Nuts, Bolds, Screws that are decent?

I was assembling a thing in the basement that required #8 1 1/2" wood screws. Easy enough right? So I drill the proper screw size with one of those counter-bore gizmos that cut the perfect sized hole and all that. And over and over again, the screws strip out. Not the threads - the phillips cross-point part. Not using a power driver, just a manual screw driver.

This happens ALL THE TIME with hardware from the local home centers and even the Ace hardware store. I'm sick of it. Surely there is a good source of proper, hard metal wood screws that aren't "drywall" screws or some goofy star-head pattern thing. I just want decent hardware, ideally locally sourced, but I'll order online if I have to. Fastenal? Grainger? Somewhere else?

Phillips screws are designed to slip thus strip, no way around it. Look around and see if you have robertson screws, you can twist the head off those and they won't strip. They are the standard up here, drywall, deck, wood, metal, almost all are robertson drive.

IIRC Phillips heads are DESIGNED to cam out when it jams. It's supposed to damage the driver instead of the screw head or the piece it's being driven into. Check to see if the pilot bit on the countersink is drilling the full length of the hole. If it isn't, it may be jamming early.

The only method I've found for driving them in wood was hard and fast with a power driver under hard pressure.

I like a Philips driver chucked in a brace and bit. Great control and very easy driving. Probably just a bit slower than a power tool.

A great source for quality screws of all types is Mcfeelys.com. They also have detailed recommendations for proper fastener usage. I got tired of the cheap junk at most hardware and big box stores. I am not associated with McFeely's but if you like them, you can always send me money.

This thread reminds me of the fastener factory on Pulaski Avenue in Chicago that I use to pass back in the sixties that had a large billboard on top that stated "We sell screws, bolts, and NUTS TO YOU TOO!"

I dislike Philips head screws for that very reason. Whenever I can, I prefer pozidriv. They are very similar to Philips, and you can use a Philips screwdriver on pozidriv screws, although they may still slip and strip. Some people confuse pozidriv with Robertson, but they are not the same. Robertson are square drive. But I have seen Robertson screws advertised as pozidriv.

First, did you try the 'ole soap trick? Get a bar of soap and roll the screw over the top so you get a little soap in the screw threads. It helps to prevent the screw from binding.

Second, by any chance, could your screwdriver be the issue? Screwdrivers wear over time. After a while they no longer properly fit new screws. They'll slip and bugger the screw heads. Along the same lines, cheap screwdrivers rarely fit right from the get go.

As someone that works with hand-tools for a living I rarely get more than a few years out of a set of philips screwdrivers before they need to be replaced. I consider them a "wear item" like rifle/pistol magazines. When my father would get frustrated with a bad screwdriver he used to take it over to the bench grinder and turn it into an ice pick. Unfortunately this led to axle grease flavored ice being the norm out in the shop.

Good point, Paul810...and something I don't always think about. I tend to think of good tools as being a long term investment, but if you use them daily they will wear out. Funny, I'm acutely aware of this re knives. You often read in the magazines that a good kitchen knife "will last a lifetime" but it certainly won't in a pro kitchen! Knives are a consumable. At home you might sharpen them once a year but a pro cook will sharpen his every few weeks, or even daily in the case of an Itamae. In a few years your chef knife can look like a boning knife!

Ohhh ... this is a big deal for me. I do a lot of "rough" woodworking. My wife & I build horse stalls, loft, stairs, ... in our horse barn. In the last year or so I too have shifted all my work to square head screws.

My favorite source for screws & hardware - and a favorite for many woodworkers - is:

http://www.mcfeelys.com/

Their web site has pretty well organized guides for selection of the right types of screw - the right finishes for the intended use. I actually bought one of their pre-packaged assortments since I'm always needing different sized screws. The one with drawers - it locks closed so I can carry it out to the barn or whereever. I put the box label in each bin and that makes it easy to reorder as the bin gets low.

By the way, if you have never used an impact driver I HIGHLY recommend them. They are very different from a regular drill. Picture having a screwdriver with a bar that extends off to one side. As you turn the screwdriver a hammer comes down and wacks the bar in the direction of the turn providing extra torque.

At first it seemed to me that this extra torque would make things worse, but apparently since it torques in pulses that allows the bit to seat in between pulses, so even a Phillips screw will do well ... or better.

The impact drivers are so powerful they can actually drive a wood screw clear through wood - head and all .... though in use my 18V Bosch has great control.

No pilot holes unless I'm close to an edge - where splitting is a bigger risk.

Oh, and I hate using the small magnetic driver bits (that I've used with my drill for 20+ years). Now I've switched to the long square head bits with the 1/4" hex base - that latch into the impact driver. The square drive actually holds the screw fairly tightly when starting the screw, and no more bits falling on the ground in between uses. The square head bits last a lot longer than the Phillips heads because they simply do slip/strip, so I'm willing to spend a bit more for them.

By the way, I buy all of my cordless tools reconditioned rather than new. Most don't even have scratches - though I'll soon add them.

Thanks for the tip. I'll switch to the impact next time I'm stuck using Phillips.

i just finished putting in a short section of wood fence,4x4 posts and 8ft slats.i used square heads where the 2x4 crossed the 4x4 and phillips head on the slats...i was just using drives that i got out of a fish bowl at my local hardware store.the other stuff was from a big box store.i was stripping out the heads right and left with the driver chattering around.
i'm not a real handy man sort of guy and went back to the big box and asked about that.what i needed was a driver that was the right size! a #2 and by gosh the rest of the fence went up in no time at all.

There is also a combo Phillips and square head in one - that is supposed to be the best of both worlds. Kreg (the pocket hole joint company) started using the combo heads. I've avoided them thinking that the best of both is not as good as a square drive alone. No direct experience with them though.

Silicone spray. You can treat a whole box of screws in seconds. Like the soap only faster.

I've found that while the square drive screws go in easily, they tend to strip out a few years later if you want to remove one. Something to think about for long term if you ever plan to add to / repair / re-use.

If a square drive strips when you try to remove it what chance do you have with a phillips?

I actually just tried to remove some phillips that's probably in the deck rail for over 10 years this past weekend. First it just slips, then I pushed on the driver hard while cranking it, the bit exploded instead. Luckily the heads aren't all the way inside wood so I ended up using a small pipe wrench to remove them.

I boarded up 27 windows on a frame house for a Cat 3 in 2004...my 12v cordless drill died, and Phillips style screws were a pain to start while single handed holding the plywood....I've upgraded to a good 18v (Ridgid) drill and T21 or T25 TorX exterior coated screws for the next go around...a Stanley Yankee Screwdriver in case both batteries for the Ridgid don't make it

JIS drivers looks like Phillips but have a slightly differently-shaped tip that gets a better "bite" on the screw and allows you to get more torque on the screw before cam-out than a Phillips driver.

JIS originated in Asia in electronics manufacturing where Phillips cam-out is much too easy.

A JIS driver will not damage a Phillips screw head (but the reverse is not true). I only use JIS drivers these days for that reason.

Manual JIS drivers exist up to #3. A JIS driver might help but I know of no reasonably-priced source.

Those screws may be sloppily made too. A JIS driver may not get any additional bite if the head cuts are not made to Phillips (or JIS) standards.

the cheap hardware works fine for many applications.

but there is a reason it costs less.

buy as good a screw as you need for the application.

The depth of the hole is less with square drive where a phillips goes about twice as deep. Sure I've had plenty phillips strip bit have had just as many square strip and they are used much less often so the % that strip out is much higher.

I've had better luck with Torx.

From an ex-hardware guy who worked at HD. Rigid's lifetime warranty is a crock. Had a drill guaranteed for life - except they quit making the batteries the next year when they upgraded the drill line.

And I use most any type of screw, but I'm careful to match the size of the bit to the screw.

