Knife possesion in the 21st century!

The thread about fire starting got me to thinking about the public's view on knife possession.

Way, way back when I was a kid, we all had knives. Penknives, pocket knives, small fixed blade knives, and we carried them everwhere; in schools, banks, Government buildings, post offices, police stations, and friends houses. Nobody thought anything bad about it unless it was one of those "Gangster" style Italian switchblades which were outlawed from import to the USA in 1956.

Today, if a youngster were to carry a small penknife, they are immediately branded as strange, after all, why does a child carry a knife if he/she is not out to hurt someone? I still carry a 3" or smaller (due to State of Wisconsin laws about blade size.) bladed knife everywhere but places where they have metal detectors, and I have yet to turn into an American "Jack the ripper".

My biggest use for my knives over the entire length of my life so far is to clean my fingernails, strip wire, cut string, and make toothpicks when I don't have one handy.

We can be as innocent as newborn babies, but we have to change our current societies perceptions about certain activities and habits, or we will all be guilty by default.

It is tough being a youngster today who wants to learn and possess practical items that society has deemed are anti-social simply by their possesion.

Bountyhunter

I also have been carrying a knife all of my life. And at age 65, I just can’t seem to give up the habit. The problem is that we are nomads. Sometimes we are in California, sometimes in Maine and everywhere in between.

I keep a leatherman on my belt most of the time. I get weird stares when I cut string at Home Depot (it is a TOOL folks!). But I also keep rather larger knife tools in my backpack. And Sometimes I forget what I have where.

For instance I was about to enter a museum in Chicago, after living in the desert for a few months. As usual, as we began our walk, I grabbed the pack from behind the seat. It is an automatic motion, I hardly think about it. Besides the extra water, a few MRE’s and such, there is a Becker BK-10 and a Benchmade folder. It was only as I entered the large museum doors and was confronted with the stern looking security guy with his metal detector did I even think about the knives, but then I broke into a sweat.

Fortunately for me, there was a baggage check system before the security check and I quietly checked all my “dangerous weapons” (including the leatherman) before being wanded by the security guy.

The world is different place. And I for one am having a bit of a problem with it all. People can’t start fires; they shy away from any knife sharper than the one they use to butter their bread. And guns…. Well you must be some sort of nut if you possess a gun, much less carry one.

As we left Maine in ’97 at the beginning of our wandering, I noticed the fences along the interstates. To keep the animals off the road I was told. Then I noticed fences were everywhere. Especially at routes would use to escape to the woods. All the roads were blocked and it was beginning to be difficult to leave the populated areas. I began to feel like a dog in a kennel. A big kennel, but a kennel, never the less.

So we have made a quest out of finding places that are not under the stringent control of those that must take care of us. It is harder and harder to find such places. We manage to dig our way under the fence, and run wild a bit, but …. Well we seem to always find another fence in our way.

Now the fences are becoming less tangible, but with the same effect. They stop us from being responsible for our own safety, they make us more dependent on those who must take care of us.

Most of the older civilized world has a much stricter policy than ours. I understand the in England and most of Europe, carrying a knife like my BK-10, or Benchmade would be a serious mistake. I fear we are traveling the same road. And I am stumbling a bit as I make my way.

I guess if you never had the freedom, you don’t miss it.

As a teenager, I could blow a stump with dynamite, I could operate heavy equipment, I could ride a horse by myself for long distances in remote areas. We all did that sort of thing, (Male and female I might add), And sometimes we got seriously hurt. But we did what we did and nobody said we could not.

If you did have the freedom, …..then you miss it terribly.

So it is not just the knife in this modern world, it is the whole tightening of the system about our freedom. It is being done by well meaning people who are afraid of each other. I guess I can’t find fault with being afraid, I have had many moments of terror in my life. They have to do what they have to do. But so do I, and that is where the problem begins.

Amen Bountyhunter,

I am 36, and have been carrying a pocket knife for as long as I can remember. I still have memories of the day my dad bought me my first real pocket knife. I was probably 11 or 12 and it was sort of a coming of age thing. It was my dad’s way of telling me that I was old enough to be trusted.
I have carried a knife of varying size, shape and use every day of my life since then, After dressing it is the first thing that goes into my pocket.
These days it is difficult. I have had to check my knife at a museum in CA and the Empire State Bldg in NY. I carry a Chris Reeve Sm Sebenza now and since it was not what one would call a cheap knife I have even needed to cancel plans and leave a place when I realized that they had no way to check my blade and simply expected to confiscate it.
I don’t know, I have a hard time imagining myself with out a knife in my pocket but it feels more and more like a dying practice.

I worked as a bag boy for a big store while going through college. One night the lead cashier asked me to help him load a large item and tie it to the top of their car (people should drive trucks not cars, but thats a different topic). Once we tied it on the car and wrapped some string around it he started trying to cut the string with office type scissors and wasn't making much progress. I pulled put my little 2" pocket knife and easily cut the string. Once the customer the lead told me if he saw it again he would tell security I was carrying a weapon. I couldn't get it throught his head that it was a tool not a weapon. Had similar experience with my leatherman, used to use it all the time to fix printers but every now and then some secretary would pull back in fear because they saw a shiny pair of pair of pliers. My wife grew up in the city where they didn't normally carry guns and knives unless you were a gang member. She was afraid at first but now carries her own leatherman micra after borrowing my wave so many times. She still thinks if you have a gun in your house it means someone will auomatically break in and use your gun against you so I still have some educating to do.

We went to an even in Center City. We were informed by large signs that we were surrendering all rights by entering. No one seemed to care. We were frisked and wanded.

My Vic MiniChamp caused a great deal of consternation. I was scolded by one the women pawing through my private belongings. Afterwards, when I attempted to complain about this to the family members I was with, I was unsympathetically told I should have known better. Why would I need a knife in Center City? I simply shut up.

[begin sarcasm] Indeed, why would anyone need a knife in a big city. God knows nothing ever happens in a city and we are all safe as houses.[end sarcasm]

I don't attend many events anymore. In my mind, the terrorists of 9/11 have succeeded. They have instilled terror in our society that will easily last a generation or more.

As a side effect from increasing population people are more inclined to do physical violence. Because it´s not socially acceptable they refrain from doing so. Hence they assume that a person who carries a blade is more likely to act violently . It´s not easy to change the perception of the society under those conditions.
I usually carry a Buck Crosslock in a pouch on my belt. I don´t care too much about other people´s reactions to that. I don´t go to events where the audience can´t be trusted to carry a pocket knife and let people know about that. Data supports that attitude. You can frequently read about fights at events where people are not allowed to bring a blade but you don´t get news from fights at events where virtually everyone carries a knife. When you take in account that there is a bias against knives that´s even more revealing.

There's so much I could say in this thread that I don't know where to start.

I've been a confirmed "knife nut" since I was about seven years old that I can remember... and that was a long time ago. I can tell you for sure that we are born, not raised- my mother has always abhorred anything remotely weapon-like, my father was not an outdoorsman by any means (both my grandfathers were, but I barely knew them), and never owned a gun or a "real" knife to my knowledge. I had no older siblings, so I became a knife nut, a camper, a backpacker, and eventually a shooter with no family guidance or encouragement at all- quite the contrary.

When I was too young to undestand the value of discretion ("camouflage") the knives got me in trouble more than once... in later years, they got me out of worse trouble more than once.

Unlike some, I've always understood, even as a child, that a knife is potentially a weapon as well as a tool, and I make no apologies for carrying one with that in mind. I've been a responsible armed citizen for enough decades now that I'm tired of trying to justify it to those who will never understand. The idea that the need to defend yourself, and your loved ones, can be legislated out of existence is just ludicrous... it's as basic as life itself. However, in today's society (especially here in the suburbs of a major city), I would not consider revealing a larger-than-tiny knife to cut string or open a box in public... IMHO, that's asking for trouble in today's PC America. I carry a Leatherman Micra, or a Vic classic or similar, just so that I will never have to reveal what else I may have on my person for so trivial a purpose.

For some reason, though I have a LOT of knives, I've been on something of an axe/hatchet kick recently, and an article I came across on that subject mentioned that there are many, many fewer laws about carrying hatchets and tomahawks than there are about knives- an interesting thought, expecially since there are some very sweet small hatchets out there that can do most things a knife can, and, in wooded areas, maybe more.

One parting point- those "knife nuts" out there who are also interested in survival, but have never read Robert A. Heinlein's "Tunnel in the Sky", are missing a real treat. It's one of his "juvenile" novels, but in Heinlein's case that doesn't imply condescension- his "juvenile" characters are as competent as his adults. The story is based around a high-school survival course's final exam, set in the future, and may have been written partly as a rebuttal to Fielding's "Lord of the Flies". It's one of my favorite novels, and may be my all-time favorite "survival" novel. Yes, I've read some of Gary Paulsen's books. This is better.

Presumed Lost:

I read the same Heinlien book, and I recall its name as "Gateway to the Stars".

I am currently 57 years old, and I wonder if they changed the name before I read it or before you read it.

I like the rationalization that the main characters older sister gave him reqarding weaponery for his final exam.

It is a great book, but I did not like anything Heinlien wrote after the adult sex adventures started interfereing with the science fiction in his books.

Bountyhunter

I don't feel 9-11 was the cause of all the fear of tools <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> My knife incidents were all pre 9-11. 9-11 was another symptom of the problem, i.e. is people were not afraid of a small sharp object then the terrorists would not have been successful.

BountyHunter,

Well, I don't remember ever seeing it by that name. I have a copy that dates from the '60s, and it's still in print as "Tunnel" (although with a spectacularly stupid cover illustration):

Amazon link

I remember Rod's lesson from his sister well, I even have it stored in my Palm, along with some of Deacon Matson's advice.

I know what you mean about some of the later writing. Heinlein went through some very distinct "periods" in his work, and some of it was just bad, sorry to say. People who get exposed to that writing first tend to dismiss him entirely. Without going into detail, there were apparently health reasons for the changes, and there are exceptions. Within "Time Enough for Love", aside from the immortal "Notebooks of Lazarus Long" that get quoted every day, there is "Dora's Song", which is a fascinating and fairly detailed study of pioneering and wilderness survival. And, of course, there's "Farnham's Freehold". Even such little-recognized writings as "Farmer in the Sky", "Red Planet" and "Coventry" had strong survival themes.

Eugene:

You are so right about that. I never thought of it, but from now on whenever someone mentions the silliness of my fondness for knives, or even guns, I am going to use your example. I'm glad you didn't copyright it as with the amount of argueing I do concerning my beliefs, I'd probably go broke paying you.

Bountyhunter

Im 16 and I carry a knife. I wouldn't dream of leaving my house without my Swisscard (lite) and Benchmite. What is funny is how everyone shuns the fact that you carry a knife, yet when they need it your the first one they come too.

I, too am 16 and always carry a knife. Unfortunately (for my wallet and under payed casual worker student budget) I am becomeing a 'knife knut'.
I loath these laws and luckily I live in the countryside where I can carry knives to my hearts content <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.
College is another matter, and when I am not with my friends I have taken to listening to 'Ray Mears, Real Heroes of Telemark' on minidisk, so I am whisked off to the Norweigien mountains <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Up the revolution.

Wow, I said something useful for once. I had to go back and read my post to see what it was <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hate these stupid laws too. You shouldn't have to walk in fear of your tools getting confiscated any more than you should have to walk in fear of getting robbed, murdered, whatever. Pre-9-11 I was pretty brave. I used to do warranty repair on HP printers, the big 5si/8000/8100 that you can't take into a shop you have to repair onsite. I used to go into .gov buildings and had to empty my pockets for the metal detector. I filled three trays once and backed up the line. Once a security guard picked up my leatherman and said something about a knife and a lady security guard said "its a leatherman, its OK". One time they started to say I would have to leave it and I then asked if they were going to provide me with pliers to do my job so they let me through. I had to go into a prison once where they had a library with a few pc's connected to the internet and a printer for the inmates to use. I emptied my pockets into the bins and was told I would have to take that back to my car. This was before I had my leatherman, just a little knife. I picked up the knife and started to go back out and they said no the cell phone, not the knife! I had a good laugh after that, why allow a knife and not a cell phone? It just goes to show the people who make the rules/laws are so out of touch with reality.

Paul810:

I had a similar experience in the sixties during some civil disturbances (politically correct nomenclature for "RIOTS") here in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The Mayor put a lock on all gas stations, liquor stores, and gun shops.

I used to work at the Falk Corporation which made a lot of gear drives for the Military. When I went to work after the Mayor locked down the gun stores, I was surrounded at my lathe station by all kinds of co-workers who knew I was a weapons owner and offered to buy guns from me at any price I quoted. A lot of them were the very people who considered me weird for owning so many different weapons. I didn't sell anything to anyone for two reasons; 1) I would have violated laws concerning dealing in weapons without a dealers license, and 2), and more important, I didn't want to sell any guns to knee-jerk reactionaries that might hurt others or themselves by buying out of immediate fear and not personal interest in guns.

A lot of people quit considering me weird after that and came by for advice and help after the Mayor lifted the orders three days later, and people could buy through gun shops.

Bountyhunter

All i can really add is that i agree with everyone's opinions in this thread.

The laws and views of most people i come across day to day has become absolutely ridiculous...which leads me to ask
why we are sometimes viewed as "terrorists" or criminals because we carry a knife and/or multitool?...it makes no sense

thanx

We terrorize the small minds of those that are uneducated.

Reading these posts puts chills up my spines. I live in Louisiana, where knife laws are relatively lax. I am a college student (knives with blades up to 5 inches are allowed at my school) and I never leave the house without my Leatherman Wave and Benchmade AFCK. I bring both because they are so important as tools. Even though the AFCK is equipped with a pocket-clip, I still carry it in a sheath. I figure if its in a sheath, next to my Leatherman, on my belt--then its not a "concealed weapon". What a cop thinks of this---I'm not sure. But I'm really not trying to hide it. No one can even tell I'm carrying knives, my t-shirt covers the pouches up. Most people probably think its my cell phone or something.
I am still choosy about where I bring my knives because discretion is 90% of knife users' problems. I know where I can get away with it and where I can't. Also, only take a knife out when you need it, don't play around and don't open it up really quickly for a mundane task like cutting jute twine or opening a box. There's nothing quite like the "click" of a tactical folder to make people nervous. You'll be labeled as a "Rambo" in a minute. I sometimes carry a little Victorinox Recruit; if someone needs to borrow a knife. Its less intimidating and if they run off with it or lose it, its not a big deal.

It's a cool sunday morning here in Oregon and I'm sitting at the computer holding my "Tactical Caffiene Transfer Unit" up in the air in a toast to you guys on this topic of knives. Like many normal folks I grew up using knives and axes (good thinking Presumed Lost) as a matter of normal day to day living. I had to attend a University to learn some people didn't just not shoot firearms but actually disliked them. You think these people would be understanding about knives? You know the answer. Now I see the entire school system devoted to teaching kids that they are above getting their hands dirty to make a living. The wood, metal and auto shops are being eliminated in this state at a high rate of speed. Funny but as I look around there is still a whole lot of hard physical work that needs to get done to keep us fed, clothed and sheltered. It's the edged tool that makes this world useful to us humans and I'm talking about drill bits, saw blades and milling cutters too. Those for whom everything is provided have the luxury to condemn those who provide. This may be the source of some of our problems with perceptions about knives. Also someone in this thread said something about not flicking knives open in public. RIGHT ON! At the shows I attend as a knifemaker we have a lot of folks that are not knife nuts too. I always open any folder slowly and with the blade pointed towards me when showing a knife. I've seen too many "stupid knife tricks" and the effect they have on other people watching. Keep up the great thinkng here. One last thing, I work with my hands fairly hard (this doesn't make me unique) and am at least half strong. There are soft packaged food bags that I can't get open without a knife, am I the only one with this problem?

i got a small SAK, a wenger exsecutive to be pricise. Small enought to not draw attantion. At work i carry a big folder and i flick it open wenn i need it. Holding a sealing device, espectially with a new roll of plastic above mine head with one arm, will lead to knife flicking ! mine arm gets pretty tired quite fast, wenn doing thing is slowmotion !

Bill:

I am so glad to hear that I am not the only adult (Them young un's can open anything) that has trouble getting those plastic containers open. I work with my hands in HVAC-R, and was beginning to think I was getting prematurely weak.

Bountyhunter

I just bought a bought the book "Bushcraft" by Mors Kochanski. He recommends the classic Mora knife, but he makes an interesting point - he prefers the traditional knife without a guard, pointing out that unless you're trying to stab someone, the guard is just in the way.

Maybe we can use a trivia fact like that to educate the public (assuming you use a knife without a guard, that is). If somebody accuses you of having a "weapon", you could point out that "Oh, no, this is a carving/whittling knife, it'd be pretty useless as a weapon." (and then wait for them to ask why). Now, it probably wouldn't hold up in a court of law, and there are always going to be people who are irrevocably convinced that carrying anything with a blade makes you Jack the Ripper. And I wouldn't go flashing a 4" Mora around in the hopes of "educating" somebody. But it just might enable you to start up a "meaningful dialogue" with someone and open their eyes to the fact that not everyone who carries a knife is a terrorist or a criminal (and that terrorists or criminals are far more likely to carry a knife that is specially designed for combat, not a Mora or a Sebenza or a CRK that's designed for camping or Scouting activities).

And as an aside, I would say "camping", not "survival", because of the negative connotations of the latter.

Just my humble 2 cents worth. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The Swedish Foreign minister was murdered less than a month ago with a mora clipper. But don't tell the PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. that <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Bountyhunter, If I understand your job, you get to work with metals, plastics and electrical wiring, all under time pressure. Thanks for the note on the bags, that can be frustrating when we put enough horsepower on the plastic to get it open then spray coat the whole kitchen, car, shop, with the contents. I'm not even allowed to open cereal boxes around here anymore because of what happens when those suckers finally come apart. Bill

Bill:

For those unfamiliar with the term "HVAC-R", it stands for "Heating, Ventilating, Air Conditioning, and Refrigeration" technician. We are lucky in our field as the suppliers of parts we use, use fairly easy to open bags. I have started to cut back on potato chips and some other products that use bags and plastics that could possibly be layered and used as bullet resistant vests because of their ability to defy opening. One of my favorite gripes is "Oscar Mayer" lunch meats packed in those "peel back resealable" plastic containers. I always face a wall when opening those as peeling them off the wall is easier than peeling them off the kitchen floor.

Bountyhunter

Bountyhunter! You found the winner, the Oscar Mayer resealable meat packets! I didn't think I can get into one barehanded and I remember this well because I brought some on our trip last August into the Steens mountain wilderness. Now the resealable part was important since it was a few hours drive to the nearest grocery so I didn't just skin it out with a knife but tried to open it as intended. That sucker won the tough award! Next time I will stand and face a tree. Bill

Really?
I have a mora clipper......
These are really good multipurpose tools! <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Those whackos can use anything to kill anyone, beer bottles, chairs, chinese choppers...........

I agree.
SAKs and small ones at that are best for PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER......and for loaning......

<img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LOL!
<img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

it always amuses me the kind of reaction that some people give you in response to the fact that you might carry a knife at all, let alone have one on you right now, even people how carry knives themselves are shocked to see a knife they might not be familiar with. a while back i got a 1955 vintage british army knife, its got a 2.5inch sheepsfoot and a hook shaped can opener, and one of the blokes at work says"thats a nasty looking knife" after he was talking about carring a large opinel! my girlfriend bought me a SAK(huntsman) for a pressie the other day so i carry that all the time now, at least its not only leagle, but most people seem ok with them as well.
hohum
sc

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http://authentic-strivectin.netfirms.com/

Nothing like having a line free face after a hard day of fighting off mountain lions and bears.

Gee wilikers, I never knew so much vanity existed in the out back.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Wow, what a bunch of crap. Who let this guy in the forum? There goes the neighborhood.

Just a warning not to click on these links. It's an ad for face cream. I thought I would save everybody some time until his post is (hopefully) deleted.

Regards, Vince

Norad45:

The guy is just trying to get some FACE TIME free.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It would bother me less, but this sleaze was in a response to MY post...

Hate to see it here.

Presumed_Lost:

In advertising, I have heard it said that the messages you remember most often and the longest are the ones you really love, and the ones you really hate.

If his message bothers you too much, he will have succeeded. Laugh it off and let Chris & Doug decide what to do with his message and his membership.

It is an obvious commercial ploy, and unless we hear otherwise, the ploy was not pre-approved. He probably read about how busy Doug & Chris are these days and took advantage of the situation.

And this too shall pass.

Bountyhunter

I hear ya... didn't succeed that way, I couldn't name the company if I had to, and of course I would never buy something marketed that way... but I doubt that he cares. He's undoubtedly getting a few cents for every page "visit".

Sooo... we're being exploited, and someone who's paying for the web page "advertising" is being cheated as well, which is the real point of what he's done.

It's not possible to lock anyone out of the forums without somehow compromising their anonymity (else they just come back under another ID). That anonymity here is something I take advantage of and value, and hope that I have not abused in these several years... but if it is abused by others, then those managaging the forums will have no choice- I will lose it, and that means that "Presumed Lost" will be no more.

So, yeah, I probably have no choice but to shrug it off.. but I do really hate to see it here.

That is one of my favorite books too.
That Heinlein invented the water bed is rather well known.
The fact that he invented the 'concept' of the hydration system(camelback, etc...) is not well known at all.
I think that is because it was not implimented until MANY years after this book was published.

Yup... we discussed that some time ago, and I think of "Tunnel" (unfortunate acronym) every time I strap one on.

I'm a bit subversive in that way. I've been known to buy Heinlein "juvenile" paperbacks and drop them in the "books for kids" donation boxes. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> In these PC days, though, probably nothing less mainstream than Harry Potter ever makes it to the kids. Unfortuunately, the current edition of "Tunnel" has a stupid cover illustration that guarantees that it will end up in a dumpster the first time a "responsible adult" in this culture catches sight of it.

I had a High School teacher who pointedly sneered at Heinlein for his insistance on "competent" main characters. He seemed to think that striving for competence was somehow pathological, and that it was much more healthy to learn to adjust to, and live with, your incompetence instead. Explains a lot, doesn't it?

Come to think of it, maybe Baden-Powell's recently-reprinted orignal "Scouting for Boys" would be equally subversive in this culture, but harder to justify censoring. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

(kinda off topic)
to make the 'resealable' meat packets easier, use cling wrap. when you finally open the container, put a peice of cling-wrap over the opening and replace the stupid yellow lid. Gives you a little more to grab onto...

Rena

Hienlin is one of my faves, and not just becuase of the survival/competence aspects...
When I recieved my first knife at the age of 5, I took it to school for show and tell. My parents fought to get it back from the Principal for a month. I still have it!
I went on my first alone camping outing when I was 10. It was a great time - and I found out later that my parents were two camping sitea over... just in case.
The first time I was taken to a deer hunt as a participant, I didn't get to shoot at anything. But then again, no one did. That was a cold, yet not snowy 16th winter for me.
My beautiful Sleeper was a birthday present when I was 17. She is a bastaard sword hand made by a gentleman in Utah. She hangs on my wall and is in several photoshoot spreads I have done. And I only used her on the honeysuckle bushes once... I have a machete for that!
I had a SAK given to me when I moved out of the 'Stead. I was only 22, what did I know about living on my own? <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (I came running back after a year...)

It is a sorry day that more people do not know what it is like to have a blade as a tool. Anything can be used to kill someone, or maim them so badly that they want to be dead. It takes a good blade to cut a stick for roasting marshmallows. I wouldn't go anywhere without my SAK with the torx driver in it for feild repairs. Only a good machete will go through the underbrush that grows in the back yard at the 'Stead. And only idiots don't know what it is like to live without a blade available. Like in Disney!

Just a little rambling...

Rena

Hmm... does that gentleman in Utah have the initials LS? Might have dealt with him myself. I have about 5 years of fencing in my background.

Kinves and blades are a pretty constant theme in Heinlein. Oscar Gordon in Glory Road springs to mind, with the Lady Vivamus, but I remember, offhand, references in The Star Beast and a lot in... was it "Orphans of the Sky"? The multi-generational starship book, where they had lost the knowledge that they were on a ship...

Still, "Tunnel" remains my favorite for all the "knife talk" as well.
_____________

See here infant, on this tour you are the rabbit, trying to escape the fox. You aren't the fox. One time in a hundred a gun might save your life; the other 99 it will just tempt you into folly. No doubt Matson or I would, but we are salted; we know when not to use one. That test area is going to be crawling with trigger-happy young squirts. If one shoots you, it won't matter that you have a gun too, because you will be dead.

I know how good a gun feels. It makes you bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, three meters tall and covered with hair. You're ready for anything and kind of hoping you'll find it. Which is exactly what's dangerous about it-- because you aren't anything of the sort. You are a feeble, hairless embryo, remarkably easy to kill. You could have an assault gun with two thousand meters precision range and isotope charges that could blow up a hill but you still wouldn't have eyes in the back of your head like a Janus bird or be able to see in the dark like the Thetis pygmies. Death can cuddle up on you from behind while you are drawing a bead on something in front.

Buddy, sometimes I send a girl out on an infiltration patrol, object" information--go out, find out, come back alive. How do you suppose I equip her?

In the first place I don't pick an eager young recruit; I send some unkillable old-timer. she peels down to her underwear, darkens her skin if it is not dark, and goes out bare-handed and bare-footed, without so much as a fly swatter. I have yet to lose a scout. Helpless and unprotected you do grow eyes in the back of your head and your nerve ends reach out and feel everything around you."

I've tried to resist commenting on this post, in case you might think I'm poking fun at you, but - you do realize "Tunnel in the Sky" (I'm assuming that's the work you're referring to) is a work of fiction? And that it was written, moreover, by a writer who liked putting his female characters in situations where they had to go naked or semi-naked, probably because it helped sell his books?

I doubt there are many elite commando units in the world that send their scouts out half-naked and unarmed, and I'm inclined to doubt that Heinlein had any real combat experience. (He was a naval officer from 1929 to 1934, between the wars, and he worked as a scientific researcher for the Naval Experimental Air Station during the Second World War.)

He was a good writer but I wouldn't consider him an authoritative reference. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Aardwolfe:

Heinlein may not have been an authority or a tactician for todays world, but those passages quoted speak volumes of truth.

I"ve had guns and knives as a young man, and I have guns and knives today as a middle aged man (I am however, better looking today then when I was younger.). As a young man, we used to engage in open hand slap fights for practice in the event a fistfight would ever become necessary. We played "chicken" and "stretch" with knives, and we even fought each other with real knives for practice (The rules for practice were no stabbing, no cuts above the throat or below the belly button, light cutting only and the one to draw first blood won.) I learned a very important technique from a cousin for prolonged knife fights that cost me a more than usual amount of blood which I keep in the back of my head to this day and will not tell anyone else about. We used to dress all in black and play hide n seek at night within a designated area using neighborhood yards, garages, gardens, and whatever else would conceal us. Those boyhood experiences, although never lifethreatening have taught me that it is better to be passive and wait for the advantage than it is to be openly powerful and always worrying about your back.

I remember an old "Hawiai Five-0" episode where one of the villans said, "Remember that behind every smile there are teeth".

Given a choice, I would prefer weapons up the wazo at my current age and life's experiences, but if I could go back and talk to myself as a young man, I would tell him to play the weak fool and learn before trying to assert yourself.

Bountyhunter

>>I've tried to resist commenting on this post, in case you might think I'm poking fun at you, but - you do realize "Tunnel in the Sky" (I'm assuming that's the work you're referring to) is a work of fiction?<<

Hmm. Ok.. how, exactly, am I supposed to take that otherwise, again? I mean, poking fun at me is fine, but you seem to indicate that instead of taking it that way, I'm supposed to take your question seriously.

Ok.. well, lessee here... teleportation to distant planets, alien creatures, future society pretty different from our own. Yup, I'd hazard a guess that it's fiction, all right.

Is that better?

Now, I've met some folks who discount any ideas that come from fiction, and one or two that refused to read it at all. Their prerogative, of course, but personally, I think that it leads to a narrow viewpoint. Fiction, especially Science Fiction, is where society brainstorms new ideas, where it tries them out for size and sees which ones it might want to adopt. The novel "Kings of the High Frontier", about a private space effort, seemed like pretty wild speculation just a few years ago... and was ridiculed.

But, to each their own.

As for him being an "authoritative reference"- of course not, at least by background.. but perhaps you're familiar with the "ad hominum" fallacy? It's really not valid to attack a line of reasoning by attacking the person who puts it forth, at least where it may be judged independently. In an extreme example, it is not valid to state that a mathematical equation must be false because the person who came up with it lacks an advanced degree in a related field. The equation, like an author's ideas, can be judged on it's own merit, and should be. I doubt there's an interesting author in the history of literature who's background is immune to criticism. Mark Twain was apparently a deserter, Mary Shelly was hardly a qualified science writer, somehow or other they've both managed to have some influence anyway. More, I'd dare to guess, than "qualified" writers of their times.

Generations of readers have now found much of value in Heinlein's work as well... but you're free not to.

As for scantily-clad women, that was so much a feature of SF in the 40's and 50's as to be a common cliche. It was certainly an artifact of it's time. I don't find it an indictment of the genre, or a particular author's work per se, though it seems that you're trying to frame it that way... but if it offends your moral or religious principles, then, by all means- be offended, I don't mind a bit. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

No joke? Really...? Some of the most thought provoking volumes ever written are fiction. A point often missed about higher math classes is that half the reason of sitting through them isn't to learn the math, but to teach one to THINK!!!

Once again, very wise words...

Equation...lack of degree...E=mc2...hmmm

I'm 31 this year and I carried a pocket knife all through school and no one ever cared. When I was in the 6th grade one of the high school teachers took us down to the park and shot a few guns for us, he had an old muzzelloader and an M16. 7th grade I had to go to the central county school and in gym class they took us up on a hill and we shot 22's. The "guys" in the class laughed at me (I wasn't athletic at all) because I was looking at the gun like I hadn't seen one before, but it was just that I hadn't used a bolt action before because my 22 was a semi auto <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Now a days you can't even say the word knife in school without getting in trouble. I had fun the other day though, was able to get on as an employee to the company I was contracted to, so we were sitting in the security room waiting on the fingerprint nazi to print us and the HR lady was making fun of the fingerprint nazi lady who was barking orders at the people she was printing. We got to talking about security and I was telling about the prison I went into to fix a PC and I couldn't take my cell phone but could take a pocket knife. Was telling her about the security guard at the supreme court who wasn't going to let me take my leatherman until another guard said "thats a leatherman, its ok". So I pulled out my wave and flipped it into pliers and told about the lady who backed away when I pulled a knife blade out of it to open the box with her laser printer part "ohh, thats a knife" as she backed away, and I told her how I said "how else do you want me to open this box". So I was able to get the point across to one of the HR people that knives are not bad and she didn't determine my leatherman to be a "weapon" so that says to me I'm not breaking the "no weapons" policy.
In my grandfathers day if he didn't show up at school with his gun and knife he was sent back home to get them <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I still have his gun too, for some reason just before I moved away for college he gave it to me when I came down to visit, told me not to tell any of the other grandkids because he didn't have enough to go around (he had 7 kids himself and most of them had 2 or 3). I still have that old rifle rolled up in a blanket under our spare bed, he didn't have the hammer but did have the powder horn made from a real horn. If anyone knows some good gun restoration links or and people/places in central OH that could help me restore it, I'd like to shoot it a couple times then put it away for my grandkids.

Eugene:

Try Dixie gun works for restoration, and Numrich Arms Corp. for parts.

It is not that hard and you can do most of it yourself with a library book on gunsmithing and/or metalworking.

Bountyhunter

I'll second that, and muzzle loaders/flintlocks are even easier to work on than most newer lead-spitters, but with an old original, I'd find somebody whose done some tinkering already to give you a hand with it. It'd be a shame to ruin a piece of history.

Troy

Reading some posts about Heinlein books, made me want to re-read the ones I had : Podkaine, Friday, Have spacesuit, Space cadet ... most in french, from my youth, when I really liked to read SF books and watch SF movies

And I also decided I needed to read others you mentionned.
So, I ordered Tunnel in the sky, Farmer in the sky, the Rolling stones, Starman Jones, Double star, Red planet.
(and others are on my wish list for my next order, along with Coddy's book)

I received them yesterday. So I started Tunnel in the sky at about 20:00 and closed the book at 03:00, last night !
The fact I did the same stupid thing the previous night (reading something found on a web site up to 3:30AM ...) did not help. And today I was really walking right beside my shoes ..
And now I have opened Farmer in the sky .... and just hope I will be strong enough (or tired enough !!) to shut lights off before midnight. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

My favorite Heinlein books:

The Door Into Summer
Stranger in a Strange Land
I Will Fear No Evil

But Orson Scott Card is by far my favorite science fiction writer. If you haven't read "Ender's Game", you haven't read good science fiction.

Goatrider:

Funny, but when I read "Stranger in a strange land", I was turned off from future Heinlein books.

If I want to read erotica, I can find better books.

Heinlein took a different path with that book which spent way to much time on bisexuality, group sex, and swapping sex partners than I expected in a science fiction book.

Bountyhunter

Alain,

I am very glad that I was able to recommend something you enjoyed. Thanks for saying so.

I know the feeling you describe. When I first read William Gibson's "Neuromancer" (shortly after it was published), I started reading late at night, read until morning, and not having finished, called in "sick" to work that day.

PL

P.S. My two cats are brothers named Castor and Pollux. That may make more sense later.

I have read "Ender's Cycle" books last year. Not too bad .... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What I did like, many years ago, were authors like Asimov, Herbert or Simack (I liked City a lot !).

Jeez, can't a body say ANYTHING in these fora without offending someone?

For the record, I've got nothing against naked women - that's the Internet's whole raison d'etre, IMO. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I was just pointing out that there are very few elite commando units that send their scouts out in their undies to do a spot of recon.

I firmly believe that if fiction doesn't provoke you to think about something in a new way, then it isn't very good fiction. It's just that you seemed to be quoting from it like it was the US Army Field Manual, and it ain't.

I am familiar with the "ad hominem" fallacy, and if Heinlein had been presenting a reasoned argument with facts to back it up, yours would be a valid complaint. But he wasn't.

The fact is, even the most eager young recruit is going to think twice about opening fire on a numerically superior force when his job is to remain quiet and collect information. He/she wouldn't be sent out on such a patrol unless she/he had learned to obey orders. And if he/she was incapable of controlling her/his emotions to even that limited extent then I suspect her/his commander would be glad to get rid of him/her/it asap. So Heinlein's basic premise - if that's what it was - that a soldier with a gun is more likely to engage the enemy on a solo recce mission than an unarmed one seems to me to be flawed.

And yes, I was poking fun at you. Sorry, but I didn't know any way to respond to your post without doing so. But I certainly didn't mean to offend you.

Heinlein was a good writer, btw. Not my favourite, but a good, thought-provoking read (with lots of half-naked wimmen, to boot). <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I remember reading (I don't remember where) about Greek units in the early days of Viet Nam, that got buck naked for night ambushes/raids, the theory being that if they felt anything in clothes, they killed it (not to mention the psychological impact of having hairy, naked, Greeks invading). I don't know how true it was, but tactically, it makes sense, in an environment where touch takes over for sight (if your troops aren't hung up over the idea of fighting in the nude).

No clothes in the rain, at night, in an ambush where no movement is permited? Wouldn't the enemy notice them from a mile away by their clattering teeth?

OTOH it could be true...

Reinhardt

Stranger in a Stange Land is the One Heinlein book I absolutely hated - Most of his other stuff (particularly the "juveniles") I love

>>Jeez, can't a body say ANYTHING in these fora without offending someone?<<

Of course not. This is the first decade of the 21st Century, being offended is still a leading recreational activity.

Not offended, really. But, if you "poke fun" at me, you have to expect me to poke back a bit...

Wasn't sure from the broad nature of your first sally whether I was defending the idea expressed, Heinlein, science fiction, fiction in general, or naked women. I guess we've narrowed it down to the idea.

>>It's just that you seemed to be quoting from it like it was the US Army Field Manual, and it ain't.<<

Well, that wasn't the intent. I had mentioned the book many times, and I just thought that the quote might pique a few people's interest enough to actually look at it.

>>The fact is, even the most eager young recruit is going to think twice about opening fire on a numerically superior force when his job is to remain quiet and collect information. He/she wouldn't be sent out on such a patrol unless she/he had learned to obey orders. And if he/she was incapable of controlling her/his emotions to even that limited extent then I suspect her/his commander would be glad to get rid of him/her/it asap. So Heinlein's basic premise - if that's what it was - that a soldier with a gun is more likely to engage the enemy on a solo recce mission than an unarmed one seems to me to be flawed.<<

Here we might disagree. This seems a drastic enough misinterpretation of the actual quote that I have to suspect that you either didn't read it very carefully, or you've consciously misstated his position for the purposes of argument. I don't think that was Heinlein's premise at all.

The point he was making was not about "engaging the enemy", it was about staying alive in what is intrinsically a vulnerable position- in this case, keeping the enemy from engaging you. He wasn't saying that being armed was going to make them charge in like Rambo on crystal meth, he was just saying that you're a LOT more careful when you feel scared and vulnerable, that there are times when it's entirely appropriate and beneficial to feel scared and vulnerable... and you feel LESS scared and vulnerable when you're armed. Just human nature.

FWIW, I pretty much recognized what I think is probably the source of this a long time ago. I'm working entirely from memory here, but I seem to recall that Baden-Powell of Scouts fame related the story of some African tribe where the rite of passage for boys was to be indelibly painted white, with the entire tribe under obligation to try to kill him whenever he's spotted, until the white pigment wore off on it's own. Not only excellent stealth training, I would think, but it would also seem a pretty good way to take the arrogance of late adolescence down a notch or two.

But of course, anyone advocating any "rite of passage" at all in these PC times would be immediately condemned. Is it any wonder we have so many infantile adults?

>>Stranger in a Stange Land is the One Heinlein book I absolutely hated - Most of his other stuff (particularly the "juveniles") I love<<

I'm pretty much in that camp. Contrary to the impression I seem to have given, there's a lot of Heinlein novels I don't like at all- a fair amount of his later work just seems self-indulgent, to put it mildly. As I've mentioned before, there seem to have been unfortunate health reasons behind some of that. I don't much care for "Evil", "Job", "Beast", "Friday", "Cat", etc.

When "Stranger" came out it disappointed many Heinlein fans, who felt it was by far his most uncharacteristic. At the time I spent a great deal of effort trying to understand it, feeling I must be missing something... and, of course, it became a counterculture "cult" favorite. We didn't know at the time it was a precursor to later work. I've never developed any affection for it.

I think many, but not all, of the "juveniles" are just excellent. Other than "Tunnel", I still enjoy "Have Spacesuit Will Travel", "Red Planet", "Citizen of the Galaxy"...

There are also number of the "adult" novels I do like. "Orphans of the Sky", "Glory Road", "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" , "Farnham's Freehold"... none of them are "unflawed", but I've never read any fiction that was...

Being in a line marrage myself, I really relate to many of the Hienlin books. Yes, he was a dirty old man, even when he was younger. Doesn't make the idea wrong, just not acceptable socially GENRALLY.

I hope that this will actually start another thread...

But back to Knife possession...

"An armed Society is a polite Society, after the first five years."



Guess who penned that one?


Rena

Wildcard163:

Naked Greek men attacking other men at night?

Better watch out that some Greek man desn't take offense by thinking you may be inferring something other than combat. You should be safe as you did not say anything about the attacked wearing locking steel underwear. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Survivalgene:

I have always wondered who came up with that statement, but this is the first time I have heard the tag line, "after the first five years".

Bountyhunter

Bounty ?
or one of the Marx Brother ?
.....

<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Just like other qoutes, most people don't use the full quote. I know that I am 'fairly' polite.

Rena

Well, I wasn't intentionally misstating it. (Even I can occasionally win an argument with myself, especially if I cheat. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But what would be the point?) But I may have misinterpreted it.

>>he was just saying that you're a LOT more careful when
>>you feel scared and vulnerable, that there are times when
>>it's entirely appropriate and beneficial to feel scared and
>>vulnerable...

Maybe so. Otoh, the point of reconnaissance is not just to come back, it's to come back with information, so maybe making them TOO scared and vulnerable would be counter-productive.

It's an interesting concept, I can see that now. I never was in the infantry but I spent enough time playing "silly bugger" in the woods to remember that the rifle always seemed to be catching on branches and tree roots, or swinging around and pulling you off balance. Doubtless the groundpounders who live, breathe, eat and sleep with the damned things learn how to handle them in the pitch black night. Or maybe they really do just hide them under a layer of brush when they set out and pick them up on their return.

Now that you mention it, Carsten Stroud, in "The Blue Wall", interviewed a veteran city police detective who always locked his handgun in the trunk of the car at the start of his shift and left it there until the end. Figured it was more likely to get him into trouble than out of it. Maybe he was a Heinlein fan <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like Woodrow Wilson Smith, all right... google didn't find the tag line either, so it must not be from "Notebooks", so... "Beyond this Horizon"? Can't grab it at the moment...

I thought it was Jefferson that said it?

No difference!

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Survivalgene:

Do you know who came up with the qoute?

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Actually, it seems I did miss quote. From BrainyQuote.com:

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.

The memory is not as good as it used to be.

Did I mention that I think my memory is going?

Rena