricaine Andrew as well.

There are enough nukes in existance and in the hands of one country (Russia) to cause a disaster large enough to really disrupt things. The MAD scenarios of the late '60's are just as possible today as they were then. The only thing to our favor now is the political landscape isn't as polarized as it was then. The physical groundwork for that type of a disaster is still present.

Will there be lawlessness following major disruption - Probably. Will there also be a banding together of individuals within communities to help each other survive - probably. Unfortunately these are not mutually exclusive. The small to medium communities that are formed will defend themselves and there will be impromptu militias formed etc. The scale is the only question. Will they be smallish gangs of thugs roming the destroyed neighborhoods following hurricaine andrew or will they be full batallions of local militia raiding the local national guard armory? I think that there will always be lawless individuals and in times of crises there will be many who follow the law of Might-makes right because it feels safer. The commoner who is looking for safe-haven after the disaster may view the government as the strongest presence - if so then they will continue to attempt to support and re-establish the law and culture we know and love. OTOH if the disaster is sufficiently wide-spread that there becomes a sense of Governmental collapse or resentment toward the Government or simply Governmental absence then anyone with enough fire-power may become the protector of the people. Such locally elected individuals may be good or bad as luck would have it. Bad ones will lead just as surely as good ones and both will become petty tyrants until things stabilize. If this is only a local disturbance then when Fema and the National guard re-appear on the scene these petty tyrants will be deposed and folks will return to normal. If the scenario you are preparing for is on the scale of a full-on M.A.D. nuclear exchange then Fema and the National guard won't be showing up any time soon. In such case the petty tyrants will have sufficient time to establish well armed, demarked and defended fifedoms and that process will be non-gentle to say the least.

Why some folks get a glee in awaiting these scenarios is a complex issue. Some may feel that they are under-represented in the current society and await a total disruption in order to have a chance to "settle the score" They are probably the worst since they are already working to pre-establish thier own fifedoms in expectation of the opportunity. Some religious folks feel that Armagedeon will come and bring Judgement to the evil-doers and they can't wait for the Rapture. These are more-or-less harmless since they don't expect to have to survive through it they are mostly excited to be going on to "Whereever" their God has in store for them. BTW these religious folks aren't anything new. All the messianic religions share this prophecy and it was the failure of Christ to bring armegedeon that resulted in the larger body of Jewish folks deciding that he wasn't the Messiah. Christians still hold the hope that Christ will come back and start the Apocalypse even after he proved that his entire existance was about forgiveness and sacrafice. (I diverge widely and probably offend)


In anycase, There certainly are scenarios within the physical realm of possibility that could totally disrupt entire countries. The fact that the US is so physically large makes it hard for us to visualize this possibility but it is just such a blow that the Soviets planned and prepared to deliver and their weaponry is still sufficiently large enough to deal such a blow. There are probably also weather and geological events that could have the same impact on local scale and shorter time-frame. When the enforcement arm of the government is absent the lawless will have a larger impact on our lives than they do while they are kept busy hiding from the polliceman. Don't be niave enough to believe that there aren't lawless elements in our society that are kept somewhat controled by the presence of the policeman on the corner. Also don't ignore preparing for the impact of increased lawlessness in the wake of any disaster that removes or weakens the presence of the police officer.

If you think that the chances of a particular scenario are low enough that you don't want to prepare for it then put your cash and energy somewhere else. Whether that scenario is asteroid impact, MAD nuclear exchange, Train full of toxic waste derailment in your neighborhood, living through your next 757 trip over the atlantic and finding yourself in the water alive - Whatever the scenario it is wiser to fully evaluate the potential likelyhood and full consequences than to just ignore the issue and dispense with it by saying that those you have spoken to about it are Kooks. There are many who think I am quite a bit eccentric for carrying a tarp with me everywhere in my vest. Oh well! I was at a school cookout and there were more folks that picnic tables - My family was happily situated on the blanket we had brought when one of our friends came up and found that they would have to sit on the ground directly. I happily produced my extra tarp from the back of my vest and got the expected comments for all the silly gear I carry - But they were glad to not have to sit directly on the ground. If I find myself lost while taking a walk or if I have to walk home the same route that takes me an hour to drive in my daily commute I will be able to find a dry place to sleep and stay warm and fed with what's in my pockets. Others might be somewhat put out to accomplish the same. Do I expect to have to walk home - no but it could happen. Do I expect to have to use the spring-loaded center punch to get out of my car - no but it could happen. Do I expect there to be a M.A.D. nuclear exchange in my lifetime - no but it could happen.

FWIW, I don't expect a "flashbulb" over-njght catastrophe to occur, I think the problem is already building. Rome was the greatest power on Earth... it didn't fall in a day. Spain and Britain are examples of other "World Powers" that fell by the wayside, and a brief study of World history turns up more. The biggest falls the hardest, and while I hate to say it, I think Lady Liberty is on her way down to the ground. Whenever a World Power has fallen in the past, it was felt throughout civilization, but the higher up the ladder, the worse it hurt. I really don't think there's too much that a single person or (small) group can do to stop it, the best that one can hope for is to be "out of the way" of the fall. That's why my personal mind-set has gone from "Dig in and hold on" to "get out of harm's way before the stinky stuff hits the fan". While I do practice a common sense (I hope) plan for short term preparedness, my long term "Survival" plan includes getting away from the mainland U S before I and my Loved ones get taken out by the day to day bedlam that is considered "normal, every day life" here (or most other places for that matter). A motor-sailer in the Carribbean, staying away from higher population "hot spots", seems to be the best idea I can come up with for now, but I'm open to suggestions.

Please feel free to shoot some holes in my theory, I've never learned a thing from someone that I totally agreed with.

Troy

The Less Populous parts of the Carribean, Backed by Boat Capability, is Excellent.

But a Caution and Downside of "Small Island Survival" or Bugout, Comes to Mind.

And that's that All that a Powerful Enuf Enemy would Have to Do!, is to Land a Small Marine Force, Toward Finding you!

As a Hypothetical Red Chinese Run Show could be!, for one Chooseing a Pacific Island to Survive and Lay Low on!

A Small Island Does Not Give one Much Maneauvering Room! And in some cases, Not All that Many Resources!

Look How Easily a Determined and Searching Enemy could Find you!, and On their Cheap!

"We Know / Think He's on This Island somewhere!, and We're Gonna Find / Get Him!"

[color:"black"] [/color] [email]wildcard163[/email]

Thanks for the feedback, that's what the boat's for, I don't plan on spending more time on land that at sea.

I Hear You, but Make Sure you're Out in Time, Before those kind of Forces Put Up a Naval Blockade, Round the Whole Island you happen to be On! If Not on an Island, but Rather on your Boat, -Make Sure that That!, Doesn't get Located either! Otherwise, I Do Hear your Point! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]wildcard163[/email]

Not to mentoin, I don't exactly think a middle aged guy with a smallish boat is going to be a high priority target.

I Guess He would Not be! I Hate to Put In a Small Tone of Disagreement again!, But What if the Patrol Boat Commander Orders his Crew to nevertheless "Search that Middle Aged Man and his Boat for Whatever He may've Got!" Plenty of Innocent Looking People have been Known to be Good Smugglers! He may Have Had Experience with these kinds of Things Before, back on the South China Sea or Somewhere! Or Be Under Orders Himself from a Higher Up, Who Has!I Find it Hard to Beleive, that he and his Crew wouldn't Find Something of Our's, on our Such Boats. An Innocent Appearance is Great!, We Have to Do It, in such Situations. But Mid Agers and Other Innocents or Innocent Appearers, Do Sometimes get Searched! So Try to Avoid their Pulling Up to you in the First Place!, by Being Outta There!, in the First Place! Shud Worse Come to Worse, and you Havn't Gotten Out in Time!, They Pull Up, Demand a Search!.....Then you'll just Have to Sit Cool and Tight, Wing It, Keep Up Appearances, and Hope For the Best! May you Successfully Pull it Off!

But I'd Scat!, Before they ever Pulled Up to me!, or Ringed the Island!

I'd Go for a Larger Island, or a Continental Area!

It's Good to Stay Near the Water though! Even Here!

The Point may yet Come where I say, "I Have No Further Difference!", or "You're Right." But if you Keep Wanting to Chance It with such a Naval or Coastal Blockade!, I'm Afraid that thats Not Coming any Time Soon! <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

While Not Shying from Difference, I Look Forward to Not Having to somewhat Disagree. I'm like some Asians and Others,-That Makes me Nervous!

Still, I'm also Nervous about Chanceing Small Islands and Naval Blockades! Even Being Caught Alone in such a Small Boat! Now if you Can Keep Successfully Evading in such a Craft!, Then Fine!.....! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]wildcard163[/email]

Just out of curiosity, will you be taking any cats on board? If so, will they risk becoming high priority targets? <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ed

Reminds me of the (probably true) story about the rich guy at the beginning of WW2. Looked far and wide for a place to be safe. Decided on the Pacific Ocean, far from the european difficulties. Moved to a small island group called the Solomon Islands. Nice little place named Guadalcanal.

There is no safe harbor, but mobility might help in escaping the local problem. That is one of the reasons we have wheels on our house.

Tried the boat idea. It is much more difficult (and expensive) than it appears.

As to the likelyhood of some large event. I worked with some folks from Germany that were well off (middle class, mechanical engineers) before the war and survived by eating grass and small rodents. They had no idea that their modern and comfortable life could possibly be so disrupted. First time I went over to their house, they pointed out their need to have food stuck in every corner. They knew it seemed odd, but just could not help themselves. Empty space, fill it with a can. Their stories had quite an impact on me.

I do plan for such an event, but the majority of my effort along that line goes for much more likely events. The more likely the more effort.

Nomad.

True, but the Disruptions of WW 2 might Not have Seemed so Likely to your German Acquaintences!, Before that Fact of the War. This is just some Appropriate Food for Thot. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]Nomad[/email]

Hadn't much thought about a cat, but after Chris's last post, I might have to give more thought to including a "Rat patrol", or would "Rat repell boarder" be a better term? <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Troy

I think I will just head for Canada, then I will be the only one with a gun. I always wanted my own country.

We don't need guns, we got Mounties <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />