How to vet a wilderness survival instructor?

There is a small wilderness survival school in my area. (Actually, there are three or four schools in the 100-mile radius, but these seem to be run by gun people who think because they've hunted a few times and watched some zombie movies, they can teach survival. So I'm not considering them at all.) The instructor for this school has done formal training -- Tom Brown, Wilderness Awareness School, etc. His website is coherently written. He seems sensible and rational. His school seems to have a nature lover's bent (a good thing in my book). I have no idea whether he knows his stuff, whether he knows how to run a class, etc.

I'm planning to call him up and talk to him before I sign up for his classes. But I'm not sure how to vet a survival instructor. What questions would you ask him? How do you tell a good survival instructor from a bad one?

My exposure to real wilderness is... none. Like most people, I've seen only the part of nature that's been made safe for tourists. So I'm not sure I'd be a good judge. Thus I appeal to the wisdom of ETS!

why not just sign up and take the class? you will certainly learn some useful things from him - it may be a combo of nature observations and survival (rather than just pure survival). but he could still contribute to your understanding in many ways.

Pete2

Because I want to spend my money wisely. Because I don't want to waste my time. Because I want good information.

Before you go to a doctor, you want to make sure that he is indeed a doctor -- holding an MD from an accredited institution. You want to make sure that he didn't get his "degree" from a mail-order place in Nigeria after watching three hours of video. Alas, there isn't a simple, standard certification for survival instruction, so it's hard for the prospective student to know who is qualified and who isn't.

Bingley, ask for some references, preferably people who live in other towns. Contact them for their opinion of the course.

Bingley - it's not that critical. if you see a doctor you have an illness, so it needs treatment. a survival class is just about instruction. if you have a real interest in survival, you should do several classes from different instructors (over the years ahead). supplement with your own reading and your own practice. the techniques only work of you do them yourself. taking the class by itself is only a starter - after that the progress is up to you. the advantage of your local guy - is that he's local. so it's easy to get to. it may be good or not. if the class is not expensive, give it a try.

any one class that you take in survival will not suddenly make you an expert, or even competent. that only comes with practice. keep in mind that "serious" classes sometimes dump you out in the middle of nowhere for 3 days, with minimal supplies. the less-serious classes might be an easier introduction.

Pete2

I would want to know how many survival incidents he has personally experienced - scrapes, close calls, etc. What other experiences might qualify him to teach this school?

Apparently there is not a formal certifying body like the American Society of Survival Schools (ASSS) to provide vetting...

BTW, what "part of nature has been made safe for tourists"? Are you referring to national parks and the like. If so, Iamnotso sure that is accurate - plenty of people get into trouble there...

Thanks, hikermor. I wasn't aware of the American Society of Survival Schools. Now that you've made me aware of it, I still can't find it anywhere online, though I found the International Assoc. for Survival and Safety Training. But that doesn't seem to help my little question. Before I posted my query I had searched for a list of certified instructors or accredited schools, but I walked away with the impression that it's a pretty much unregulated field, with independent schools, each with a different orientation, offering their own certification. Perhaps this is the wrong impression.

Pete, I think our approaches are just different. Maybe you're comfortable taking days off from work and dropping $600 just to find out whether this guy actually knows what he's doing, and whether he knows how to teach what he knows. If I can ascertain his quality by asking some smart questions, I'd like to do so in advance. I mean, I'll be spending days in the woods with this guy. I'd like to know that I'll be in good hands.

Have you read Coy Lundin's book "98.6: Keep Your Ass Alive"? Or Kumerfeldt's book? These are the most practical I have found and focus on the proper priorities. If this guy prioritizes wrong, say food above everything else, he is a flake. Schools like these are great for learning new techniques and practicing them, but they need to teach practical skills in their proper priority. Shelter, signaling, water are your top three in order. These books will help to give you a base of knowledge from which to judge the school.

I have been to several DoD SERE schools, and I do teach it to others for a living. I have found these two books to be the best out there for real survival. There are many others that teach great techniques and skills, but a good survival school will teach you to survive in a real situation, and that means having the right priorities.

The school may still teach some great skills. Many people learn a few skills and how to do them really well. If they are teaching some particular skills that you need, and provide some good practice of those skills, it may still be worth it. Only you know what you need, and the time and resources you have available. If the school fits your needs, it will not be a waste.

Hikermor's advice is very sound. Seek out others that have attended the school and instead of asking them if it was good, have them describe the curriculum, the amount of practice, the environment and instruction. Try to get them to be as empirical as possible instead of offering assessments.

You are right that there are many people out there who profess to be experts in the field, but there are few real ones. There are no standards or any governing body to provide any standards. You will be taking a chance on the school regardless of your research.

I have a feeling hikermor was being facetious when he mentioned the "American Society of Survival Schools (ASSS)" I think he meant to say that there is no such thing.

I think that you're best off with reviews of students and a professional resume.

Will the school provide references of former students? Can you call/email them for their comments?

Does the Instructor provide a resume/CV of training he/she's undergone? Do they have formal training as an instructor or are they self taught? Where did they get the formal training from? Military? NOLS?

Also, how long have they been in business?

If they can't, or won't, provide this information, then I'd consider going elsewhere. Also, just because someone's had lots of training doesn't mean they'll inherently be a good instructor.

Yep, I've met some really smart people who could not teach. Looking through the NOLS website I found a youtube video titled "Wilderness Medicine Courses at NOLS". Toward the end she describes the instructors as, "professional educators who have backgrounds in the outdoors and medicine". Knowing how to do is not the same as knowing how to teach.. You need an instructor who knows how to teach. FWIW

"Maybe you're comfortable taking days off from work and dropping $600 just to find out whether this guy actually knows what he's doing, and whether he knows how to teach what he knows. "
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Let me try to offer a couple of helpful comments.

I think you will make better progress if you see your overall learning experience in the wilderness (incl. survival) as a series of small steps ... rather than a big leap. with that in mind, doing a local course isn't such a bad idea at all. i have no idea why the course you are describing costs $600 - but that might be a very reasonable question to call and ask about. also ask what equipment is needed (stuff you need to bring).

YES - i do believe that excellent instruction is worth every penny that you can spend on it. and the same goes for time - worth the extra time that you dedicate to it. as i think back through my own life - the people who trained me in wilderness, survival, and self-defense skills - I am extremely fortunate I got those people. by sheer random luck (and not my brilliance) they were all excellent. and without a doubt, if I had not got the instruction they had offered, I would be dead now. i just woundn't have made it.

so the question I ask you in return is this - how much is your life worth to you?

cheers,
Pete2

Ask him if you can bring along your tent, gas stove/pot, map and compass, sleeping bag and some French RCIR 24 hr rations or are you paying $600 for some sleepless nights being cold, tired, hungry, dehydrated (chances you won't catch or trap anything), headachy, nauseous whilst being seriously lost and disorientated.

If you have $600 to blow on an unhappy camper weekend, then I would actually spend it on some high quality kit. Even Super Army Soldiers have been known to expire due to the lack of a sleeping bag or Goretex Bivi bag etc.

True Wilderness is somewhat rare today, would the video below be considered Wilderness? If it is then bringing along similar gear would be prudent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fhiav90QQdM

What I would like to find are a bunch of mini-schools on single topics. That way you'd be more assured of getting good training (and practice!) in what is being taught. It seems to me that an instructor could easily hide their inexperience or incompetance in a generic weekend long "survival school". When your BS runs out on one topic, just switch to another. It is easy for incompetant people to apear competant using this switch-a-roo technique. Try that with an eight hour class on "fire making". It would be much harder for an instructor to BS their way through something like that. Give me a one day course on "fire making". A one day course on "shelter construction". A one day course on "obtaining water". One day may not be long enough to cover these (and other topics), but you get the idea. The course will be long enough, on a single topic, that the BS would run out early and an instructor would have to have something of substance to back it up.

For example, I could really use a course on "fire making". I have no trouble making a fire under good conditions. But, I have little practice doing it in wet windy conditions. And I have zero practice doing it with no pre-prepared tools what-so-ever (like no firesteel, no matches, etc.) While I always carry a firesteel and BIC lighter while hiking, I would still like the instruction and practice to attempt fire using friction. The actual utility of friction fires might be questionable for someone who is routinely prepared, but it would still be fun to learn, and you can't discount that it will never be of practical use. But before getting to the friction fires, I would want lots of time to practice using "easy" methods - BIC lighter, firesteel, etc. - under adverse conditions. I don't think a firesteel with only soggy natural materials in wind would be considered "easy" anyway.

IMHO, you're not going to get good at any kind of fire making in a one hour subsection of an overall generic survival course. Ditto for other skills being covered in a short time.

I haven't searched for survival courses. But if I did, I would be looking for what I describe above, if such courses actually exist.

Who, me? Facetious? What ever is the world coming to...

Given the lack of certification, fairly high prices for instruction, and availability of good literature on the subject, why not just get out in the woods and work on techniques. Everyone, if they do enough trips, will sooner or later come up against a dicey situation, and will need experience and a set of well honed skills.

Haertig's example of fire making is a perfect example. A lecture in class or even a demonstration won't really do much for you - you need to get out and light fires, especially in less than optimum conditions. You also need to recognize, for that matter, when conditions are not right for making a fire and to do so would be extremely hazardous and unwise. You also need to keep in practice. i used to e quite good at building a fire from available items, but I am now quite rusty. It is so much simpler to carry any of various small stoves and commercial or easily fabricated tinder and firestarter. Same with shelter, accumulating water, etc.

I started my outdoors career before there were commercial classes or schools available, so I am essemtialy self taught. It worked well enough. Just be suitably cautious. The money you save can be spent on suitable gear.

Another "divining rod" to consider: ask about insurance. If this little venture is a genuine business instead of a hobby, it would have to account for the possibility that there is a substantial risk for injury for the customers. A credible instructor/school would likely to be insured up the wazoo to avoid losing the farm in the event that somebody stubs their toe etc. And the insurer would ask a lot of very pointed questions, and require documentation, before signing on. For better or worse, this is the world we live in.

You got me good, Hikermor. You got me real good with that ASSS thing. Thanks for clarifying, Russ. Sometimes a fool needs to get kicked when he's already down. Humiliation is not complete until then.

As for DIY -- I don't think I'm alone in this. I read survival books. I buy gear. I stock up. But it's hard to drag myself out, train myself and practice. I don't get out to nature much as it is, thanks to my job and my duties. Paying good money for a class and having an instructor and fellow students will drag me away from work. It will be good for morale, and it will provide a reasonable learning curve for those of us who are less experienced. I definitely could use the practice time.

Montanero, Hikermor, & Fyrediver -- Asking for references and details about the course seems like the way to go. This is the best suggestion! It will give me a good idea as to whether I should proceed. I have gone through Lundin's book, so I'll know the basics (or at least I'll have heard of them).

Haertig -- You've got a great idea! I'll check the school more closely, with that in mind. It actually seems like they structure their curriculum like the "mini courses" you have in mind.

Doug -- Good business insight! Insurance will definitely tell me something about how serious they are.

Pete -- Thanks for the help!

Liath -- I can't tell which one of your scenarios is better for me. Would I learn more from a high-tech weekend, or a "rough it" weekend? $600 isn't high for training, as far as I can tell. For example, BOSS tuition seems to be in the four-digit range, with many days taken off from work, not to mention travel. The total cost (including lost income) can be several thousand dollars. With some schools, it almost seems like you basically have to put your life on hold and move there. Pretty hardcore.

Your collective input will help me figure out whether this school is worth my money. I am optimistic that this instructor will be able answer the questions satisfactorily and rise to the occasion.

haertig

you raised a good question. if someone is caught in wet stormy conditions in a forest that has been soaked in rain - how do they start a fire and survive? i bet the number of survival instructors who could do that using just primitive methods is only a few in the whole country. that's a tough situation. once you get behind the ballgame, the danger of wet clothes, hypothermia, and inability to start a fire becomes a major risk to survival.

what we learn to do - is what hikermor said. you learn by experience to NEVER get into such a critical situation. even the N. American Indians would carry a small amount of tinder if they knew a storm was approaching ... and often anyways.

my solution is as follows:

1. I can make very good tinder just by using lint from the dryer at home. lint burns extremely well, it can be compacted, and has almost no weight. so I carry some if fire starting is an issue. I ALWAYS have some lint or professional tinder in my backpack.

2. to make sure the fire will start, I also have a combustible liquid. in my case, I will always have "Jungle Juice" on me (100% DEET) because I use it as a bug repellant and never leave home without it. it also burns well. so a few drops of DEET on the lint will make a very effective way of starting a fire from a spark.

3. I carry emergency matches always, but also have my magnesium fire starter as well. both work fine with good tinder.

4. If I was in the woods and knew a storm was coming, then before the rain came I would gather small sticks for kindling and a few large pieces of wood. I would wrap them in a plastic trash bag (to stay dry) and tie them to the outside of my backpack. That way I am 100% positive I can get a good fire going - enough to warm myself while I change into dry clothes, make a good hot drink, and feed myself a good hot meal. Those things - new dry clothes, warm drink and hot food, will turn the situation around completely.

In reality, experienced woodsmen will start this whole process well before the rain ever arrives. They will already have chosen their campsite for the night and they will have built a good shelter - before the raindrops fall. They will have stacked enough wood for a good long fire, and put all their essential gear (incl. clothes) in a safe dry place. That is why the experienced people don't get into trouble out there.

The key is to stay AHEAD of trouble.
Don't let trouble get ahead of you.

BTW, I do agree that 1-day survival courses that go into a lot of detail on particular topics would be very useful to a lot of people. I include myself on that list.

Pete2

(Ring, ring, ring...)

"Hello, 'Live or Die' survival school. May I help you?"

Bingley: "Yes, I have a few questions about your operation."

School: "Sure, go ahead."

Bingley: "Are you a certified ASSS?"

(Click)

Bingley: "Hello? Hello?"

hikermor pulling you leg? I'm shocked.......shocked I say!

I have a hard time lining up 4 schedules to be able to get out and do anything. I do most of me learning and practice in the back yard. learning new ways to make fire for example is done on the ring of the firepit. Kids like to it too since they get to "play with fire".

" I do most of me learning and practice in the back yard"

I do a lot of that too. I've got a family, so it's not easy to get away for the long distances. The thing is, though, once you've got a lot of experience then you can figure out how to test techniques in your own backyard. but without that experience, it's pretty hard to tell what makes sense and what does not.

Pete2

The back yard is great. It is close, the family can participate, you can pull out more different gear if you need it (forgetting it is not a problem). It takes no time to get there. You can turn off your phone to alleviate distractions.

I will ALWAYS practice a skill in the back yard before I try it anywhere else!

Some people don't have a backyard. I can try things out in a public parking lot, I guess, but starting a fire or making a shelter there might get you weird looks at least, and possibly a trip to the police station. I can just imagine --

Police: "What's going on here? Why are you hiding between cars?"

Me: "I was looking for ASSS, but I got nothing. These old guys on the internet tell me I should do it by myself. So I'm just trying different things here -- condom in a sock, rubbing the stick really fast, lying low under the lean-to so people can't see me..."

Police: "You have the right to remain silent..."

Parking lot? Probably not. Public park? Sure, I see that stuff all the time. Here in SOCAL we have what is referred to as interstitial wilderness, open areas in the midst of suburbia. Just don't start any fires you can't/don't put out. This makes much more sense than spending $600 on someone of questionable credentials.

I agree with Montenaro's earlier posts on the two references.

I teach a program at the local community college.

My students are generally those getting back into the outdoors after an absense of many years.

Montenaro is spot on with his recommendation of Kummerfeldt's book. It's a great practical read to get you going in the right direction.

Visit Kummerfeldt's web site at www.outdoorsafe.com

Blake
www.outdoorquest.blogspot.com

Yea, I mean for the initial learning. I'll try to practice a few skills between times when we finally get to take a real trip then I have a list of what to try in real life.

Teaching the kids different knots with scrap baling twine before using the more expensive paracord for on a real trip for example.

I think the level of training/instruction you receive is very dependent on what type of Survival Training you are looking for? Survival Instruction is very different depending on the philosophy, training, and curriculum of the instructor and the school. Modern Wilderness Survival training will be different than a Primitive Survival Training.

As a community we cannot agree on what constitutes 'Survival Training' and/or "Survival Instruction'. There are no governing bodies or legislation in either US or Canada that over see the industry. It is also unlikely that a governing Body can come into existence that is not simply a small group of instructors getting together and certifying themselves as instructor training they way it is done in the SCUBA Business. In Canada their is a group just like that which has been operating for a few years and it has not raised standards, it has simply gotten a few instructors some work.

Anyone can put up a shingle, start teaching, and only word of mouth can really tell you how good they really are. All certification based on the quality and professionalism of the organization. Even the credit course I took at the and the University of Alberta in survival training really were simply training not true accreditation. We live (US/Can) in democracies that value the open market and internet can make your school look very professional. Even 'Participant Comments' which I put up at BWI(boreal.net) could be faked.

You need to ask all instructors/schools what training you will actually receive? What skills will you actually learn? That is what is important, not who they have trained or trained with.

A few years ago I wrote an article about Becoming a Professional Survival Instructor which may be of some interest when you begin to compare the many and varied Survival Schools in North America. I also have a resource page on our Wilderness Instructor Development that might be interesting as well. Cody Lundin also wrote an article that may be of some interest; Choosing a Credible Survival Instructor. Personally I think that he emphasizes book publishing a little to much. Even with my survival book only a few months away, I still believe it emphasizes the senior instructors over the junior ones who may provide good value for the money. Also i have know some very talented instructors who had no interest in book publishing, but were very good instructors.

Remember we are all on a journey and we may be anywhere on that journey when we start instructing or receiving instruction in Wilderness Survival. If we want to learn real skills we need to ask, question, and research before we leap.

The last sentence is so well said and on the mark.

Great information.

Blake

Let me ask you this: if you don't find out how they acquired the knowledge they claim to know, how do you know they actually have that knowledge?

I can think of at least one field where it's possible to invent an ineffective curriculum that feels very effective in the classroom. The students will feel very confident, and they will feel their money was well spent. Until they end up getting a wake up call from reality. You really don't want to be on the receiving end of such a call when your life is on the line.

I read some of your articles actually, and they helped me evaluate schools and form training plans.

"Some people don't have a backyard. I can try things out in a public parking lot, I guess, but starting a fire or making a shelter there might get you weird looks at least, and possibly a trip to the police station. I can just imagine --"

Bingley - not beating up on you here.
If you want to learn - you have to GO OUT there.
when I was single, and later married (no kids) i was out there in the wilderness just about every weekend. we were always gone. always. if I wasn't at work or asleep - I was out there. THAT is how you learn. it's what is vitally important to move up the learning curvem because if you are out there a lot then you will experience all possible conditions ... good, bad and awful. when you are out in the wilderness areas, start trying out the techniques yourself. pick a chapter from a good book and start doing it. it's plain simple. no "wilderness police" to mes with your mind - just don't burn the place down. better to practice on BLM land, and not national parks.

Pete2

there are no guarantees with this kind of thing. best bet is probably to talk to people who took classes from him.

guys whose experience is mostly military are probably not as good a choice as people who have actual real world experience in real world survival situations you may actually encounter.

The answer to this is simple to me, if they are unwilling to talk about their background and training, then you need to steer clear.

"Nature will Eventually Provide the Real Test" no Survival School can really do that

What if there was an independent third-party website where all the schools were listed and past students could post reviews? What if it was started a year ago by a longtime forum member who shall remain nameless whose intitals are "thseng"?

It could be called www.survivalschoolshq.com

Just an idea...

i agree that if they cannot tell you their background, experience and curriculum - something is deeply wrong.

but there's a more basic issue here.
progression.
the way things are done.

the way the vast majority of folks do this stuff is as follows. we get training in wilderness skills - like skiing, backpacking, climbing, kayaking, or mountain biking (to name a few). then we start going on out day trips and weekend trips. then we do tons more trips. then maybe we get extra training. then even longer trips. so by the time that we come to do a "Survival Class", we already have a lot of experience. and we also have some practical experience in what it feels like when things go wrong - meaning we got lucky and survived our screw-ups. this experience is what helps us to judge whether the survival course and instructor really meets our needs.

therefore, Bingley, my suggestion is to delay the survival course and choose courses in outdoors skills. some of these courses talk about certain survival issues anyway. after you build your time outdoors, you will be better prepared for the survival class.

Pete2

Pete, I think you describe the progression from tenderfoot novice to competency quite well. I would offer that by the time one has acquired a bit of experience, the survival class is probably unnecessary. To improve, focus on specific skills - navigation and map reading, fire building (especially in adverse conditions), first aid, and seek out objective accounts and critiques of others survival experiences - not the general garbage found on the boob tube!

To do so in a really productive fashion, volunteer for your local wilderness SAR unit. No handy wilderness nearby? Pity, but you can always move.

Could you not just find a spot a little off the beaten track, park you vehicle and have a wee wander, within a visual of where you parked and camp out with a tent, sleeping bag, stove and then practice getting a fire going. If you can't get a fire going during your bushcraft practice then an overnighter isn't going to be problem if kitted out properly.

For example http://goo.gl/maps/OKwI6 is about an one and half hours drive away from where I live. The only thing to worry about in these parts is the Am Fear Liath Mor coming down off the mountain

"within a visual of where you parked and camp out with a tent, sleeping bag, stove and then practice getting a fire going."

you could and it's an excellent idea. to be more specific. I used to belong to a forum many years ago that focused on Primitive Living and Survival. there was a guy on that forum who really focused on primitive fire making methods. and he did exactly what you just said. he would randomly stop his car along some road in the forest, get out with just a small knife, and challenge himself to build a fire with whatever materials he could forage near the roadside. WOW!!! that's no small challenge, particularly when the weather is not good. but what a brilliant guy. By accumulating all that experience, he was probably the best firemaking expert.

cheers,
Pete2

Practice makes Perfect. For many years while learning my craft I used to go out in Winter taking less and less kit each time as a way of pushing myself. Can I survive well without a sleeping bag? Light a fire with just a striker? Each time I pushed a little harder. I rarely traveled alone on these trips, its good to learn but it is stupid to die trying.

Its part of the learning process to go out in the forest and practice, it just you do need to learn first. I sent a tweet out a few months ago that I think sums up my thoughts on going out to the wilderness before you learn basic survival skills:

"Skydiving; rent aircraft, buy parachute, dive out, you will learn as you go. Insane, but with Survival this happens all the time!" @brucezed August 26, 2013

We have a healthy stock of SPAM and canned ham, that we rotate through the kitchen, by using them in soups and stews and such. We also stock cans of chicken/turkey/ham/salamon, but these aren't as popular with the family so I don't stock as much.

Canned tuna is a staple day hike or quick meal around here. Plain tuna gets paired regularly with mayo and/or relish/pickles, celery, fresh herbs, nuts, or whatever other yummies we have on hand. The little flavoured tunas are a bit pricey but packed with flavour. My personal favourite it to add them to raman noodles, but they're also great in sandwiches, wraps and salads or on crackers. It's probably the most versatile canned meat our family uses.

I've been trying to recreate the flavours using plain tuna but frankly, it's a PITA right now, so I bite the bullet and buy a few cans of the good stuff every week. One or two for my day pack, and an equal number for the panty.

What do you hope to learn?
What are your goals?

Call and ask what are the goals and endpoints of the class.

See if they match.

If not, move on.