Building a cost effective BOB

Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Building a cost effective BOB - 11/22/13 05:14 AM

Building a cheap Bug Out Bag.

I was looking to build a cheap Bug Out Bag for a colleague who asked what I would recommend on a budget, so it was to use some of those Autumn deals, which are currently available. The kit also was specified to be capable of sub zero temperatures in poor weather.

It was not going to use low end junk but some reasonably good specification kit with durability in mind. It turned out more expensive than I thought it would.

Here is how I got on for the Basic Kit that is probably not readily available already within a household. (i.e. doesn't include Outdoor Clothing such as Goretex Rain.snow gear etc)

Backpack/Rucksack – PLCE British Patrol pack 38 Litres – these can be had for £25 (well made copies for £20), well this is what I was able to get on sale. Big enough for a72 hrs kit and is very durable and tough being constructed from camoflauge DPM IRR 1000 Cordura @1.6kg It also has numerous attachment points (Not PALS Molle) to add additional capacity to the pack.

Tent – Vango Mirage 200 - £90 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulhtQ0iI0Bc
2 man 3 pole Semi Geodesic tent @2.8 kg suitable 3 season use, using materials found in higher specification 4 season full geodesic 4 pole mountaineering tents. (Recommended for Duke of Edinburgh Expedition Award)

Sleeping Bag – Vango Latitude 200 – £32 - Sythentic Sleeping bag rated to 2-20C Comfort (EN13537:2002) Limit -2C and Extreme -18C Weight 1.45 kg. (Recommended for Duke of Edinburgh Expedition Award)
Vango sleeping bag
Offset double layer construction to prevent seams getting cold
Polair diamond rip stop shell
Polair silky micro lining
Thermal embrace system
7-hole siliconised hollow fibre insulation
Aluminised reflective interlining
3D enclosed hood with dual draw cord closure
Grab loops
Low profile, wo way auto lock zip
Zip guard
Hanging loops
Internal pocket
4-strap compression stuff sac for easy transport
Arrow foot
Horizontal stitching
Cosy shoulder 50g/m2 additional fill around top opening


Sleeping Pad - Karrimor Explorer X-lite Self Inflating Mat. - £19
Season rating: 4
Tog Value: 4.2
Temperature range: +55 degrees Celsius to -15 degrees Celsius
Weight: 720g
Length: 183cm
Width: 51cm
Thickness: 30mm


Cook System - Karrimor X Lite 2 Person Cookset 2012 - £15 > 2 person camping cookset
Hard anodised aluminium
Suitable for 2-3 people
Mesh storage bag included
Pots nest together for compact storage
Sizes:
1.7L pot (diameter 170x92mm)
1.1L pot (diameter 136x78mm)
0.9L pan (diameter 180mmx46mm)
0.6L pan (diameter 152x43mm)
Weight: 650g

Stove - Karrimor Alpine Stove £16 – Remote Cannister stove with Piezo ignition which can be used with inverted cannister for sub zero operation. - 450 gram Cartridge - £6

First Aid Kit - Karrimor Advanced First Aid Kit -£13.

Total so far - £216 or around $350.

This is without Food, Water Bottles, Water Filter, Navigational kit, Work Tools (Knives, saws, Axes etc) and Specific Clothing or Foot wear

Building a BOB is expensive even with the substantial seasonal discounting!
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 11/22/13 02:29 PM

"Building a BOB is expensive even with the substantial seasonal discounting!"

It certainly is when you are buying brand new, first line material, even when it is on sale. If you start scrounging, it will be much cheaper. Really fine bargains can be found in second hand stores....
Posted by: Denis

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 11/22/13 04:44 PM

I have to ask, but what is the anticipated use of this BOB? What are the anticipated emergencies it is intended to be deployed in and what is the actual probability that such an emergency would occur?

While this is a common type of BOB you see around, I've determined that for my local the likelihood of needing something like this is so low that spending limited funds on this type of gear is not worthwhile - at least for pure preparedness reasons. Realistically, this looks like a decent start at a low-cost backpacking & camping kit, but while the idea that I'll need to leave home and head to the woods alone is romantic, I don't find it overly realistic.

I would think that from a pure preparedness perspective limited funds would be best spent on stocking one's home for bug in (food, water, fak, etc) or, if for bug out, making a BOB that is more society centric (for lack of a better term ... ie., with the assumption that you'd be heading to friends, a hotel or community relief shelter in the event of a disaster).

