Ice Axe for General Walking?

Total ice axe newb here. Not talking climbing, but a multipurpose tool for winter walking on icy trails. I have always used ski poles in the past, but sometimes a sturdier tool would be helpful

I see a number of models in the sub-$100 category. How strong are they really?

I would also want to be able to chop toeholds in icy trails and cat holes for sanitation if necessary. (Doubly useful if a few winter trail newbs are following in my footsteps.)

An added bonus would be as a "dissuader" to dogs running off leash on park trails, or urbanized coyotes that have lost all fear of man. A little reach goes a long way, and ski poles are a bit too flimsy.

Thoughts? Recommendations on brands? Better than mounting a hardware store mini-pick on a sturdy walking stick?

Your query caused meto check out the offerings at REI. All traditional ice axes were $100 or lessandwere two brands - Grivel and Black Diamond. Both are respected companies who do not sell junk. All should be adequately strong for their intended use.

I have found an ice axe useful for general walking, especially if I needed its capabilities further on during the trip. Just be aware that an ice axe is an edged tool and should be handled with care. A cover for the pick is absolutely necessary.

If you really want to go all out, check out some of the futuristic ice tools. They are more expensive, so obviously they must be more capable (sarcasm alert!). Actually they work for the more extreme types of ice climbing.

A proper ice axe is rated. The UIAA rating is either 'B' (basic) or 'T'. (technical) Both are used for building dead man snow ankers, so plenty strong. 200KG pick and shaft for the basic rating and 400kg for the technical.



The basic ones have a adze, but the more technical ones, well they might not have them. You need the adze for chopping. Side note, basic ice axes are generally very good toilet roll holders. Just push the shaft in the ground and slide the roll over the pick. Do following park rules.


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For your use a simple straight shaft sounds like the one to pick. The cuvrve is nicer when you have to climb steeper things with it. Check if the head is comfortable in the type of grip you will be using. The black diamond seems to be nicer to grip, if you using it walking stick mode, while the Grivel ones are better if you are holding the shaft, ready to brake mode.

If you want good chopping capability, some weight would be nice.

Another guy here who knows nothing about ice axes, but isn't an ice axe a bit short to use for general walking? I can see having an ice axe available as a tool, but not as a replacement for a walking stick.

Depends. Traditional usage favored an ice axe that functioned perfectly well as a walking stick. Current usage favors a shorter tool, which is better for steeper, more technical terrain. Longer axes are available, but are not as popular as in the past.

Thanks for your thoughts so far. Keep 'em coming.

Length is a concern for a six-footer like me, even though I have long arms. It looks like 75cm (30 in) is the longest in the $100 category.

But I have often shortened an extendible ski pole to use in "alpenstock" mode on flatter trails, with the top of the grip in the palm of my hand, mostly marking time with it except when I need a little push to get over or around some obstacle or protect my knees. I need to measure that length for comparison.

Edit: By the way, when walking on icy trails, you have to bend your knees to maintain balance and traction. That makes you shorter, a little, and keeps you from landing on your backside more than necessary.

i have one and i use it when i'm hiking off trail in the Mississippi backwaters.that time of year when there is not enough snow to ski or use snowshoes but it's still frozen and icy.about 34 inches long it comes up to my waist and i can use it like a cane.


i got this on Ebay some years ago from Germany and i think it's not so much a climbing ax as the sort of thing a hiker would use.



the ax and pick end is sort of dramatic so i have a cover for it when i'm around people.i'm not sure but i read someplace that hotels would rent these out for the weekend ramblers.

the ice spike end and i don't take this on dog walks around town!!

That's gorgeous. I want one! How much does it weigh though?

If I remember correctly, the head of a traditional ice axe should fit in the closed palm of your hand, standing erect, with the point just impaling the ground. If it will be used for walking on semi technical terrain, longer is better than too short.

Doug it's about 2 pounds on my fairly good fishing scale.



here's a shot of the working end without the cover.
this must be fairly old and i assume they used the wire brush treatment to get the rust off.i would not chop any steps with this as there is a hair line crack where the ax is attached but it makes a fine walking stick and i have used the pick end to pull myself a rough incline.

An ice axe can also work pretty well for self-arrest on steep grassy slopes if one slips and starts to fall. "tundra axe"
I've done that once as well as used self-arrest on snow.

I dunno how Canadian police would view walking in the park with one though. It is very clearly a dangerous potential weapon and they might not buy your story about being fearful of falling into a crevasse.

Not a concern, really. The head would be fully enclosed in areas where it wasn't needed. The rest is about appropriate context, dress, and deportment.

There are parks, and then there are parks. For example, a major city within driving distance has one of the longest continuous, urban river valley park systems in North America. It's a deep river valley, with ravines and plenty of slippery and high-angle terrain to play in, goat paths and game trails galore, and a surprising amount of privacy. You can scramble half a day and see very few people; and the ones you meet will "get" your "walking stick" as a handy item. (I typically avoid areas that are paved and baby stroller friendly.)

I am intrigued by the wide variety of hiking staffs, up to and including ice axes, that have been useful over the years, especially in unstable situations like fording streams. In rattlesnake country I always give my stick the point position.

From cheapest to most expensive:

1) a sapling plucked from a brush pile and shaped with a multitool

2)a mop handle found on a beach. With a banged up wrist, I really needed a walking stick. it worked for years...

3) a replacement shovel handle -$2 - modified with a wrist loop
-really tough and versatile

4) a set of collapsible trekking poles (I prefer to use just one at a time) - lightweight and sturdy as well as easy to stow when not in use - probably my most frequently used, although not a very strong rig.

5) a five foot long aluminum staff - really strong but unwieldy in many situations - $60 or so on sale

6) for the hiker who has everything - http://www.bladehq.com/item--Crawford-Knives-Survival-Staff--12525 -must be a bargain at less than $300. Buy me one and I will graciously perform the field testing....

7) When conditions are right, nothing beats a suitable ice axe, but it is definitely a specialized tool

You may also consider a "Hawken Stick" made by TOPS Knives. It is basically a cane length tomahawk. Haven't used one but know TOPS is overbuilt and solid stuff .....

BOATMAN
John

Thanks, but I don't think the Hawken would suit my needs. The ice-penetrating spike at the end of a ski pole or ice axe is the most critical item for winter walking -- it sees constant use.

Reading about alpenstocks, essentially a stout pole with an iron spike on the end, I learned that it was used in conjunction with a "small hatchet," employed for cutting steps. Bring along a rock pick or a geologist's hammer with a ski pole and you would have step cutting capability, at least for easy stretches. It might appear a bit less intimidating.

The first ascent of Mont Blanc in 1786 was accomplished with alpenstocks....

Looks to be a modern version of the Ciupaga.

The Chewbacca?

i would suggest just a plain wood cane.before and then after i had a knee replacement i was using a hiking cane i got many-many years ago in Europe.i took off the metal tip,not spiked,and used it every day.by the time i was post surgery and really not needing it all that much i was still taking it around with me.it came in handy for just not walking but holding doors open,using he handle to pull stuff tword me, reach and pull yourself up using the crook to hold a branch or railing,pushing open doors and herding the dogs thru the kitchen door.it sort of became a extension of my arm and hand.i does not come off as a weapon of any kind as old guys have one everywhere,young guys can fake a limp if anyone gets too nosey.

http://oprishki.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/podhale-45.jpg

This might be just what you want, but it is pricy - http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/2014-bpl-staff-picks.html#.VKkfSHuLXiV

It is not for high angle technical climbs, but more for crossing snowfields -superlight (carbon fiber and titanium) and I would check to see if the longest available length (70 cm)is long enough. For the price, you might be able to order something longer

Nice item! Nice weight! Nice price too.

I'm still interested in a regular ice axe, though, and I'll try to get to a shop to play with one sometime this week (2 hr. round trip). That will settle things out pretty quickly. I like the idea of the strength for winter scrambling in the local hills and ravines -- the equivalent of a gym membership for keeping some level of fitness during these cold months.

As well, when I start asking around I'll bet people in the climbing community have old beater ice axes they'll part with for cheap. Assuming they're restless gearheads like I tend to be. With a new gear category, you don't know what you want until you know what you don't want.

Doug,

Perhaps this chart might help...

It's a matrix that cross references your height with the type of terrain (slope) you will be in to come up with a recommended length of mountaineering axe. As you might have guessed, steeper more technical the terrain means a shorter axe while the reverse is also true.

Hope this helps.

Doug have a look at Ebay "vintage ice ax".they have a few that are made for walking and not climbing.the prices have gone up over the years!

I'm not so sure an ice axe is a good idea unless you have some training under your belt.

An ice axe is basically a specialized tool used in serious winter climbing and can save your life if you fall on an icy slope. But only if you're properly trained in self-arrest techniques.

Which is pretty technical stuff, not something a newcomer could learn from a book. From what I've been taught, one should never use an ice axe without crampons. The two go hand in hand, but again winter mountaineering and ice climbing is serious stuff and should not be attempted without qualified training.

An average hiker will never venture that far and will never need that kind of specialized gear. In unskilled hands, an ice axe is more trouble than it's worth. An ice axe is no substitute for a walking staff or pole, it's primary purpose is completely different. It might also inspire false confidence, which is a very bad thing on a steep icy slope unless you know exactly what you're doing.

If you do want to try hardcore winter mountaineering though, do learn from a qualified instructor first. It will also make it much easier to pick the right gear for the job to begin with.

Tom,

That may be the current concept, but mountaineers have been using alpenstocks and ice axes as walking sticks since long before winter climbing was considered an activity. The most common use in glacier travel is very similar to walking in the winter. Although I commonly use a walking staff (mine is much like an old alpenstock) I have used my glacier ice axe many times in the winter for such uses. I have also used it on snowshoes with a snow basket. For these uses, the training required is a few minutes of practice to avoid poking yourself with it and a good pick guard. If you get into climbing without proper training you could get into trouble, but that is a problem with many tools.

Respectfully,

Jerry

Hiker,

I could not agree with you more. I seldom go into the woods without one of the above. My favorite staff is a 5' or so hickory one that came from the Andrew Jackson Farm, with a great spike I added later. It is a bit hard to fly with so my most often used one is a custom Crawford staff (3-22" sections to fit in a carry on size bag, no spear). If you get to FL (or I get out of here) I will be happy to take a hike with you and let you give it a try!

Respectfully,

Jerry

i like something with a crook at the end for reaching and pulling which is why i prefer a cane to a walking stick.

Not trying to nitpick, but I am talking from the perspective of traditional mountaineering rather than modern "action" sports.

First, there is a big difference between an alpenstock and an ice axe. An alpenstock is basically a long wooden staff with a steel spike. It was used originally by shepherds, hunters and mountain men as a walking aid much like a hiking pole today.

An ice axe is a different and much more modern tool, however. In the Alpine tradition it is always used together with crampons, which are considered *the* primary bit of kit for winter & glacier climbing. An ice axe is used primarily as a climbing aid (pick) and can be handy for cutting steps (adze). It can be used as a hiking pole of sorts, but it's generally too short and much heavier than a proper hiking staff or pole. Also, it's a lot more dangerous because it's easy to fall and impale yourself on the sharp end unless you're careful. So why bother if a hiking pole is all you need?

Obviously, everyone is free to pick their own gear and if an ice axe works for you, it's all good. However, oftentimes people pick some sort of gear more because it looks cool than for any practical value.

So from that point of view I would repeat what I have been taught since an early age, growing up in the Alps: don't bother with an ice axe unless you really have to. If you have the skills to use an ice axe properly you will know already when to bring it along.

As a basic rule of thumb, for any regular walking activity hiking poles will do the trick. If you need to negotiate some minor icy slope or the like, add crampons.

Whenever you need to do serious winter climbing however, using hands as much as legs, it's time to lay the hiking pole(s) aside and use crampons and ice axe.

YMMV.

I remember the one time I was in team of 4 roped up and walking up a glacier with crampons and axes. A local guy just walked up next to us like it's a simple hike without crampons and a alpenstock. He was like twice as quick.

Crampons and axe or just a stick. Big grey area in between them.

Exactly, that was kinda my point though I'm not sure I made it clear enough. When it comes to hiking/climbing aids and economy of movement less is more, generally speaking. And more gear does not necessarily translate into more safety, particularly if you don't know how to use that gear correctly.

Tom,

I understand what you are saying, but the ice axe has been around since the mid 1800's. A common use is that described by hikermor in a previous post -- "It is not for high angle technical climbs, but more for crossing snowfields -superlight (carbon fiber and titanium) and I would check to see if the longest available length (70 cm)is long enough. For the price, you might be able to order something longer" -- describing a superlight axe. They do not always go together (in some places they seldom go together). Often the reverse is true as well, crampons but no ice axe. It all depends on the situation.

I agree that it is not always the best tool for general use, particularly if you have a climbing axe (way too short) but it can be a useful adjunct in cases where it is unlikely to be needed for self arrest. It is one of the best available tools for removing frozen tent stakes while winter camping.

Respectfully,

Jerry

Historically, ice axes were developed well before crampons and step-cutting was a well developed skill. Alpine climbers then (1890-1920s) universally wore nailed boots, which I understand, gripped pretty well on ice, especially at low angles...

Maybe I'm too old and cautious these days, but an ice ax is one of the last things I'd want as a hiking stick. I had one decades ago that I used occasionally, and exclusively in deep snow/ice. Scary pointy and aggressive. Good for self defense during a zombie apocalypse maybe (but be careful because the saw type teeth would act as barbs and make it hard to release the zombie after striking). But a danger to myself as a general purpose hiking stick. Way too short as well. Maybe OK if you're hiking on steep total snow and ice, and you're trained/experienced in using it to arrest falls, but I think too dangerous for a mixed hike where you're mostly on dirt/rock with a few snow/ice patches.

Haertig,

No, you are too young!! ;-)

The short length and saw teeth are newer inventions designed to help in the climbing of very steep pitches. Many of the early ice axes I have seen or seen pictures (late 1800's) are five to six feet long. They were used like a hiking staff for normal walking, a probe (like a hiking staff) on low angle glacier surfaces and for cutting steps and handholds on steeper pitches. The almost mandatory pick guard minimizes the problems in approach hiking (or other uses).

Respectfully,

Jerry

With all due respect, I have no (ice) axe to grind one way or another... But the above is not correct.

Crampons have been around in Europe for at least 1500 years. The alpenstock has been documented at least as early as the late Middle Ages. The ice axe in the modern sense first appeared around 1850, becoming more popular toward the end of the 19th century.

A visit to any dedicated mountaineering museum within the Alpine region will confirm that. So will Wikipedia, even they got it right :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpenstock

Again, YMMV... I love ice axes, the alpenstock, crampons, good ole fashioned rucksack and hobnail boots for what they are. It's just that spending much of my time around the Alps I am somewhat keen to get the facts straight when it comes to our mountaineering traditions.

You are correct. Mea culpa....based on faulty recollection from my prime historical reference. One should check before posting.

Enough of these pointed remarks....

A 4th century Chinese poet named Xie Lingyun was credited with the invention of crampons. He liked to climb mountains apparently. Presumably the European invention was separate.

As a result of this thread, I succumbed to a long held, but unsatisfied desire. I ordered a 90cm (~36") Black Diamnond, Raven ice ax, primarily for use as a hiking stick. It was delivered today. I'm waiting for the bottom pick cover, which shipped seperately. It was $80, with free shipping from Moosejaw.

I love it. Strong, very lightweight, cane length for me. I am a bit concerned about falling on the pick or adz. Anyone know where I can get a pick+ adz cover in leather or Codura? Anything other than the advertised day glow silicone cover. But I like the digging , chopping and hook-on capability.

I have a BD Raven too, but a much shorter one (they make 90cm ones?). It's one of more comfortable ones to hold as a walking stick, but not that great in more technical stuff. I have the BD protectors for all the sharp bits when i'm not actually holding it in my hands. (mounted on my pack, car, etc. I have somebody scratch my car paint by accident and even heard of somebody accidently poking one through the roof of a cabriolet while hitchhiking...)

If you are in a situation you want to chop or use the pick, you are probably standing on snow/ice and want the pick ready to be used when you start to slide.

You probably won't use the adz to often, so you could use the regular BD pick and adz cover, slip of the pick side and tighten the bungee. This atleast protects you from the adz.

I actually like the regular BD covers. Nice bright color and slightly sticky, so you won't loose them too quickly.

So, today I got a cover from Moosejaw for my new , BD , 90cm. Raven ice ax. MisQ., they sent the wrong piece. So, I called and arranged a return. But, in the meantime I had discovered that Camp USA a generic black rubber adz/ top/ pick cover and a similar tip cover. Thus, head protection and a softer hiking grip. Moosejaw stocks them , $4.95 and $1, plus shipping, ~$20 for three of each. I'll let you know if it works as planned.

Congrats! I've recently decided on an ambrela: http://real-self-defense.com/unbreakable-umbrella. Not really for icy conditions (California) but as a walking stick, pull up hook, sunshade.

Alex, I purchased the Unbreakable Umbrella several years ago, when I decided it was time to own a really good " grown up" , formal umbrella. It was/is a great investment. Classy, especially rolled in the included cover/sheath. Large enough for my wife and me, walking arm-in-arm. Blowout proof, but a bit balky on button opening. Damn near indestructible. Enjoy.

Returning to the main topic's subject, I'm thinking about wrapping the shaft of my new BD Raven, 90cm., in whole or part , with bike handlebar tape or racket grip tape. My goal is to improve my handgrip ( on the now bare aluminum shaft ) if I'm reaching out to hook the adz or pick onto a tree or rock, to steady myself while walking/ crossing/ climbing. Any one have any thoughts or suggestions or product suggestions?

None; use gloves. The 'hook the adz or pick onto a tree or rock' does sound like you are using the wrong tool for the job.

I carry both walking poles (knee doesn't like decending) and an ice axe when mountainering.

Tjin: Interesting comment re wrong tool for the job. I'm thinking to use my long Raven in place of a crookneck wood walking stick. My thought was that both have a pointy tip for grip in snow , scree & dirt. The angled pick can be used same as the wood crook, for "hooking on" or "grapple" to steady oneself in stepping up or over, as well as to dig in and anchor the tool. The addition of the adz to the tool, enables digging and (light) chopping. In your opinion, have I made a faulty plan?

An ice axe is a mountaineering tool for snow and ice. Designed to brake when your sliding down a slope, chop snow/ice steps, anchoring in snow (deadman anchors or driven in to the snow vertically) and as a third support when you need more support. Yes most climbers will poke the spike in rock too, since most routes are mixed snow/ice/rock.

The basic ones are fine for ice trails like douwalkabout mentioned.

But for scree and dirt? And to hook the adz or pick onto a tree or rock? If you are off the snow/ice and you are not just above a snow/ice slope, it’s time to pack away the ice axe. No reason to use pointy things when not needed. You must realize, hooking an ice tool and pulling yourself up on it, also means you are pulling a heavy pointy thing towards you when it slips.

Straight axes are not that great at hooking anything. The pick on a straight ice axe is for braking in snow. If you want to hook on to rock, you need a different pull and pick angle to prevent it from slipping. Yes, it probably won’t slip if there is a very aggressive angle on the rock, but unless you have a lots if fresh broken off rock, you probably have far less to hook on. So don't use an ice axe for these purposes.

I have spent a fair amount of time off trail bushwhacking doing field archaeology and SAR, and I don't think any implement of this sort will be of much use in that sort of situation. You will find you want as slim a profile as possible. An ice axe or even a walking stick is likely to be an encumbrance. I particularly would not want to go around hooking rocky outcrops. Your hands are the best implements for that task.

Just hands are often not long or strong enough. With an ice axe you could quickly dig a hole in ice or dirt to make a better grip point/stepping surface for your hand or leg. That's often a necessity even on well established trails.

There's a good reason they are called ice axes and not hiking axes. I would love to see a situation on a "well established trail"-not covered with snow or ice - where an ice axe is needed or useful.

Hmm! Strong opinions. Well, I've only played with an ice axe briefly, so this is mostly hypothetical -- my 2c.

