Altoids Tin

I agree with the "protective coloration" idea - if security people are willing to consider a nail file as a viable weapon, imagine what they'ed make of something that looked purpose-built. I can see it now ... "OK, buddy, up against the wall and spread 'em. We've got you pegged as a terrorist because that little item that YOU called a survival kit has all these deadly weapons it it - fish hooks to put someone's eye out; a razor blade; fishing line you could strangle someone with; matches for bomb making; Portable Aqua, God knows what evil thing you were going to do with that ..."

Fish hooks and fishing line? That's nothing - what about the 86-year old retired WWII pilot who was delayed 45 minutes while the security guards tried to decide whether his Congressional Medal of Honor was a prohibited weapon? (It *does* look kind of like a Japanese throwing star, I suppose. But so what?) <img src="images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Oy veh!... Don't get me started!

Personally, I think if the guy has earned a CMoH, he's earned the right to carry any dang thing he wants on a plane or anywhere else.

He's certainly earned the right NOT to be searched/interrogated by airport rent-a-cops (even now that they're federal employees) infatuated with taking knitting needles from grandmothers and toy guns from childen.

That's an outrage!

Maybe later, when I've got more time, I'll tell you how I really feel about it.

Haha Benman here we go again LMAO.

Tell us what those so called rent a cops should check for and confiscate?

Is not so much what they are confiscating but the fact they are very strict now vs then.

I have no problem with grandma's needles being taken if it means they will catch a similarly shaped ice pick. An xacto knife blade from an altoids tin SK can be duct taped to a spoon handle and you now have a deadly weapon; its not hard to do this stuff.

Not only that the aiports provide a parcel courier service right at security so you can ship your knitting needles home to yourself if you would like. Like everything else the media takes it all out of proportion. You never hear from the media about the 1000's of real weapons found and taken every day at security STILL.

Remeber they killed thousands on 911 with $2 box cutters.

Granny will have to deal.

Mike

Oh man,

He we go again is right. I don't think we really want to get into this conversation... at least not in this forum.

The way I see it, there's two extremes... we can all get on the plane naked (that is after the full body cavity search, of course) OR we can all bring our own guns so that we can take action against anybody who tries to hijack the plane.

Guess which extreme I lean towards. (Hint: I'm pretty ugly and I don't figure anyone wants to see me naked!) <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

HAHA,

Full cavity search LMAO.

Of course there is limits. Actually there is new x-ray's close to production that goes through your clothes and into the muscle layer of your body scanning for stuff. No strip needed.

I hardly think you can equate taking knitting needles to a body cavity search. BTW customs do strip searches and cavity searches all the time.

I agree tho there should be limits too.

Mike

Actually I wasn't trying to equate the two... I was simply kidding about what happens if you take this security thing to its logical conclusion. I've often found that you can assess the merit of one idea vs. the other by looking at the extreme cases of each and asking which you're more comfortable with. I was just trying to keep it light and fun.

BTW, in my mind, the x-ray thing is still just a high tech way of looking at me naked and probing me. So the question becomes how much of your personal privacy are you willing to give up in the name of "security"?

I certainly hope that we can agree that taking a 2" toy rifle from a kids G.I. Joe doll because it "resembles" a firearm in nothing less than ludicrous. It's the total loss of common sense in this country that disturbs me more than anything.

And it is costing us our freedoms, just to tie in the survival angle here, how many times has it been discussed what part of our survival kits, FAK's, leatherman tools, card tools, etc. have to be left behind just because we're getting on a plane? This is stuff that people on this board choose to carry every day to feel a little safer, and we're being told by our government that we're not allowed to do it under certain conditions.

It IS a problem, and its going to be a bigger problem before people start using a little common sense.

Dang it! I said I wasn't gonna let you get me on my soap box and now I've started spewing again... why do you keep doing this to me, Mike? <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You crack me up Ben. <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yes the GI joe thng is a little much.

The thought of you getting probed is a little much too LMAO.

I would draw the line at anything knife like sharp that could be used as a weapon. As far as x-ray under my clothes, I couldn't give a rats ass to be honest. If it gets me to Vegas quicker on vacation I'm all for it. Trust me, whats under my clothes is truely forgetable anyway haha.

I like you on your soapbox, you look all regal and such haha.

Mike

Boys, boys!

Certainly the airport security process catches and removes many true weapons daily and it always has. It may be catching more now because it is stricter - That much may be a good thing. There are other items that are not safe on an airplane simply due to the airpressure changes that occur. Cans of aresol can break and make a pretty mess of your luggage etc.

Certainly with any security process you will have specified, standards and guidelines combined with the personal judgement of the individual on the spot. Officers occasionally shoot the wrong persons, such as a kid pointing at them with a water pistol at the wrong time and place. Airport security "rent-a-cops" become overzealous occasionally and the current guidelines may be too strict. Flying remains the safest way to get from point A to point B even with terrorism (which isn't new BTW).

If someone gets in my car for a ride accross town I won't put it in gear without everyone putting on their seatbelt. My choice, My vehicle - You can put on the seatbelt or walk. The airliners don't want armed individuals on their planes and never have. Leave your weapons or walk your choice. The government doesn't want airliners turned into WMD either so they will help the airlines disarm their passengers.

Many things are good in small doses that are not good in the extreme. Policy and medicine share this. It is good to have armed officers with the authorization to shoot bad-guys. It is good to be able to change the definition of who the bad-guys are as society changes. It is not right to take that to the extreme of having the Jack-Booted SS arrive at your door at 5:00 am and drag you off because someone declared you to be a bad-guy without informing you.

RANT ON<img src="images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Just as we expect the security beauracracy to be capable of being flexible enough to work with citizens in changing the definition of bad-guys we must be flexible enough to work with their attempts to support the mandate given them by the people that they represent (which in the US is the citizenry - after all you voted didn't you? Well, so did your neighbors and if you disagree with the majority of your neighbors, take it up with them, change their minds, inform them of the consequences of their choices, print a newspaper, run a public access TV show, run for office, print pamphlets, run a website or simpley get out a real soap-box and stand in town center but don't blame the officers that are enforcing the orders given them by the people who were voted in to represent the majority of the voting citizens.) RANT OFF

Sadly, General Joe Foss died in January, 2003. At one time he was America's leading air Ace in the pacific : 26 confirmed kills and in a F4F Wildcat that was hopelessly inferior to the Zero. He also served as Governor of one of the western states. Perhaps his membership on the board of governors of the NRA recognized him as a terrorist threat, particularly as he was carrying that "throwing star", er Congressional Medal of Honor.

Oh, boy, I'm sorry - I should have known better. I didn't mean to start a war. <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

But let's look at your statements - why on earth shouldn't the rent-a-cops let card-carrying Al Qaeda members board the plane carrying an ice-pick? Seriously? What's he gonna do with it?

"they killed thousands on 911 with $2 box cutters"? Big deal. I could kill tens of thousands with my finger - if they'd sit still and let me. Do you know how much warning the passengers on the fourth flight had? 35 minutes - that's how late the plane was in taking off. The 35 minutes spelt the difference between the hijackers crashing it into the White House, and crashing it into an uninhabited forest.

The weapon the hijackers used on September 11 wasn't boxcutters - it was surprise. Nobody expected it. (Why, I don't know. In hindsight, it was inevitable.) The problem with surprise is that, unless your enemy is terminally stupid, it's a weapon that can only be used once.

I've pointed out several times, and so have others, that you can still buy glass bottles inside the security perimeter. A broken bottle is a much deadlier and scarier weapon than a $2 boxcutter. But nobody's tried to repeat the Sept. 11 attacks using broken bottles - why not? Because they'd get their asses handed to them by the passengers.

What could a hijacker do with an ice-pick nowadays? He might be able to kill a couple of passengers, but again, so what? He could do a better job in a shopping mall in Boise, and he'd stand a better chance of getting away. Why does it become a national security issue just because it happens on an airplane in flight?

Look at El Al - 31 years to the month before the WTC attacks, two Palestinian hijackers tried to take over an El Al airliner. And they weren't armed with boxcutters - they had guns and bombs. One flight attendant was shot five times (but survived). Wanna know what happened?

The pilot, Captain Uri Bar-Lev, warned the Air Marshals to fasten their seatbelts, then he pulled a maximum negative-G manoeuver which threw the hijackers at the ceiling. (At negative 4-G in an airliner, it's equivalent to being dropped on your head from 12 feet up, and you have less than a third of a second to react.) One hijacker died, the other was knocked unconscious and woke up in handcuffs.

El Al pilots lock themselves in the cabin before the passengers board, and they don't come out until the passengers have deplaned. El Al won't say whether they carry guns in the cabin.

Most El Al Flight Attendants are ex-military and have combat training. You pull an ice pick on that cute 5'2" brunette who served your coffee and she'll probably feed it to you point first.

Wanna know what's so great about that type of security? NOBODY EVEN NOTICES IT'S THERE UNLESS THEY GET HIJACKED.

The security that's been implemented in North America is not even bad security - it's ugly security. It's obnoxious, it's in-your-face, it's all for show. It's a knee-jerk reaction that was never properly thought out. Somebody went "Weapons bad, 2-hour line-ups good" and never considered that those 2-hour line-ups may kill more innocent people than the hijackers did on Sept. 11.

LMAO!! I literal started laughing out load... my wife's like "what's so funny." I actually got in trouble cause I was supposed to listening to her at the time! But I DO kinda look like Henry VIII in profile. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anything sharp like a knife? OK, now we're getting reasonable... and now we're talking about common sense. Which is exactly the point of my original post on this subject. But where do you draw the line even there? You gonna confiscate my non-locking, non-springloaded Swiss Army Tinker with the 3" blade? Knitting needles? A nail file? Just the metal kind, or how about a cheap emery board with a cuticle tip?

Men have carried pocket knives and grandmothers have knitted for generations. When we are so frightened by the terrorists that we change our whole collective lifestyle in the name of "security", haven't we already capitulated to the terrorists to some degree?

I am very worried that my whole country is being turned into a police state, bit by bit. Today they scrutinize me when I get on a plane. Tomorrow, will I have to go through a police checkpoint just so I can drive into work from the suburbs? And every time I hear the term "Department of Homeland Security" I get that quesy feeling in the pit of my stomach, like when I'm about to rappel off a 200' verticle jump. Hopefully, its not going to be fatal but it sure gives you pause.

Got long winded again, sorry! <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You are absolutely right. The airlines are private firms and they can make the rules on their private property. So I seek alternate transportation whenever possible. I've cancelled business trips that I've suddenly decided could be accomplished via internet/phone/conference call.

Now I've only got one problem with "playing by their rules". Where does my government come off taxing my money away from me, and then giving it to them? If I'm choosing not to play, why does the goverment keep anteing up with my money?

Hear, Hear!!

Common sense isn't yet dead! <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Aardwolfe : Very well stated !!! Surprise allowed the terrorists to succeed. Now that such a possibility is recognized, it's unlikely the passengers will allow an unobstructed reoccurence, military training or lack thereof.

Just witness what happened to that pathetic doofus who tried to set fire to his shoes. <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

The only reason we are calling him pathetic is that he couldn't get the bomb wick to light. If the bomb was designed better he would have succeeded.
The pasenger and crew subdued him after minutes of him trying to light the bomb. It was nothing the passengers and crew did that saved the plane but rather faulty bomb design.

Mike

I had a distant cousin join the I.R.A. He proudly sent a photo of his American inspired sawed off shotgun.The chunkhead cut off the wrong end <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Extremist groups of all persuasions have one inate fault and failing : They attract extremists.

miniMe,
Best rant I've seen in a long time. The airport zero tolerance rules that occasionally defie common sense are there because everyone's rear end is on the line up the chain. Behind the scenes common sense security is worthless in a political world where plenty of blame is still being tossed around over 9-11. We've got too many extremists in our political parties that don't give a darn about what's good for America. If you want to find a really good soapbox for the average citizen to stand on, get involved in a local political party executive committee. It doesn't require lots of money - just time and patience. Your voice will be heard. And maybe you'll be able to take pictures of your kids with Mayor Rudy Giuliani like I did - priceless. Regards, Keys

Arn't you suposed to cut off both ends of the shotgun so you can use it almost like a pistol?

Vote, speak, march, write here and for the newspaper, get involved. There are only two ways to get the government to take their hands off you or your stuff (including money, land, mind, body and genetics) - political activism or revolt. If you wait long enough the first choice will be removed.

I agree - what's the point of having a democracy if you don't use it?

But to successfully argue for a change, I think you need to have the facts to back up your argument. If you just write to your congressperson or Member of Parliament and say "I think airport security sucks because I can't take my Swiss Army knife in my carry-on baggage" how far will you get? On the other hand, if you say "I think airport security could be greatly improved at far less cost by doing this-n-that" you've at least given him something he can embarass the government with (if he's in opposition) or make the government look good ("You mean we can improve security AND make it more convenient for the public?")

This is the main reason I was disappointed with Chris's decision to shut down the "Security or Pseudo-security" thread after only four postings. I think a healthy debate on the pros and cons of our existing airport security, not to mention coming up with alternatives that might work better, is not a bad idea. Not that I'm faulting Chris, he does a great job and obviously he doesn't want to allow a flame war to start any more than we do. I'm just disappointed, is all.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There's value in healthy debate for many topics - only some of those topics are relevant here and Chris is authorized to make those decisions.

Please keep posting I have learned much from you over the past few years as we have shared this forum.

Hey, I'm simply lobbying for change - ain't that what you recommended? <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, I think Chris does a fantastic job and I don't envy him having to keep guys like me in line. <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Glad you think my occasional ramblings and rantings are worth reading - I've learned a lot more from this group than I've parted with, but I suppose that's the power of groups - one match lighting a thousand candles, and all that... (Of course, your fingers are going to get burned on occasion, but it's worth it <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )