Q: What is the difference ?

First, I was shopping and saw a nice little cleaver. I started thinking why do I have to search for a "woodsman" tool like a machete or hatchet. Won't the cleaver do a smiliar job ? I mean a cleaver should be strong enough to break bones, it should do OK with wood.

So, what is the difference between a cleaver and a hatchet ?

Second. In most my FAKs I have both alcohol swaps and iodine swaps.
What is the difference ? When do we use this one or that one ??
I am thinking to standrdize everything with alcohol swaps because they have another function of starting fire (can be ignited with a spark).

Thanks

I can't answer either of your questions, but here are some thoughts.

Maybe a meat cleaver can do a hatchet's job, but I wouldn't want to cook with a hatchet.

Alcohol swabs can also be used to clean electronics and sanitize contact areas. I don't know how they compare to iodine in terms of germ-killing power or longevity.

In absolute terms: Not much. One would point out that a cleaver should be considered a machete in terms of it's use.

Depending on the cleaver, it might work well or it might not. Kitchen knives meant to cut are often much harder than axes and things designed to chop. It might work okay or it might chip or even break when it hits a knot.

Carry both. Alcohol can severely irritate open wounds. And I believe Iodine is a more effective antiseptic than the 70% alcohol wipes in your FAK.

"The more widely known antiseptics - alcohol, tincture of iodine, or the mercurial preparations - injure the tissues and should not be placed directly in an open wound." - Medicine for Mountaineering, 3rd edition., p. 96. Thorough irrigation and rinsing is recommended for open wounds. If you are giving injections, either one can be used to prep the site.

I usually carry a tiny bottle of hand sanitizer, which I can use directly as fuel in an alcohol stove or as a fire starter, in addition to its stated use.

There is quite a range of tools the fall into the "cleaver' category. I have pictured one here for reference.

I regard a cleaver as a large chefs knife...maybe marginally capable but not necessarily meant to chop through big bones; a bone saw is used for that. A traditional cleaver is meant to chop meat or hard vegetables (like winter squash) against a cutting board, and separate bones at the joints. An ulu would also be used in a similar fashion, but without the offset handle that a cleaver has. There are specialty cleavers made to split deer pelvis, and facilitate skinning and deboning big game animals. These tend to have a more rounded profile.

The cleaver shown here by Ontario Knife Co is a foot long, with 5" hardwood handle, and 7" high-carbon blade. It weighs about 10 ounces, and is a 'steal' at $20.

Compared to a hatchet or a machete, there is much less weight forward. You could lop small branches, but heavier cutting is much easier with a machete or hatchet because of their greater length and forward weight. I also believe that with the lighter weight, slim handle, and wider blade profile, the twisting force of a glancing blow would be more difficult to control. Another concern I have, although I have no proof of this, is that under the stress of chopping in very cold weather, the thinner and wider blade would be more likely to chip and crack.

I am no longer a fan of hatchets, as I have found that they can be very dangerous under cold, wet, and tired conditions (just when you need them the most in a northwoods survival situation). I now prefer a saw and a short machete. I'm sure some will disagree, as everyone uses their tools differently.

I have used several machetes, and can recommend the Ontario CT-1 Camp and Trail Cutlass as a economical (around $25) camp and field cutting and chopping tool, and save the cleaver for your gourmet cookset.

Brent Blue, M.D. has put it better than what I can:

"General wound care should start with cleaning with soap and lots of water. Painting with provoiodine completes the cleaning. If soap and water are not readily available, irrigating with the provoiodine is best alternative. For a dressing, I am personally fond of using gauze lightly wetted with provoiodine directly on the wound, with a layer of dry gauze on top -- a so-called provoiodine wet-to-dry dressing. A few studies have shown provoiodine to be irritating and destructive to live cells, but my personal experience is that the wet-to-dry dressing works extremely well for sterilizing wounds and preventing infections."

Jeanette Isabelle

Hikermor got it, although his answer might not have seemed totally clear.

Alcohol swabs are cheap, as you say, but generally should not be used on wounds. Use them to sterilize intact skin, like before an injection, or to sterilize objects, e.g. a needle to take out a splinter. And, like you said, they can be used as a firestarter.

For wounds, the povidone-iodine swabs are a better antiseptic to use than alcohol. Note that povidone-iodine swabs also can have a dual use as a water purifier, although I've never known anyone to actually rely on the swab trick with suspect water.

However, there is a lot of controversy even in the 21st century on the utility of antiseptics in wound care. There's research on either side that demonstrate that antiseptics hurt or help wound healing so people have many opinions on the matter.

The first and best thing to do for a wound is wash it out as thoroughly as you can, even with plain water if that is all you have available. The swabs are not a substitute for cleaning the wound.

I gave up on povidone and alcohol swabs in the kit cuz they were dried out due to the packaging fragility when I needed them. Wound irrigation with clean water is effective if large quantities are used: er docs typically want a liter or two on a small wound, orthopedists can fill a garbage pail in irrigating an open fracture. Instruments can be sterilized with direct heat or boiling water. Povidone wet-to-dry dressings are effective, but occasionally IME have caused local sensitivity reactions. Regarding cleavers: cleavers are designed to provide a little more mechanical advantage than a knife by offering a longer lever and a bit more mass. A splitting maul provides a much longer lever and much greater mass. Everything in between is a compromise. An earlier thread suggested that one can do just about all that is really needed with a pair of emt shears, which seems in my experience to be true: eliminate the knives, machetes, ahtchets and mauls, and maybe the povidone swabs won't be needed.

Tough to imagine Jim Bowie triumphing on the sand bar with a pair of scissors, tho...

Not really the same thing, one's for food the other for wood. I have a very heavy duty cleaver by F. dick, and it doesn't come close in chopping potential to a hatchet, and you can forget about splitting.

I have often thought that large butchers knives would make for a good bush knife.They often appear to have little difference, other than a typical butcher knife can be purchased for $1 at flea markets and the sellers want $20 for the bush knife.

To provide contrast, a meat cleaver is exactly that - a MEAT cleaver. In the butcher shop it is a cutting tool, not a chopping tool. Can it be used that way, of course, but it is not made for it.

Even among chopping tools, the sharpening is designed for a particular purpose. My conifer limbing axe is set up differently from an axe for cutting oak. A machete is designed for thin flexable materials. The design of the cleaver head and the sharpening are not well designed for chopping of wood. Easy to bend or break an edge.

Iodine is for application to a wound (depending on which protocol you subscribe to), alcohol is not. Alcohol is for cleaning and sterilizing a tool or intact skin. Iodine is not as good for this.

Respectfully,

Jerry

Butchers usually use a knife for processing meat, then use a larger knife , or a cleaver, to chop bones. That is what made me think : if a cleaver can chop bones , why not wood ?

A saw is lighter off course, but it is a single-use tool. A hatchet, or anything heavy like a cleaver in this case, may be used for more scenarios. But I agree with most here that a cleaver's head weight is spread thin, and does not have the versatility of a hatchet. For example, you can use the other side of a hatchet head as a hammer. A cleaver is too thin for such a job. And it can't be used as a micro-shovel because it is not balanced that way, plus it is mostly associated with food, so if you use it to dig a toilet hole, then you have to toss it away or toss the food away!

About the swabs , seems I have to keep both, just in case.

I'm no expert here either.

I've talked to various nurses who do wound care. They tell me that iodine (and swabs) is much too aggressive for use on human tissue. It can damage healthy tissue - which is not what you want to do with a wound. Alcohol is fine for cleaning skin, or cleaning skin surface around a wound (to remove outer contamination). You can do the old Clint Eastwood thing, and clean your "knife wounds" with whiskey if you want. It does kill bacteria. But it hurts a lot and is also aggressive on wounds. Remember to smoke a cigar if you want to add authenticity to the image.

By the way ...

Honey is good for minor scrapes. Works well. Use raw honey - esp. honey from bees in the mountains.

And open wounds (with flesh missing) can be packed with granulated sugar. Just straight sugar that you buy from the supermarket. Pour it right into the wound, then cover the surface with a povidone dressing (which keeps out unfriendly bacteria - but does not attack organisms inside the wound). The dry sugar absorbs water and creates an anaerobic condition that stops bacterial growth. Sugar dressings should be replaced every 4-6 hours after they become goopy (like syrup). That happens because body fluids soak into the wound site. Wash out the old sugar and replace with fresh dry sugar.
Sugar should not be used immediately on a bleeding wound because it can inhibit clotting.
The sugar treatment is one possible outdoors treatment, if no medical aid is close by and a wound needs to be stabilized against infection.

Pete2

There are many grades of cleaver. One one end there's my Shun Chinese cleaver which has a rock hard paper thin edge hat will chip on semi frozen meat, and the other end the F dick I mentioned earlier with edge thicker than my hatchet. I think there are more extreme examples but I've never seen any in person.