20,000 pieces of brass

Just got done polishing and inventorying my cartridge case supply. Looks like I am a little over 20,000 cases. I have enough of the other components to produce about 7,500 rounds, more or less. I won't say how much factory ammo I have in stock.

While I can bulk load most of the stuff I have, my primary reason for reloading isn't economy. It is custom loading cartridges to enhance the performance of my higher end firearms. Being able to consistently call shots at 600-1,000 yards is a high priority.

Coincidentally, I did a bunch of brass cleaning today too. I just got an ultrasonic cleaner and wanted to test it against my tumbler. The ultrasonic does a good job, as does the tumbler. Neither is better, or worse, than the other. With a tumbler you pretty much dump everything in there, turn it on, and forget about it for a while. Ultrasonic takes more "hands on" and you have to tend to it regularly (to stir the cases, restart the cycle - which is short- etc.)

Because you also have to rinse several times after ultrasonic, then air dry for a few hours, I think I prefer the set-and-forget tumbler. When the tumbler is done, you just dump the media out of the cases and you're ready to go on to the next reloading step (which is visual inspection per my routine). With the ultrasonic, you have to wait for the cases to dry, which takes a few hours.

On .223, the ultrasonic did a slightly better job than the tumbler, but not by a great margin. However, on .45colt, the tumbler did a better job than the ultrasonic. Both produced nicely cleaned cases suitable for use in your die sets. But both also left some tarnish and stains on the cases. The looked good, but not "brand new". That is not something I care about. As long as it's clean, that's all I care about.

Now I have a bazillion cases I need to visually inspect. That is my 3rd least favorite task. My 1st least favorite is trimming bottleneck cases. 2nd least favorite is resizing bottleneck cases (because you have to lube them, then clean afterwards).

Favorite cartridge to reload is .45colt. Everything is so large and easy to handle. Unfortunately, the case is so big compared to the charge you put in it, you have to be careful (or use high-volume TrailBoss powder). If I'm out of TrailBoss, I use something on the opposite end - TiteGroup. Very low-volume, but it is not position sensitive, so it works well in that mostly empty gigantic case. 45colt is also my favorite to shoot. Both in SAA revolvers and lever guns.

I have a lot of .45 ACP and 9mm brass. Gonna have to start saving .38 Special brass now that I have a snubbie again.

with the practical pistol games and 3 gun, I'm down to about 1/2 a 5 gal bucket of 9mm brass... don't clean my brass anymore... my AR likes S&B 55grain, and don't shoot any further than 400m or so with it...my reloading bench is a cluttered mess

I can't afford the time to reload. I'm lucky if I get to the range at all.

I can sympathize. Today was the first time in three months that I was able to get some range time in. I didn't loose a lot of skill, but my form was doing the Harlem Shake after only 40 arrows.

I prefer my RCBS tumbler with walnut media embedded with rouge. I prefer the set it and forget it mode, I turn on the tumbler on my way out the door in the morning, and when I get home that night, the brass is clean and ready to be sifted.

I got an RCBS trim pro 2 motorized case trimmer to try to get through the case trimming process a bit easier. It is about as good as I can find. It is a chore.

I like reloading my 44 mag for the same reason. I use powders that pretty much fill the case. I like the heavier bullets. Must be an Elmer Keith influence.

I won't say how much factory ammo I still have. I really don't need to reload, except that I can make more accurate loads than what I can buy over the counter. That's because I can set the overall cartridge length to a particular chamber, and sort components for consistency, and experiment with balancing the load to the barrel etc. I am not as fanatical about it as a lot of competition shooters, but I'd say I can get it 90% of the way there with what I got. Certainly, my guns and ammo are more accurate than I am.

I think I enjoy reloading about as much as shooting. For the same reasons, my fav caliber is 357 Magnum. It's fun to make up loads at all different velocities.

Since the only rifle cases I currently reload for are .223 and .270 (and .270 only rarely), I just can't bring myself to buy an expensive case trimmer. Mostly I reload handgun cartridges, which don't normally require trimming in my experience. I just bought this new Lee Precision trimmer:

http://leeprecision.com/deluxe-quick-trim-case-trimmer.html

It's cheap, so I'm not expecting much. But then, Lee often surprises you with something inexpensive that actually works. I have not gotten a chance to try this new trimmer yet. I have been using Lee's Zip Trim, which is dirt cheap and feels like a fragile child's toy. But despite that, it does a decent enough job trimming. I really can't complain about the Zip Trim for doing a basic job. Not elegant, but it works if you set things up carefully and correctly. I am hoping this new press-mounted Lee trimmer I bought will be a step up from the Zip Trim.

