Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS

Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/05/03 10:59 PM

Aron Ralston, who self-amputated his arm when he disregarded common sense safety precautions before heading off into the wilds, has threatened Equipped To Survive and Doug Ritter for use of his name on the ETS Web site. Get the details and read the absurd Cease and Desist Letter from his lawyer.

http://www.equipped.org/ralston_threatens_ets.htm

A reminder that this is a Family Friendly web site and that profanity and personal attacks on forum members are not acceptable. Let's keep the discussion of Aron Ralston on a civil level.
Posted by: Comanche7

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/05/03 11:52 PM

I'm amazed. In reading the forum thread and sundry commentary, I did not get the impression that you or ETS was selling PLB's, and I for one MOST CERTAINLY DID NOT GET THE IMPRESSION that you, ETS or the forum posters were trying to sell or gain from his self inflicted misfortune. My viewpoint is that it was simply a discussion about various news articles. If he did not want the publicity then he should not have put himself into the predicament in the first place.

If anything, the entire thread seemed to discuss the incident in much the same way as it would be spoken about after a coworker read the news article in the breakroom and commented on it while on break. I'll re-read the thread again to see if I missed some nuance, but IRRC there was not anyone of us standing to gain from his lack of preparedness.

Disclaimer> I am not a legal professional, nor do I want to be.<
My overall impression after reading the linked documents that you provided on this thread is that perhaps somebody is tired of chasing ambulances and decided to saber rattle.

Reading the threat letter makes one wonder what other exciting lawsuits this "lawyer" has threatened other folks / outfits with. Where there is smoke there is usually some fire.

If Aron really wanted to do something constructive with the experience, I would suggest writing a book about "the stupid thing that I did" in the hope of keeping others from doing the same.

I concur with the ETS stance on this saga and find it strange that someone with as much experience as he is ALLEGED to have would even speak with legal folks about starting such a frivolous suit.


Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 12:17 AM

Thanks for your support. There are lots of issues involved, especially when public forums are hosted, but I am confident that we have not overstepped any reasonable bounds, there's no libel and lord knows we have no commercial interests that amount to a hill of beans. The entire assets of the Foundation wouldn't cover an hour of this lawyer's time. One cannot let bullies get away with this sort of thing, it would be the end of our freedoms. All we can do right now is spread the word and hope they come to their senses. <shrug>
Posted by: frenchy

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 12:33 AM

Is this for real or is it some kind of a joke, about lawyers, that I don't understand ???!!!! <img src="images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 12:39 AM

Unfortunately, no joke. No legal system is perfect, and this is proof of that.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 01:06 AM

OK, you do something that grabs people's attention and they talk about it...

Am I missing something here?

BTW I just saw Elvis, but on second thought... I probably shouldn't say anything... just forget it... Mac
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 01:18 AM

A novel concept to be sure. <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Hutch66

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 02:27 AM

I, for one, would have loved to have seen the look on this hot shot lawyer's face when he read your response, nicely done <img src="images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I've met a lot of people who take themselves way too seriously, but this might take the cake.

And the countdown to me being sued for slander begins......NOW
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 02:30 AM

well, you'll be in good company, if I do say so myself <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 02:31 AM

And I thought "one-armed bandit" refered to Las Vegas-style slot machines.....
Posted by: Chris Kavanaugh

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 04:58 AM

The postings on the web at large following the story included queries about the retrieval of the mortified arm. One postulated the individual was wearing a Timex (or one was seeded later.) Remember the ad campaign " takes a licking and keeps on ticking? " Everytime something like this occures it becomes a race for book and movie rights before the 15 minutes of Andy Warhol fame fades. Lets take inventory; He lost an arm, has the spineless temerity to demand other's tongues and minds and doesn't have a leg to stand on. <img src="images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 05:12 AM

Quote:
Lets take inventory; He lost an arm, has the spineless temerity to demand other's tongues and minds and doesn't have a leg to stand on.

<img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Anonymous

Re:Do you have a solicitor? - 06/06/03 06:03 AM

Do you have a solicitor? You will need it! You know how hard people will fight for money! I think it is fair to say that you have the full forums support and i'm sure we will all help in any way we can!

Mark
Posted by: Stefan

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 08:49 AM

Sigh!
Once again trouble shows up at your door, Doug. I find it sad that people cant learn from bad examples like this "one armed bandit".
In my opinion you are doing a great job! Keep up the good work! <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
/Stefan, Sweden.
Posted by: Casual_Hero

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 12:56 PM

We have a growing concern in the UK about the growth in 'American Style' writs over the stupidest things. After reading this post I'm not surprised.
The only good news is that one of the UKs largest peddlars of this crap went bust last week - seems we Brits might be making a stand after all.
BTW I loved your email reply to the lawyers - I take it you've read "How to win friends and influence people".
Give 'em hell Doug...
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 01:17 PM

OK, so this is an urban emergency, let's see what is in our urban PSK to help - a quick dig and we might come up with a phone list - does it have our lawyers phone number? digging a bit further we find a phone card - is it charged with enought time to explain all of this to the lawyer an fax the relative documents and email the necessary emails off our laptop? Is there a PDA with a legal reference on-board or atleast in a compact flash card in the PDA case? Does our PDA have a few helpful "nicely worded" reply form emails and form letters that could be filled in with the appropriate names and addresses and sent off without us haveing to get our heart rate dangerously high while trying to respond? This is a true emergency! Less threatening things cause heart-attacks and death everyday! We must be equipped to survive! <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Seems from the letter that the issue here is the commercial use of Aron Ralstons highly valuable name and has nothing to do with whether we considered him intelligent, brave, intrepid or just plain stupid. I am wondering if this case will set a precedent that will forbid anyone from useing anyone elses name or "personality" in making a point - This might be good for political debate in this country. We might finally be seeing the end of name calling and get down to the actual governing principles again! But at the cost of ETS - very sad indeed! <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Also quite a blow to the basic freedoms we all enjoy

Freedom of speech,
Freedom of the press,
and the liberty to think and communicate with our fellows as we see fit!

These are strange times!
Posted by: Casual_Hero

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 01:18 PM

If you go over to http://www.boselaw.com you'll see that Mr Elberger was big in 'Civil Liberties Unions'. Enough said...

Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re:Do you have a solicitor? - 06/06/03 01:50 PM

Thanks to all for your expressions of support.

We do have a lawyer, who probably wishes I had passed the letter on to him first and is likley to chew me out sooner or later for being my usual smartass. <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Oh well.............................
Posted by: Biscuits

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 02:06 PM

I would have never said this before reading the Cease and Desist Letter from Mr. Elberger but, perhaps Mr. Ralston is defending his "Intellectual Property" because he has discovered how tiny his lot is.
Please keep us posted,
Biscuits
Posted by: Anonymous

Re:Do you have a solicitor? - 06/06/03 02:40 PM

At least yoiu got some personal staisfaction from it, i bet you felt so much better when you replied!

Mark
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 02:40 PM

And I thought it took b***s for him to cut his arm off. If this makes it to court it will redefine "frivolous lawsuit".

Ed <img src="images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 03:40 PM

So all I have to do to get rich is go out, get stuck, cut my arm off, and then threaten to sue ETS? *walks away scratching his head over that one*
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re:Do you have a solicitor? - 06/06/03 04:03 PM

<img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: mick

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 07:12 PM

don't know why he's so upset! He's name was all over tv any way. As for distasteful well lifes distastefull anyway.
Posted by: NeighborBill

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 10:58 PM

<img src="images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I want to buy one of Doug's PLBs that will keep me from cutting my arm off! Why can't I buy them here?! <img src="images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Sheesh. Now, if there had been a link to a paypal account directly following the comment about the PLB, the leach would have some kind of case...but...


Shakespeare was right. The ingredients for lawyer soup follow....
Posted by: cliff

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/06/03 11:37 PM

Doug:

So we give him his way. Never more will ETS hear "Aron Ralston" again. But nothing says we can't give him our own special ETS nom-de-filet, as it were. <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And with the spectre of of legal fees looming, make a contest out of it. 20 nominations, and you have to pony up a buck a vote for your favorite. (My nomination suggestion: "OHC" - One Hand Clapping.....)

And Doug, to see that lawyer's face when he read your response to his letter, I'd about give my right arm. No. Wait....... <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

.....CLIFF

Proudly exercising my 1st Amendment rights - one, two, feel the burn.....
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/07/03 12:31 AM

Billy,

Well, as much as I may rant at times against the bad lawyers myself, and there is no shortage of them, this being a good example, there are also some good guys out there. You will notice, for example, that the Board of Directors of the Equipped To Survive Foundation now has a lawyer on it, an intellectual property lawyer, AAMOF. <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/07/03 12:34 AM

Cliff,

I have no intention of giving him his way. We have done nothing wrong.
Quote:
My nomination suggestion: "OHC" - One Hand Clapping

<img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: aardwolfe

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/07/03 02:55 AM

Okay, at the risk of p1$$1ng everyone off <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here.

The statement Mr. Ralston was objecting to, from the "Cease and Desist" letter, was:

No Need To Amputate

Your survival should not require you to amputate your own
arm, as Aron Ralston was recently forced to do in order to
escape being trapped by an 800-pound boulder. Nor should
you have to make any other extraordinary sacrifice. While
too late for Aron, come July 1, 2003, you will be able to
purchase a pocket-sized emergency beacon that will alert
authorities that you need to be rescued and also give them
your location.

