Found an interesting new thing to learn...

Posted by: haertig

Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 04/29/16 07:51 PM

... Celestial Navigation

I'm studying it, online course materials, with the help of a friend who is experienced with it.

Probably not too much practical use for me, since I've never done an ocean voyage of any kind, much less tried to navigate one (they probably all use GPS now anyways, with Cel Nav only as a backup).

Still, it's fun to learn! Exercise the brain learning new stuff.

Now, I just need to find myself a Sextant Shop. Those seem pretty rare here in Colorado...
Posted by: Russ

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 04/29/16 08:22 PM

For your purpose, the Davis Mark 3 Marine Sextant is a good option. I've got one and it works well, good for training.

Since you're in CO, you can make an artificial horizon with a dish of water. Works really well for backyard practice.
Posted by: M_a_x

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 04/30/16 07:08 AM

I did the same a few years ago (also with no real use for it). This is what I used:
http://www.amazon.com/Sextants-Cardboard...xtant+cardboard

There is also an artificial horizon kit for it. That is basically a spirit level and a mirror.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 04/30/16 12:49 PM

Cardboard sextants are a neat idea for an educational purpose, but you could never use one for real, I seriously doubt it can get wet and continue working.

I bought the Davis Mark 3 after seeing it mentioned as part of the navigation package on a sloop preparing for the San Francisco to Hawaii Trans-Pac race. It is accurate to about 2 minutes of arc and is built for actual use. The sun shades are remarkably good, turning the sun into a little orange ball you can sight. Davis Mark 3 users manual

Another place to shop for Marine Navigation supplies is Landfall Navigation. Sextants there run from the Cardboard Sextant Kit to the Cassens & Plath Horizon Ultra Marine Sextant ("accuracy guaranteed to 9 seconds of arc") for only $1795.00 ... Lots of other good stuff too.
Posted by: M_a_x

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 04/30/16 02:44 PM

You are right. The cardboard sextant cannot get wet. Assembling it might provide some additional learning experience.
For the original poster it might be an option.
Posted by: haertig

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 04/30/16 09:51 PM

My friend that is helping me has a sextant. I'm not sure the brand/model, but it is a decent quality metal one, it cost about $650-ish I think he said (or was it $850-ish?). More expensive than I'm willing to pay for just learning this for fun. I doubt I will ever truly "navigate" with a sextant, books and charts, I'll just learn the skills required and practice for fun. Even though he said he'll help me using his sextant, I may buy a less expensive plastic one for my own practice when he's not around. Who knows though, I may end up buying a nice metal one. I like owning and admiring high quality well made precision things, whatever they may be!
Posted by: Russ

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/01/16 12:18 AM

I thought about getting one of the high end metal sextants, but the "Davis Mark 15 and Mark 25 sextants have three scales that give readings to 2 / 10 of a minute" of arc -- an order of magnitude better than the Mark 3's 2 minutes of arc and IMO plenty accurate for most marine navigation.
Posted by: haertig

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/01/16 03:27 AM

A sextant would obviously have to be accurate, but I don't know what level of precision is needed for ocean navigation, or how precise sextants can actually get. But I imagine there's a point of diminishing return spending more money to get more precision. For example, I have a watch (analog now, with my aging eyes!) that has a second hand. That's all the precision I need. And I don't even look at the second hand during daily chores! A watch with a 1/10 second hand would be 10x as precise, but probably no more accurate, and certainly no more useful than my cheaper watch.

For my uses, which are to simply learn the concepts and techniques of Cel Nav but not actually use it for real navigation, I'm sure I could get by with an inexpensive sextant. A very inexpensive one. But I'm also looking forward to using my friends, under his guiding hand, so I can learn the finer points of sextant use like the drum and vernier scale that will give you higher precision.

Time will tell if I can get my fill of the finer points with my friends sextant and then opt for something like the Mark 3. Or if I'll want to step up (relatively speaking) and get a Mark 15. Or if I get enthralled by the fine mechanics and end up buying a metal one, which would mostly be for display and admiring in my home.

But I'm just at the very beginning of all this. I've read the theory parts of Blewitt's book "Celestial Navigation For Yachtsmen" and I've gotten a few chapters into Burch's book "Celestial Navigation".
Posted by: Bingley

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/01/16 04:01 AM

From what Russ is saying, it seems the cardboard sextant would be quite sufficient for your course in the great maritime hub of Colorado. Save the money for something else, like a GPS.

On the other hand, if you want to have something to show off to friends -- and I suspect this may be the case, because even I want such a thing -- then perhaps Russ (or another seasoned seadog) can recommend something with that in mind. It's gotta be decent enough for learning, and it should look good next to a musket and a triangle hat. smile Come on, just admit it!
Posted by: haertig

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/01/16 05:00 AM

From what I understand thus far (or what I think I understand!), the lions share of the work in celestial navigation is not in taking the sights, it's everything else before and after that. Working with the sight data, times, tables, charts, a little basic math, etc. So yes, I'm sure I could get by with even a cardboard sextant. But admit it, putting that up for display on the living room shelf is going to be a tad on the cheesy side. I guess you could put it up next to the telescope you made from a wrapping paper tube.
Posted by: AKSAR

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/01/16 05:31 AM

Originally Posted By: haertig
.......and I've gotten a few chapters into Burch's book "Celestial Navigation".

I haven't gotten into celestial navigation, but I've used David Burch's "Fundamentals of Kayak Navigation", and it is a superb book!
Posted by: M_a_x

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/01/16 06:59 AM

Originally Posted By: haertig
A sextant would obviously have to be accurate, but I don't know what level of precision is needed for ocean navigation, or how precise sextants can actually get. But I imagine there's a point of diminishing return spending more money to get more precision.


Bobby Schenk - a person who did a lot of blue water sailing and navigation - stated in one of his books that the accuracy of a shot with a sextant would be around 5 minutes of angle. Being able to read it with more precision may be nice but does not really improve the accuracy of your fix.
Cassens & Plath is one of the leading manufacturers of nautical instruments for both recreational and professional navigation. Their most precise sextants are state of the art equipment which also serve to show how good Cassens & Plath is.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/01/16 12:53 PM

I have two sextants, both plastic and I consider the least precise model -- the Davis Mark 3 -- to be good enough and it weighs a whole lot less than a precision instrument in brass. Something to keep in mind is that on a small boat at sea you are not standing still; the boat is rolling and pitching always, it's what they do so the line you choose as your horizon is moving as they waves move you in the vertical plane.

Time is also a factor, you need precision in the time aspect of your shot because the look-up table expects you to know when the sighting occurred and it's better to take the shot at the time in the table rather than between times forcing you to interpolate. Really important when you shoot local apparent noon.

They sell cheap brass knock-offs online, but I wouldn't use one for actual navigation without extensive testing to see what it can do. The Davis Mark 25 is for if I ever buy that boat. Meantime, I can take sightings on sun, moon, stars and the occasional planet (Mars & Venus when visible) using the Mark 3 and really, the Mark 3 works.

Does the cardboard sextant come with sun filters?
Posted by: gonewiththewind

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/01/16 03:07 PM

You can do basic celestial navigation without the need for the sextant or charts and books. It will not give you a precise latitude or longitude, but if you are not completely unfamiliar with the area you are in, it can keep you oriented and going in the right direction. There are many books and videos on the subject:

Finding Your Way Without Map and Compass

Natural Navigator

These books include many other techniques than just celestial navigation as well.

Ron Hood (RIP) has some useful techniques on video:

Primitive Navigation

The sextant and charts method is interesting, and not a bad thing to know, just difficult, resource intensive, and dependent on on a clear sky.
Posted by: M_a_x

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/01/16 04:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Russ
They sell cheap brass knock-offs online, but I wouldn't use one for actual navigation without extensive testing to see what it can do.

I handled a few. They are Ok for ornamental use. I wouldn´t use any of the ones I handled for actual navigation. All had alignment errors that could not be adjusted.

Originally Posted By: Russ

Does the cardboard sextant come with sun filters?

Yes, the cardboard one comes with a sun filter.
Posted by: haertig

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/01/16 04:41 PM

This seems pretty cheap for the Davis Mark 3/15/25 plastic sextants: $37, $149, $183

http://www.sailsmarine.com/ItemDetail.aspx?c=223186&t=011_Davis_Mark_3_Marine_Sextant

http://www.sailsmarine.com/ItemDetail.aspx?c=225863&l=g

http://www.sailsmarine.com/ItemDetail.aspx?c=85974&t=025_Davis_Deluxe_Mark_25_Master_Sextant
Posted by: Russ

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/02/16 01:26 PM

If the shipping charges are reasonable, those are very good prices.
Posted by: bws48

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/02/16 03:27 PM

Originally Posted By: M_a_x
Being able to read it with more precision may be nice but does not really improve the accuracy of your fix.


The distinction between accuracy and precision is one the crops up in many places, is often not understood, but remains key.

In my experience, accuracy is usually more important than precision.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/02/16 05:55 PM

Both precision and accuracy are needed. "Without accuracy, what's the point." The operators manuals for the Davis sextants have instructions for adjusting the mirrors and essentially reducing alignment errors to near zero. With errors removed (implying it is accurate), precision is the question and limitations of the sextant design will determine that attribute. The Davis Mark 3 can be read to 2 minutes of arc which is a built-in precision limit; the Mark 25 can be read to 2/10's (0.2) of a minute of arc (12 seconds of arc if my math is right). I'm aware of one high end sextant that is guaranteed to 9 seconds of arc. If they are adjusted properly to remove alignment errors, they should be accurate too. A lot more money buys you a tad bit more precision.

But what is the requirement for a highly precise sextant when due to motion of the boat (combined with the steadiness and eye of the navigator) the best you can expect is +/- 5 minutes of arc? You can read minutes worth of accuracy to a precision of 12 (or 9) seconds -- so what.

That may be one reason the Davis Mark 3 is actually a pretty good choice. Its price, simplicity and ease of adjustment make it a pretty good fit for a sailboat which is low to the water and constantly moving. OTOH, if you are on a largish vessel where the height of the seas is not as significant, and where pitch and roll are much more reduced, a higher end sextant may be worthwhile. In that case you are probably a salaried navigator who has been working at sea for years and your sextant is one tool in your toolbox.


FWIW, my opinion...
Posted by: AKSAR

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/02/16 08:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Russ
But what is the requirement for a highly precise sextant when due to motion of the boat (combined with the steadiness and eye of the navigator) the best you can expect is +/- 5 minutes of arc? You can read minutes worth of accuracy to a precision of 12 (or 9) seconds -- so what.

I haven't personally tried working with a sextant, but I've long been interested in various aspects of navigation. Note that 1 minute of Latitude translates to 1 nautical mile of position, so +/- 5 minutes means you are at best within 5 nautical miles north or south of your true position. This agrees with what I've been told by experienced navigators. What they've said is that on a large ship (relatively stable), a good hand with a sextant might get within 1 nautical mile of their true position. On a small boat (a much more "lively" platform), you will do considerably worse.

I think one of the most amazing feats of small boat navigation ever done was by Frank Worsley on Shackelton's 1914 expedition. He successfully navigated the James M. Caird, a 22 foot lifeboat, 800 miles across Drake Passage and the South Atlantic to South Georgia Island.
Quote:
Worsley was faced with the task of navigating the Southern Ocean to South Georgia. There was no margin for error as the James Caird would sail into the South Atlantic if he missed the island; this would mean almost certain death for those in the lifeboat but also those remaining on Elephant Island. Fortuitously, the weather was fine on the day of departure from the island and this allowed Worsley to obtain a sun sighting to ensure that his chronometer was rated.
----------------snip-----------
For most of the voyage, the weather proved to be stormy and so overcast Worsley was unable to take more than a few sightings with his sextant. He described one sighting as "...cuddling the mast with one arm and swinging fore and aft round the mast, sextant and all..." and he would "...catch the sun when the boat leaped her highest on the crest of a sea...". At times the sea conditions were so rough he was braced by the other crew members when taking his sightings. On occasion, the temperature was bitter and each man would spend one minute shifts chipping away ice that coated the top surfaces of the James Caird, affecting its buoyancy. The heavy seas meant there was considerable risk that a man could go overboard.

After two weeks, Worsley began to worry about the lack of sightings and advised Shackleton he could not calculate their position to less than 10 miles (16 km) accuracy. As a result, Shackleton opted to aim for the western side of South Georgia which meant, given the prevailing winds, that if they missed their target they would be carried onto the east coast of the island. The following day, they began to observe drifting seaweed and seabirds circulating overhead, indicating the presence of land ahead. On 8 May, through mists and squalls, the crew sighted South Georgia's Cape Demidov, precisely in line with the course calculated by Worsley. He saw a "...towering black crag, with a lacework of snow around its flanks. One glimpse, and it was hidden again. We looked at each other with cheerful, foolish grins."
For a fascinating biography of Worsley, which explains how he became the amazing seaman he was, see: Thomson, John (2000). Shackleton's Captain: A Biography of Frank Worsley. Christchurch, New Zealand: Hazard Press Publishers. ISBN 1-877161-40-3.
Posted by: wildman800

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/02/16 09:31 PM

I agree with your estimate. The man who navigated an open lifeboat the farthest distance is Capt William Bligh, RN and former Commanding Officer of the HMS BOUNTY. The BOUNTY was the third ship under his command to have mutinied against him. The BOUNTY was also the last ship he was ever allowed to command.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/03/16 12:31 AM

Navigators in those days had to know their stuff and I imagine the navigator on Shackleton's expedition would have been a cut above excellent, his bio (see the wiki link in AKSAR's post) seems to confirm. I wonder how precise his sextant was capable of measuring... Point being that he used celestial to navigate close enough to get a visual on South Georgia. It doesn't really matter if they were to the left, right or on centerline; they were close enough to get a visual "through mists and squalls" -- close enough. Helluva feat.
Posted by: Mark_R

Re: Found an interesting new thing to learn... - 05/03/16 08:42 PM

On an anecdotal track, Robert Grant, in "Bush Flying: The Romance of the North" relates a story about celestial navigation saving his hide. He was getting some inflight celestial navigation practice, and his reading contradicted some piece of cockpit nav gear (IIRC, it was an ADF that the pilot was relying on). As it turned out, the ADF was malfunctioning and the aircraft was very off course, and headed out over the ocean.

IMO, Celestial Navigation is like reading Morse code or Semaphores. You may not ever have to use it, but when you need it, you really need it. It is also a relatively fail proof answer to the universal "Where the **** am I!?!" question that seems to indicate needing a rescue.