NYC Knife Law Question

Note: let's not discuss our opinions or feelings regarding these laws, I just want to know what the law actually is.

I'm heading back to NYC soon, for a brief visit. As far as the law is concerned, am I better off carrying a folding knife, a fixed blade, or a multitool with an OHO blade? Is there a length limit I should obey?

While I don't know myself, I believe that if you download the Knife Rights $1.99 Knife Rights LegalBlade™ App (for iPhone or Android), it will tell you what you need to know.

First off, thanks for noting the LegalBlade App availability. In asnwer to the OP's questions:

Note that New York City administrative code has an under-4-inch length limit and requires knives be carried concealed. Knife Rights recommends that you never carry your knife clipped to your pocket in New York City. Even when covered by a jacket, simply moving the jacket aside to get to a wallet has been enough to get folks arrested. Always ensure your knife is completely concealed at all times, including not "printing" on the outside of your clothing. In addition, be extremely circumspect about using a knife for any purpose in a public setting.

Note also that NYC has interpreted the state law against gravity knives such that if an officer can "wrist flick" the knife blade open and the knife blade locks open, that knife is an illegal gravity knife. NYC takes this position even if it requires multiple tries and use of exaggerated arm thrust or motion. Using this interpretation, most any lockblade knife might be deemed an illegal gravity knife.

A Swiss Army Knife, traditional slipjoint folder (Case, etc.) or something like a Spyderco Slipit if you want one-hand opening, all without a locking blade, cannot be considered an illegal gravity knife. And, of course, need to be carried completely concealed. If there's a pocket clip, take it off lest you by habit use it.

And, just to be clear, just because you cannot "wrist flick" open a lockblade folding knife does not mean a cop cannot. Trust me, they can and will. Since this is an arrest and go to jail offense, don't be stupid.

Added. BTW, just to make the point, I opened a Leatherman OHO blade in federal court: http://www.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=373&Itemid=1

the current safe harbor is a non-locking non OHO blade. Like a typical SAK.

Thanks to all for the responses. I've put LegalBlade on my iPad and reviewed NY/NYC.

It seems like even an LM Wave is illegal even if fully concealed.

If it locks, it's best to avoid carrying it. I wouldn't count on some of the more esoteric locks (Opinal, Svord), or rescue hook blades to protect you against an unfavorable interpretation.

Also, considering what seems to be an increase in security theater, a padded and prepaid SASE would be a good thing to carry. I can't speak for the NYPD, but security guards are a capricious bunch.

P.S. Happy National Knife Day!

Can someone tell me what's the deal with locking blades? I know they don't like those in the UK either. I consider a lock a safety feature so you don't close the knife on your fingers. What is the "bad" interpretation of a lock that would lead people to want to ban them?

Lock + openable by inertia, centrifugal force, or gravity = gravity knife. A gravity knife is illegal.

The exact criteria for what constitutes opening inertia or centrifugal force is vague. It has been interpreted by the courts to include such techniques as as wild flailing of the arms, holding the knife by the blade (Spydie drop), and depressing the lock while swinging it. Under these criteria, a Buck 110 or a Spyderco Dragonfly is considered a gravity knife.

The only defense is to have a knife which does not lock open. E.G. Swiss army knives, traditional folders, etc. that have slip joints.

Just to make a few things clear. First off, this is essentially a New York City issue only, lest someone misunderstand.

Second, NY state's gravity knife statute does not include "inertia." It does include "lock," so a folder without a lock cannot be a gravity knife, hence the suggestion to avoid knives with locking blades.

Third, I am not aware of any NY court sanctioning "holding the knife by the blade (Spydie drop), and depressing the lock while swinging it" although we are aware of claims that arrests have been made by use of such techniques, they have not made it to court. The only technique that I am aware of that has gone to trial used a conventional arm and wrist motion to open the blade. Most of these arrests do not get to trial, although the cost to not get there can be considerable.

And, just to be clear, none of those extraordinary techniques are really necessary to open a Dragonfly, or even a Lady Bug, nor to open a Buck 110, both of the latter were demonstrated by us in Federal Court using conventional wrist and arm action only. It is a skill, however. One many cops in NYC have perfected.

Doug, can you explain what you mean by "common folding knives with a bias toward closure"? I've never heard that terminology before.

Hi,
Do you know/have used a lock back knife, like a buck folding knife?

When you open the knife a little, say 10-20 degrees, its snaps back shut.
It wants to stay closed.
It has bias toward closure.
If you shake the knife a little the blade doesn't open.

See 26339.attach

My plan is to carry an LM Rebar, concealed in a pocket. I don't like doing without an OHO blade but I also don't want to have any run-ins with NYPD. Fortunately it will be a brief visit.

I hear that some policemen may grab a folder, while it is closed, BY THE EXPOSED BLADE ONLY, then vigorously whip it. If the blade opens (or in this case if the handle "opens"), then they regard it a gravity knife. So be careful.

I wonder whether the best solution is to carry a fixed kitchen knife and carry it around wrapped in frilly tissue paper in a William & Sonoma bag.

Also, you cannot bring pepper spray into New York State. If you want something like that, you need to purchase locally. The merchant will have to record your name for the authorities. Only designated stores sell pepper spray.

Fortunately many parts of NYC are quite safe. But never lose your situation awareness no matter where you go.

Enjoy your trip!

That's because nobody is around to cause any trouble. They're all in prison for having pocket knifes, pepper spray, 16oz sodas, or whatever.

EMPnotImplyNuclear got it right. Virtually all folding knives except automatic (switchblade) knives have some mechanical means of keeping the blade closed while in your pocket, using a detent, spring, friction, etc., to prevent injuries. They are "biased" to stay closed and are designed to be opened only by moving the blade to overcome that tendency to stay closed. Because bias towards closure varies widely by design, manufacturing tolerances, wear, etc., some open more easily than others.

True Gravity knives have no bias towards closure or opening. They have a lock to keep them closed, but once the lock is released nothing happens unless you point them towards the ground or apply centrifugal force. Because there is no bias they open readily the same way for every person every time.

Automatic (switchblade) knives are biased to open, the blade wants to open and only stays closed because of a latch. Press the button or otherwise release that latch and the blade springs open.

Thanks for the explanation. I presume the design is for safety for the user. As try as I might I cannot swing any of my knives open, NYC cops must be talented indeed.

However, I am still mystified - my folders are mostly one handed operation. I really don't get the distinction between a knife that have can be opened with a violent swing or wrist action and a knife that can open simply by using the thumb on a hole or stud. The knife is open in less than a second in either case and ready for a use whether that use is to open a cardboard box or stab someone. To me it is a distinction without a practical difference. Even a push button operated switch blade or balisong knife doesn't open that much faster - or does it.

I guess authorities have to draw a line somewhere but that kind of distinction is lost on me. I can understand laws with a blade length (3" or less) or style (double edged Tanto vs a blunt tip) which can make a knife "less lethal".

Siggghhh, I would welcome back those simpler days of my childhood 48 yrs ago when my Dad gave me my first knife. He treated it as simple tool for the pocket and it never occurred to me that it was a weapon. He was a farmer and carpenter and used his 2 bladed pocketknife all the time. I just followed in his footsteps.

In those areas that feel a need to "draw a line somewhere", I'd like to see a more objective standard than the strength and skill of an officer of the law, and his ability to flick open a knife. Blade length and design of a knife could be objective standards. A knife the design of which allows it to lock open would be an objective standard. The flicking open of a knife is not inherent in the knife so much as the wielder of the knife. Rather than rewrite the law to make a valid objective standard, it seems they are using subjective standards to make just about any knife fall under the purview of a knife law that is already on the books.

I never visit and have no intention of ever visiting NYC; laws like this tell me that I am not welcome there. The people of NYC have the government and laws that they deserve.

I wonder, are fixed blade knives a problem in NY too? They're kind of the culmination of "fast opening and locking". They're always open and locked.

I'm not a lawyer, this is what I looked up. Apparently carrying a "dirk, dagger or stiletto" carries with it the rebuttable presumption that one intended to use it unlawfully against a person. I haven't found definitions of "dirk, dagger or stiletto" that are sufficiently clear to me to indicate that any fixed knife I own isn't one of those under NYC law. I suspect that I could win in court if I were ticketed or arrested for carrying a small fixie, but I sure as heck don't want to find out.

Under 4 inches and carried fully concealed is legal

Unfortunately, the Rebar blades do lock. I would either take the precaution of popping off the locking bars, or going with something that doesn't lock.




dirk, dagger or stiletto has commonly been accepted to mean fixed blade knives. IIRC, modified to cut or stab, i.e. sharpened screwdriver, also falls under this definition.

It has to be both OHO and locking to be in violation of their (incorrect, IMO) interpretation of the gravity knife law.

While they lock, I believe they also open to the inside (you have to unfold the handles before you can deploy the blade). This is in contrast to tools like the Wave, where the blades open to the outside.

Correct. Unlikely a Rebar would create any issues, BUT, do NOT carry in a pouch as that is technically not concealed!

I hadn't thought of that. A mechanical end-run around a legal end-run. I suppose the same logic of additional steps could also apply to Gerber MP and SOG PowerPlier series of multitools.

How about the classic, original Leatherman PST - inside opening and non-locking. Mine served capably for years...

I guess you really need to know the laws. I shudder to think that the stuff I carry every day here in Colorado would land me in prison for a decade or more in some other jurisdiction. New York, Chicago, Washington D.C., New Jersey, California. It's a bit sad that we've ended up like this. It definitely DOES affect where I am willing to travel to. And I always re-familiarize myself with the laws before traveling anywhere, even to places I've known to be OK in the past. Some places I just won't travel too, period. Not for business, not for pleasure. It's just not worth the potential trouble.

I mean, what do you do if you're flying with a legally declared handgun in a legal lockbox in your checked luggage, from friendly place A to friendly place B. But due to weather or mechanical issues, you plane is diverted and forced to land in New Jersey, where you have to deplane, collect your checked luggage, and spend the night. You are so screwed. Might as well just head on over to the prison and check yourself in. It looks like knife laws will get you into similar trouble as well.

According to a class taught by an attorney on such matters, refuse to accept the firearm. Tell the airline it's their responsibility. I am guessing there is a good chance you may not get your handgun back, but that's better than prison. I am not a lawyer, so take my advice at your own risk.

How do you do that? There's no special handling of firearms after you declare and check them. There are no markings on the outside of your luggage telling what they contain. It's totally stealth after your initial declare, special screening and hand-over. After that part, your bags are re-mixed in with everybody elses luggage. Your bags fulls of guns just roll out on the baggage delivery carousels like every other piece of luggage. That's why you move from your plane to baggage pick-up ASAP, so you can be there right when yours comes out so nobody else can grab it first. There's nobody to refuse to.

You'd think an attorney teaching a class on such matters would at least know how the process works. But apparently not.

I can't imagine this is so hard to figure out. Just walk away. The point is to avoid prison. You don't need to find someone to refuse the firearm to in order to avoid prison.

In the past when my flight got diverted, there were occasions when an airline employee handed me my bags personally.

There have been cases similar to this that ended badly, or at least with a great deal of expense. My advice is to not fly with checked firearms if it's possible for your flight to be diverted to LGA, JFK or EWR. I'm not aware of other airports in the USA that I would apply this advice to.

I suspect most problems with checked firearms in cases where a plane is diverted occurs when the person attempts to recheck the baggage.

And you think abandoning a firearm, unattended, in New Jersey, is going to keep you out of prison??? I dare say the luggage will be traced right back to you. Remember, you declared the firearm and filled out paperwork when you checked it, and there is a sticker placed on the lockbox (inside the luggage, but not visible from outside) that has your name and info on it.

I don't think "just walk away" is such a good plan, even if you were willing to give up your expensive firearms and take the financial hit.

I am back from NYC. I ended up buying a Spyderco Grasshopper from their "Slipit" line. It's a very small non-locking knife. While it has the Spydie Hole it cannot be opened one handed no matter how hard one tries; even if I turned out to be wrong about that it's still NYC legal when kept in a pocket.

The one interaction with NYPD was brief and professional. They came swiftly when I called 911 to report an emotionally disturbed person harassing and scaring people in my mother's neighborhood; after asking me what the EDP had done I was on my way. They were, a family member who has reason to know explained, waiting for a Sergeant with a Taser (in case gentler methods failed) before trying to get him some help.

The knife came with a wicked edge from the factory and was used almost constantly during the brief trip. For small cutting jobs it works admirably. I'm glad I bought it.

Responding to haertig, I think you should consult an attorney in NJ. For us non-attorneys, we can have a bit of fun, and none of it should count as legal advice. Let me ask you: is there a law that will put you in jail in that situation? You never took possession of the firearm. Since you've declared your firearm, the airline knowingly brought a firearm to New Jersey -- against your will, even! (I seem to recall this would be sort of a gray area.)

What I remember from the course agrees with another poster who says the problem occurs when you try to recheck the bag. That's when they get you for illegally possessing and carrying in the State of New Jersey. That's the law that people violate in this situation.

Also, how does the airline handle unclaimed bags on a diverted flight? Perhaps they will just ship them to the destination. Some years ago I did just that. My flight was diverted because of bad weather. I failed to pick up my bag (no guns or anything funny) because I either missed an announcement or the announcement was never made. By the time I figured it out and went to claim the bag, they said they locked the unclaimed ones away. Anyway, I wasn't the only passenger who didn't get his/her bag -- there was a poor woman screaming that she was on a job interview trip, and she needed this or that from her bag. I flew to my original destination the next day, and my bag was waiting for me there.

I'm not say that's what will happen to you in the hypothetical New Jersey situation. But it's just another thing to keep in mind.

Again, I am not an attorney. I just post online for entertainment purposes only. You're better off with a psychic for legal advice.

I was speaking more-or-less theoretically. I wouldn't fly to NJ with a firearm (wouldn't go there, period). And by association, any state remotely close to it (you might get diverted to NJ!) I have flown with firearms to Texas, which is totally a safe zone. And into Nashville, which should be safe ... unlikely that you'd be diverted to an unsafe zone as far away from Nashville as Chicago or Washington, D.C.

For the most part, if you steer well clear of NJ (the entire state), NY City, CA (the entire state), Chicago and Washington, D.C. you should be fine even if reasonably diverted. I think Hawaii might be in there also, which is a terrible shame. Better to just avoid a multi-state zone around these places than to take chances accidentally ending up in one and risking prison for normal everyday activities done elsewhere. It's a shame that these places have effectively black-listed entire zones of the US for travel, but they have. They're all pretty much collapsing in on themselves (except Hawaii), so maybe, someday, I'll be able to travel to the black-listed zones after they finish collapsing.

I've found that for urban use, a small, razor sharp blade is an excellent match. There's a reason yesteryear's pen knives all had ~2" blades.

I'm aware of prosecutions at NYC-area airports (JFK, LGA and EWR) of travelers with checked firearms whose flights were diverted. I'm not aware of anything like that in the other locations you mention.

That's why you need to check the laws before going near a place. Just because we haven't seen a newspaper article about someone getting in trouble doesn't mean it's safe.

Here are a few examples:

Washington, D.C.: "A valid registration certificate is required for possession or transfer of any firearm." "Illegal to possess or acquire magazines of more than 10 round capacity." Thus, an airport in D.C. is one of the last places I'd want to be diverted to while legally transporting a firearm from safe place A to safe place B.

U.S. Virgin Islands: "A permit is required to possess, transport, or carry a firearm". There aren't too many safe destinations that you could be headed to where you might get diverted to the Virgin Islands though.

Illinois: "State-issued FOID required to possess any firearm."

Hawaii: "All firearms must be registered with local law enforcement within five days of purchase or 72 hours of import into the state, whether or not they are serviceable or not." So I was wrong about Hawaii, it's OK to be diverted there as long as your diversion is shorter than 72 hours. Hawaii is not a place you'd likely be diverted to anyway, it's kind of all by itself out there.

New York, New Jersey: You said you were already familiar with their prosecutions, so I won't quote any laws for them. But they're very bad.

Basically, any place that requires a license to own firearms, registration of firearms, or an FOID ("Firearms Owner Identification Card") is a potential Hell Hole you wouldn't want to accidentally end up in.

References:

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-sho...state-breakdown

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/gov_gun_law_per-government-gun-laws-permits

The Washington, DC law doesn't apply to people passing through:
The exception here may be a bit squishy-sounding but if you're diverted to a DC airport you're either in Virginia (DCA and IAD) or Maryland (BWI), so the DC law wouldn't apply to you anyway.

The FOID law in Illinois has a big exception that applies to air travelers:
Another Google search reveals that flying into and out of Chicago airports with declared firearms in checked baggage is a non-issue.

I was imprecise earlier in that I didn't exclude international destinations; I meant only US airports.

Still, you have to wonder if that's really true when you read stories like this:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/warnin...article/2535216

I continue to believe that going anywhere near a firearm-hating state (district) with a firearm in your possession is just asking for trouble. That includes accidentally getting diverted there when you actually had zero intention of setting foot in the place.

What is that cop saying I've heard, "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride". Something like that. Alluding to the situation where you may ultimately escape legal penalty, but only after enduring much inconvenience, wasted time, confiscated possessions, lost job, jail time, lost money for legal representation, etc.

This thread has diverged from the initial question regarding knives to firearms. But I think the discussion is still very relevant. Often times, once a place goes after guns hog wild, and finds that in the end that doesn't really help anything, then they go after knives. A fantastic example of this is Great Britain, with their current "knife crime" hand wringing. They pretty much totally outlawed guns. And then didn't they move on to knives? They were trying to outlaw pointy knives. I don't know if that effort succeeded. I think they have outlawed locking knives, haven't they? So it's not a good idea to overlook what a place does against firearms owners thinking "they'll never do that to my knives". I think someone thinking like that would be in for a rude surprise. I also have a hunch that someone who looks at a knife foremost as a tool, but something that someone of evil intent can use as a weapon, probably looks at firearms the same way. Similarly, someone who has an irrational fear of guns probably has an irrational fear of knives too. And the irrational folks are the ones pushing these crazy restrictive laws. So firearms and knives are closely related when it comes to "rights".

There hasn't been any recent change in knife laws here. Pen-knifes are presumed tools, and other knifes are presumed weapons, but both presumptions are rebutable. So it's not so much that they are outlawed, as that carrying a knife that isn't a pen-knife needs a specific justification. A vague, "I might need to cut something" isn't specific enough. The hand-wringing is mostly directed at gangs, mostly teenagers, who use knives as weapons to cause lasting bodily harm. Knife-crime is a real issue here.

I actually think our statute law is reasonable, as it does acknowledge that pen-knives are tools that need no further justification to carry. The problem is that the statute did not consider locking blades at all, and some case law has established precedent that locking blades are classed with fixed blades. The way those cases arose meant that the argument that a lock is a safety feature never really got made. So the case law is bad, but unlikely now to get over-turned.

Let's please stay away from commentary about whether the law is effective or appropriate, and limit comment to what the law actually is.



Thanks,

chaosmagnet