The tumbler tends to leave a blackish dust on my cases and some of the primer holes have a grain of the media jammed in. This grain needs to be removed and the case needs to be wiped clean to avoid depositing the dust in the reloading die. For my .44 Mag. I usually only clean the primer pocket. My bottleneck cases go into the tumbler after decapping and resizing. That removes the lube reliably.
I also started shooting muzzle loaders. That removes need to mess with the brass completely.

with the supply problem, and expense of the centerfire rifle cartridges, we've begun shooting an optional 3 gun match using a .22lr for the long gun... centerfire pistol and shotgun.. but use the 2" and 4" verticals and 4" horizontal steel targets from the STC, along with reduced size silhouette targets for the .22lr... allows a fun match to be shot on a 35y pistol range..

The only supply problem we have around here is the .22LR ammo. I haven't seen any for years now. Luckily I am well stocked for several more years of drought. But you can find everything else easily ... just no .22LR ... not anywhere. I reload all my centerfire, excepting a few that I can buy cheaper than I can reload - 7.62x39, 7.62x54R, 8mm Mauser (well, you can't find the cheap 8mm easily anymore, but I bought a couple of spam cans of the mil-surp stuff back when it was available and cheap).

I abide by the rule, "Buy it cheap, stack it deep". The goal is to keep 8 years supply on hand - enough to make it through a bad president who causes a panic buying spree, then manages to get re-elected.

Haertig... shot the Chevy Truck STC for 5 years in the late 90s... still have a stash of .22lr, but it's days are numbered...we started the match when .223 was unobtanium...

The trim pro is more about processing in quantity. Doing 5,000 223 cases gets pretty old with the zip trim (I used to have one too). It starts feeling like I am going for some sort of yo-yo marathon record after a while.

I got the trim pro because with the power motor and the universal case holder, I can go pretty darned quick and I don't get too fatigued.

My next trip to the range will feature mostly .223 & 9mm. I'm shooting what I can replace easily and at a reasonable price for what it is. .22LR at reasonable prices is currently unobtainium around here. CCI standard velocity and Eley lead round nose can be found occasionally but the last time I checked the price was about .15 per round. It's getting to the point I may contact ammo makers & ask them just how much I would have to purchase to get on their direct ship list.

I have a 5 gallon bucket full of 38 special cleaned brass and another almost full of 9 mm. Most of the rest of the calibers I have no more than a few thousand cases.

I need to get into reloading. I currently don't shoot much my .308 Win and .40 cal, because of the cost of ammo. I bought the ammo I have several years ago. The value of it has more than doubled. I get less joy out of shooting when I just see dollar signs exiting the muzzle. I tend to shoot my 12 ga and .22lr rifle more often.

So, how should a pure beginner get into reloading .308 Win and .40 cal? By pure beginner, I mean I've never done it and have never seen anybody do it in real life.

I bought my first handgun last year and no I didn't buy because of the panic, it just happened that the budget reached that point of the todo list at that time. Ammo went from $14.99/box to $19.99/box from January to April then by May no store had any in stock.
So while I was stopping by Cabelas and walking by the empty ammo shelf I'd walk over to the reloading section.
So I bought a tumbler kit and cleaned the little brass I had so then a press and deprimer (while die set actually) and did that and cleaned it all again.
Finally found primers in stock one day so I bought those and primed then kept watching for other components. I was able to spread the purchasing out over a couple months and buy the tools, books, scale, etc in between.
Finally scored some powder and bullets and was able to start loading.

My cost of just buying the few small quantities that come available still puts me at %50 the cost of equivalent factory rounds. It will take ~1500-2000 rounds to pay for the tools and I loaded between 500-1000 the first year so in a couple years at most the tools pay for themselves and I start to see the savings.

Very few people save money by reloading. They usually just end up shooting more for the same money! Which is not a bad thing.

It's like buying that new super energy efficient refrigerator "to save money". Then you put the old refrigerator out in the garage and continue using it. You can say you "saved money", but really you just increased capacity for the same money (technically, "more money" if you're honest with yourself!)

Have you also considered a good air rifle such as a PCP. They would be perfect for a 35 yard range. Pellets are cheap and plentiful and air guns are excellent for shooting skill practice.

A lot of money is apparently spent on 'bang bang food' but shooting isn't a particularly difficult skill especially when getting to the level where its the consistency of the ammunition that makes the difference i.e. above breathing technique, hold and trigger control.

Why is it that everyone is practicing their shooting so hard that the cost becomes a factor for reloading? i.e. once mastering an air rifle, 1000 yard shooting with 7.62, .303 etc shouldn't be a problem considering the low cost of some rather decent optics available today.

ireckon.. the straight wall pistol calibers typically use a sizing die with a carbide insert that doesn't need any lubrication.. for the .40SW use a Lee sizing die as they size further down the case, which heads off some chambering problems down the line... typically the sizing die also punches out the spent primer, a new primer is inserted by hand or by a primer punch built into the loader, powder is dispensed by volume, and is dropped through a hollow die that bells the case mouth slightly so the new bullet can be inserted easily... the seating die pushes the bullet to the correct depth in the case, and a final taper crimp die re forms the belled case mouth parallel (most modern autoloaders headspace the cartridge on the case mouth)... a revolver will have a roll crimp that rolls the case mouth into a cannelure formed into the bullet, so the bullet does not move under recoil...single stage presses require that the die is changed for each step, so you typically work 50 pieces of brass at a time... a progressive press is a continuous process where the cartridge cases are moved from one station to another with each pull of the handle, and after a complete rotation you get a loaded round with each pull of the handle... you need a good reloading manual... a powder scale to adjust the powder charge dropped by the powder measure... drop 10 charges and move the decimal ie... 43 grains for 10 drops is 4.3 grains per single drop... a caliper to measure the overall loaded length is helpful... stand up to reload, and place a light over your loader so you can inspect that the cases have been charged...a bottleneck case like the .308 takes a lot more pressure to work it through the die, and is typically lubricated... an expander ball will be forced down and back up the case mouth.... bottle neck cases grow with multiple firings, while straight wall cases typically shorten.. military brass may have the primers staked in, and you will need to ream or swage the primer pockets the first time... cases will need to be checked for overall length, and if they get too long, will prematurely grab the bullet in the cannelure, and push the shoulder back while the bullet is being seated, causing chambering problems....start with the straight walled pistol calibers first....if you load primers into tubes, don't stand over the tube in case of a sympathetic detonation... all lead compounds are poisonous, so wash you hands and don't smoke or eat while reloading...other than Lee dies, I recommend the higher end presses from Dillon like the 550 and up...most of the manuals have step by step instructions.... the .40SW is a high pressure round, so do your research on the burn rate recommended for the powder...I got good standard deviation with Win 748 powder in my M1A....I don't load .40SW any longer, so am not up on the current powders, but I think most of the USPSA guys use something along the burn rate of Hodgdon Tite Group

For starters, get a books titled "The ABCs of Reloading". It is straightforward and thorough, but none of that "long haired" language that makes for a hard read. I've loaned my copies to several who expressed interest in reloading.

If you can, find a mentor; someone mature enough to provide safe and patient instruction.

Some places, like Sportsmans Warehouse or Gander Mountain stores, will host basic reloading classes. It makes it pretty handy as they usually demonstrate equipment you can buy right there in the store.

Start with a basic O press. Get a good set of carbide dies for the 40 S&W and some full length dies for the 308.

Unless you shoot thousands of rounds a year, the economics of reloading aren't terribly compelling. For me, reloading was a natural progression of learning ballistics. I wanted to learn more control over the variables, and reloading affords me the opportunity to maximize the optimization. Once I started shooting competition, reloading allowed me to tune my rounds to the guns I use, and still saved me a few bucks.

It also made the transition to muzzleloading fairly straightforward.

I'll admit it doesn't take a whole lot of skill/practice to shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards with a rifle and ammo that are capable of that. You're not going to be doing that on your first outing with a rifle, but you can build to that level fairly rapidly with some training and practice. However, progressing beyond that level of shooting ... I disagree ... it DOES take skill and practice.


??? Have you actually tried shooting at 1000 yards? Even a high-end expensive PCP air rifle isn't going to come close to preparing you. Air rifles are nice, I like and shoot mine frequently. And they do help in practicing some techniques for powder burners. But not for 1000 yard shots. Comparing yourself to a skilled 1000 yard sniper because you're good with an air rifle is a bit much. Most people couldn't even hit a school bus at 1000 yards. Myself probably included, and I have many decades of target shooting under my belt (non-competitive).

