saw or axe

Incredibly basic question I know but I'm a UK hiker so have never started a fire in my life. And I've ended up in Wales staying weekends at a mountain hut with a wood burning stove. There are logs to fuel it but I have absolutely no idea what is the best way to cut them up. Axe? saw? hatchet? will the wire saw in my possibles kit work?
I suppose a packet of fire starters will light them, or do I need paper as well? Or will making those feather sticks replace the paper?
qjs

I use all the tools mentioned.

An axe and hatchet are heavy and require some skill.

I'd use a saw while learning to use the axe/hatchet. You could use a baton and heavy fixed blade knife to split the wood.

Blake

www.outdoorquest.blogspot.com

I have no experience but this is what Doug Ritter has written on wire saws: “While much lighter in weight and much less bulky, wire saws, often referred to as "commando" or "SAS" saws, are poor tools that are only better than nothing at all. Fine if you want to include them in a pocket kit, but aside from that, a poor idea. They require more energy to use since they cut so inefficiently and are difficult to use, especially so with cold hands or with heavy gloves. Larger "survival" chain style saws work well on larger logs, but are useless on smaller limbs and quite heavy.”

This is what Doug includes in his Aviator Survival Pack:

http://www.gerbergear.com/Outdoor/Gear/Exchange-a-blade-Saw_46036

Jeanette Isabelle

Are you splitting the wood? Cutting sections? Are you hiking in with your tools?

I would not recommend the wire saw for a large quantity of cutting. If weight is not a problem, an axe would be fastest. If the weight is an issue, a hatchet or folding saw would work. The survival chain saws work well if you can hold the wood still, better for large limbs and such if you are alone. This one works very well Unbelievable Chain Saw .

Fox Knives Roman Style Hunter's Axe is the hatchet I carry. Very light, aggressive cutter, easy to keep sharp, comfortable handle.

Ditto what Jeanette said. The typical folding saw you can find in most garden shops is much better than any wire/chain hand saw.

Also, don't forget the saw that you get with the large format (Rucksack/Trekker/Soldier) size Swiss Army Knives.

As for chopping, the Gransfors Bruks Mini-Hatchet is a very nice tool in a small (but pricey) package. Their slightly larger Wildlife Hatchet is also a good choice, but much more care is required when swinging anything sharp.

Thanks folks. Sounds like a folding saw is what I want. Using a hatchet or axe for the first time, when alone in a place with no phone reception, looks like a disaster waiting to happen. Now I remember why Doug doesn't discuss them in his gear guide. And the wire saws and survival chain saws seem to have limitations.
qjs

Regarding the second part of my question. Will firelighters be enough to get a log burning?
qjs

Rather depends on how you need to cut the logs.

Across the grain, a saw (preferably some kind of bowsaw) is always going to be easier.

With the grain, ie splitting, and being in the UK, you could look at a Morris Riving Iron, a traditional tool for splitting smaller wood. Can be had for less than £20.

I find that with a MoD4 Survival Knife with a Fallkneven DC4 + Bacho Laplander + half a dozen Fatwood Sticks it doesn't present too much of a problem getting a fire started when processing 6-8 inch logs.

If using a wood burning stove you may need to quarter or greater the logs if more than 3-4 inch diameter especially if the logs haven't been dried out. Sawing logs generally require less energy than using an Axe. The saw will generally be lighter. The axe will both cut and split logs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5W6r5U7yBE

A 24 inch Bacho Force Bow saw will easily deal with the larger logs and is still somewhat portable weighing 720 gms.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bahco-BAH102423-10-24-23-Bowsaw-24In/dp/B0001IX7TC/ref=pd_sim_diy_6

A major reason to have a saw rather than an axe is in case your dominant hand is unusable due to injury.

A right handed person using an axe or hatchet left handed is an invitation to a disaster. Using a saw left handed could be slow and engender some bad language but it won't cause damage to you and yours.

A saw is definitely easier and more efficient for cutting lengths of wood down into fire-sized pieces from a length perspective (I use one of these). However, if there are logs supplied as the original post suggests, they may already be fine length wise. I find the saw is usually only needed when gathering firewood from the forest.

However, whether you need to cut the wood to length or not, you will likely need to split the wood; you need to start small with your fuel to get the fire going. You can do this with either with a hatchet or by batonning with an appropriate fixed blade knife (the latter is more controlled and, I think, less prone to injury for the uninitiated). However, this assumes the logs will be smaller, if they are a larger diameter then an axe may be needed to split them.

I recently came across the following graphic that explains making a fire well:


Source: Scoutmastercg

While this graphic describes gathering fuel of the appropriate sizes, the other method - especially if all you have are logs - is to process the logs into the various sizes with your knife and/or hatchet/axe.

Not really interchangeable tools, one is for turning longer wood into shorter pieces, another is for turning fatter pieces into skinnier pieces. One can do the jobs of the other but it'll be a lot more labor intensive.

However given the level of development in UK you probably don't have much big trees, so maybe axe can do saw's job easier than vise versa.

Are you asking your original saw/ax question from a survival kit standpoint or a camping standpoint?

If you're putting together a survival kit it depends on the area you'll be going. In my area (nothern midwest U.S.) you really don't need either. There should be plenty of hand breakable dead wood. We're not talking about building giant fires for survival.

If given a choice of one - I'd suggest a high quality folding saw - like the Silky or Laplander.

If you want to get a smaller packing store then I'd recommend the Pocket Chainsaw over wire-type saws.

If you're camping, then I'd recommend a bow saw and a long-handled ax. The Boy Scouts have been using that combination for a looong time with great success.

If you want a box saw that stows away, then consider a Sven Saw or a Trailblazer Take Down Bucksaw. The Sven is easier to unfold and use, but it tends to have some sharp edges in a pack. The Bucksaw's tube is less likely to cause damage.

We don't have the huge Northern Boreal expanse forests such as in North America, but we don't do too badly here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDfH6CgJ6fM

Denis, you beat me to it. I was about to send that same graphic.

Neither of the above. It is quite possible to start a roaring fire without resorting to either a saw or an ax, at least in environments with reasonable woody growth.

Tinder is the finest and driest wood material available - I prefer shredded juniper bark, pine needles, or pine pitch. Gather small twigs, various sizes so that you have a fuel ladder - a "teepee" formation is probably the simplest.

Gather dead wood of the right size per Denis's very fine graphic. these will be f various sizes. Break them to the appropriate length by (1) propping them against something solid and stomping them or (2) bashing them with a heavy rock (a wonderful primordial experience!)

If you must carry a cutting implement, I would recommend a Sven saw or a solid hatchet like an Estwing model. In a good many jurisdictions, wood fires are obsolete and potentially hazardous. For the same weight, you can pack a small camp stove and fuel which will cook your food faster, with less danger, but also without the undeniable ambiance engendered by a wood fire.

Today I was just shown a fairly incredible amount of damage inflicted by some axe wielding goon on some very nice oaks in one of our local campgrounds. Please engage brain and think before chopping....

If wood is the fuel of choice, get one of the small wood burning stoves designed to make it more efficient. One choice is the Vargo Hexagon Wood Stove but I'm sure there are others. The idea being to contain the flames and heat so you need and use less fuel. Small saw, small hatchet, small wood... I like wood fuel that's already dead, taking an axe to a live oak tree is really bad form.

Following on hikermor's line of thought, it is important to know what is allowable in your area. There are really three different scenarios you could face:

1. You have access and can legally use deadfall for your fire ... for this you can follow the exact method from the image I posted. As hikermor mentioned, this can be done with no tools, but a simple knife might help. That said, a saw and even hatchet (or ability to baton) might be nice depending on the nature of the deadfall you find and how long you plan on having a fire for (bigger stuff burns longer).

2. You only have access to logs or larger pieces of firewood (this can happen in some parks where burning deadfall is not allowed) ... in this case you need to know how to process the firewood into the appropriate tinder / kindling / fuel sizes and have the appropriate tools.

3. You can't have a campfire ... a stove is needed, and maybe a candle lantern for ambience .

Basically, you need to know which situation you are walking into to know how to prepare appropriately.

Here are two of my favourite videos about making a split wood fire:

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfpWthydnDw

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sawri36ga1Y

And here's one that explains a twig fire:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brb4usB35WU

This is how I prep a twig fire:

Step 1 - Tinder

A hat full of wood shavings and feather sticks made with my knife, Uploaded with ImageShack.com

Step 2 - Kindling

Pencil lead thick, pencil thick and thumb thick tinder
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Step 3 - Fuel
Bigger pieces of wood

Step 4 - Preparing the hearth for lighting

placed on a platform with a brace so that the kindling doesn't crush my tinder
Uploaded with ImageShack.com

Step 5 - Light the tinder and give CPR as required

Uploaded with ImageShack.com

Step 6 - as the fire burns through the tinder, gently start adding kindling, thinnest to thickest. I don't add more until the flames are confidently through the previous level

Uploaded with ImageShack.com
Uploaded with ImageShack.com

Once the kindling is sustaining the fire, I start to add the fuel, but always stick to thinnest to thickest.


This is how I prep a split wood fire:

I use one of my folding saws to cut logs and branches to length. My Bacho Laplander lives in my day hike kit right now and my Sawvivor is in my BOB:

Uploaded with ImageShack.com

Then I use my fixed blade to baton, or my axe, to split those pieces into the thickness that I want and then follow the same procedure as I do for a twig fire - shavings & feather sticks + pencil lead, pencil and thumb thick kindling + bigger pieces for fuel.




I always take an axe or hatchet in the Winter and Spring. Winter can be rough and make it tough to find dry dead wood and frozen wood is a PITA.

Uploaded with ImageShack.com


Personally, I think wood burns better when it's split, especially when it's damp or wet outside.

I have to second the comments on the wire saws in most cases. I've only seen two that had any chance of working. One that I've had occasion to use was sold by the Boy Scouts back in the late '70s. It was a solid piece of steel (think heavy gauge wire) that had actual teeth formed on it. I recently found one with similar construction. IIRC it's a bit shorter than the BSA model but it might be that my arms are a lot longer now. Other than these two, if size is a factor, get either one of the folding saws or one of the pocket chain saws.

As far as wilderness survival goes, you can make a strong case for fire making being the most essential survival skill, and one that is actually rather intricate. Fire making involves a paradox - the more desperately you need it, the harder it is to achieve. The opposite is also true - it is important to recognize the conditions in which a fire is inadvisable.

In my youth, making a fire and cooking with it was a routine procedure -one that has become less and less common over the years, and for good reason. One should maintain proficiency in constructing a wood fire, but there are fewer and fewer opportunities to maintain proficiency.

A good general approach is to carry good ignition sources, and some highly dependable fire starter/fuel combination - a small Esbit stove with a good supply of tablets and a lighter and matches is a typical cheap and light package. I have have long included a Trangia stove in my SAR pack for its simplicity and reliability - in really cold or wet conditions, I would pack a white gas Primus and plenty of fuel. Me and my buddies came to refer to white gas as "Boy Scout fire starter" (Esbit is undoubtedly a great deal safer).

Just be sure that you can prepare a meal, stay warm, and enjoy all the other benefits of an open fire in whatever conditions you will encounter whatever your approach and your choice of tools.

That's brilliant. Between all those posts I should be able to get something going. Thanks folks
qjs

Great graphic. Going to check out that web site.

I totally agree with hikermor about carrying good tinder with you. The worse the seasonal weather gets, the more I carry.

The two fixed blade knives I'm carrying right now are my Gerber BG USK (ferro rod in the sheath) and the Mora LMF Fireknife with ferro rod built into the handle. One of them makes a nice combo along with the tin of tinder in my pocket, especially the BG, which I've batoned the heck out of with no adverse effects so far.



I think they're both going to get new jute twine (excellent tinder) lanyards, and the BG has a piece of charred lamp wick, wrapped in tin foil in the back of the sheath:



I don't always carry them on my body though, so my usual wilderness pocket fire kit is a tin with tinder, and my little leather pouch with ferro rod, mini folder and some tinder.




The tinder varies depending on what I've found on my last trip or two but here's a few ideas:

Fatwood and jute twine:


Jute twine, cotton ball, birch and cedar bark, hoof fungus and some pine pitch


A more substantial kit, for winter wilderness or my BOB, including a variety of spark/flame and tinder including: BIC, mag bar with built-in ferro rod, matches (in Tylenol tube), lip balm, small folder, tea light, lamp wick, jute twine, med vial of natural tinder, char cloth, esbit cube, etc... all in a tin secured with elastics or ranger bands

Awesome, bacpacjac! You're on a roll with the pics. I carry a lot of the same stuff.

I learn better with visual aids than just words. I always appreciate it when someone includes pics with their post, so I try to return the favour. Besides, I have a baby so I'm always in paparazzi mode.

yeah I agree with the small tomahawk. but I could see that a folding saw might work if I was pressed for weight.

cheers,
Pete2

quick_joey_small,

If I understand your situation correctly, I would not take any of the above mentioned items. Instead I would take one of the smaller splitting mauls (ie the Estwing Fireside Friend http://www.estwing.com/ao_fireside_friend_splitting_tool.php
). Several other axe makers have the same type of tool. I even have a WWII British one hand fire axe that works well for this task. If you are not walking in, or can leave it there, I might even take a full sized one.

For other situations any of the above (ecept maybe the wire saw) are the correct tools.

Respectfully,

Jerry

Thanks Jerry. I think my main problem will be cutting logs down so they fit in and I've bought a folding saw.
BUT now you mention it; what if the logs are simply too thick? I'd need to split them. A maul sounds safer than an axe. I'll give it a go.
qjs

qjs,

No problem. Sounds like you got the right tool. For shortening the logs a saw is certainly best.

Respectfully,

Jerry

While I own and use many (many!) axes, hatchets, and mauls, I am always cautious about inexperienced users. An accident from an axe or hatchet can be very serious.

Also note that an axe with a thin "felling" profile (e.g., Estwing) makes IME a lousy and potentially dangerous wood splitting tool. The cutting head can easily become deeply embedded in the wood without splitting it, requiring all sorts of contortions to get it out.

A good folding or bow saw is a very practical choice for a self-propelled traveller. If you can't split the wood, you can cut rounds off the end that will burn reasonably well.

However, if you split the wood it will certainly burn better. Consider this: the primary hazard with an axe/hatchet comes from swinging it at a target. But you can also use an axe or stout hatchet as a simple splitting wedge and "baton" it with another piece of wood. Much safer. If the wood does not split readily (too many knots), use the saw to cut it into shorter lengths that are easier to split.

And last, a dumb question: have you determined if there is already a splitting axe at the hut?

Doug,

I agree with you that a typical axe or hatchet makes a poor splitting tool. But take a look at the link I posted. This is not a "hatchet" but a splitting maul with a wedge style head.

For the self propelled traveler I agree with you, but that is not the situation we are talking about.

Respectfully,

Jerry

I was just responding to the general thread and not any specific comment.

I have seen those little mini-mauls. Nice idea, but the handle's too short for my taste. Looks like a knuckle buster to me, especially if the wood is tough. Then again, I haven't had a chance to try one.

As for general axes and splitting, their effectiveness varies depending on the profile of the axe (thin for cutting vs. thick for splitting) and the characteristics of the wood itself. A nice straight grain in dead-dry wood splits easily with just about anything. Add a lot of knots or a high moisture content and you can work up a sweat even with a full size maul. The latter is what I usually see in public parks, in great big blocks, and people are chipping away furiously with tiny hatchets (and often wearing shorts and sandals - yikes).

If I use a hatchet I wouldn't split wood in the traditional sense, but lay the wood flat, smack the hatchet into the far end of the wood then twist them in opposite direction to split it.

I don't know that I agree that a tomahawk is a poor splitting tool. but I would definitely agree that a small one is ... I bought a small 'hawk called a "mousehawk" and that thing is next to useless for anything. you do need a certain amount of weight in the head of the tomahawk before it splits wood.

i'll tell you where it comes in handy - at least for me. it's in those campgrounds where all the visitors have gathered up ALL the kindling. so you look around and there is literally not a single small bit of dry branch or twig to be found. all the small dead stuff got burned by Moms and Pops doing smores for the kids. I've got nothing against it. but what usually happens is that you manage to find one huge piece of an old log and there's no way to split kindling off the thing. and you just don't want to throw the whole thing into your campfire - which won't start anyway because you've got no twigs. that's why I usually carry a medium sized tomahawk in my vehicle.

and I do agree that you have to swing them carefully - the wounds from an accident are gruesome.

Pete2

http://youtu.be/X5W6r5U7yBE?t=2m14s

Good stuff. I suppose everybody who processes wood by hand comes to use these techniques. Note that there are no big ugly knots in his wood; that makes things a little more complicated. (At the risk of being picky, he really should be wearing gloves too.)

I was particularly pleased to see he was using a short-handled axe rather than a hatchet. The added reach lets you set up a much safer working situation. The added heft lets you focus on control (i.e., let the axe's weight do the work; your job is to "steer" and determine where the sharp end will come to rest).

Hatchets have their place, but I find it's often necessary to add force during the swing, and that significantly lessens control; combine that with the short swing radius and it's easy to get in trouble. If I have to use a hatchet, I sometimes kneel down to create a safer swing radius.

The sideways splitting technique has limits in terms of the size of wood block it can handle. Also, as he shows, there can't be any length of "overhang" where the wood sits on the block or log that's underneath, because that creates a fulcrum and lever that can flip the other end into your face.

Found it!

It's made by Portland Saw. EZ Cutting Wood Saw Model 97962.
Manual for pictures.

It's only good for smaller pieces and works better if you ignore the manual. Use a small stick to turn it into a bow saw.

Here are links (amazon.com) to the pocket chain saws that I'd mentioned earlier. They are NOT wire-type saws, but rather narrow versions of a typical chain saw.


http://www.amazon.com/Unbelievable-Pocket-Chain-Portable-Camping/dp/B0002YPMSY


http://www.amazon.com/Pocket-Chainsaw-Survival-Tool-Carrying/dp/B000LNQA50

They're both made by the same company.

If your life might depend on it I think I'd go with the second one - with the large loop connectors that could be used even if the cordage snapped and a storage can.

They cut amazingly fast - and if you hold it in an arc (around the branch) it essentially cuts three-ish sides at once.

The only thing to be careful of is - like with any other saw - future movement of the kerf that will pinch the saw blade. Its easier to do when cutting in a arc.

I've only used my pocket chain saw a few times, so I haven't a clue how long it will stay sharp.

Like I said before, my preference is to use a "real" folding saw rather than these. There are several excellent versions available.

+1 on the pocket saws. They're similar to my current kit saw. Gerber has a collapsing saw with a similar blade. I put a replacement blade in a zip-lock freezer bag. They are much easier to carry than the wire saws that work (no sharp teeth sticking out).