Again, I realize this maybe local specific and my situation isn't everyone's situation, so I'd be interested in hearing how & when this BOB is intended to be used.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 11/22/13 08:20 PM

Good point, Denis. I more or less have a BOOBIB (Bug Out Or Bug In Bag). For an Earthquake, it's a BIB. If a wildfire, it's a BOB. It all depends upon the disaster de jour.
Posted by: LesSnyder

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 11/22/13 11:22 PM

I am always amazed and thankful for the amount of published information provided by the LDS Church... if you have not already looked over the latest LDS Preparedness Manual it's worth a bit of your time...BOBs start at p162


http://www.tacticalintelligence.net/downloads/LDSPrep-V8.pdf
Posted by: TeacherRO

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 11/22/13 11:25 PM

+1 to surplus stores and buying deals. Keep a list ( on your phone? ) of what you have and what you need for each kit.
Posted by: bacpacjac

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 11/25/13 04:29 AM

I'm a big fan of second hand stores, and in the same vain, one good piece of advice I got when I starting thinking about BOB, was to use things that we already had around the house. Clothes, bedding, pots and pans, bottles, etc. Most of us have extras that can put in a BOB and not be missed.

Don't overlook that value in re-purposing items either. There are a gazillion DIY projects out there that can save you a tonne of dough and are fun to make too. Watch out though, it can be addictive.
Posted by: Phaedrus

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 11/25/13 08:10 AM

That's a good sounding kit. For the most part I don't subscribe to the whole "bug out bag" idea; there aren't many circumstances that I would envision my best option being to run off to the wilderness. But it's good to have a "go bag" of stuff for emergencies.
Posted by: Eugene

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 11/25/13 12:59 PM

Having a BOB doesn't mean run off to the wilderness. To give an example when I was still a kid the farm a mile or so up the road sold to new owners. The first winter there late one night their teen-age son came knocking on our door asking to sue the telephone because their house was on fire. He ran down the road in his pajamas and bare feet so we gave him some shoes and a coat to warm up while he waited. So one of my reasons for having a BOB/Go Bag/Whatever you want to call it was to have a bag with a change of clothes and shoes and keys to the vehicles hanging within reach of where I sleep should I need to get out of the house so fast I can't get dressed.

I've seen it happen again just a couple years ago where neighbors had to evac the house when the dryer in the basement caught fire. I've had to drop and go twice from my home to my parents home 250 miles away when there was an emergency and as my parents get older I predict I may have to do the same again. So we keep "BoB's" packed all the time. Last time for example my mother called me at work to tell me they sent my grandmother home from the hospital so she could spend her final few hours at home. I was able to call home and tell me wife to just grab the BOB's and we left. No running around the house trying grabbing and packing things from the bathroom or trying to do laundry to have enough clothes to wear.

Those are the more likely scenarios that I prep for and keep a "BOB" for.
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 11/26/13 05:31 PM


Quote:
I have to ask, but what is the anticipated use of this BOB?


The specification of the BOB is to allow someone to be mobile (reasonably lightweight, no more than 40lbs) and have the ability to survive over a range of terrain, weather and temperatures (lowest overnight freezing temperatures down to -5 to -10C) for a period of time of around 3 to 7 days. It can also provide useful equipment and dry cold weather clothing even for bugging in, where there is a lack of stored food, no electrical and LPG gas supply and water needs to be made potable for a similar timescale.

Quote:
Realistically, this looks like a decent start at a low-cost backpacking & camping kit


Yes, it is the basis for a BOB. Many BOB videos on Youtube will fail miserably in real world testing e.g.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uopCRI28dcs

A good tent, sleeping pad and a good sleeping bag really isn't a luxury in more challenging conditions.

Cold weather clothing is also very important as clothing found in the wardrobe might not be suitable.

So for Cold weather clothing set will include the following;

MoD Issue Reversible Green / Sand Thermal Bivvy Jacket - £30
Reversible Olive / Sand Colour Thermal Bivvy Trousers - £20
MoD Issue Extreme Cold Weather Socks - £6
Camo Goretex Arctic Issue Cold Weather MVP Hat - £8
British Army DPM Extreme Cold Weather Outer Mitts - £7.50
Goretex DPM Cold Weather Outer Mittens - £10
AFV crew Fire Retardant Base Layer Thermal polo neck - £13
Thermal AFV long johns - £8

Total (excluding Outer Goretex/Event shell) - £102.50 or $166
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 11/29/13 07:22 PM


Bargain Bug Out Boots and Socks etc;

I was able to get some Karrimor KSB II EVENT Trekking/Walking Boots for around £40 ($65) These appear to well made, Vibram Soles with Waterproof EVENT lining. RRP was £99.

http://www.fieldandtrek.com/karrimor-ksb-350-mens-walking-boots-182064

Heavy Duty Trekking Socks were also a bargain with some Karrimor Protek Elite socks at £4.50 a pair

http://www.fieldandtrek.com/karrimor-1-pack-pro-trek-walking-socks-mens-414148

Some Berghaus Yeti Gaiters are on the cards with the money saved, but the price will have to be right! grin
Posted by: gonewiththewind

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 11/29/13 07:39 PM

I have those Berghaus gaiters for Scarpa boots and they are great. They were actually built for the boot, and they form such a tight seal that I can stand in water up to the top of the gaiter and there are no leaks.
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/03/13 02:37 AM


The Berghaus Yeti's are pretty specialist but they are great for snow use and extremely muddy conditions. They are however, quite expensive, I ended up with the British Army DPM versions for 1/6 the price.

http://www.militarymart.co.uk/index.php?_a=product&product_id=1906

It pays to shop around!

Even today I was in my local Outdoor equipment specialist shop. I came across a £25 North Face Base Camp Travel Canister bag.

http://www.thenorthface.co.uk/tnf-uk-en/base-camp-travel-canister/p52330.html

(essentially a Toiletries bag), which was interesting because I had purchased an identical bag (without the TNF Branding) a few days ago for the BOB project.

http://www.fieldandtrek.com/karrimor-wash-bag-784006
Posted by: MDinana

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/03/13 08:51 PM

This doesn't sound like a BOB; it sounds like a camping kit.

BOB is literally that - get the hell out of Dodge (OK, probably lost you on that phrase) and someplace safe - you typically sacrifice comfort for speed. It's not for sipping cups of tea whilst doodling in a sketch book and communing with nature.

Think of it more like: change of underwear, sleeping bag or blanket, a few ways to make fire and purify water, and some food.

"Bugging out" without a place to go isn't bugging out, it's becoming a refugee.
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/03/13 11:04 PM


Quote:
It's not for sipping cups of tea whilst doodling in a sketch book and communing with nature.


A lot depends on the terrain and the weather. I might need to walk over Jocks Road in April on a sunny day to get to where I need to get to when bugging out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw0O_P3l4Bk

It has also even been known for local villages a few miles away in the Sidlaw hills to be cut off for a week or two at a time during winter snow storms. It also starts getting dark during the winter months around 15:30 and begins to get light again 08:30 in the morning.
Posted by: Alex

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/03/13 11:34 PM

The BOB should definitely follow your bug out plan. I'm in the urban environment mostly prone to earthquake, chemical spill, and civil unrest events. So the content of my BOB is to help me safely travel out of the city in any of these events probably to another city or to the provided shelter camp. And then just live there for a while. It's more like a vacation on a budget, than camping in the woods for me.
Posted by: Mark_M

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/04/13 08:15 AM

Originally Posted By: MDinana
"Bugging out" without a place to go isn't bugging out, it's becoming a refugee.


Agreed. But depending on where you live, perhaps camping gear needs to be a part of some people's BoB.

My BoB consists of clothing, cash, documents, medication for me to stay in relative comfort for up to 7 days once I reach safe shelter. There are very few survival items, because it is not a survival kit per se. I do have some minimal food, shelter and water if I get caught outdoors for a night or two trying to reach shelter. In fact I use my BoB practically anytime I travel, just adding or subtracting some items appropriate to the intended activities. After all, a disaster is no less likely to occur when I'm on vacation than home, so why go unprepared?

On the other hand, the GHB in my vehicle is intended specifically to be able to survive outdoors for at least three days, possibly more if the food is stretched or supplemented. This is based on the time, distance and terrain involved in getting home or to my nearest alternate safe location from my office.
Posted by: MDinana

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/04/13 02:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark_M
Originally Posted By: MDinana
"Bugging out" without a place to go isn't bugging out, it's becoming a refugee.


Agreed. But depending on where you live, perhaps camping gear needs to be a part of some people's BoB.


Overall I agree, but I tend to think too many people have the "head to the woods!" mentality ,and will soon realize that it'll be a tent-city. Looking at the OP's list, it seems he's gearing it towards this. IIRC, AFLM lives in the UK, which can be really variable in population density.

In what situation is he planning to bug out?

That's the million-quid question. In most situations it doesn't make sense to leave a structure with a lot of supplies, to go live in the woods with few supplies. If some unspecified event is so catastrophic that his friend's house is uninhabitable, either A) he can go to a hotel, or B) he's going to have a lot of company from other people leaving their devastated houses.

In and of itself the list of supplies looks fine. Like I said though, it doesn't strike me as a BOB, it strikes me as "I'm going camping with the Boy Scouts for a week" type of bag.
Posted by: gonewiththewind

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/04/13 05:22 PM

That is always the big question, what the situation will be and where will you plan to go, along with what contingencies are possible. Without knowing this first your BOB will weigh much more than you can carry as you prepare for every possibility.
Posted by: JBMat

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/04/13 05:47 PM

I figure my BoB will be ready for both a simple go to a hotel and/or go live in the weeds for a bit. If I have it and don't need it, cache. If I need it and don't have it, rats!!

If I'm mobile, as in one of the trucks, who cares how much it weighs? If we have to hoof it, things come out to lighten the loads.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/04/13 07:40 PM

Yeah, my BOB is a truck too.

If I'm bugging out from a wildfire, I'll have loaded it up prior to the bug-out decision and I'll simply drive to a hotel out of the path. If it's an earthquake I'll make a decision based on availability of utilities. Hopefully the truck won't be part of a collapsed former dwelling.

If I need to bug out from SOCAL for some reason (widespread social unrest comes to mind), reliable transportation is a prerequisite. I'll preferably be out ahead of the masses and have fuel stops available to get to my destination, but in BOB mode my truck has food, water and shelter. All I need is (lots) more fuel. Depending on the severity of the social unrest that may be an issue.

In any case, a BOB that looks a lot like camping gear may be exactly what is needed. It all depends...
Posted by: LesSnyder

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/04/13 09:00 PM

you people smile are responsible for my BOB, which is most likely a remain overnight kit....after my first visit to this forum, I purchased one of the Ritter AMK Survival kits and one of the heat sheets...but by and large, the rest was assembled from stuff lying around... the bag, with hydration bladder came off a prize table at a 3 gun match... extra first aid supplies.... toiletries kit... mil surplus stove and Sterno...water filter... spare clothing, gloves and Boonie hat...extra multi tool and SAK.. pruning saw...LMF large fire steel...Silva compass... I don't need the cold weather gear most have, and the shelter gear is a coated nylon poncho, mosquito netting, and a 3mil construction bag... I did splurge for a couple of pouches of freeze dried food, and just added one of the Sawyer mini filters...and as others have commented, I have some heavier equipment in a plastic crate, that can be selectively chosen if need be...without water, the bag is a pretty reasonable 27#... previously posted pic

Posted by: templedog2

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/05/13 12:05 AM

Edged Tools
What single tool or combination of tools would be the most useful: Knife (Small, Medium, Large)? Fixed or Folding?
Hatchet?

For use in Northern Woodlands

Templedog2
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/05/13 12:36 AM

My vote would be for a multitool, a Leatherman Wave, to be more precise. One reason is that is typically my EDC and most likely to be available.

For the most part, if you are really traveling, you will not have a whole lot of time for carpentry.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/05/13 12:54 AM

I'd go for a combination of tools in the form of a large axe, a 6" belt knife a locking folder and the Leatherman MT of your choice (Charge TTi or Supertool in my case). If I'm planning for something I don't plan to have only one tool. I have multiples of the above and when my truck turns into a BOB they are part of the load. YMMV
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/05/13 01:58 AM


A cost effective emergency or bushcraft tool list. (weighs around 3Kg)

Bowsaw - £10.99

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bahco-332-21-51-Bowsaw-21In/dp/B0001IX7T2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_diy_1

Hatchet - £22.39

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hultafors-H008SV-800g-Trekking-Axe/dp/B001J2FIM8/ref=pd_sim_sbs_diy_2

General Purpose Knife - £7.15

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hultafors-Craftmans-Heavy-Duty-GK-HULGK/dp/B004O9MIE4/ref=pd_sim_lp_4

Shovel - £7.60

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Roughneck-68004-Shovel-27-inch-Handle/dp/B003CT4DFE/ref=pd_sim_diy_1

Stainless Steel Fillet Knife - £9.93

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mustad-Fillet-Kn...ds=fillet+knife

Sharpening Stone - £16.41

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fallkniven-DC4-Diamond-Ceramic-Whetstone/dp/B003BUV226/ref=pd_sim_lp_1

Total - £74.47 (Similar to the cost of a Leatherman Wave in the UK)
Posted by: ILBob

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/05/13 04:28 PM

I am not a huge fan of this kind of BOB. Just too heavy to cart around and if you are going to be in your vehicle why do you need all this expensive stuff?
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/05/13 04:40 PM

I would agree with you with respect to the filet knife, but,especially if you are in a vehicle, include the saw and axe/hatchet. Just check out the photos in another thread of the downed trees in Merrie England today...

I once spent the better part of an afternoon whittling away at a large down tree with a machete, the largest tool we had, because the driver of the truck didn't include any pioneer equipment (axe, shovel, saw) in his vehicle EDC. The machete was far superior to my Leatherman, at least.
Posted by: Denis

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/05/13 05:54 PM

Originally Posted By: templedog2
Edged Tools
What single tool or combination of tools would be the most useful: Knife (Small, Medium, Large)? Fixed or Folding?
Hatchet?

For use in Northern Woodlands

When I think about wilderness survival up here in Southern Alberta my current thinking is:
  • If I only have one tool, I want a sturdy fixed blade knife.
  • If I have 2, it would be that knife & a folding saw

From there, I'd add, a SAK or Leatherman as a backup / repairs tool and a hatchet. Actually, the hatchet is the most contentious choice as I often question its utility v. wieght. It always seems to come along when I'm planning an overnight though.