AFLM... my sport of choice is multi gun (3 gun) with a 9mm pistol, 5.56 autoloader rifle, and 12ga autoloader shotgun...before the .22lr shortage, I purchased a conversion unit to shoot .22lr in my 5.56 AR... later a dedicated upper was built...this allows me to use my competition lower, with its good trigger to practice with.... some day we may be forced to do as they did in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe and go to air rifles


we follow USPSA multi gun rules, time to exchange magazines is critical.... the score is the total time you take to negotiate the course plus any penalties...center fire rifle targets are typically 400m or less for a 10" MGM flash target.... we shoot reduced range(35y) with the .22lr, and most of the .22lr magazines hold 25 or so cartridges and are easily exchanged, so at this point in time the PCP air rifles aren't competitive... I shot quite a bit of air pistol in my garage in my early days of competition

Les,

Is that picture the Gun Crafters Range?

ireckon,

Although I agree with everything Les says above, You can start at a lesser level (both cost and space) depending on how much you shoot and what. You "can" save money, again depending on what you shoot and how much. I returned to reloading because I am not using my 9mm (9 ball used to be cheap in bulk) as much (IPSC then IDPA then Polite Society) and shooting my 45/70 more (at $2 to $4 per shot). Much as I like the Dillon, I have used my hand press (an RCBS) for the past several years and except for full length sizing the 45/70 cases it is more than up to reloading 50 to 100 rounds after a weekend of shooting. It also takes lots less space and is easier to put away if you don't have a permanent setup.

benjammin has a good idea in a basic O press (again mine is an RCBS) but I have used C presses, Lee Loaders and Lyman tong tools and been happy with all of them for limited loading (a few 10's of rounds at a time). I would recommend you start with the basics (buying many of them used is a great idea, but not dies). Consider asking around, when shooters move to a progressive press, many of them sell their old single stage one.

A good start would (IMO) include the following:

A preferably several good reloading books.
A good basic press.
Dies for the calibers you use most (or that you don't shoot because they are the most expensive). Although a full length die is important for autoloaders if your .308 is a bolt gun you only need a neck sizing die. It will make the brass last longer and improve accuracy if you only have one .308.
A good LOADING scale (don't try to use a kitchen or office scale). Maybe the most important thing you have.
I recommend a good hand primer, it gives you much more control than the one on the press.
The rest is consumables (primer, powder, bullets, lube, etc.)and things you will have around the house (boxes, paper towels, etc.).

Over the years you will end up with LOTS of useful things in addition to these basics and each one will improve the process.

Respectfully,

Jerry

I started reloading last year. I my case the supply situation for ammo for my varmint rifle is less then satisfying (+ the .44 Mag. ammo isn´t exactly cheap).
I took a mandatory reloading class and bought the RCBS master kit. The kit has everything except the dies and components. I am satisfied with it. The kit comes with the Speer Relaoding Manual. The manual is fairly good has a step by step guide. I reload about 300 to 400 rounds per month ( 7x64, 5.6x50, 6.5x55 and .44 Mag).
Straight wall cases are easier to handle. The bottle neck cases of the .308 need a little more care. Every second or forth reloading you may wish to anneal the neck to prevent fatigue. It helps to keep the cases in lots to keep track of their history.
I found it important to set up a process that is followed strictly. That avoids mistakes. You also should have only the components you actually want to use on the table, so you can be sure about the primers and the powder.
If you decide to use a tumbler, check each and every flash hole. One grain of the tumbler media in the hole might spoil your day at the range.
Remember: The more you reload the more money you save. I managed to double my expenses for ammo by reloading.

Jerry... yes, Gun Craft Range in Ruskin


an RCBS Rock Chucker with compound linkages is a good single station press...

I have an RCBS Junior from the early 80's -- I almost went with the Rock Chucker back then, but got a good deal on the Jr. The Rock Chucker is more robust and has always been a great single stage press. I only reloaded .38Spl/.357Mag & .44Mag back then though and the Junior was more than adequate. I still save my brass -- .38/.357, .44, .45 ACP and .308Win. ya never know, one of these days I may find a need...

Why do you de-prime before tumbling?

A coworker broke the pin by de-priming after tumbling. I do not want to risk that.

I don't understand how tumbled/not-tumbled would make a difference there, but maybe your equipment is different than mine.

Static rifle shooting is like riding a bicycle, once you know how to do it it's pretty easy to stay reasonably sharp. Pistol doesn't work that way. Long-range precision rifle, shooting while moving, and presentation from the holster all require regular practice to stay sharp.



Ummm....no. When you're at the point where consistency of ammunition makes a big difference, you're well past the point where you need to practice to maintain the skill.

I am at the point with pistol shooting where a change in ammunition can be seen in change in point of impact, and it can make a difference when shooting at longer distances or a medium distance and smaller targets. Believe me I can tell when I haven't been practicing.

the skill level required to be "good" in USPSA today is outrageous...for whatever reason, I shot one of the worst matches of my life last Sunday... and I've been doing this for over 30 years...as far as number of rounds in practice... the first year I had my first Dillon 450 (pre 550)I was casting my own .45acp bullets... I cast, sized, lubed, loaded, and shot 34,000 rounds (I saved the end flaps of the 1000 primer cartons)

Pistol shooting particularly is a highly perishable skill.

I agree with that. I don't get near enough practice and I can see that a year ago when I was able to practice more I did better.

After tumbling some flash holes are blocked by a grain of the media. Some are jammed in fairly hard and increase the resistance for the pin which pushes the spent primer out. It may be overly cautious to avoid that. I handle the cases for inspection anyway so it´s no additional effort. I also hoped that tumbling might clean the primer pockets. It does not.

That makes sense. What I use in my tumbler comes from a pet store. It is crushed walnut shells that is intended to be cage litter for lizards. It is crushed finer than the walnut shell media you buy specifically for reloading. And cheaper too. The crushed shells are not large enough to jam in a primer hole. But even before I found this lizard litter to use as media, I never ran into a problem using regular sized crushed walnut from a reloading store. You are right, normal tumbler media (walnut shells, corn cob) will not do anything for cleaning out primer pockets if you de-prime first. Neither will the finer crushed lizard litter. Media tends to jam in the primer pockets and cause more trouble than it's are worth. However, with that finely crushed lizard litter I don't experience much of it getting stuck in the primer pockets. I would have to clean a small flake of it out of a primer pocket only one out of 30 or so cases.

I did lots of testing - primed, de-primed, walnut media, corncob media, ultrasonic (both primed and unprimed). My conclusion was that de-priming first serves no useful purpose (for me) and adds an extra step to my reloading sequence (because my Lee Precision dies both de-prime and resize at the same time). When it comes to ultrasonic vs. tumbler, the results are equal. Ultrasonic is more messy and more labor intensive than tumbling. And you have to lay the wet brass out in the sun to dry afterwards. If you include that required drying time, ultrasonic takes longer than tumbling too. If you don't count the drying time (I don't know why you wouldn't), yeah, ultrasonic is faster. But you can't do anything with wet brass, so that's really a false speed increase.

The ultrasonic cleaner will make a small improvement in primer pocket cleanliness if you de-prime first. However, I consider it only a marginal improvement that is nothing to brag about. Maybe industrial strength ultrasonic cleaners would do better at primer pockets, buy my heated 2 liter home model does not.

Rinse deprimed dirty brass in cider vinegar, then rinse in water, then tumble.

Nice and shiny primer pockets.

Or use one of these. Even better. From Sinclair. Helps prevent high primers too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHgEqDD_iOU

If your brass is not too dirty, the big advantage of cleaning (however you do it) after sizing and decapping is that it removes the lube used to size. This needs to be removed before the ammo is used. Depends on the lube you use if this is an extra step. Lots of lubes can just be wiped off in the final check of the ammo, that is what I do most of the time. Brass needs to be inspected after tumbling, among other things to insure all the media is removed. This should catch any media in the primer pocket. If you use a progressive, obviously you must clean and lube before then remove the lube (if it was required - not needed for carbide dies) after you have finished.

Clearwater,

Reaming primer pockets is required on military brass with crimped primers, but probably not be used all the time. I do it on new brass then rarely after that since it often removes some brass and can, over time, loosen the primer pockets.

Respectfully,

Jerry

Reaming is different than uniforming. Uniforming insures the primer pocket is set to a repeatable depth on each piece of brass, and is used in match ammo prep. I find it also does a great job in cleaning out primer pockets in subsequent reloads. It takes no effort, just a gently twist and gets everything out. A good quality uniformer does not take off any brass after the first use and does not enlarge the primer pockets.

This also helps make sure the primer can be seated to full depth and helps avoid high primers which can be very dangerous in some kinds of actions. (Say a break action where closing the gun could set off a high primer, or a revolver where a high primer could hang up the cylinder).

I use a uniformer AFTER I ream out the crimp of military brass.

I tumble mine before and after priming and clean in vinegar. Mine may lay on the ground between trips if I don't find it all so I tumble to clean the worst then vinegar to loosen some of the crud then tumble to knock it off.

I don't really enjoy reloading for reloading's sake...I don't clean brass other than to make sure range trash is not in the case... I do look at it fairly closely when it's fed into the index plate and check for powder in the bullet seating station

sort of blurry, but the two important stations... if you don't have a primer, I transport in a zip loc bag, and there are tell tale flakes of powder in the bottom...final inspection when I load the magazine.... to each his own