Tip up carry? I just don't get it

I've seen sheath knives on pack straps -- handle down/ tip up ( usually on the lift side). I've tried, but I can't see any reason why tip up is better than tip down.
Please advise.

Teacher..Ranger wana-be's..

Some of the GI Joe action figures carry knives this way. I'm sure that's a big part of it.

Depends on what you are doing.

On a pack - no. Good way to loose your knife.
On an LBV or a Life preserver it's a different story. You use tip up when you have to engage that tool one handed. Under those circumstances Tip Down is easier to engage with either hand.

I'm sure image comes into it too, but I think part of it is simply the desire to have your fixed blade accessible while wearing a large pack. The inverted carry may be the only way people have seen this achieved and therefore assume it is the best way to accomplish what they are trying to do.

99% of The things you see other people Doing is "Fad". The Survival Thing and Tacticool Thing is in major hype lately. They See People On youtube doing something for out of this world reasons and decide if they do it while doing normal things like hiking/camping, They will be noticed on the trail and identified as something they most likely are not such as "Prepared or Hardcore".

I Dont honestly even see a reason for normal everyday Hiking/camping to have it on your pack straps. I would feel it be more cumbersome then useful. Should I just carry a 12g Shotgun at the ready all the time because SMHTF While Im hiking too? I Personally thing its only smart to do when you Have the immediate possibility of need to cut something off you or cut yourself free from something But not hiking/camping.

Tip up seems like a good idea if the knife is secure somehow. Although I don't do it, tip up on a shoulder strap could more easily be made faster to deploy.

I do see a need to access a knife quickly. As one of many examples, you're walking and some weed/twine gets wrapped around your legs, holding you. I personally would not want to spend 30 seconds brute forcing my way out or fumbling for my knife. I'd rather deploy my knife quickly and get out as soon as possible. There are many other examples in which I'd want quick access to my knife.

Tip up shoulder strap carry makes it faster to get to the knife with either hand. The disadvantages are it's easier to lose the knife and it better be a d**n good sheath or you're going to give yourself a tracheotomy the first time you trip.

In my opinion, the benefits of carrying a fixed-blade knife tip up are rarely worth the risk. It is always a good way to expedite loosing you knife.

In the movie The Green Berets some of the troops carried their knives like that, wrapped in 90 mph tape. I also think in Platoon some of the troops did the same. Tom Berenger carried his push knife like that iirc.

Looks cool. Until you lose your knife. Until the tip up snags every freaking "wait a minute" vine in the jungle. Until you fall on that side and your knife about stabs you in the eye.

Then you put the knife on your belt where it belongs.

Unless you want to be ultra special cool macho and carry a sword on your back... but those people need professional help anyhow.

I do carry the knife on my PFD tip up.

Pete

Would I carry my knife that way? Not with the sheath I have right now, it's not built for that. That said, I do like having it accessible when backpacking so I lash it to my waist belt, point down.

I think the key is knowing your gear; there are sheaths out there that can be used inverted both safely and securely. With the proper gear, I think carrying your knife that way is a valid choice; you likely don't run the risk of loosing it or stabbing yourself any more than with any other carry method.

It's when you try to do things your gear isn't designed for that you start running into problems.

I confess.... I do carry my LMF II tip up on the left side of my rucksack strap. However this is because I have extensively tested the locking system on the sheath and even without having the handle retaining straps fastened the thing won't fall out. Also when I am in the bush i hesitate to put anything on my belt larger than a Leatherman case.

Adventureboy

Standard Disclaimer- No Affiliation with Gerber Knives and Tools, I just like my product.

@CANOEDOGS- Agreed, i copied my mentor, he was a Ranger during the first and second gulf wars.

Running a fixed blade inverted over your shoulder was most notably a military thing. With all the stuff they carried (pack, multiple belts, ect) there wasn't too many places left one could keep a fixed blade/bayonet. Especially if you wanted it to be easily and quickly accessible with both hands and tight to your body.

Nowadays, you also see a lot of neck knives specifically designed for inverted neck carry.

As many have stated, the biggest downside to this form of carry is loss of knife and/or potential injury. A sheath specifically designed for inverted carry can help to mitigate this.

With that in mind, it's not a carry method I would recommend for everybody. Nor would it be the way I would want to carry my only knife in a survival situation.

As others have stated, tip up carry on my PFD, typically worn when kayaking. In that mode, it is accessible to either hand. Being right handed, I prefer to mount it on the left side. I don't know if it looks cool or not, but it is there when I need it.

I did carry my knife tip up, electrical taped to my LBE when I was in. When you had a 60+ pound ruck sack on top of a LBE that had a buttpack, poncho, two canteens, full ammo cases, a compass and whatever else, including a M16 in front of you, it was damn hard to reach a fixed blade on your web belt digging into all those straps and whatsits. I switched off that style when I got an Sypderco Endura with serrated blade. It was super easy to clip to gear and be secure. Of course Leatherman wasn't really that big a name then, Gerber just came out with there multiplier, SA was still popular but bulky. Most grunts only kept a multi tool on their belt in garrison. But out in the field it was in a pocket and not easy to reach with full kit. MOLLE kind makes that easier now.

Sort of the same issue with low riding thigh holsters. You see this in a lot of movies and psuedo-crime/LEO shows on tv. That looks cool but its reality with operators or real LEO. It flops around way to much. A low ride might be offset off the belt a bit but not dropped low thigh. If on the belt its more than likely flush. I do know a lot of tactical teams now, thanks to MOLLE gear and better safeties, that put the sidearm on their weak side chest almost horizontal, so grabbing it is like putting your hand over your heart. It's high up on the chest when in CQB, or low crawling or laying behind cover.

+1. Regardless of the merits of carrying large fixed blades this way, it's virtually incomprehensible that you could lose an IZULA/I2 this way. It locks in very tightly and requires quite a tug to free it. And the sheath is sturdy enough that I think it eliminates the risk of being impaled.

But with the exception of a few neckers meant to be carried in this manner, carrying tip up is probably tempting fate. I wouldn't trust the retention of most sheaths on sub-$100 knives.

IMHO tip up is easier with either hand on a LBV or lifejacket, or pack strap....as long as the knife is mounted higher than mid-point on your chest. If you mount your knife below your sternum, tip down is easier with either hand.

A sheath properly made for tip up carry shouldn't cost you a knife if it is used properly. Many (sometimes called "jump certified" or "para-certified") have secondary fasteners, too.

Hey, that reminds me! Have people here had experience loosing any neck knives? I was planning on getting a neck knife, but not if they're easily lost. (I have noted ESSE is reliable.)

I've got a Buck/Hartsook Ultralight that I've used as a neck knife from time to time. Between the good retention system and being such a small/lightweight knife it works well as a neck knife.

Unfortunately, the diminutive size and lack of handle scales also make it uncomfortable to use for anything more than light tasks.

This is where kydex sheath comes in, you can reform it to whatever tightness you desire, I've tweaked most of mine. Not something you can do with leather or injection molded sheath.

The only time I carry tip up is scuba diving with a short dive knife on my BCD strap

I prefer to keep my sheath knife on a side strap on the pack rather than the pack strap. Not only that, I have the lanyard looped in the strap as double insurance. It is pretty rare indeed that a person needs to have a sheath knife "on the ready" but if people feel comfortable with that then that's their business.

i hike in the los padres national forest. i typically do not see anyone else on the trails that i hike.

and there are cats out there.

when i was new to hiking i carried a fixed blade, in a kydex sheath, upside down, on my backpack's shoulder strap. the sheath had a snap button strap that secured the handle of the knife. it wasn't going anywhere unless needed.

i felt that if a cat ever pounced on me from behind grabbing my neck - as is their style - and although face down in the dirt, i just might be able to readily reach the knife and give the cat a real surprise.

the more i read about human / cat interactions, the number of people killed, and about the life of the cats, i came to realize that an encounter with mr. cougar would be a very rare event should it happen to me.

so i stopped carrying the knife that way.

it was just a choice i made.

but i have watched ranger shows on t.v.

dexter, too.