This is talking about foot powered pursuits.
Posted by: templedog2

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/05/13 07:51 PM

These tools would be for traveling on foot. Remember the woodland indians seemed to favor the hachet (tomahawk).

templedog2
Posted by: Alex

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/05/13 07:52 PM

I vote for a good long handle axe (hatchet is heavier) as a single choice for northern woods. In fact, I don't see a single survival task a knife can do which an axe can't. A knife is simply lighter, holds the edge better, and handier.
Posted by: Denis

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/05/13 09:15 PM

To get a bit more specific with my tool list, here is what I have been bringing with me into the woods most recently for overnight trips (in both summer & winter conditions):
  • Fallkniven F1 (4" fixed blade)
  • Bacho Folding Wood Saw (7.5" blade)
  • Wenger S13 (85mm SAK, locking main blade, saw, etc)
  • Gerber Gator Combo Axe (small hatchet ... 8.75" overall length, ~1.5 lbs)

I have found that the F1 & Bacho are more than capable for gathering & processing firewood. The saw especially is a huge benefit ... this became very noticeable when I was processing wood alongside my buddy who was using his larger Gerber hatchet (the Sport Axe I think) when we were out last winter. I was churning out noticeably more wood than he was with a lower overall effort and in less time. Saws simply rock in the woods.

For splitting wood, again I have found that usually the F1 is more than capable at splitting what I typically need to get a good fire going. I do use my Gerber for splitting, but it's usually more out of convenience than necessity.

Regarding the SAK, it usually doesn't get much use. I got lazy and brought some canned food on one trip so I really needed it there smile and occasionally I'll need the screwdriver when swapping out batteries, but mostly it's there just in case.

As I said, the hatchet I never feel is really needed, but I bring it because it does make some wood splitting a little more convenient and I really like it for pounding in my tent stakes. However, I've been eyeing up some hammocks recently so even that utility may not last. If I do switch to a hammock, I think my hatchet will be staying home.

So, based on my real world use of these tools, I put the knife & saw as my #1 & #2 edged tools. As a benefit, the pair weighs under 3/4 of a pound (Bacho 180g, F1 150g); they are an easy combo to bring on any outdoor adventure.
Posted by: Denis

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/05/13 09:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Alex
I vote for a good long handle axe (hatchet is heavier) as a single choice for northern woods. In fact, I don't see a single survival task a knife can do which an axe can't. A knife is simply lighter, holds the edge better, and handier.

I agree with your assessment of the tools, but personally that type of axe isn't something I'd ever bring into the woods with me when travelling by foot; its too large & heavy for my liking. For that reason, I personally give the edge to a good knife (i.e., its something I'd actually bring with me).
Posted by: Alex

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/05/13 11:27 PM

That's understandable. However (looking at your list above), axe can easily replace both large fixed blade (Fallkniven F1), the folding saw, and the Gator mini hatchet - all together. Surely that will be less convenient, but might even save the hiking weight. A synthetic long handle axe could be found in about 4-5 pounds range. Just avoid splitting axes.
Posted by: Denis

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 12:07 AM

True, a longer handled synthetic axe might be able to get close to my combo's weight, but a part of the line of thinking I've developed here is that I don't really consider the hatchet to be a necessary piece of my gear. Largely, I find it is nice to have for some uses (especially as a hammer smile ), but that it really is non-essential (to the point that I really question bringing it along when I evaluate things, like now).

For that reason, I still think I'd favour a knife/saw combo over a long handled axe. The combo is not only lighter (and significantly so), but I would still bet that it would be easier/safer/more efficient to process wood with the saw & knife than it would be with the axe.

Or maybe the combo of folding saw & hatchet might be worth looking at too (I always though the Roselli axe would be nice to have). It would be a bit heavier than most knife/saw combos, but I think the benefit of having the saw is more than worthwhile.

Now that I think about it, I guess that's really my bottom line. If I'm carrying more than a knife, I want a saw to be a part of the picture somehow smile
Posted by: AKSAR

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 01:09 AM

I generally just carry a knife or two, or perhaps a knife and leatherman, but then I'm usually using a stove and not relying on fires, except in extremis or for ambiance. If weight isn't such an issue (as in sea kayaking), and I expect to be using much wood, I might carry a small saw, and possibly a small hatchet. The knife/saw/hatchet combo is very versatile.

I'm partial to the Sven Saw. At slighly over a pound, it's a bit heavier than the Bahco, but has a 21 inch blade. One can do some serious cutting with the sven.

