What is "survival"?

Okay, I'll state up front this is a troll - maybe this forum needs a good troll now and again to shake it up <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It seems to me that a lot of the regular posters around here are more interested in the latest gadgets and trinkets than they are about "survival", at least as I understand it.

For example, it seems to me there are people on this forum who will happily spend $200 for a knife that they don't need, but will balk at spending half that sum on a First Aid course. (I don't think they're the majority, or even a sizable minority; but we continue to encounter posts from supposedly experienced outdoorsmen who talk blithely about using duct tape and super-glue to close a superficial wound, for example.)

What about accident prevention? Or, failing that, accident avoidance? (i.e. Making sure you're not around when the accident happens.) I've just finished reading "Deep Water", an account of the June 1978 canoeing tragedy on Lake Temiskaming, on the Quebec/Ontario border. One boy who was scheduled to go on the trip was pulled off it by his father, literally at the last minute. When the school headmaster protested the father's decision, threatening dire consequences for the son, his father poked him in the chest and said clearly, "Someone is going to die and it's not going to be my son." With that, he got in the car and drove off, his son in the back seat. Less than 24 hours later, 12 of the boy's classmates were dead, along with one adult leader.

The boy is not listed among the "survivors" because he never went on the trip; but is this not really the ultimate survival technique? Recognising a dangerous situation and bailing out before it's too late?

I posted on the other forum, asking for tips on how non-pilots might recognise a potentially dangerous situation and opt to take the bus instead of flying. Every year, incompetent pilots kill not only themselves, but trusting passengers who deserve better. So far, over 70 people have read this post, but not one has responded. Why? Is it because they don't perceive this as a "survival" topic? Has nobody here ever considered the principle of making a go/no-go decision in a situation where you lack the formal training necessary? Does nobody have anything useful to say about it?

I must confess, I'm more than a little disappointed. To me, "survival" is much more than debating the merits of this knife over that one, or how much stuff we can cram inside an Altoids tin. All the survival skills in the world won't save you if you're killed on impact.

There's an old saying among pilots that "A superior pilot uses his superior judgement to avoid getting into situations where he needs to employ his superior skills to save his superior ass." That, to me, is the ultimate survival mechanism - simply not being there when "it" happens.

Any comments? Questions? Curses or insults? Or should I just shut up and go away? <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

aardwolfe,
Though you haven't been the most frequent poster I would hardly consider you a newbie or troll. You have often posted interesting information and provoked good discussion. This may be another case (or not), in anycase, don't just shut-up and go away! That would be a loss to this forum.

I think that there are certainly an abundance of gear-heads here on this forum. (there are probably good statistically valid reasons why computer-using, internet frequenting, nerds are fascinated with gadgets) It is good to occasionally be reminded that survival is first a mind-set, secondly a skill set and lastly a set of gear.

OTOH, If you are in the Alaskan bush and a pond hopper plane comes to rescue you how are you going to be able to assess your go, no-go decision without the weather-band radio needed to get a forcast? <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

ramblings begin here
Doug is certainly one of the forum members here who may be capable of providing an answer to your question on the other forum. There may be other pilots on the forum also who can answer that question. Also, pilots aren't likely to take kindly to having untrained individuals question their judgement and may be reluctant to 1/2 educate a bunch of back-seat drivers.

Risk is a part of life and great risk is a part of an exciting life. To completely avoid being there when "it" happens you might stay home. I am sure that this isn't what you meant. I believe that any adult should be wise enough to take any level of considered risk that they wish. I think that reading this forum and other sources, getting some skills and gear, and keeping informed on the news are part of what allows me to consider the risks of my choices. I can't make anyone else any better at considering their risks (and many wouldn't if the could) That is sad. OTOH if someone else (like the pilot who came to rescue me from the alaskan bush) chooses a higher risk profile than I am comfortable I would like to be informed enough about the risks to make my own evaluation of the risks as part of deciding to accompany him. Trouble is, I can't become perfectly informed about everything so sometimes I will have to simply trust others evaluation of the risks and if they turn out to be less conservative than I. I will have to pray.

I guess I'd rather be the SAR individual than the consumer of SAR services. Which is why I volunteer on the EMS in my town and particpate in HAM Emergency communications. With sufficient time and cash I would probably join up with CAP and get certified for light plane rescue missions.

Hmmm, very interesting points.

Unfortunately, many of the forum members (myself included) delibirately go into situations where they expect to encounter accidents - that is the nature of many outdoor activities. I agree that accident prevention/avoidance is the best form of suvival, but when the very nature of your activities involves taking calculated risks that could result in survival situations, I for one would like to have the gadjets that could assist me in using my knowledge, skills and techiniques to get myself out of such a situation.


I don't think so. I just think that not many people actually know the answers. there was a post recently about PLB's (the latest in survival technology) that really didn't get many answers. Why? because people just don't really know the anwers.


Where does the pilot learn his superior skills to get him out of such situtions that he might just encounter?

I do agree with you that more emphasis should be placed on identifying, judging, and avoiding possible survival situations, but I also think that (most of) the threads in the forum remain very informative.

DEFINANTLY NOT! I need a thread like this to wake me up every now and then and make me aware of the drool on the keyboard after seeing pictures of a Spyderco Military in a "Mili vs Sebenza" post!

I'm not sure I really disagree with your points, but maybe I can supply a counterpoint.

We don't value being alive just for the act of breathing, there has to be more to it than that. As Shelby Browne said, "A ship is safe in the harbor, but that's not what ships are for". Getting anything out of life that makes it worthwhile and maybe worth preserving, is going to entail some risk in itself. The alternative is agoraphobia, which builds on itself until the victim is afraid to step out of his room. He may be very safe- but he's wasting his life anyway.

There are always going to be some aspects of the subject that are more interesting to people than they are really important, and some that are much more important than they are interesting to most people... but, if you don't let people indulge their interests, they'll just go do something else and forget about the whole thing. Surely that's worse than a less-than-survival-optimum balance of subjects?

I haven't replied because I too am waiting for Doug to answer this one. As forum administrator I don't want to respond Pavlovian like to every inquiry. I agree knowledge and training are desired over "stuff." My gear is a sickening mix of state of the art, used,homemade, surplus and traditional. Instructor Mors Kochanski says " It takes one personality to get into a situation, and paradoxically an entirelly different one to get out of it" I am paraphasing, but it applies to laymen in any activity. I once took a boating party onboard my ancient 36'MLB. One lady was very nervous leaving their state of the art ( but rapidly sinking) powerboat for my 'relic.' "Is this thing safe? Oh yes ma'm, this cutter was made by your generation in 1939 and it's still afloat. Oh, and have you been doing this long? yes ma'm, I qualified 3 days ago." <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I, too, have been waiting for someone to answer your post on flying tips for non-pilots because I think it raises an even bigger question; Is there a "checklist" of sorts that could keep a person out of all/most/some/any survival situation, or is it more of a gut feeling or sixth sense that helps the most?

If I was on an airplane and the pilot stumbled aboard reeking of burbon, I, as well as anyone else with even the slightest self-preservation instinct, would be inclined to get off. That's an obvious one. But what about the times when something "just doesn't feel right," even though nothing can be pinpointed as wrong or out of place? Should that be considered an indicator of something being wrong, should it simply be dismissed out of hand, or somewhere in the middle?

Back to the checklist, other than the obvious things (drunk pilots, hurricane conditions, duct tape holding wings on, etc) do you think a comprehensive list CAN be compiled such that following the list eliminates, or more realistically, severely reduces the likelyhood of bad things happening?

Chris.

P.S. Aardwolf, why did the father pull the boy of the trip in "Blue Water?"

<img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LOL I was just kidding, you can't get rid of me that easily.

Maybe I need to clarify some points. I wasn't suggesting that everyone stay home in a padded cell and have their food shipped in daily. Otoh, there's a difference between a "calculated risk" and foolhardiness, or outright negligence.

Flying through the mountains in a light plane is a calculated risk, as long as you actually do the calculations; but doing so with only one day of training, without (apparently) bothering to check the weather reports, and getting yourself sandwiched between two frontal systems, is arrant stupidity.

>>Also, pilots aren't likely to take kindly to having untrained individuals question their judgement and may be reluctant to 1/2 educate a bunch of back-seat drivers.

If a pilot got miffed because a non-pilot passenger questioned his judgement, then IMNSHO that in itself would be a red flag that this is not a pilot you would want to trust your life to.

I have two words for those pilots - JFK Jr. (Or is that 4 words?) <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm a private pilot, though I haven't flown for several years. I hope that, as a pilot, I would never put a passenger into the position of having to say "Sorry, but I have a bad feeling about this flight, so I'm going to stay on the ground." Many pilots might actually be relieved, because it enables them to cancel the flight without "losing face", as it were.

Anyway, I'm about falling asleep here so I'd better wrap this up before I start rambling inhecorently...

So what was the story of father's refusal to let his son go on the outing?

Also, what are the exact title of the book and the name of the author? It sounds like an interesting and potentially illustrative account.

Thanks,

John

Basically, that was pretty much it. The author had been trying to contact the survivors and the parents of the boys who went on the expedition; he finally got in touch with the boy who had dropped out at the last minute only a few weeks before the book went to press, called him, and interviewed him over the phone. So he didn't get the father's side of the story, only the son's; and of course the son was recalling something that had happened over a quarter of a century earlier, and his recollection may have been influenced by the events of the next day. What the son did say was that his father, for over a month prior to the expedition, had been having vivid nightmares about his son's death. I don't believe in psychic premonitions, so I personally would conclude that the father had noted, either consciously or not, several warning signs that made him uneasy about the upcoming expedition.

I looked on both amazon.com and Indigo.ca for the book but was unable to find a listing. However, it's a recent book - I don't have it with me but I'll post the author's name and ISBN # tonight when I'm home.

To summarize, the school in question (which closed for good about 10 years later) was a private school run by devout Anglicans, based on the British boarding school concept. They bragged about their safety record – they hadn’t had a fatality in 25 years of operation, but in hindsight they were fooling themselves. They routinely had canoes overturning on canoeing expeditions, and it wasn’t strictly true they’d never had a fatality – one student had died during a snowshoeing race about 10 years previously.

One rule of thumb I would glean from this book is that anyone who brags about “no fatalities” should immediately be questioned about whether there have been any “near misses”. It seems clear in hindsight that this particular school was running on borrowed time, and were long overdue for a serious mishap, in spite of their “perfect record”.
<img src="images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Title: Deep Waters - Is the Adventure Worth the Risk - The Lake Timiskaming Canoeing Tragedy
Author: James Raffan
ISBN: 0-00-638574-5
Harper Perennial Canada, http://www.harpercanada.com

aw,

It sounds like a good read, as well as a very informative one. Thanks for telling us about this book.

Incidentally, I would be inclined to think that most ordinary schools have operated for prolonged periods without fatalities. Thus any school that boasted that it had not yet killed any of its students (or at least suffered their deaths) was suspect. (Naturally I exclude military and high risk fields where their subject matters are inherently dangerous.) Anyway, I wouldn't readily send my children to such schools.

Thanks,

John

Hey Aardwolf,

I resemble and resent your post. I dont know whether to be amused or ashamed. I am admitted "gear queer" and I get quite a bit of razing at work about it. But, I am a US Marine and often times I carry my life on my back, or most often in the back of a Humvee, so space and weight are a premium for me. I need things that are small and light and serve dual purposes, and will stand up to the abuse of 6 weeks in the field.

I agree, this forum does become more about gear than anything else, but for me survival, both urban and rural, is a reality in almost everything I do. When I go to the field with my unit if I get sperated or hurt and I have to wait for them to find me, well I need to be able to live until they find me. If I get separated from my unit in the streets of some small town in a thrid world country, I need the items that will help me survive. Neither of these two events will happen hopefully.

The Marine Corps has taught me quite a bit about surviving in different situations, although I learned significantly more from the Boy Scouts.

I know how to take care of myself so anything (knife, tool, light, etc) that can help me out it much appreciated.

Sorry I didnt respond to your post, but I didnt feel I had much to add. And thank you for giving me a little eye opener as well. And by the way, you are no troll.