A small confession. I have hiked for decades in cat country, including one area in Arizona where the rancher I came to know quite well had never been able to raise a foal to adulthood because of cat predation. In that area I have seen cat tracks on top of mine while descending from a climb.

I also hike a fair amount of time in the Los Padres.

In all of that - cat encounters - zero. Cat sightings - zero. Cat sightings and encounters by friends and associates - zero.

Mountain lions are interesting complex critters, but they are an insignificant hazard to humans. Just look at the statistics. Small children are more at risk, but that is why they have parents.

I usually carry my knife in my pack or on my belt.

all of what you say aided in my decision-making process to not carry that knife - at all.

every ranger i have ever encountered has been asked the question - none have seen a live cat in the woods, not even the backcountry rangers.

i do have a sharp or two with me - in my pack.

i, too, have seen prints over my tracks. eerie.

I've seen Mountain Lions in Los Padres 3 times in the last 2 yrs!I saw one from a distance,about 1/8 mile in Malibu.I've seen & observed a Mountain Lion with 2 cubs in or near the Sespe Wilderness area for about 5 minutes!I see Coyotes & Packs of Dogs often as well as Many Mulies,& I've seen Black Bear in Soledad Cyn.,recently last summer! I think rangers are holding back from telling the general public,what they actually do see on a daily basis.Tip up or Tip down,Just make sure you have at least one with you,when you are hiking!

Big Cats always scared the crap out of me. Unlike most animals you almost never hear them or see them. More often than not, the only way you know they were there, is because you see their tracks on the way back. More than a few times I've seen their tracks following me. As you can imagine, it's a very eery feeling.

Years ago I briefly dated a girl that worked at a Zoo in Nebraska. Once she took me in to show me the animals. I was about eight feet away from a pair of cougars in a pen and I couldn't freakin' believe how big they are! Having seen housecats intimidate large dogs I can scarcely imagine what a cat that size could do, or what possible good a knife would do you. Obviously it would be a lot better than nothing, but I have to think your odds of successfully fighting a mountain line with a knife are pretty slim.

I have personally seen two mountain lions in northern Minnesota. The DNR finally admits that they are present here. I also see wolves, coyotes, and bears on occasion.

What you say is true about the big cats, but also coyotes, wolves, bears....any large predator. The problem is, that alone and stripped of our technology, we are an easy meal for any large predator.

With tip down on the belt, I'll take the slim chance over no chance at all.

Standard advice, in the event that you should be face to face with a big pussy cat, is to stand your ground, and make yourself look as large as possible (put your kids up on your shoulders,, raise your poncho up high, etc.).

If Mr. Cat is stalking you (very, very unlikely) you will probably never know what hit you. They stalk from on high, and sever the spinal cord at the neck with the first bite.

Again, attacks are very rare.

I found a site, Cougar Info, that lists confirmed cougar attacks and there have been people who've successfully defended themselves against a cougar with only a knife, for example:

61-year-old David Parker was attacked by a 100 pound (45 Kg) adult, male cougar at about 7:30 p.m. on his nightly stroll along a road near his home about two kilometres outside of Port Alice ... As the cat clawed and bit into his neck, face, and head, Parker managed to open his knife's three-inch blade, stab the cougar a few times, and eventually slit its throat, leaving the cat to bleed in the middle of the gravel road.

A Moscow, Idaho man, unwilling to be identified, reported he was attacked by a mountain lion at about 6:00 in the evening while camping southwest of Elk River, Idaho ... During the struggle, the victim grabbed a knife and stabbed the mountain lion in the side, causing it to run into the timber.

That said, there have been cases where knives have been used, but didn't seem to have as effective as hoped.

After reviewing these accounts, I'd wager a solid fixed blade would give you an above average chance of surviving a cougar attack. I've also seen recommendations for using bear spray as a defensive tool against cougars.

Actually, this same site has some good do's & don'ts for avoiding and/or surviving a cougar encounter and regarding weapons it says:

Use anything available as a weapon if the lion displays aggression but generally not if you must turn your back, crouch, kneel, or bend over to get one

• Carry mace or pepper spray where you can easily reach it
• Use fists, sticks, rocks, tools, a pocket knife, a bicycle, whatever you can hit with, throw, and/or use as a shield
• Target an eye with your thumbs, fingers, or a weapon

Fortunately, cougar attacks seem as rare, if not rarer, than bear attacks.

A local mom fought off a cougar (that snatched her 4 year old) with a water bottle.

A water scientist survived a cat attack with a pair of forceps to the eye.

An elderly couple in CA survived using a ball point pen.

etc. etc.

Cats don't like to be injured. If they don't sever your spine
right away, it seems you have a pretty good chance of driving them off.

A knife or pepper spray could work. Many around here carry handguns for lion, wolf and bear protection.

bowhunter twice stalked by mtn lion.

http://m.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2011/sep/29/bowhunter-seems-lure-unwanted-predators/

and grandma and the wolf
http://outdoorsmans.blogspot.com/2011/10/woman-attacked-by-wolf-and-wins.html

Heck, they had a mountain lion show up in the Chicago area a few years back.

I'm more than convinced that large cats are the finest predators on land. They are amazing.

Traveling in groups is probably the best defense, wearing a backpack should help a lot, ... and praying. As others have said, carrying a knife gives me peace of mind - whether justified or not. I just hope I'd have the presence of mind to grab it and fight back.

While that's true, how many of us are not going to have a knife on us when we head into the woods?

Given we have a knife anyway, it usually takes no more effort to carry one's knife in an easily accessible position (not necessarily tip up) than it does to lash it on the back of a pack or tuck it away in some compartment. This would seem to be the type of low cost / low effort risk mitigation strategy appropriate for a low probability / high consequence risk like a wildlife attack.

Between this and the type of possible risks ireckon mentioned earlier in the thread, it seems like a good idea to have quick access to a knife at all times.

I hear-tell the latest in tacti-cool knife carry is: tip-down on the centerline of your chest. In other words, curl up on the ground in a fetal position like you're getting the crud kicked out of you and put the knife handle near where your hands are.

Personally, I normally carry mine on my waist on my right side. At least one knife should be readily accessible, if only for convenience sake.

The comment about mountain lions severing their victim's spine - I was under the impression that most big cats killed their dinner by getting a tight grip on the throat and suffocating them. Am I incorrect? A 100 lb. mountain lion severing a spine on the first bite seems a long shot. FULL DISLOSURE: never seen a couga, except in a zoo.

My understanding is Cougars are ambush predators,so an attack is likely(if at all) from above & behind or just from behind,pushing one to the ground,& going straight for the back of the neck,of which is the spine & just so happens to be our most vulnerable area for a mortal wound.In theory,it would take one bite to drop a human,Cougars reflexes are 5x our own if not more!Statistics prove nothing in the Great Outdoors,Murphy makes darn sure of that!Personally,I choose to be Equipped to Survive,Afterall that's the whole point,Isn't it?

Actually the chances are that careful analysis of accident data will improve your odds of survival considerably. Prepare for the most likely events first, and spend less effort and resources on the least likely, some of which are wildly improbable. The better your comprehension of the hazard profile facing you, the more likely you will handle the situation competently.

I guess most predators prefer easy meals to ones that stab back! The knife would be nice to have if you could get to it. Obviously most of us would have one with us anyways.

That also depends on where you choose to do your hiking.Statistically if you hike on a well-beaten path,your chances of a wildlife encounter are practically nill,as opposed to making your own path,& again it's Murphy for the win!

actually, i opened the above link to the list of attacks.

chose a year set at random.

the ones i read - at random - were all on trails or at campsites.

i'm rethinking my knife carry - it seems fighting them off is an option, ranger wanna be or not.

what other people think of me is none of my business.

...Not to hijack my own threat but...

Wouldn't a tall backpack and hiking staff be better for the ( incredibly unlikely, really really close to non-exixtant) cougar/ big cat attack scenario?

Backpack - defense - as it covers the neckal regions

Hiking stick - offense --Because its already in your hand

One thing I've noticed is that a lot of people don't hike with actual hiking sticks/staves anymore. Instead they use lightweight collapsible hiking poles modeled after ski poles. While great for hiking stability, they don't make for very good weapons.

"he comment about mountain lions severing their victim's spine - I was under the impression that most big cats killed their dinner by getting a tight grip on the throat and suffocating them. Am I incorrect? A 100 lb. mountain lion severing a spine on the first bite seems a long shot. FULL DISLOSURE: never seen a couga, except in a zoo. "

The lion's teeth are spaced just perfectly to pass through a deer's neck bones and separate them.

I don't think its a matter of thinking there's a likelihood of going to battle with a lion as much as it's a recognition that something as simple as moving the carry location of your knife could improve your chances of survival on the off chance a lion encounter did occur.

It's recognizing and implementing a simple, no-cost, low effort risk mitigation measure for a low probability, but high impact risk. For me this is a good balance; I don't think the probability of such an encounter really warrants a specialized defence tool.

That said, the specific situation can change things; I had started planning a trip to one of our national parks earlier this year and the park had issued a warning that a mountain lion was frequenting high use areas and recommended all visitors carry bear spray due to the increased chance of an encounter.


I think a tall backpack would definitely help; I'd think it would protect you from most of the initial injuries that would come from the type of ambush from behind/above that seems common. As for the staff, I think it might be helpful in the situation where a lion was being more overt in its actions or where you had to try and break the attack of a lion on a friend or family member, but might not do much good if a lion was on you.

From what I've read so far, it appears that the situations where knives proved the most helpful where those where the lion was on the victim and they used the knife to stop the lion's attack themselves.


I love my simple, wooden hiking staff. I've been considering switching to a more modern solution primarily for the compactness and packability, but I just can't get over the benefits of a simple wooden staff ... but that's getting way off topic ... hijacking the hijack

I think the Doug Ritter mk-2 knife would be a Perfect choice,carried in a tip-up or down position,It would mitigate the fear of being Defenseless,Substantially indeed!Nighthiker is right on the mark,as is his Roosveldt proverb!Very Simple!

I agree with the hiking staff for defense, if that is your concern. Not only is it there in your hand, you have reach with it.

As for the knife carry, I say carry it however you feel you want or need to. Just good to have one with you. If it is on your pack and you have to ditch your pack, you just ditched your knife too. Hopefully, you have a pocket knife as back up.

hiking staff for defense!.i have,in hand.a 1909 UK Boy Scout book with a intro from Baden Powell himself that give detailed advice on using the hiking staff to ward off "tramps and drunken rough's" with a blow to the collar bone,among other things.

My, how the world has changed! That section would be an interesting read....

I think there's pro's and con's. Certainly if you've got on a solid waist-belt, it's tough to keep things on your pant belt. In those cases I try and put the knife on the pack belt, but then it's a problem if I put the pack down and step off the trail or something. Which, I suppose, is a problem when it's taped to your shoulder strap as well.

Now, "tip down" on your shoulder strap would be quite the hassle to get out.

Usually I have a clip knife in my front right pant pocket. Never had a problem with it there. A fixed blade typically in my pack until I drop it for the day ,then it comes out.

I've seen one cougar in SoCal. Just had gotten to a trail to walk my dog and saw it about 200 yards off. The walk was canceled.


Yes, I'm late to the thread

although i couldn't find the exact reference mentioned above - drunkards - here is baden-powell's 'scouting for boys' which is a very interesting read.

it is a pdf and can be searched for 'staff'.

go here: scouting for boys