Unless car camping, where weight and bulk is really not an issue, I wouldn't carry a larger axe. Unless I were planning on building a cabin, I can't think of much that I would want to do that couldn't be readily done with the knife/saw/hatchet combo. But then if I'm car camping, I could just as easily throw in my little chain saw! wink

Posted by: Alex

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 01:18 AM

The axe's primary purpose is to cut quite a serious size trees (for fire and shelter), not just splitting some kindling. Sure thing, that's not what a typical overnight walk in the park demands or even allows. But for a survival BoB in rural environment with abundance of trees along the way I would definitely get something like this Fiskars zombie head chopper: http://au.fiskars.com/Gardening-Yard-Car...hopping-Axe-X15

A decent folding saw might be OK for a 2-4 inch twig, but it takes quite a time and effort to saw it, even if it's a dry wood, and the tree is already on the ground. An axe cuts such a piece in 5-10 skillful hits without even breaking a sweat. That's about 10 times faster. Imagine building a full size sleeping wood platform for 2 above the snow with just a folding saw and a knife, it will take half of the day or more. With a long axe - an hour and half - max. Also you don't have to look around for a rare not rotten or dump downed tree trunk for the overnight fire, just find an always crisp dry standing dead tree nearby.

Other points:
- an axe is almost indestructible piece of gear insensitive to abuse, saw and knife are much more fragile tools;
- it's almost impossible to sharpen the saw (at least with the teeth type of folding versions) in the field, an axe can be sharpened with almost any stone.
- an axe is a great hammer for shelter and the camp building tasks.

IMO, an axe is incomparably more effective survival tool than folding saw and a knife all together. But it definitely requires more skill to use in different tasks.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 01:36 AM

Not really part of a BOB, but for travel by car/truck in some parts of the great northern woods a chainsaw can be a useful tool just to get home. Trees fall and sometimes they fall across a road. Not that I've ever done it, but free firewood is always a good thing. Just my luck I drove down that road after the road clearing had progressed to the stacking wood phase. But for those who don't have a chainsaw, an axe or folding saw can still be very useful in clearing the path ahead.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 01:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Alex
Imagine building a full size sleeping wood platform for 2 above the snow with just a folding saw and a knife, it will take half of the day or more. With a long axe - an hour and half - max.


Actually, I do have a hard time imagining a sleeping platform for two above the snow. I would prefer to erect a tent, possibly even a floorless model. I will be warmer and it will take less time. I'll bet a proficient person can build an igloo in about an hour and one half(I am not that dude) and that will be even better. If you snuggle down in the snow, the temperature will be about 32F, while if you are suspended above, you will be subject to whatever the ambient temp might be...-40F?

I, too am a fan of the Sven saw. A spare blade weighs much less than a sharpening stone. But let's face it, if weight is not an issue, that is, if you are not backpacking, carry all of the above. There are good reasons these different tools have been developed. Both saws and axes go back to the Stone Age.
Posted by: AKSAR

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 03:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Alex
The axe's primary purpose is to cut quite a serious size trees (for fire and shelter), not just splitting some kindling. Sure thing, that's not what a typical overnight walk in the park demands or even allows. ..... A decent folding saw might be OK for a 2-4 inch twig, but it takes quite a time and effort to saw it, even if it's a dry wood, and the tree is already on the ground.
A Sven Saw will quite easily cut a 4 or even 5 inch tree or branch. I can't recall ever needing to cut any thing bigger than that.

Originally Posted By: hikermor
Originally Posted By: Alex
Imagine building a full size sleeping wood platform for 2 above the snow with just a folding saw and a knife, it will take half of the day or more. With a long axe - an hour and half - max.


Actually, I do have a hard time imagining a sleeping platform for two above the snow. I would prefer to erect a tent, possibly even a floorless model. I will be warmer and it will take less time. I'll bet a proficient person can build an igloo in about an hour and one half(I am not that dude) and that will be even better. If you snuggle down in the snow, the temperature will be about 32F, while if you are suspended above, you will be subject to whatever the ambient temp might be...-40F?
Yes indeed. I've spent a fair bit of time out in the snow, and a "sleeping wood platform....above the snow" doesn't ring my bell. A tent, igloo, classic snow cave or any one of an infinate number of other improvised snow shelters will be a much warmer way to spend the night.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 01:20 PM

I much prefer to find, rather than build or erect a shelter. The very best is a rock shelter - an overhanging ledge with open space below or the entrance to a cave. The good ones are deep enough that you have good shielding from wind, and are situated so that you get early morning sun and afternoon shade.

You can't find rock shelters everywhere, but in a level forest I have seen upended root balls and stumps that would serve just as well.

My worst night in a rock shelter has been as good or better than my best night in a tent, and it has been achieved with far less effort. The one drawback is that the really good shelters tend to be archaeological sites - please don't disturb the antiquities.
Posted by: Denis

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 04:04 PM

Originally Posted By: AKSAR
... igloo, classic snow cave or any one of an infinate number of other improvised snow shelters will be a much warmer way to spend the night.

Talking about winter shelter building, I've been looking at adding a compact snow shovel (something like the Voilé XLM maybe) to my pack, even for day outings.
Posted by: AKSAR

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 04:32 PM

Originally Posted By: hikermor
I much prefer to find, rather than build or erect a shelter. The very best is a rock shelter - an overhanging ledge with open space below or the entrance to a cave. The good ones are deep enough that you have good shielding from wind, and are situated so that you get early morning sun and afternoon shade.

You can't find rock shelters everywhere, but in a level forest I have seen upended root balls and stumps that would serve just as well.
The presence (or lack therof) of natural caves and rock shelters is highly dependent on the local geology. Natural shelters are extremely common in the generally highly stratified rocks of the Colorado Plateau. Likewise, in humid areas with limestone, caves are common. In other areas, with other geology, true caves may be rare to non existant. Even there, though, one can sometimes find large boulders that can be used with a small tarp to fashion a quick shelter.

As you point out, in forested areas, one can often find downed trees that will often provide good shelter. In forested areas with deep snow, tree wells will often work good. A few minutes work with a snow shovel can turn a tree well into a veritable palace.
Originally Posted By: Denis
Talking about winter shelter building, I've been looking at adding a compact snow shovel (something like the Voilé XLM maybe) to my pack, even for day outings.
In snow country a shovel is a key peice of gear. There are many small, lightweight designs to choose from. If one is traveling in avalanche country a really good shovel, along with probe and beacon is absolutely essential.
Posted by: Alex

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 06:06 PM

Deep packed snow is not always readily available in the dense forest for igloo or snow cave building. While hunting in Siberian taiga (-10F - typically) we used to create 2-3 night open air camps in the woods, building personal or 2 people sleeping platforms around a huge campfire, surrounded by heat reflective and wind deflecting tarps. The platform consists of 2 parallel logs laid in radial (from the fire) direction, covered with smaller logs across them. Very comfortable and warm. Because the bed is elevated above the ground (about 20") it catches heat from the fire much more effectively from all sides. We had no well insulating sleeping pads back then. If you go to sleep on the snow, especially near the huge camp fire, your sleeping bag will be soaked with melting snow pretty quick.

Anyhow, that was just an example of a shelter building requiring a lot of wood cutting. If you travel with just a folding saw you can not build a huge fire, which could keep going unattended the entire night, anyway, and you would never even consider a possibility of building a serious long time shelter requiring more than a dozen cuts or so with that tiny saw.

After all, a wilderness BOB is not for pleasure hiking, it's for sustainable survival away from civilization. The only saw I can see suitable for that is this one:



But getting back to the templedog2 question: if I would face the choice of a single tool in his bug out situation, - it will be a long handle axe.
Posted by: Denis

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 07:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Alex
After all, a wilderness BOB is not for pleasure hiking, it's for sustainable survival away from civilization.

I think we've been coming at the question from totally different perspectives which does explain some of the difference in tool choices. I agree that if I was heading into the wilderness indefinitely that I'd want a proper axe.

Maybe I strayed a bit from the original question but I was really talking from the perspective of what tools I'd want to have with me in the wilderness to make survival (or general outdoors living) easier. As I alluded earlier in this thread, I don't think the idea of bugging out to the woods (indefinitely or not) is anything more than a romantic notion so it isn't something I'd either plan or advocate for. So, for the type of outdoors living and potential survival situations I plan for (other than car camping), the axe doesn't really fit my needs.
Posted by: Alex

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 07:54 PM

The TC subject is cost effective BOB (axe is more economical than folding saw + big knife + mini hatchet you are carrying). We also have discussed several options and several scenarios. One of them, I'm answering to, is from templedog2: bugging out/through Northern Woodlands (dense forests).

The idea of bugging out to the woods might be viable even for an urban dweller as it creates a lot more opportunities for food and clean water procurement compared to an isolated highly populated city struck by a disaster. It's also might be viable in case of hostile military forces invasion, if you'd select to get out of war zone and avoid being captured on the road blocks along the borders.
Posted by: AKSAR

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 08:38 PM

Alex, I suppose that approach would work OK in certain circumstances. In others, not so much.

However, your approach sounds like a lot of work, even with an axe. Probably OK if you have a bunch of folks to share the work, and plan to spend several nights in one spot. Since you apparently had tarps, I would just rig a shelter with those. Even without sleeping pads, you can make a pine bough bed. My experience is that properly done, a pine bough bed can be quite comfortable. I would never put a sleeping bag directly on the snow.

An "open air camp in the woods" might be OK in an area with really really stable weather. In my part of the world it would not be such a good idea. Weather can change very fast around here. Going from clear cold weather at dusk to a dump of snow by morning would not be unusual. Going overnight from clear and cold, to rain would not be unheard of. And if it comes to a real blow, you will want a lot more than "wind deflecting tarps".

An "open air camp in the woods" in Alaska would not be what I would call "sustainable survival". In any case, the discussion is about a BOB, which almost by definition is to be ready to grab for a quick get away (not what you dismiss as "pleasure hiking"). The idea of a BOB is fast and light. Cutting down trees every night to build a bed is not my idea of moving fast. The Fiskars Axe you mention looks like a nice product for some situations. I have (and use) a small wood handled axe that looks to be very similar. I like it a lot for some things. However, for a BOB, a small tent, or tarp shelter would be roughly the same weight. It goes up lightning fast, and comes down fast too. And gives vastly better protection from wind.
Posted by: AKSAR

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 09:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Alex
The idea of bugging out to the woods ....... also might be viable in case of hostile military forces invasion, if you'd select to get out of war zone and avoid being captured on the road blocks along the borders.
The whole E&E thing sounds very romantic, but is way way down my list of likely scenarios.

And even in the highly unlikely event that I had to E&E, doing it your way would almost guarantee getting caught. Freshly cut logs and big camps with wooden beds aren't exactly subtle clues to your location. And your ".... huge fire, which could keep going unattended the entire night..." would be ridiculously easy to find. A SAR helo pilot once told me about how he was able to spot a candle glowing inside a tent on the tundra while he was still many miles off by using his NVGs.

I would make a well concealed camp using a small tent or tarp, or even better use a natural shelter of some sort. When I left I would try to minimize signs that I had been there (not leaving freshly cut logs, wood chips from chopping, big fire rings etc). In fact, I would try to not use a fire at all. If for some reason I absolutely had to have a fire, it would be as small and well hidden as I could possibly make it.
Posted by: gonewiththewind

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 10:26 PM

If you are escaping (which means you were already caught) and/or evading (avoiding capture) you have many more serious problems than what tool to carry. If you were caught, and escaped, you will be lucky to have the clothes on your back. If you are evading, weight is a killer. One of the primary considerations for evading is leaving as little trace as possible, and that means no shelter unless you have a very concealed position, and definitely no fire.

E&E is a very unlikely scenario for anyone on this forum who is not military or working in hostile environments (where people are trying to kill you).
Posted by: Alex

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 10:31 PM

Originally Posted By: AKSAR
And even in the highly unlikely event that I had to E&E, doing it your way would almost guarantee getting caught.

I'm not arguing with that. I just said, that this is one of the examples of legit (non romantic) reason of bugging out into the wilderness. With my beloved axe or without it.

"Bug out" does not necessarily means you continuously run through the woods with your BOB. You're bugging out of your current location to another, safer one. And the winter forest you are familiar with from hiking, hunting, and fishing might be your special bug out destination as well.

For the winter camp building: that's the story and facts from my early childhood. Sure thing, Alaska might be different. It's close to the water bodies from 3 sides, whilst Siberia has strictly continental climate and almost 10 times larger. But I'm not trying to force you to build a camp my way either. It was just a side note smile

Posted by: AKSAR

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 10:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Alex
But I'm not trying to force you to build a camp my way either. It was just a side note smile
Fair enough. These decisions all come down to a highly personal choice of what we each think works best.

I believe I did mention that the Fiskars Axe you linked looks like a very nice tool? If I didn't already have something similar (an older style with a wood handle) I would probably buy one. Who knows, one of these days I might just buy one anyway. smile I just don't think I would back pack it in a BOB situation. smile
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 11:18 PM

Speaking of "beloved axes," if I were to pick and pack an edged tool, I would want to get my dainty little hands on a Pulaski, basically an axe blade on one side married to an adze head on the other. It is a most versatile tool for fire fighting because you can grub in the dirt with the adze - it would probably do for chopping steps in ice (if you were desperate). A lot of lightning strikes never made the headlines because I and my trusty Pulaski were there (along with a nice sharp shovel).

Probably the best tool is the one that each of us has experience with, and is the tool in which we have trust and confidence.

The Colorado Plateau is definitely Rock Shelter City, where they occur around every bend in the canyon, but they can be found in granitic areas as well. Keep an eye out for random boulders piled up on flood plains. If you find one, you have just about guaranteed yourself a good night's sleep.
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: Building a cost effective BOB - 12/06/13 11:24 PM

Glad I didn't mention my new unissued WW1 Folding Wire Cutters and its PLCE pouch in the previous list.. wink

http://www.thesupply-sgt.co.uk/army-wire-cutters-223-p.asp

http://www.surplusandoutdoors.com/shop/a...ire-627114.html

These are heavy duty cutters for barbed wire a top fencing pointing in the wrong direction. eek