Garrett

I dunno... when you're on a site called "Equipped to Survive", I really don't think it's unreasonable that most of the conversation is about equipment. If the site were "Danger Avoidance", then it might be reasonable to expect otherwise. Some people think it should be about "militant" survivalism, some people think it should be about post-apocalyptic homesteading, and some think it should be about First Aid. Personally, even though this site doesn't cover a great many of my own interests and biases, I find it so valuable as it is, for what it is, that I'm reluctant to see people trying to change it.

As far as danger avoidance, I confess I'm personally less concerned with the perils are fairly obvious. When you step onto a boat, or helicopter, or a bush plane, or off the trailhead into the wilderness (such as remains), you know that there's a certain amount of chance involved. Not everyone gets to pick the chances they take.

If the last big survival lesson in the 20th Century was "don't drink the cool-aid", then maybe the first ones of the 21st Century are "ignore the voice on the PA system telling you to return to your desk".

Or, more broadly, "don't stick around to watch the tragedy unfold- concentrate on getting as far away from it as FAST as possible".

I know that my attitudes toward the unforseen dangers have changed this century. I'm more than willing to let co-worker ridicule me the next day, if we're all alive to do that- in the meantime, if I have ANY doubts about what's going down, I'm gone. Personally, I think that's a more important change than the fairly obvious precaution of making sure the organizers of a canoe trip are competent.

Thanks to all who have responded so far, and especially thanks for taking this post in the spirit it was intended.

I was unusually grumpy when I posted the above; I don't know, but maybe my friend's death (presumed at this point; the search was called off without finding anything) affected me more than I realised.

Over the next couple of weeks, I'll be putting together my own thoughts on "Accident Avoidance for Dummies" which I would like to incorporate into the cadet "Flight Safety" proficiency in the fall. I'll probably post them in the other thread when I do.

Sorry to hear about your friend. <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thanks.

>>Some people think it should be about "militant" survivalism, some people think it should be about post-apocalyptic homesteading, and some think it should be about First Aid.

I think it should be about survival, but that's just me <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

>>... When you step onto a boat, or helicopter, or a bush plane, ...you know that there's a certain amount of chance involved.

The way you put it, it sounds like you're saying the risk is the same, whether you get onto a plane that's fully IFR-equipped, flown by an ATP-rated pilot who's thoroughly checked the weather, or you get onto a plane flown by a low-time pilot who's unfamiliar with the area and is taking off for a flight through the mountains towards an area of known thunderstorm activity. I think the first of these is safe and reasonable; the second is tantamount to committing suicide. (I've probably misinterpreted you, though.)

>>Not everyone gets to pick the chances they take.

I'm not sure what this means, but I would say that the vast majority of us pick the chances we take, most of the time.

>>..."don't stick around to watch the tragedy unfold- concentrate on getting as far away from it as FAST as possible".

Unfortunately, by the time the tragedy starts unfolding, you may no longer be in a position to get away from it. IMNSHO, the ability to see the potential tragedy, long before it becomes obvious, is an important survival skill.

>>... the fairly obvious precaution of making sure the organizers of a canoe trip are competent.

It may be fairly obvious that you NEED to do that; it may not be obvious HOW you do it. And if you have any suggestions how to do that - what questions to ask, what danger signs to look for - I'd be interested in hearing them. Which is sort of the point I was trying to make, I guess. <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Well, the site and the forum is about; first) whatever Doug wants it to be about. second) whatever Chris allows to be posted without shutting down. So far it seems useful and educational - wouldn't change it for anything but I do participate in many others to fill in what I see as areas not adequately addressed here (though I have recently found I no-longer need to wander around the knife forums;))

Reasonable non-niave individuals all understand that there is risk in everything we do. A cautious individual will attempt to guage the amount of risk. An adventerous individual will accept a higher risk to reward ratio. A prepared individual will spend hours researching, learning, practicing, discussing with others in an attempt to be better at rating the risks that they are taking and preparing to mitigate the possible consequences should the risks be realized. To limit the discussion to gear is probably too narrow for me to feel adequately prepared. To limit the discussion to risk avoidance would result in a less adventurous life than would satisfy me.

Some risks are either extreme or light with little in-between. Light plane travel is one of these areas. Similar to skydiving. In skydiving, if something goes bad - buBye! There is no preparing or mitigating. Unless you pack your own you are really in someone elses hands. There may be some probing questions that I could learn to ask a small plane pilot when he / she offers me a ride but in the end I will either accept "I have looked into the situation and in my educated opinion, we will be fine taking this ride" or not. The result of my being wrong in accepting that statement is a state of un-earned trust. The result of that persons opinion being wrong is near certain fatality. This isn't just fancy liability lawyering. In the final analysis it comes down to how much I trust the individual flying the plane + how badly I need the ride + What alternatives do I have. In the event of a joy ride I may be much more selective and probing in the questions I ask about the safety of the ride since I can forego a lot of joy to reduce the chance of a fatal risk. OTOH, If I am hypothermic and starting into shock from loss of blood lying next to a dieing fire on the banks of a creek barely wide enough for the float plane to land in some remote part of the alaskan interior, I assure you I won't be asking any questions - I will only say thanks to the pilot and my God and add a little prayer for safe passage on the thanks to my God.

In the intermediate cases it is certainly a good idea to have a list of things you might want to know about your prospective flight before you buy the (potentially fatal) ticket. There are preflight checklists that are required of commercial pilots before they are cleared. That checklist itself might give us a good place to start. I am not a pilot and don't have access to these checklists or knowledge of what is on them. I presume that the checklist used by a commercial jet pilot might be a bit more restrictive than that applied to light planes flown privately. Yet a good pilot will do more than the minimum anyway.

things like
When did you get your lisence - how many hours / days / weeks / months / years have you been flying? flying this plane?

What ratings do you have and what do those ratings mean?

How often and when last did you fly this terrain? weather? plane?

What was your experience last time you flew this terrain? weather? plane?

What is the expected weather on the flight path? (if the pilot can't answer this one in great detail then you don't need to know much more)

When was your plane last inspected? overhauled? engine? aeordynamics? controls? instruments?

What types of instruments does your plane have? What does that little meter there tell you? And that one? What will happen if I grab this and twist? How about that?

What sort of survival kit / equipment is on-board? where is it? how does it deploy?

With a private pilot you should be able to ask these sorts of questions with some enthusiasm and curiosity and get them to expand on their ego at length. If they seem confused or hesitant in their answers then they may be poorly trained or unfamiliar with the controls of the specific plane. (that would be bad)

If you have the time over a pre-flight coffee to shoot the sh*t then you might ask them to tell flight stories - What was your worst flight? What did you do to get through safely? Ever had an off-airport landing? What was your first flight like? What was it like in flight school? What goes into a flight plan that will clear the control tower so you can take off? Do different airports have different requirements? Do you have to get certified in each state you fly over?

For me it is about getting to a point where I trust the pilot and his judgement more than it is about trying to second-guess him. I don't have the training or the time and money to get the training to be able to validly second-guess a trained pilot and what is safe for one may not be safe at all for another.

I am sure that there are situations where even the best pilot would be attempting the heroic to fly. Knowing how to spot those situations would make a difference - but only in the extreme cases where it is obvious. It seems likely to me that a larger number of accidents are caused by inexperience and incompetence rather than by extreme circumstances.

I see nothing wrong with examining the minutia of what makes the best gear. I read all of those posts, but I don't always coment because I'm mostly here to learn from those who have BTDT.

I strongly believe in following your gut instincts. Most of the time they are probably based on observation of the present situation plus a quick calculation based on your previous experiences. Sometimes they are just gut feelings. I trust my gut. I would also certainly consider cancelling my plans if I had a vivid dream about an upcoming disaster. Who says you have to do everything you plan according to a pre-determined schedule? My family has long believed in listening to the whispers of life, whether from God, or nature.

Survival requires good judgement, having suitable experience for the possible risks (less experience = low risk adventures), education, good gear, and physical competence. The JFK Jr. scenario lacked good judgement, had barely adequate education, not enough experience, great gear, and a physical impairment. That adds up to staying home until you can fly in clearer daylight skies.

Just my 2 cents. Glad to be back after my own personal survival times - no great adventure - just life throwing me some curveballs. Best regards, Keys <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />