Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now

Posted by: Craig

Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 01/29/04 01:46 PM

The insanity continues:
Matches, lighters on planes too risky?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 01/29/04 02:29 PM

The only way to gurantee that someone won't try to blow up a passenger plane is to not let anyone on there in the first place. <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, a bit irreverent, but if I don't laugh I think I might have to cry... <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Craig

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 01/29/04 06:14 PM

I agree.
Posted by: billvann

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 01/30/04 05:18 PM

Of course we could take this to its next logical step. Our most valuable survival tool is also our most dangerous and lethal weapon... our brain. Apparently the TSA folks have already checked theirs at the gate. <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 01/30/04 08:19 PM

I'd like to see the guards try and prevent someone from smuggling a match onboard. You could hide one anywhere.
Posted by: coylh

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 01/31/04 12:34 AM

The solution to the problem is not fewer weapons on the planes, but more weapons. How sucessful is a terrorist going to be when there are 200 other passengers armed with TSA issued handguns?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 01/31/04 01:48 PM

Exactly. When they started confiscating knives I made that point- I'd feel much safer if they handed out free steak knives to passengers as they board the plane, like they used to do in gas stations.

There are so many fallacies here it's hard to narrow it down, but a basic one is that, since good people still vastly outnumber bad, one clear way to promote evil is to make sure that good people are helpless to stop it. We seem to be doing our best.

The TSA is committed to this increasingly-insane path, and they CANNOT abandon it, because it's a microcosm of the government's approach to society as a whole. They cannot ever admit that it won't work, no matter how glaringly obvious it becomes, because it then also becomes obvious that all the other government policies that criminalize people's efforts to defend themselves don't work either, and never have.

If... I hate to say it, but "when"... all this nonsense of confiscating nail clippers and penknives fails to stop another major attack, they will redouble their useless efforts, and move them into more and more areas of our lives. Look for any disagreement with, and then any questioning of the policies, to be labeled first "aiding terrorism", and then just "terrorist". If it goes on long enough, "enforcement" will be increasingly focused not on those seeking to victimize innocents, but on those who question their authority.

I don't know how this is going to fall out in the end, but when the enforcement agencies are increasingly, irrevokably committed to something that cannot work, people are going to get hurt.
Posted by: bountyhunter

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 01/31/04 05:37 PM

I am a gun owner and I do not agree with the issuance of guns to airline passengers because you are likely to encounter more mentally unstable people than you are hijackers on an airplane. You also have to understand the mechanics of guns or you will do more harm than good.

I would like to see them issue and retrieve knives with 3" to 4" very sharp blades to each passenger on every aircraft.

Try to imagine a full sized male hijacker trying to take over a plane load of little people (I believe "little" is the politcally correct term.) whose knife hands can not reach above his beltline.

If he lived, he would never sing "ALTO" again, would grow soft pectorals, lose facial hair, and have a generally more agreeable disposition.

Bountyhunter
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 01/31/04 05:43 PM

I totally agree on the insanity that this has all reached, but I'm not sure that issuing knives is the answer. If this were done, it may reduce the likelyhood of a highjacking, but, the high number drunken fights that end with the perpotrator(s) being restrained, could end up being a lot worse. i.e. a stabbing. If the aggressor had a knife in his hands, I don't think he'd hessitate to use it.

Just my view.
Posted by: bountyhunter

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 01/31/04 05:58 PM

Ditchfield:

Mad Men and criminals will do what they do no matter how much you try to control them.

I don't know your age, but I see you live in a country where self-defence with weapons is against the law. I was born in a refugee camp in Eboli, Italy to Serbian parents in 1946. My heritage makes knives not a tool or a weapon, but merely an extension of my birthright. I am an American citizen who grew up here from the age of five years old. My heritage in Europe, and my education in the United States tells me when the masses all have the same weapons, the Mad Men, terrorists, and yes even drunks are going to be more careful about what they try to do.

Bountyhunter
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 01/31/04 08:16 PM

Yes, you are right. I am biased and the whole country have been brainwashed by the government. I, however do view blades in the same way as you, and carry them and cherish them. Our laws are very restrictive, but I routinely carry a fixed bladeas I live in the country and have a valid excuse.

I thank you for your reply. Nice to know the circumstances of some of the forumites.
Posted by: ki4buc

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 02/03/04 01:44 PM

"Survival of the Fittest"

Kind of funny how the safety of one individual takes precedence over the freedom of a million people. If there was more self-respect, and respect of others, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It would be understood that everyone knows how to handle weapons appropriately. If they did not, they would pay the consequences, right then and there. You are also responsible for your defense. You must also realize there are things beyond your control.

Remember the catch phrase "Continue with your life, or the terrorists would have won"? Now, exactly how does that phrase fit in to 10 international flights getting cancelled from Europe to here? Hmm... perhaps they should have kept their mouths shut, and given the planes a secret fighter escort. But, alas, I'm not the president.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 02/03/04 03:19 PM

I think that it is necessary to remember that our liberties and freedoms end at at the extend of our arms and don't extend into the reach of others.

I agree that if everyone was trained, armed and ready to defend themselves we would have fewer crimes and much more respect for each other. OTOH, there are fools of all kinds. I don't mind being in the open and having to face the eventuality of an armed fool (since I am armed and prepared for the threat). In an airplane or even a boat, where the foolishness of one individual mis-handling their tools or the evilness of one individual intent upon reckless and catastrophic suicide can obliterate all, including thousands on the ground, I am a little more cautious about my indignant cries of outrage over my curtailed liberties. I would not be nearly so offended if I thought that they were doing anywhere near the same level of scrutiny to the luggage and cargo that gets stuffed on board. When an individual can send himself as air cargo without being discovered, I am much more offended at them taking away my nail file.

I don't currently have any needs that require me to travel by air. I avoid doing so as much as possible. I have traveled by air once since that fateful day in 2001 when the USA woke up to the reality that the rest of the world has known for decades if not centuries. I didn't enjoy the harrassment and I didn't feel any more safe because of it.

I really am concerned about the increasing level of surveilance being applied to our daily lives. Everything from member discount cards at the grocery store to Fast-lane tracking devices in our autos to street corner cameras and face recognition software to biometric tracing of foreign nationals (which system can be used covertly without any modifications against our own citizenry and in violation of many of our constitutional rights and liberties.) These issues seem to get lost in all the smoke and noise surrounding the much more visible and annoying - though much less troubling - harrassment surrounding air travel.
Posted by: joblot

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 02/03/04 10:32 PM

"Everything from member discount cards at the grocery store..."

On that one small point alone, I recall an article in a magazine a few weeks ago, where it likened having a discount card for a supermarket to having a barcode stamped accross your forehead.
It gave an example of a man, having tripped and hurt himself in a supermarket tries to claim for damages. Apparently the shop involved checked his "history" from his discount card, and accused him, in private, that judging from the amount of alcohol he had bought recently (a period of several months) mean't he probably had an alcohol problem and that he was more than likely to have been drunk when he tripped.
The supermarket later backed down and denied that it had made that accusation.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 02/04/04 02:24 AM

I personally think that it's a crock to give substantial discounts to select customers simply because they apply for a card that allows you to play "Big Brother" with their purchase history. The enticement of large savings can be powerful, though. I bagged over $1000 last year alone. I just used a fake name, address, etc on the card application. I've never had my ID checked when using a store card. They play their games, I play mine.

Ed
Posted by: bountyhunter

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 02/04/04 05:24 PM

eodman:

That works great if you pay strictly by cash.

Bountyhunter
Posted by: turnsouth

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 02/05/04 01:03 AM

>If it goes on long enough, "enforcement" will be increasingly focused not on those seeking to victimize innocents, but on those who question their authority.


To see this in action try to correct a TSA employee on what is legal to carry onto an commercial airliner.

Paul
"When the only ones who have any weapons are the government and criminals, we've lost..."
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 02/05/04 04:11 PM

Quote:
The enticement of large savings can be powerful, though. I bagged over $1000 last year alone.


Isn't marketing wonderful. Here you are comfortably assured that you saved $1000 over the "normal retail price" and are gladly loyal to this store.

By this one ruse (raising their "normal retail price by say 2% and then providing a gimic loyalty card with a 5% discount) they have established a loylty relationship with you that you are happy to rationalize and protect - even if you are dishonest about your identity. They no longer need worry about the competition because you are "their loyal customer". They don't worry about their variety and selection, their quality or their prices as much as they used to because they are your friend and you are happy to save $1000 over their inflated "normal retail" price. Once established, this relationship completely undercuts competition and reduces the pressure to innovate, supply better products or wider selections. Why should you bother even going into a competitors store to discover the new items "your" store doesn't carry? - After all you have this nice discount card from "your" store and you get a great price because of it.

In reality, you may be getting a decent price against the actual market beyond "your" store but you have no incentive to go out and investigate it and discover the truth. Grocery stores normally run at margins less than 10% so no matter what your store isn't giving you that sort of a break with their loyalty card. But having established the loyalty relationship they have less incentive to control their costs and keep you prices down.

Another result of loyalty programs is that the store knows with statistical certainty what is bought without regard to price. Since they know that the individuals who will buy the pricy cuts of meat undiscounted will also buy (for example) organic wheat thin crackers they can easily say" we don't need the bottom customers so we won't market the inexpensive alternatives since we can sell primarily high margin alternatives and still make the same money. By knowing with greater certainty the relationships between the items that they sell they can cater more specifically to the folks with bigger wallets - good for them! I'd do the same in their position. Unfortunately for all customers, rich and poor, this limits the variety in the store. By limiting the variety in the store there is a limitation on the value of innovation at the Mfg. Etc.
Posted by: M_a_x

Re: Lighters, matches on planes under scrutiny now - 02/05/04 05:37 PM

You put this very well. Some time ago I read an article that stated that in most shops with loyalty programs you actually pay an average of 2 to 5% more even after raking in your discount. I found items up to 30% more expensive (without the discount) in shops with such a program. I donīt buy in shops where they charge me extra for not invading my privacy. So maybe those shops make me a loyal customer to their competition.