But I can see some summer utility in certain situations. I often walk on trails where invasive, very spiny plant species are an ongoing problem. I have wished more than once for a long-handled digging tool to thin out the herd as I'm passing through. A shovel is too heavy to schlep along; a thin, strong pick on a walking stick would fit the bill.

To quote a movie that (purportedly) quotes a famous American: "I don't care what anything was designed to do, I care about what it can do."

IMHO some of the ideas put forward on this thread are a little unrealistic.

An ice axe is basically not suitable for general walking, it's a specialized tool for ice/winter climbing.

A typical hiker or outdoorsman will never need an ice axe. Unless you've had plenty of qualified instruction in winter climbing there is absolutely no reason to get an ice axe other than novelty value.

I guess you could carry an ice axe in summer on well established trails, but I just can't see why. A small hatchet and a hiking pole weigh about the same and will accomplish a lot more in that sort of situation.

But sure, an ice axe with a serrated pick does look awesome.

You can always think outside the box and improvise, but it may not always be worth the trouble. You could use a hunting rifle as a walking aid and for pounding tent stakes. Would it make sense? Probably not.

Tom,

Although I agree with most of what you said, I must disagree with this statement. I have used my glacier axe (a long one) many times as a walking stick for the approach. Although it may not be as good as my walking stick, it is very suitable. Like my walking cane on the city streets, it provides an excellent 3rd leg in unstable situations. My climbing axe would not, so it goes on my pack and I carry my segmented walking staff.

Again I would not buy one just for general walking - there are better choices IMHO. But they do work well if you have one of the right length and I would not hesitate to take mine if I felt it would be more useful on the particular trail than my staff.

Respectfully,

Jerry

And the spike at the end of the shaft is great for picking up trash, but, yes,it is a specialized tool for frozen water...

Colleagues, Dougwalkabout was correct, many strong (and useful) opinions! To all who were crtical of my planned use, thank-you. Your frank appraisals are appreciated and will require me to review and maybe reassess my plan. That's never a bad thing. To those who were supportive or semi- supportive, thanks also. You've given me some good ideas for plan improvement.

I had such a situation just last summer. The quite popular 9 miles trail, at one place going down along the small creek bed to the scenic waterfall on the ocean beach, had been quickly (in the matter of hours) worn out in one critical place to the level that there were no easy way to get back up the cliff from the beach anymore using just bare hands (people were jumping down the small cliff and eventually destroyed the natural "step stone" below). Those on the beach already were stuck at first, but then had to help each other to get over the cliff back pulling and pushing their friends over about 5.5 feet high obstacle. I'm sure an Ice axe would be a perfect solution there for a late solo hiker (no friends or strangers to help). If not just simply gripping the soft sedimentary rock over the cliff in one hit of the axe and pulling himself over - then using it to quickly dig a couple of dimples or steps in the wall to step on...

Pictures would help,but we must be dealing with some extremely soft rock! A lot would depend upon one's rock climbing/scrambling ability, but at 5.5' height a mantle move might be just the trick. If the rock is really that soft, almost anything, like a tin cup or even bare hands (used judiciously) would provide suitable indents....but that would be cheating. And I thought the Channel Islands had soft, crummy rock!

A trail of use,such as you describe, is not what comes to mind for the phrase "well established trail." It suggests something that is constructed.

Alex: Your story has some interesting social implications...

Dear fellow ETS'ers, are there any social stigma associated with bringing an ice axe to the beach at summer? Just askin'...

It seems I'm not the first one down this track. Petzl and Stubai both took a stab at a hybrid ice axe and telescoping trekking pole. Naturally neither is in production (too expensive anyway) but interesting to look at.


Petzl's version extends to 105 cm:




Stubai's extends to 95 cm:




Also, FWIW, I came across a Seattle company that makes a 100 cm single-piece ice axe (no affiliation): http://smcgear.net/ice-axes-hammers-accessories/capra-ice-axe-100cm.html

"The Lake Wenatchee Trail Helper" 1972

by District Ranger Richard Woodcock

"Universally the most accepted walking stick is the ice-axe"



From the book-

And steep fields of heather.

Great findings! I hope they will get to the market soon.

clearwater, you totally made my day!