Now, I'm pretty sure even without looking that this was taken out of context. However, just reading that section, it sounds to me like some pitchman who's trying to capitalize on Mr. Ralston's misfortune. In my opinion, IF Doug had been using this incident to sell merchandise (which I'm certain he wasn't) or even to promote some particular brand and drum up business for one of his advertisers (which, again, I'm certain he wasn't), then I'd be pretty p-o'ed and ready to seek legal redress. Maybe somebody brought this to Ralston's attention and he didn't take the time to read the web site in a calm, clear-headed manner before he fired off a complaint to his lawyer. Pretty hot-headed behaviour, for sure, but I guess Doug could give him lessons <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I mean, how would you feel if you saw a company that sold burglar alarms and monitoring services using this to sell their product?

Elizabeth Smart Didn't Need to Suffer

Don't let your 14-year old be kidnapped and raped like
Elizabeth Smart; with our state-of-the-art alarm and
monitoring system, your children - unlike sweet little
Elizabeth - can sleep secure in their own beds.

I'd be pretty damn offended <img src="images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> if I read an advertisement like that - I can't imagine how the Smart family would feel. But - other than the fact that Doug isn't trying to sell PLBs - the tone is quite similar to the quoted text.

All you people immediately jumped on the bandwagon and attributed all sorts of base motives to Mr. Ralston, without any evidence to back them up. (EVIDENCE? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING EVIDENCE. HANG THE GUILTY BASTARD! <img src="images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />) Nowhere in any of the correspondence is there any indication that Mr. Ralston is hoping to make money from his ordeal; isn't it possible his concern is that people might THINK he's endorsing a commercial product when he isn't?

The tone of his lawyers' correspondence doesn't indicate someone who's out to make money. The first letter stated clearly that if Doug would remove Mr. Ralston's name from the website, they would consider the matter closed. The letter clearly states that Mr. Ralston "is not interested in allowing his name to be used to promote the PLB technology, your lectures, or any other products or services ...". Maybe he's not interested because Doug didn't offer him any money; or maybe he's just not interested period. But it doesn't sound like a man who's just out to make an easy buck.

I personally wish that Doug had taken a deep breath, counted to 100, and then politely replied that Mr. Ralston was simply mistaken - there was no intent to use his name for commercial gain or advertising purposes and that the post in question was of a purely educational nature, or words to that effect. Doug might even be willing to point out that one reason Mr. Ralston didn't have one of these devices is that the damn gummint has been dragging its heels for years on this issue, (so it wasn't like Mr. Ralston was simply too cheap to buy one).

At the risk of further alienating everyone, I'd also like to point out that what happened to Ralston was a fluke - far less foreseeable than what happened to our deeply revered Chris Kavanaugh on the California Channel Islands (http://www.equipped.org/0601rescue.htm). <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Even the best of us make mistakes. Cut the guy some slack, why don't ya?
Posted by: AyersTG

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/07/03 03:16 AM

Just another way to look at it:

Why not simply ask Doug to desist (for whatever reason)? Why go to all the trouble of a) hiring an attorney and b) one who practices in one of the few (3 was it?) states that has that specific law on the books?

I'm philosophicaly with Doug w.r.t. to his reaction to receiving a letter from an attorney rather than simply a note from Aron (or his Mom or g.f. or buddy or whatever...) Actually, since Indianapolis is only about a 5 hour drive from me... nah. But seriously - wouldn't better council have been "Well, have you asked Mr. Ritter to stop using your name...?" Eh?

As I said, another viewpoint.
Posted by: cliff

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/07/03 05:56 AM

Doug:

My earlier suggestion was said with tongue firmly planted in cheek. (I agree that ETS has done NOTHING, repeat NOTHING wrong!!) I thought that if he didn't want us using the name his parents gave him, he'd have to live with the one we give him........ <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

This fellow's demand seems to boil down to this:

<winyvoice>
"Knives and stones may break by bones, but names (personal, use of) will REALLY hurt me....."
</winyvoice>

.....CLIFF
Posted by: johnbaker

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/07/03 06:17 AM

Doug,

Consult your lawyer promptly about this (and follow his advice). I'm glad you have an IP attorney handy. I tried to PM you earlier with a few thoughts re this, but your PM was blocked. Glad I don't need to worry about it now.

Best wishes,

John
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/07/03 07:32 AM

Much like many other legal threats, this one will simply fade away. Aron is trying to not look completely stupid. In order to acomplish that, he needs to make everyone stop talking about it (not gonna happen).

Doug, you're in the right here. No doubt about that. If he had a shread of decency, he would tell his story in a forum like this one as opposed to selling the book rights. It was truely a freakish combination of events that caused his tragedy, but there are lessons to be learned here. Unfortunately, most people will have to pay $29.95 to learn it. This information should be free for all to learn from (IMHO). I really believe that he is trying to protect the dollar value of his story.....or...someone told him that he's supposed to get a lawyer to protect the dollar value of his story. In either case there's money involved. I bet that lawyer waived the retainer fee in lieu of a percentage of the book (or the made-for-TV movie) proceeds.

I'll admit, most people who see the story on TV would be too caught up in feeling bad for him to actually learn anything. They won't benefit fom it. Come to think of it, survival minded people won't benefit from it either. They already know what he did wrong. I guess the only people to benefit from this will be Aron and his lawyer. I wonder if Aron will add up all the numbers and tell us how much his arm was worth one day.



As a side note...I wonder if every reporter, newspaper, TV network, and magazine that his name appeared in got the same letter.

Just another $0.02
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/07/03 01:13 PM

Not too worry, it's hard to [censored] me off, unless you hire a lawyer to do your dirty work. <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

There are a lot of principles involved here, including freedom of the press. However Pollyannaish someone wants to look at this affair, as you have in playing DA, I am far too cynical and practical to ascribe any such motivations to this, there are still those issues involved. Reasonable people with the motivations you ascribe don't hire an attorney to write letters like that.

But, I needed a good laugh this morning and thank you for it. <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/07/03 01:15 PM

You're cracking me up! <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/07/03 01:31 PM

John,

I have PM blocked as it just complicates an already overstressed communications medium. Part of my role as a curmudgeon.

WRT legal issues that revolve around media and intellectual property, I have had a fairly complete education at the school of hard knocks, as do most experienced writers and editors, and received my practical JD degree many years ago. <img src="images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> While I may respond emotionally to something like this since that is my nature, and it is fun, the difference between what the Scott writes and what I write is a matter of degree, and tact, <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> the message is still the same. Had I even an ounce of concern or confusion over the legal issues involved, I can assure you I would have bit my tongue and talked to Scott first. I'm not nearly as dumb as I appear...well, at least that's the case most of the time. <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I've been down this road before and we're on the same page.

Again, your concern and suggestions, particularly given your experience and POV, are appreciated.
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Comments from Dean Russell, A Survivor Himself - 06/09/03 03:35 PM

Read comments from Dean Russell, a survivor himself, on Aron Ralston's threats against Doug Ritter and Equipped To Survive:

http://www.equipped.org/dean_ralston_email.htm
Posted by: johnbaker

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/10/03 12:56 AM

Doug,

In retrospect, your blocking your PM makes good sense.

I've never had any doubts about your media and IP legal savvy as well as your overall practicality and good sense. And as to the possibility that your temper and emotions might cloud your judgment and dominate, ...... Well, I've never had any doubts about your media and IP legal savvy anyway. <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

John
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/10/03 06:38 PM

What the heck would we find out in a book that we already don't know ???!!!!!!!

The guy got into trouble and had to take drastic measures to save himself.

The media has covered this thing pretty well.

Sounds like this kid is a dork anyways. HAdn't he had trouble in the woods before?
Posted by: aardwolfe

Re: Comments from Dean Russell, A Survivor Himself - 06/12/03 11:17 PM

>>I am in the unfortunate position to understand exactly what Mr. Ralston is feeling.

Unless you lost an arm, I doubt that very much.

>>Last summer I had an accident which totaled my helicopter at the 5,200 foot line on a local mountain.

Any chance you would share with us the reason for this? Was it something incredibly, mind-bogglingly stupid, or was it an unforeseeable fluke? Or somewhere in between? Ran out of gas? Continued VFR into IFR conditions? Scud-running through a mountain pass? Mechanical failure? Hit by a meteor from outer space?

>>The Search and Rescue technicians in the high cover aircraft saw fit to photograph the wreck and send it to the two local papers with circulations in excess of a half a million copies daily.

If true, I consider that a gross breach of professional ethics. If they were military, I hope they were court-martialled; if they were civilians, I hope they were fired.

>>While I sympathize with Mr. Ralston, a lot of the public's money was spent searching for him.

I thought that was why we pay taxes – to provide services to the public.

>>Mr. Elberger, your client and his law suit threat look ridiculous from the common person's point of view.

I guess that makes me an uncommon person. I saw nothing ridiculous – I saw a private citizen who objected to the way his name was being used. It was a private communication to Mr. Ritter; neither Mr. Ralston nor Mr. Elberger should be held responsible for the fact that Mr. Ritter decided to use his position to publicise it.

>>It has also occurred to me that his motives may be to control this whole issue and somehow profit by the sale of movie rights or some such thing.

“MAY BE” are the operative words in this statement. This is pure speculation on your part.

>>Mr. Ritter, I am solidly behind you. You have every right and possibly even a duty to advise people of this incident and how the consequences and costs could have been avoided.

Mr. Ritter could have done this equally well without portraying Mr. Ralston as a stupid, money-grubbing opportunist, which is grossly unfair, especially since Mr. Ralston’s motivation in sending the letter may have been his concern that people would incorrectly think he was making a commercial endorsement. (MAY HAVE BEEN being the operative words, I suppose, but I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt.)

>>Thousands of people view your web site and are better prepared because of it. My aircraft was carrying survival gear, food, water and a satellite phone, partly inspired by your site.

Mr. Ralston was carrying three days worth of water for a one-day hike. He obviously had adequate survival supplies and first aid training. What point are you trying to make here?

>>Perhaps if Mr. Ralston spent more time reading about survival

You may not have noticed this, Dean, but Mr. Ralston actually survived. Therefore, I’m not sure on what grounds you question his knowledge of survival.

>>and less time thinking of whom he can sue, or more money on gear and less on lawyers, he may have been better Equipped to Survive.

Oh, yeah. Whenever I go back-packing in the Rockies, I always carry a one-handed hydraulic jack, just in case an 800-pound rock lands on my arm. I can’t imagine what this dumbo was thinking, going out without his hydraulic jack. (That’s sarcasm, for those who failed to notice.)

Posted by: Greg_Sackett

Re: Comments from Dean Russell, A Survivor Himself - 06/13/03 06:31 PM

Aardwolf,

Is the weather bad up there in Canada or something? I don't think the sarcastic attacks are really necessary. Mr. Russell was simply trying to explain that if you end up in a situation like this you are going to have to expect people to talk about it. If Mr. Ralston is so concerned about the publicity I doubt he would be on television just about every day.

I think the concerns that Doug and others have expressed on this forum are that Mr. Ralston doesn't have the right to say that we can't talk about him in this forum, whether he did anything stupid or not, especially since this is a non-profit organization that isn't looking to make money off of his name. I don't believe that we are slandering his good name or causing him emotional pain or financial hardship. This is an educational site, and we are discussing the situation in order to learn from the events.

And personally, while I credit Mr. Ralston with his courage and determination to amputate his own arm and proceed to make his way out of the canyon, and his demonstrated thoughtfulness to bring ample water on his hike, it is a shame that he didn't simply let someone know where he was going. It very likely could have saved his arm (and yes that is pure speculation on my part). Hopefully others will learn from this lesson and be more attentive to this important survival tactic.

Greg
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Comments from Dean Russell, A Survivor Himself - 06/13/03 06:41 PM

Please note that the cease and desist letter doesn't raise the issue of slander or liabel only intellectual property. If Mr. Ralston were concerned about his reputation or good name he would be litigating over slander or liabel. The only value of securing his intellectual property is so that none other than himself will profit from this valueable property. I am certain that the lawyer is not writing these letters for free. He may be writing them on speculation that there will be enough value proceeding from the activity to pay his fees or he may have already been paid by Mr. Ralston who, likewise, must feel that there is enough value in his intelectual property that he can recoup the fees paid to the lawyer. It is not much of a reach to conclude that the intent here is to safeguard this valuable intellectual property in order to later capitalize upon it in the form of book, TV or film version of the story.

The weekness of prosecuting any web site based upon local laws is already been proven by large precedent. If Mr. Ralston were concerned about slander or liabel then he could be prosecuting on much broader laws.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/17/03 08:25 PM

The fact is that Aron's name and story were being used to pitch products. You read it and it came straight from the web site. Aron's name was being used to SELL survival equipment, that is where the problem lies. Not in telling a news story, but in the fact that his name is being used to sell products. THAT is just wrong. I hate to say it but I think Aron is a little too busy to worry about reading web pages, he has people looking out for him. There have been no complaints or lawsuits against the news media, or message boards BUT when you use his name to pitch your product that is where you cross the line. It's funny how you can ridicule him for making money off his ordeal and yet that is EXACTLY what you were doing by using his name to pitch your products. I read the page, I saw the ad and I am disgusting by it. I am even more disgusted that you are lying to these people by making it seem as though the letter was written because you were discussing his story instead of the truth which is you were USING his story to make money. What a hypocrite!
Posted by: Anonymous

What is the lawsuit really about - 06/17/03 08:50 PM

Come on now, let's tell it like it is!!! They were using Aron's name to SELL PRODUCTS. You can't do that. If someone used your name to sell a product I'm sure your family would be all over it too.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/17/03 08:59 PM

You're really Aron, aren't you?

I dont' believe Aron's name was being used to sell products. It was being used as an example of a case where a PLB would have come in "handy".

~W
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: What is the lawsuit really about - 06/17/03 09:05 PM

ETS doesn't sell products. ETS reviews products impartially and has a non-profit relationship with the product manufacturers. ETS doesn't recieve any compensation from manufacturers or retailers for these reviews. ETS doesn't stand to make a penny from the sale of any product reviewed nor to lose money if these products do not sell. If ETS chooses to use Mr. Ralstons story to exemplify the value or utility of a class of products then that is just what it is and nothing more. Please re-read the article yourself. Mr. Ralstons story was used to highlight the utility of a class of products without specifically mentioning a specific product brand or model because even the manufacturers of these products haven't put them on the market yet. This is equivalent to saying "you don't need to have your loved ones burn't to a crisp like Mr. Jones because as of december '04 someone else, whom I have no commercial relationship with, will be finally allowed by the government to sell fire extinguishers, which up till now they have not been able to sell.

If you cannot see the distinction... 8(
Posted by: aardwolfe

Re: What is the lawsuit really about - 06/18/03 12:03 AM

Well, here's a link to the article in question so everyone can judge for themselves:

http://www.equipped.org/plbpresentation.htm

I note the third paragraph:

"Doug Ritter is the nation's leading consumer expert on the subject of PLBs and is available to speak to your group about this extraordinary new lifesaving technology."

Sorry, but IMO this goes slightly beyond simply promoting a new life-saving technology; Doug is advertising his services as a guest speaker (which I doubt he is doing for free).

Whether this makes the web page in question a commercial use of Aron Ralston's name or not is not clear to me - probably even the lawyers are disagreeing on it. But I think it makes Doug's case weaker than he is making it out to be, and it strengthens Ralston's argument that he is not opposed to free speech in general (as you claim) but rather, to the unauthorised use of his name in what he perceives to be a commercial sales pitch.

In any event, the question will not be decided here.

Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/18/03 12:32 AM

I think you are rather confused. Please quote to us the exact text where either myself or Equipped To Survive are profiting by selling products using Aron Ralston's name as you allege. I'm guessing that will be pretty difficult for you to do. The only products currently being sold on Equipped To Survive are a cap and knife with the ETS logo. In neither case is Aron Ralston's name mentioned.

Ralston's name is used as an example of a person who might have benefited from some technology currently being introduced to this country that can save people in similar situations the unfortunate experience he went through.

Despite your, and their, accusations, the facts are very clear. We are not selling PLBs. We are not even selling seminars about PLBs. We are simply a non-profit entity trying to save lives. The laws are also very clear. Mr. Ralston cannot prevent the legitimate media, and we are part of the legitimate media, from using his name and experience as an example with which to illustrate any point we care to make. If you have not done so recently, you might want to reacquaint yourself with the Bill of Rights.
Posted by: Chris Kavanaugh

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/18/03 04:04 AM

Forgive my late reply. I didn't see all of your post earlier. There are no flukes in nature, excepting on cetaceans. What befell Mr Ralston and my party have utterly no difference. He failed to take certain pretrip precautions and had a boulder fall on his arm. My whoefully ill led party somehow circumvented, overlooked and ignored every rule and guidelines for the islands. Had I been pinned by a pygmy mammoth femur the result would have been the same. I would be remiss not to address Doug's "profit" motive in giving lectures. Doug is a recognised member of the safety/survival community. I can personally attest that his efforts return little enough for the investment in time and energy. Shall we dock the pay of Coast Guardsmen,Firemen and paramedics who make reference to incidents? But then some people begrudge songbirds their voice. In closing, individuals who register solely to post attacks in the safety of faceless anonymity also lack the collection of vertebrae one would attach to said structure. But then this incident seems to center on the progressive loss of body parts.
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: What is the lawsuit really about - 06/18/03 05:27 AM

Actually, you are wrong and I'd appreciate an apology for impugning my good name. Just to set the record straight, virtually all my talks are done for free with the organizations picking up only expenses, and not even that in some cases. Of the six talks I have given so far this year, only three even picked up expenses. I or the Foundation occasionally receive a modest honorarium, but that is not normally a condition for accepting a speaking engagement and has never covered the actual cost involved in developing these talks, even if figured at minimum wage. Let me make this very clear; this isn't a business, period. God knows my wife wishes it was.

So, even if the argument that we were using his name to promote a business held water from a legal perspective, which it does not because his name is technically not being used in that manner, it would fall apart because there is nothing being sold. Whether you want to believe it or not, that's the way it is, and I have the fiscal bruises to prove it. <img src="images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Casual_Hero

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/18/03 01:00 PM

Dear All,

This debate is going to run and run and run. You can all see from my earlier posts that I support Doug, but can we now ship this topic over to campfire (where it probably belongs) because its probably giving first-time visitors a very jaded view of the site. Anyone else agree?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/18/03 01:06 PM

What he said!
Posted by: Casual_Hero

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/18/03 01:10 PM

Sorry, I don't understand that reply.
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/18/03 01:37 PM

Scott,

Thanks for the suggestion;I agree with most of it. There are a number of issues involved, including ensuring that the discussion is readily available to those who are coming looking to participate as word spreads of this brouhaha. I have an idea, however...
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/18/03 01:55 PM

it was just a basic "Me Too" or "I second that thought" type of slang reply. Sorry for the confusion. (I think that there is probably a hollywood reference I could find to excuse it but why bother)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: What is the lawsuit really about - 06/18/03 06:34 PM

Did you see the actual page the cease & desist letter was referring to? It was pulled because it was an advertisement for particular items for sale and used his name. I saw the page myself. Even if ETS is not selling the item, they own this website and I'm sure that's who they needed to contact. Besides if you read the letter it says to stop using his name. This is being blown way out of proportion.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: What is the lawsuit really about - 06/18/03 07:21 PM

1) ETS does not produce or sell any products and therefore does not advertise products.

2) I don't believe that ETS has pulled the article. this article is still posted and can be found rather easily on this site. If you are referring to the presentation that was given by Mr. Ritter, I have never seen that posted to this site. I believe, from reading the letter from Mr. Ralstons attorney, that was an oral presentation so we only have accounts of what was contained therein. I would suspect that it held to the same tone and content as the article referenced above.

3) The use of Mr. Ralstons name was in relation to a technology not a product. This is identical to saying that Mr. Ralston will soon not have to walk to work because cars have been invented. We are not talking about Fords but cars. This doesn't give any manufacturer or retailer even any incidental advertising. When discussing new technologies it is useful to give examples of why such technologies will or could improve our lives.

To the side, please check your facts and stop this barrage of mis-information. If you can refute the above facts do so specifically else you don't have any more of a case the Mr. Ralston and his attorney.

Mr. Ritter, If I am in error and there is an article which contradicts my assertions then I will appologize for my adversarial tone.

In any case, further discussion on this without specific quotes and details will not come from me.
Posted by: Anonymous

Sorry just my opinion. - 06/18/03 08:42 PM

You're right. It won't be decided here and I'm wasting my time trying to make those who are in favor of the page see it the way I do. I think it is sad what happened to Aron and it just made me even sadder that his name was used in this fashion. I should have known better than to go up against a bunch of men in a survival forum. It's like going up against a starving lion. I do think it's silly to make PERSONAL comments about a man you know nothing about. I know it is freedom of speech but none the less it's just mean. When I did a search for Aron Ralston and found this page I guess I had no idea what I was up against. I was just trying to stick up for a man who quit his corporate job to live his life doing what I believe most people on this site like to do, climb. He dedicated a good portion of his life (and I'm sure he will continue to) to helping others survive and he just gets slammed because he made a mistake. I'm sure no one knows it more than he does. If he could take back that day, I'm sure he would. Fact is, he got pinned and he did what he had to do. I think his is the ultimate survivor story and it's a shame to see people judge him as being an idiot. Sorry just my opinion.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/19/03 12:30 AM

Doug,
I'm sorry that you have a problem with someone speaking out against you but look at your posts. You got a lot of attention as a result. That's why I am here. This site came up first in a search for "Aron Ralston". You made the comment right on your page "Aron Ralston Threatens Doug Ritter" What did he do? Pull out his pocket knife and point it at you? A more realistic title would have been Aron Ralston's Lawyer brings law suit against ETS. The one you have is a little dramatic don't you think? And then reply to the lawyer in such an incredibly ridiculous fashion "stick it where the sun don't shine" Come on Doug. Then you state
"A reminder that this is a Family Friendly web site and that profanity and personal attacks on forum members are not acceptable. Let's keep the discussion of Aron Ralston on a civil level." You're not setting a very good example. I won't be posting or bothering with this site any more. It's one thing to have a healthy discussion, even if it is a disagreement, it's another to act the way several of the people on this list are acting. I have enough children of my own I don't need to argue with more. This has been a waste of my time and obviously yours as well. You won't even have a civil conversation with me. I'm sorry and I won't bother you again.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/19/03 12:32 AM

This time I am REALLY sorry. I meant to send that to Doug not the list. I don't want to get anyone worked up. I have a feeling that with the exception of the Aron Ralston bashing this is a good site with great information. It's a shame this whole thing happened. Peace and good climbing.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aron Ralston Threatens Doug and ETS - 06/20/03 03:19 AM

Gee, I missed a good dirt pounding and leaf throwing match here. I know attorneys that write 10 C & D letters before breakfast. They're worth less than the paper those letters are printed on, and so are the letters. The nerve of accusing Doug of doing something illegal when he's not selling PLB's boggles the mind. It is also a stretch to call Mr. Ralston a personality or to believe that he has any substantial commercial value. It is tragic that Mr. Ralston has lost his arm, and I hope he makes enough money from his book or whatever to make him comfortable in some way, but to take offense at Doug Ritter and ETS is doing a disservice to humanity. I posted a while back that Mr. Ralston was not a good example of a proper survival mindset. He simply did what he had to do in a bad situation. That doesn't make him some kind of gritty John Wayne hero. Why do I feel like I'm reading a story about Tonya Harding when I read of his actions after the tragic event? Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Regards, Keys
Posted by: aardwolfe

flukes of nature, and faceless anonymity - 06/20/03 04:12 PM

>> There are no flukes in nature, excepting on cetaceans.

A fluke is a statistical anomaly – i.e. yes it could happen but the chance of it happening on any given occasion is very small. I’ve just started reading a book, “Against The Gods”, which is a study of the history of risk management. The author so far makes a compelling case that the unpredictability of nature is essential to human progress. Flukes of nature happen all the time – if they didn’t, we would still be living in caves.

I won’t bore you with any of the mathematics but, in short, it is impossible to eliminate all potential hazards (btw, did you know that “hazard” comes from the Arabic word for “dice”?) so in the end, it’s a personal decision to pick which risks we are willing to accept and which ones we are going to mitigate.

>>What befell Mr Ralston and my party have utterly no difference. He failed to take certain pretrip precautions and had a boulder fall on his arm. My woefully ill led party somehow circumvented, overlooked and ignored every rule and guidelines for the islands.

I have no problem with this answer, although I disagree with it slightly. What bothers me is the double standard I see on this forum – because you’re “one of us”, nobody would dare to call you an ignoramus. Yet Aron Ralston – whose mistakes were, IMO, far more subtle than yours were – is treated as though he went sky-diving and forgot his parachute.

Going to a desert island and forgetting your water bottle (as one member of your party did) is downright stupid. Going to that same desert island without ensuring that your supplies would arrive at the same time as you is careless. Going hiking without a partner, because your whole reason for going is to be by yourself, is a calculated risk.

>>I would be remiss not to address Doug's "profit" motive in giving lectures. Doug is a recognised member of the safety/survival community. I can personally attest that his efforts return little enough for the investment in time and energy.

That was not my point, Chris. My point was that, for those who haven’t taken the trouble to read the page in question, it is clearly not just a public service announcement. It is a sales pitch for Doug’s services as a guest speaker. I don’t know, and neither does Aron Ralston, how much Doug charges as a guest speaker, or what he uses the money for. I don’t begrudge his making a living – we all gotta eat, and Doug gotta pay someone to host this web site and connect it to the Internet. But from my point of view, and probably from Aron Ralston’s as well, this is not just a public service announcement, and I think Ralston is well within his rights to ask that he not be associated with it. Which is all he did, after all.

>> In closing, individuals who register solely to post attacks in the safety of faceless anonymity also lack the collection of vertebrae one would attach to said structure. But then this incident seems to center on the progressive loss of body parts.

I’m not sure if this refers to me or not. If it doesn’t, fine. If it does, then I have this to say:

1. Disagreeing with someone is not an “attack”.
2. I’m no more “faceless” or anonymous than anyone else on this forum. In fact, as a computer security expert, I would strongly recommend against anyone publishing their real name, or any other personal information, in a forum as public as this.

Native North American tribes often had taboos against giving their names to strangers. They didn’t consider this cowardly or faceless; it was, to them, a sensible precaution, to prevent evil shamans from being able to work magic against them. In these days of identity theft and on-line stalkers, when people’s lives have been ruined, and innocent people have been murdered simply because some wacko they never met took a dislike to them, it seems to me an equally sensible precaution. My name and e-dress are things that I share with people I trust; I’m not posting them on the Internet for millions of anonymous lurkers to read. If you have a problem with that, then I’m sorry, but it’s your problem, not mine.
Posted by: Chris Kavanaugh

Re: flukes of nature, and faceless anonymity - 06/21/03 02:14 AM

My comments were NOT pointed at you <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />, but the individual who registered solely to post on this affair. I hope, no I expect and would demand that my comments,activities and personal failings are subject to critique no less than everyone else. Alpha males have a nasty habit of getting removed from the gene pool <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />