COLD situation priorities

Please take time to see through these videos from the Survival Adventure Network. They show a couple of survival situations where volunteers are cold and discusses their priorities.


SAN Cold Water & Hypothermia Prevention
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dju4AOVV1cA


SAN Cold Weather Break Down Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On-IROz0oTE

SAN Cold Weather Break Down Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqCYldk_4XM

SAN Cold Weather Break Down Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2ybP5PucIg

SAN Cold Weather Break Down Part 4.wmv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtFlyBSADyU


SAN Cold Weather Breakdown Review by SAN Survivor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmfuFyZag14

SAN Review and Follow Up.wmv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrNuN6ceWQ0

Briefly your car or canoe broke down and there you are spending a cold night ... but have about one hour before sunset where you can build shelter , find enough firewood for the whole cold night , and at the same time, you have to dry your wet clothing.

I was wondering in such a scenrio, if it was best to spend the first hour running around collecting wood, and not start fire at that stage. My reasons are :

- You really have no choice but collect wood, because after sunset you have to stay put
- No matter how cold it would be initially , it would be even colder at night because(a) it is night, and (b) you are statonary in your shelter so your body temp will drop. In such a situation it is better to push yourself to gather wood in that first hour instead of sitting at the fire .
- Running or moving will help warm you up, although not suiffciently but it won't be as cold as six hours later


So guys what do you think ???
Would you gather wood until darkness forces you to stop and then start your fire , or would you FIRST build a small fire and dry yourself , then think about more fuel ??

I haven't read your scenarios but the specifics besides time to darkness are really important: what season, what is the ambient temperature, is it raining or snowing, how wet are you, what terrain are you in, is your car or canoe still accessible to you? Alaska in winter is far different than the Boundary Waters in summer. Cars are qualitatively a much better shelter for a wet person than no shelter or even a canoe.

Taking out the extremes, I would first stop and assess my situation - what kind of shelter do I have, how wet am I, do I have any other clothes to change into that aren't wet? Can I set up a signal that would attract rescuers in the time before darkness?

If I'm irrevocably wet, I would plan on staying up all night, focusing on not getting any wetter, and trying to stay away from hypothermia. Walking, pacing, jumping jacks. If its raining or snowing, I would focus on shelter - my car or an upturned canoe for starters. Either will keep me directly out of the elements and trap a fair amount of heat, although either will also make a nice coffin in the wrong circumstances. I would gather whatever ground cover I can such as tree branches for insulation under me and over me, and wait the night out. During the night I might have to trade some time out in the wet and cold for time getting my engine (internal heat) running again. I would eat a fair amount of my food rations to ensure I could keep my engine running through the first cold night - assuming I survive, I can focus on drying out and warming up during the next day, and reduce my rations for the amount of time I expect to be lost. Given any adverse circumstances where there is a deficiency in my clothing/insulation or I keep getting cold and wet, I would focus on staying awake to stay alive that first night, and continue to improvise to improve my shelter or my degree of wetness. If I die, I can sleep then.

In reality I carry overnight preps with me on any excursions, but I assume in your scenario those get dumped in the water or lost along the way. If I'm lucky I'll find a cedar tree, which have enough needles underneath and cover from rain above to afford me a chance at surviving a fairly cold night, with maybe some sleep. Or again, a nice final resting spot if the weather doesn't hold.

I'll give it a shot.

assuming that I had some spare clothes that were dry - i would dry off, put on the dry clothes, and i would immediately start gathering all the firewood I could possibly find. and also some stones for heating in the fire. but definitely i would use all the available light to get the max amount of fuel. while walking i would chew some food (granola bars) if it was available. and while gathering wood, i would check for any obvious edible food in the area. i would also find some kindling.

if all the clothes were wet - none dry - then that is a serious situation. i would try to dry myself with leaves, put on whatever clothes were available that gave some protection (wring them out), and gather some wood as quickly as possible. get a small fire going and get the wet clothes started with the drying process, and then be gathering more wood while this was going on.

i've been borderline hypothermic a few times ... it's no fun and i take it pretty seriously.

Pete2

As I've done in a similar situation,I would strip out of clothing,Wring the daylights out of my clothes,beat them against dry rocks,then put my underwear back on,leaving my outer clothes to dry abit on more dry rocks,while I gather fuel for a fire,& assess my present scenario while feeding the flames & adjusting positions of drying clothes,hopefully boiling some water in something!

I can speak from actual experience on this one. Deciding on a spot to shelter and build a fire is the first critical decision; it influences all that follows. It is important that it is sheltered enough that you can build and sustain the fire you will ignite. Even in the desert, fuel is not going to be much of a problem (well, most places)

My priority would be to get the fire lit and burning well. Most times you can actually gather fire wood well after dark; after all, night comes on gradually - you will have about an hour after sunset before you lose all light, and even then, if the moon is up, or your fire is burning well, you will have additional light.

In one of my actual situations, we (a group of four) had stopped moving because we were in steep terrain and were concerned that we would suffer injury if we persisted. It was already dark, we had no flashlight (!). After we built our fire, we were easily able to gather additional fuel safely.

I would say, based on my own episodes and dealing first hand with those of others, that building a fire is the difference between life and death in a good many situations. For one thing, you are no longer moving, so that means you will not fall off the cliff and die. You will get warmer, even if your clothing is wet - you have all night to dry out and several ways to do it. You are also signalling your presence to others, who may be able to assist you (I have witnessed this numerous times).

The psychological value of the fire is immense. It calms and relaxes you, even as it warms. It also provides a focus for the group, and facilitates productive interaction.

In my first ever SAR, a while back, we were searching for three young men who died of exposure in a ferocious snow storm. Investigation revealed that they had tried to light a fire at least twice - unsuccessfully. I made very sure that I have the means to make fire when I go out - I have never regretted the modest extra weight.

There is of course the flip side,where a fire was lit in dry, extreme conditions, triggering mammoth conflagrations, but that is probably fuel for another discussion. I have seen that also. Keep your head screwed on tight when dealing with fire.

Yes, what hikermor said!

A fire can quickly change things from a grueling "we may die" survival situation into a "this will be a great story over beers when I get back to town" adventure.

I watched the first video - seems to be pretty realistic. However, I consider the mythical "pile of firewood big enough to last all night" to be something like Bigfoot: occasionally glimpsed, but always disapears into thin air before you can get a good look.

Couple more thoughts: In general, sitting up by the fire all night is my least favorite thing to do - I much prefer a fully enclosed shelter. I'd probably start by building a very large fire and try to dry off as quickly as possible. Never built a "fire bed" but this might be a place for one. You're boots are probably not going to be really dry by the morning, or the next one. An extra pair of dry socks goes a long way. Jeans... better to just take them off.

I found the first video showed an interesting range of mental attitudes. Two of guys (FLA and EMT) look pretty comfortable. One guy is kind of middle of road. They set up decent shelters and got their fires going to dry their clothes and boil water. At the opposite end of the spectrum was the guy that sat around whining about how wet and cold everything was. He didn't do anything about it, mind you. It looked to me like he didn't do much of anything except whine which proved to me, once gain, that positive pro-active action is the name of the game.

I guess a lot depends on the specific circumstances of an actual situation as opposed to something like this that is contrived.

I suspect a canoe would make a pretty decent makeshift shelter, as would a car.

However, I don't know how well a fire is going to work to keep you warm if you are inside a car.

The wet side of it bothers me. Obviously getting dry is a priority, especially with the cold. But, there are degrees of both wet and cold. If there is no wind, the wet is far less of an issue IMO. I also think it matters just what part of you is wet. Wet extremities are far less of an issue than wet core body areas. I have had pretty much soaked pants legs from the knees down in 15-20 deg F temps and it was not much of an issue when there was no wind. A 15 MPH breeze changes that a lot. Wet feet can be very unpleasant in cold temperatures.

I think the suggestion of wringing out one's clothes to get as much water out as possible probably makes as much sense as any for a first priority.

Collecting as much firewood as you might need for the night is probably a second priority. I also agree with the poster who suggested no pile of firewood is ever enough to last the night.

I don't know what forests these guys are in, but some of the ones I have been in can get very dark very fast. It may be possible to see in a clearing with moon light or the waning sun, and often is, but how much firewood can you find in a clearing? I think you have to go collecting while you have enough light to see by.

In one of Ray Meares programmes he recounts the story of a pilot who splashed down in Alaska. When he swam to shore Ray says 'his next decision saved his life' he took his clothes off, lit a fire and dried the clothes. Wet cotton is death. Note the order: wet cotton is many times faster cooling than even being naked.

Course the best option would be to wear clothes suitable for the climate you are flying over. Being in wet, but still warm, fleece that was rapidly drying itself would be no danger.
qjs

I would agree that polypro fleece is wonderful stuff and i have had significant success with it at alleviating hypothermia, but if you become hypothermic, it alone will not pull you out of the danger zone. You need a warmer environment, usually achieved by starting a fire. A good hot meal helps as well. The insidious thing about H is that one of the first body systems to come under attack is whatever higher reasoning capabilities you may possess, rendering you less capable of recognizing the problem enveloping you. Been down that road and it is not very nice. On at least one occasion, I am pretty sure I was wearing synthetics and little or no cotton. About the only cotton items I will carry any more are bandannas and the occasional boony hat.

Building a fire is often the difference between life and death in cold weather situations.

Whiny guy was pretty irritating. He could have laid on half that blanket and covered with the rest, instead of laying on bare ground. Or better, made am open type shelter where he lay on half while the rest reflected the heat of a low, full length fire. A technique I scoffed at until I tried it one fall night. Also they all could have used more natural materials in shelter construction.

Ok, I watched the "Cold Weather Break Down" series of videos this weekend. In this scenario, there was no excuse. They started out dry, surrounded by tons of dry leaves. I can only image how comfortable they would have been if they had just built the second half of their shelter and used the fire only for cooking.

Seems like the first instinct is often to build a fire. Perhaps if you're already in danger of hypothermia you need to get the fire going before you're incapacitated, but otherwise, I'd start on my shelter first.

This "stay warm by the fire all night" madness has got to stop. Once you build an open shelter with a fire in front of it, you're a slave to the fire. You spend precious calories hauling wood and you can never sleep. I wonder if anyone's ever been killed by trying to maintain their fire...

As for their theory that if they had made the shelter smaller it would have been "easier to heat", it wouldn't have helped very much. With a fire in the open, it heats by radiation only. Unlike inside your house, there is no warm air to speak of. What radiation giveth, convection and conduction taketh away.

By the way, just staying the the vehicle would have been a better option. It would have become an "ice box" perhaps, but what would you call an open lean-to?

All that being said, I actually like this new format of videos! Its neat to see real people making the same kind of mistakes that I have made and learned from. It demonstrates how all the book knowledge in the world only goes so far. At some point you have to get experience. Can't wait to watch the Altoids tin series.

Had my own cold weater/hypothermia test on Mothers day. Was in town visiting my mother and she needed some things from the store so I decided to stretch my legs and walked. It's a bit over a mile from her house there. Clouds were in the far distance to tje south. On the way I noticed heavier clouds rolling in from the west. Already a few blocks away from her home I proceeded. I have long legs and wal fast. Dropping off the disc at redbox was only a few blocks more but the temprature was dropping and it was getting dark at just short of 3 PM/ I hurried through the store and came out to find it dark enough to be dusk. I have long legs and am used to walking and running but halfway back it started to rain. I was dressed in mesh Nike trails that have seen better days, thin socks from wal-mart, jeans, tee shirt and a light denim shirt, open, to cover my EDC toys and a baseball cap. The rain started to sting the back of my neck. I thought it was because it was driven by the high winds. Then I noticed white flecks going past and thought snow. Nope it was pea sized hail. Within thirty very fast paces it was coming down hard. I was in the open with no cover so crowded against a trumpet vinne bush and tried to bury my oversized self in it. It offered some protection. For a whole miniute. Then the hail shifted direction and I was force to move a few feet and hold a plastic bag of groceries on my head to protect my ears from further battering. I was soaked through and in a minute the gutters were over flying and it began to come down harder. I was considering risking a run the two plus blocks to the house when the man of the house called me up on thier porch for shelter/ Fortunately I heard him over my mp-3 player. We stood there and talked as I became borderline hypothermic. Finally the hail stopped and I thanked him before walking the rest of the way in the driving rain. By the time I arrived at my mothers I was shivering and it was getting hard to walk in wet denim. Her yard looked like snow had fallen. It was difficult to get in the house and I had to go out to the Hummer to get spare clothing. Wet denim is also hard to get off when you are shaking. Finally in dry clothing and a wool commando sweater I turned on the heater, which I had been meaning to disable for the summer and made a huge mug of smoke chaser tea. It took hours to get warm and I was sick all night and tired most of today. It had been a very warm day and we live in the desert, but that fifteen minutes I was in the bush being battered could have been very bad under wilderness conditions. So I suggest people train for that type of surprise. I know I will be.

Oh dear, what ever shall we do - build a fire or a shelter first? Decision, decisions....

I all depends on the specific situation, especially the weather conditions. Sometimes shelter is easy and on occasion impossibly difficult. The same is true with fires.

The easiest shelter to acquire is that provided by a rock shelter or overhanging ledge. Not only is it quick and easy - just move in - but the easiest and best nights I have spent outdoors have been camping in rock shelters. Dry and comfortable and they provide ideal conditions for a fire. A good rock shelter can surpass the best tent for comfort and protection.

On the other hand you can spend a lot of time digging a now cave, erecting an elaborate rush lean to when a fire and a tarp would provide all you need.

I have been a 'slave to my campfire" many time and I always got plenty of sleep, or at least rest. The precious calories devoted to gathering firewood also warmed me up. Even on my worst nights, when I truly did not get much rest due to cold and storms, I have always been surprised at how much better I performed the next morning.

Ideally, a fire and the shelter should work together to warm those involved. The drawback to a fire without a reflective shield is that one side of your precious bod will be nice and toasty, perhaps overheated, while the side away from the fire is extremely cold. Even if someone may have been killed tring to maintain their fire, which i seriously doubt, many times more have been killed by their inability to start and/or maintain their fire.

Actually, I'd disagree with this. Being in clothes that are drying WOULD be an issue. Why? Because evaporation is one way that heat is lost (along with convection, conduction, and radiation).

So, yes, you'd be warmer than in cotton, but you'd still be losing heat. Worse if there was a wind (evaporation plus convection). Worse if you're sitting on a cold substance while doing it (add in conduction). And you're going to radiate heat anyway since there's a temperature difference between your body and the environment you're in.

Clothes don't "warm you" per se. They just slow the rate of heat loss to the environment. Your body does the work. Assuming, of course, that you're not carrying some hand warmers, sitting in front of a fire, etc.

You would think, but my real world experiences have been otherwise. I have, on several occasions (classes and training) worn fleece in the water during some very cold weather. Upon leaving the water, the fleece drained excess water rapidly and kept me quite warm as they dried. I believe fleece, like wool has the ability to provide insulation even when wet.

Just my experience-
Pete

I would have to agree with Pete, my experience (though with wool and wool fleece) is that I stayed warm, or got warm while wearing the clothing. Taking it off and wringing water out is a good idea for wool, not as important for fleece. A rain jacket eliminates most evaporation, which will help till you have a fire going.

Thseng

"This "stay warm by the fire all night" madness has got to stop. "

It is not madness. I have spent hundreds of nights out in Baker, Whelen and Forester tents as well as with lean to's made with tarps, boughs or even space blankets (GREAT reflectors) in many environments (most of them with nights below 5, often below 0). I might have had to get up once or twice (now, at my age, that is common even at home) but I always got a good night of sleep. Most of the time with a sleeping bag, but too often without.

The answer to the question still depends on the situation. What do you have with you, what are you wearing, etc.?

Respectfully,

Jerry

This past weekend. my son and I faced windy, rainy conditions. We started mostly dry and got settled into camp before the wind and rainy really kicked up. Our priorities were:

1. Get a sustainable fire going
2. Set up our shelter (we brought a pre-made one, coupled with a tarp, so didn't need to spend much time on the shelter)
3. Once the fire was sustainable, we boiled water as we foraged for enough wood to last through the night

It worked really well. We stayed warm and dry all night but, to thseng's point, I was up all night maintaining the fire and watching for any embers that popped into the shelter.

Naturally, it all depends on the situation. Certainly it’s possible, with enough experience, to get a decent night’s rest next to a fire. I’m not anti-fire, heck, I’ve often been called the Fire King (Blast will dispute that).

But here’s my point. Probably millions of people have gone camping and slept in a sleeping bag inside a tent without ever building a fire. If you are dry, have protection from precipitation and wind and have proper insulation, there is no probably no need for an extra heat source to get through the night. But as soon as someone is “surviving”, the laws of physics somehow manage to change.

I guess it’s not surprising. In Deep Survival, one of the examples was a backpacker who took a wrong turn, got separated from his partner and got lost. He was on day one of a multi-day trip with a backpack full of food, a tent and a sleeping bag. But after he realized he was lost he went thrashing around, long after dark, and eventually passed out in the snow. He continued to thrash for another day or two before he finally make himself a meal, set up his tent and went to sleep in his sleeping bag.

In the “Break Down” and “Altoids” videos, both groups started out in a dry environment, practically knee-deep in dry leaves, yet they all felt the need to keep a fire going all night. I think it’s just an “imprint” that people pick up from books, videos and experts.

I’ll bet that more than one person carries steel wool and batteries in their survival kit because they read in a survival manual that that’s one way to start a fire.

Fleece fibers repels water. Wring it, give it a beating, flap it around - and it's almost completely dry.

Wool attracts water, but up to a point the water will be sucked into the fibers and stay there. The result: Semi-wet wool retains a large percentage of it's insulation value. Soaking wet wool is not really pleasant. (I've read a vivid description of someone's boy scout memories about standing in the rain with a itchy, heavy, soaking wet wool sweater that stretched all the way to his knees... ) Wring it, give it a good beating and flap it around - it still contains loads of water, but will keep you warm (but somewhat less warm than the dry equivalent).

The water that is contained within the hollow wool fibers will dry out very slowly, which means that heat loss due to evaporation is minimal.

In one video, Dave askes them why they are leaving the blanket outside as the snow comes down. One of them replied that it was ok to let it get get, because its wool... Obviously he "knows" that "wool still keeps you warm after it's wet" Rather literal minded. I'll take the dry wool blanket over the wet one.

[quote=th

But here’s my point. Probably millions of people have gone camping and slept in a sleeping bag inside a tent without ever building a fire. If you are dry, have protection from precipitation and wind and have proper insulation, there is no probably no need for an extra heat source to get through the night.
[/quote]

I quite agree that many have spent comfortable nights without a fire given a proper sleeping bag. And it is true that if you are dry, are protected from the weather and are adequately insulated, you do not need a fire. It is the absence of one of those three conditions that can rather quickly place you in a survival situation and require a fire; at least that is when I start getting serious about building one.

There is probably one other condition that should be stipulated - that you are eating adequately and are producing enough internal heat. If you are not producing heat, you will need a lot of insulation and/or an external heat source.

I sincerely hope no one is lugging around a battery and steel wool as a serious mean of starting a fire. It is a neat parlor trick and not otherwise very practical - at least there are numerous more effective techniques, like a Bic.

Lol poor hiker. It doe's grow tiring, that debate. You forgot to mention to look for snakes and crawlies in those rock shelters. And I would think they would be hard to heat if in winter. As for those individuals in the videos I kept waiting for Darwins theory to prove itself. LOL

But fleece is not windproof Pete. Don't get me wrong, I love fleece, own lots of it, but wind is a killer.

All I can say is, in my real world experiences wet fleece is better than exposed skin even when exposed to wind in keeping you warm. Fleece although not usually windproof (there are some that are), does provide some protection from the wind. As others have stated, you can wring out or let the fleece drain, add a plastic bag or even one of those cheap survival blankets to block the wind and you have an effective system, not perfect but better than exposed skin.

Pete

Very true Pete.

It only takes one dunking or one cold windy night to realize that the added $ for lined or windstopper fleece is well worth the investment.

I noticed something in the first video between 7:00 and 8:30

It is worth opening a new thread titled ( in the heat of the moment) , you kind of forget a few things when you are in a tense situation. I do sometimes have stuff in my pockets and bag, but due to stress in a situation, I try to look for substitutes because I forgot I had the one thing I needed at that momemnt.

Notice how that tall guy ( don't know his name ) talks about lack of enough paracord to build better shelter while camera zooms nearer to his right hand , and there is a paracord bracelet !

A few seconds later, Keven ( the guy from Florida) takes his water bottle and submerges it in the creek because it is "too hot". The whole situation is about getting enough heat to warm yourself and dry your clothes, and he wants to get rid of some "extra" heat. Well, how about wrapping his socks around the bottle so that the "excess" heat goes into drying the socks ??