The Phillips screw was DESIGNED to cam out the driver when too high a torque was applied. It was designed when powered drivers were introduced to the assmbly line and workers were tearing off the heads of screws requiring repair or disposal. If you must work with Phillips head screws, buy best quality bits of the right size and provide a lot of pressure.

The advent of small torque limiters has allowed lots of new screw designs, each with their own design criteria. I like Robertson (square) drive screws but have noticed that many of them are now comming with shallow heads (I am sure that this is less expensive). They were designed to stay on the end of the driver so the assembler could use one hand for the mounting and have the driver and screw together.

The combo square and Phillips was designed to sell in both the US (where everyone has Phillips drivers) and Canada (where Robertson drivers are more common). I have found them the easiest to strip if you don't have a combo driver since you have a lot of thin, unsupported metal.

I like the Torx screw but find it harder to locate in many screw sizes. The JIS is nice, but very hard to work with if you are using Phillips drivers.

Respectfully,

Jerry

Incidentally, McMaster-Carr is a common place to buy these things on the Internet. It's not local and it's not cheap, but the catalog is huge. http://www.mcmaster.com/

McFeely's is also an excellent place for first class screws. Like McMaster (are all these guys Mc's? :-)) they are not local but they usually have excellent prices on good stuff. As always, no affiliation, just a customer.

www.mcfeelys.com

Respectfully,

Jerry

Are you thinking about the Quadrex drive? I went through a 5 lb box of deck screws from Home Depot with that drive without stripping out a single head. Great stuff.

I am very curious about this because I was thinking about switching over to Ridgid mainly for the lifetime batteries. Or what I understood was lifetime batteries. Can they really leave you hanging with a perfectly good drill that they no longer make batteries for?

I can't imagine it's even legal, as it seems a bit like a breach of contract.

Did this happen to you, or to someone you know?

David

It happened to me. I bought a $150 drill on clearance for under $100 and later found it was being phased out for a new series.

The drill was great. Worked like a champ, and so did the batteries, until they got to where they wouldn't hold a charge. I took the batteries back to HD to exchange them. Surprise, they don't carry those anymore.

Being sometimes not stupid, I went to Rigid directly. I had registered the drill with them when I bought it. No luck there either, the batteries were no longer made and they had none in stock.

Is it legal? While not having read every single little bitty word in the guarantee I'm sure it must be.

Won't buy an expensive drill again. Harbor Freight, $20 and when it breaks or won't hold a charge, you don't feel so bad.

Most battery packs of this type that are either NiCad or NiMH are made up of individual cells of AA or C size. you can usually take them apart and replace them yourself.

Ditto on the "lifetime warranty that isn't"

I now have a Ridgid brand drill with 2x dying batteries and a "lifetime replacement" policy that is meaningless.

I only buy hand tools and power equipment from a local home center - where the contractors shop for Dewalt, Hitachi, Bosch and Fein tools.

Expensive but no nonsense.

We've got a store in NJ called Batteries Plus. Not sure if they're nationwide or what, but we give them a lot of business. Whether I need batteries for a drill, a transit laser, a floor scrubber, or a 60 year old bulldozer they've either got 'em, can refurbish them, or can outright make them. They can be a bit expensive, but they also save me a lot of time and money sometimes.

Sometimes they are sub C or sub AA but you can order those from electronics places like digikey or mouser. IIRC both have services where they will join (spot weld) the cells in the config you specify so you don't even have do that, just take apart the old pack and figure out if there are 8 sub C in series and order a set that way and replace yours.

This battery thing is very irksome. I have a Makita 18v lithium drill that the batteries are starting to act a little tired on. Two batteries are $150. A new drill, same model, with two batteries is $180. I understand lithium battery packs aren't cheap, but I find it hard to believe this kit has $150 worth of batteries and only a $30 drill. It doesn't make sense, which make me feel I'm being gouged.

So the Ridgid thing sounded cool. But it blows my mind that a "lifetime warranty" on a tool expires simply because they don't make that exact model any more.

I'd almost rather be gouged by Makita, who at least is up front about it.

David