Older XGK stove parts

Hiking Jim got me thinking about stoves, and then some opportunities came along -- now I have four (yes 4) new, old stoves to use alongside my XGK-EX and Pocket Rocket. Two lightly used Svea 123's (an older pre-R with the slotted safety valve and an early '70's R) an almost new condition Primus 111B and an unused (I would guess it was fired only once) late 70's XGK with the yellow and black pump and all the pre REI stuff except the cup.

Repair parts are easy to find for the 123's and the 111B since the basic units are still in production. Also there aren't many wear parts in a 123. The XGK is also still in production, but with a different design, new pump, etc.


The XGK works, but the pump could use a rebuild (the o rings from the EX work, but I need a new leather - and a spare) and the air tube is gone. The jets from the EX are different (GK and X for the new one, G and K for the old one). The surge damper is not present in the new one either.

Does anyone know of a place to get parts for the older XGK?

Thanks in advance.

Jerry,

And Thanks to HJ for putting me in touch with some old friends!!

(Have no suggestions, but am watching this thread with popcorn at the ready. )

I bought the original Model 9 MSR stove from Larry Penbarthy, they cost less than $20 when first introduced. Every year I would go to the Northwest to climb and hike and every year I would stop by MSR at SeaTac airport and take the stove in for a checkup. Every year I would get traded at no cost to the latest version. Those were the days!! Since REI took them over, things have changed. I took my pump in because it was allowing fuel into the pump and the person at the REI store took it apart and lost my ball which is a critical part of the valve. Dead pump! Thanks REI.
I heard somewhere that if you had an old yellow pump they were replacing them for free with a newer pump, but that's been awhile. I would write or call MSR tech support and see what they say. I do know some of the variations of the XGK and earlier models had some interchangability. There may be a whole pump assembly that would fit your stove or some parts kits available from MSR.
I still have 2 of the yellow pumps, one with the trashed valve and one in pristine (although probably not working) condition. Not sure I have the cup either although I did use the cup when I carried the stoves back in the day to keep the wire pot supports from poking things in my pack.
BTW, have you asked HikingJim for advice? He is the stove guru and known around the world for his excellent stove information.

What did REI take over? AFAIK REI (among others) markets MSR products, but Cascade Designs, Inc. owns them. Did REI take over that storefront?

widget,

I too bought my first XGK (one with the yellow pump almost identical to the one I have now) from Penberthy. He was a great man as well as a great stove designer. I think the main purpose of the cup was to protect the pack, not as a pot.

There is a lot of interchangability even with an old one like mine (I said Penberthy was a genius didn't I). Most of the o-rings replace (even though the bottle gasket on the pump was just that - a gasket). I don't know if the newer rubber pump cup will replace the old leather one, but I will try it if I can't find the leather. The jets from the older XGK interchange (not the EX though), but they don't allow the surge damper to stay. The newest jets also use the same jet for gas and kerosene (GK) where the older ones used to separate ones. I don't know if the GK will work, although I expect it will.

The things I would most like to find are a replacement leather or two for the pump, an air tube, as well as a spare check valve. For the stove I would like a spare surge damper, spare G type jets, and additional priming pads.

Thanks for the reminders.

Respectfully,

Jerry

If I remember correctly, originally REI bought MSR. I guess somehow they are separate again with Cascade Designs as owner. Not sure I understand all the changes but I do notice less MSR offerings at REI compared to a few years back.
It seems possible that perhaps even Cascade Designs is owned partly by REI. Just a speculation on that!

According to the Cascade Designs website, they are privately owned.

Today, we’re fortunate to remain a private, family-owned company that has grown to be one of the most respected outdoor equipment manufacturers in the world.

The things I would most like to find are a replacement leather or two for the pump, an air tube, as well as a spare check valve. For the stove I would like a spare surge damper, spare G type jets, and additional priming pads.

Jerry,

I just reread what you asked for and noted the priming pads. Those were a small square of asbestos and considering the hazards of asbestos, I doubt you'll find any. Unless someone has some very old spare parts kits laying around.

The problem with the MSR stoves is that they have been remodeled so many times, it is almost impossible to keep abreast of the changes and the parts associated. That's one reason I haven't messed with mine for many years. Even the Dragonfly I have has had a complete remodel since I bought it. I've pretty much become a lazy man and use a Snow Peak canister stove these days. Light, easy and reliable. I don't climb mountains any more and have not done any winter snow camping in a long time. That was where the MSR XGK was really the best, melted snow and ice in a hurry!
My old Model 9 originally had a white pump, for at least the first 2 pump changes from Larry. The yellow was probably about the 3rd gen. You are right Larry was a great man and a genious to boot. He had a very practical approach to climbing with safety as an important ingedient! Few people today recognize his contributions. He was responsible for the high strength ice axe shafts, the MSR dead man anchors with fixed angles and introduced the climbing world to lithium batteries for cold weather use, long before anyone had heard of a lithium battery.
I still have somewhere around here a bunch of the MSR newsletters which always had some great information in them. I even still have a first generation MSR Gore-Tex parka, now that is OLD!

MSR was originally bought by REI. Not sure when they went to Cascade Designs. That would surely explaiin why MSR products are more sparse now at REI!
Maybe the MSR/Cascade Designs merge is a good thing. I never got the impression that REI put enough into the MSR product, mainly the stoves. Perhaps as a small company the stoves will get the attention they deserve. I know as a former mountaineer the stove could be a matter of life or death actually.

widget,

I too use a canister stove (pocket rocket) for warm weather and day hikes. The original XGK and the EX I replaced it with were for winter and for places where white gas was not common or easy to carry (I spent many years working in Alaska and Canada where Avgas or jet fuel was the only fuel I could count on).

My primary use of the two will still be that kind of situation.

The best,

Jerry

REI sold the MSR product line to Cascade Designs in 2001 so I would think that most of the current gen MSR stoves are from Cascade R&D? Perhaps Hiking Jim can clarify.

Oh, sure, blame it all on me why don't ya?

Woo hoo! Old stoves. I took my old Svea 123 out this weekend on a camping trip. I cooked omlettes, pancakes, etc. on it. Very good cooking stove.

A word of caution on a 111B. If the pump rod on the 111B ever rises on its own, shut her down quick! If the pump rod rises on its own, then pressure is getting past the check valve in the pump, and you could soon have a flaming spout of death. The 111 was originally designed for kerosene. Using benzene (gasoline), which is what the "B" in the 111B stands for, was an after thought to make it more salable in the US where white gasoline is the standard. Just be careful with a 111B. I personally won't use them unless the pump has been serviced recently.


The new synthetic rubber pump cup from generation five (the current generation, "duraseal" pump) MSR pumps should work just fine on your old black and yellow pump. However, I prefer leather pump cups. Leather needs maintenance, sure, but they don't bind in hot weather (a consideration for desert use) and as long as they aren't torn can be reshaped and re-used. If a synthetic one gets caught and mal-formed, you're out of luck. There are leather ones available in older repair kits or from sellers on eBay. I haven't tried any of the ones on eBay.

The old yellow and black pumps are probably the best pump that MSR ever made. Generally, every successive generation of MSR pump has been worse than the preceding generation if you can believe it. The takeover in 1980 (IIRC) by REI did not do the outdoors community any favors. Thank God REI sold the company to Cascade Designs ca. 2001. It's never returned to the glory years of Penberthy, but it's a little better now.

The latest generation of MSR pump, the duraseal, is probably their best since the generation two yellow and black pump.

The yellow and black pump does have two serious drawbacks and one less serious drawback:
Serious:
1. If you over tighten the valve, you can crack the plastic housing. Crack the housing, and your pump is irreparable.
2. The check valve is spring loaded into the base of the pump. If you pull out the air supply tube, sproing! little parts go everywhere. Lose any of those parts, particularly the little teflon disk, and your pump is irreparable.
Less serious:
3. The air supply tube almost always is broken off at the base of the pump. MSR really blew it when the selected the material for the air supply tube. It just didn't hold up. The good news is that it doesn't really matter. Your pump, based on my experience, will work just fine without the tube.

Boy. Now, there's the toughie. You can shop on eBay and the like for old XGK parts kits, but sometimes you have to buy a whole stove for parts. It's kind of a pain, but that's about the best I can do for you. MSR just doesn't stock parts from 30 odd years ago.

HJ

DANG! Those were the days all right. I wish I could get my hands on a real Model 9, the ones with the crimped burner bell and a generation one white pump. Now those are collectors items (to a guy like me anyway).

They swapped out the generation one white pumps with the square knobs to the generation two yellow and black pumps with the round knobs pretty early on. The yellow and black pump went through many iterations including some with pins that held things together and aluminum fuel pick up tubes. Very interesting how many changes there were year-to-year in the early years of MSR. Unfortunately, no one kept records and it's probably impossible to catalog all the variants. I for one have neither the time nor the money.

REI has thankfully been out of the picture for about a decade now.

As far as I know that old offer is still in effect, BUT I wouldn't do it if I were you. The old black and yellow pump, particularly the later variants with the plastic fuel pick up and without the brass pins, is probably the best pump MSR ever made. I'd try to repair it if at all possible. As long as you haven't cracked the plastic of the pump or lost any of the parts in the check valve, your pump can be made to work again. DO NOT under any circumstances pull out the air supply tube (typically broken off at the base of the pump). That air supply tube is all that holds the spring loaded check valve in place. Lose those check valve parts, and your pump is history.

If you ever do lose your mind and trade in a black and yellow pump for one of the modern pumps, it will work. All MSR pumps of all generations are interchangeable except the Dragonfly pump. The Dragonfly pump will work only with a Dragonfly stove.

Ha! But thank you.

HJ

Jerry,

The newest MSR XGK EX still uses separate jets to my knowledge, one for kerosene class fuels and one for gasoline class fuels. I don't believe they've gone to a single jet. I believe the Optimus Nova did go to a single jet.

Modern priming pads for the XGK EX should I believe work in an old GK or XGK stove. I haven't tried it, but a priming pad is a priming pad, even if the materials they used back then were different.

The jets are very different. I've never tried to see if the thread is the same, but the size sure is different. On the oldest of the XGK line, I believe the diameter of the jets was much larger (if my memory serves me well). I don't think they're interchangeable although I could be wrong on that point.

As for finding a spare check valve, good luck. Short of buying another pump and cannibalizing it, I don't think you'll find such a thing.

HJ

Ya know Jim, i bet that if Larry Pehbarthy was alive and still running MSR, every stove user would have the latest, improved model at no cost!
As always Jim, your stove knowledge is the best. I have a bunch of stoves but the maintenance is a bit behind as well as my knowledge of the repairs and pecularities. You are the man!

Jim,

Thanks for the reply.

From the EX instruction sheet:

The XGK EX™ stove burns a variety of fuels by using two different Jets.
1. The GK Jet is used for white gas, kerosene, unleaded auto gas, and aviation gas.
This Jet is preinstalled in your stove.
2. The X Jet is for jet fuel, and diesel. This Jet is included in the parts kit with your stove.


I have a "mixed" repair kit that has jets for the EX and the Shaker Jet. Both sets of them are marked GK and X. It looks like the newer jets are all made that way. The Shaker Jet jets are larger and look like they might fit, although I have not tried them. I have not tried to remove the surge damper since it is sometimes broken on removal when they are stuck in the body. Mine is stuck - probably from 30 years of sitting.

Thanks for your thoughts on the yellow pump. I was kind of planning on keeping it, even if I have to use my spare duraseal for field work (I don't think I will though, the yellow it trouping along like they always did). As you pointed out, the air tube is broken off. It is the pinned in type.

The 123's are great stoves, I probably will go back to the 123 for day hiking and trips where I want to cook, not just boil water.

The 111b was the favorite stove of many of my cold weather friends and almost everyone I knew in canoe country. Mine works fine, although I do intend to rebuild the pump as soon a I break down and buy a wrench. It is a wondereful stove where weight is not critical, it is HOT and it simmers well. Although I have heard of the pump problem, none of my user friends (8 or 10 of them in the last 40 years) has ever had the problem. Most of them had a wrench and rebuilt the pump every few years though.

Thanks again for reintroducing me to some old friends, I can't wait until camping season comes around again (this summer I am not going to make it north).

Respectfully,

Jerry

Hi, Jerry,

Well if that isn't the oddest thing I've ever heard. I don't have my XGK to hand or I'd check it myself. I'm going to have to head over to the storage unit and have a look.

The "G" in the XGK name has always stood for gasoline (white, unleaded, aviation, etc.) and the "K" has always stood for kerosene (K-1, diesel, jet fuel, JP-8, etc.). That's just plain weird that they're saying to use the same jet for white gasoline and kerosene. Just plain weird. Maybe they figure good quality K-1 grade kerosene is closer in its characteristics to white gasoline than nasty, stinky diesel?

I'd still be tempted to run kerosene using the jet for diesel, but that's me.

In general, here's what's going on: the heavier the fuel, the smaller the jet size. Gas jets tend to be the largest, then gasoline, then kerosene. If you look at something like a Primus Omnifuel, which burns pretty much anything, the jet sizes are as follows:
gas 0.45 mm
gasoline 0.37 mm
kerosene 0.28 mm

Now, the difference between a gasoline and a kerosene jet in this example is 0.09 mm which might seem so small as to not matter, but stove manufacturers spend a lot of time getting the air-fuel mix right, and these tolerances, albeit small, do matter.

So I'm DANGED surprised to here them lumping kerosene in with gasoline class fuels. That's just plain weird. I've got to look into this!

With MSR stoves in general, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! Certain things like easily accessible "O" rings really should be inspected and replaced if needed, but for things inside the valve, the burner, or the pump, in all seriousness I don't recommend that they be serviced until needed. I've seen too many broken valves, too many broken pump tabs, etc. on MSR stoves. If the stove is working, I wouldn't mess with the surge damper.

All of the yellow pumps that I have seen are pinned at the bottom where the air supply tube exits the body of the pump. The pins I was referring to in my earlier post hold the pump collar and pump rod to the body of the pump. Later versions of the yellow pump have tabs and slots built into the pump collar and the body of the pump, respectively.

If it were me, and I were going into an area where I'd be in a real fix if my stove weren't working, I'd bring both pumps. The pump is definitely the Achilles heel of MSR liquid fueled stoves. A spare pump, particularly if you're traveling by vehicle or something where weight isn't quite as critical, is peace of mind, as is an expedition service kit. I don't always travel with two pumps and a full service kit, particularly for backpacking, but if all the weight isn't on your back, why not carry the "insurance?"

I had my Svea 123 out this past weekend. It's the version from before Optimus bought the rights to the Svea name from Sievert in 1969 and redesigned the stove, creating the Svea 123R. It's a great cooking stove. It's never given me a lick of trouble, come rain or shine. And, despite its being brass, is in the same weight class as a MSR Whisperlite. If memory serves me correctly, a Svea 123 is actually lighter than an XGK. It's certainly quite compact. Did I mention I really like the Svea 123?

The 111 is a great stove. I prefer the 111 without the "B", the original 111, which was designed to run on kerosene. The "B" in 111B stands for benzin which is the word for gasoline, thus a 111B is a 111 modified to run on gasoline, a modification made for the American market. The only problem with the 111B is that there is a rubber "pip" in the non-return valve inside the pump. If that pip hardens (and it will with age), then gasoline can start leaking around the valve inside the pump. If you ever see the pump rod rising of its own accord, SHUT THE STOVE DOWN QUICKLY. If gasoline escapes around the valve, it can ignite, and you will have a flamethrower on your hands. It hasn't happened to me personally, but I do know people to whom it has happened. Don't run an old 111B without servicing it. That being said, the 111 series, whether 111, 111B, 111C, or the much sought after 111T, is an excellent set of very reliable stoves. Before the MSR revolution of the early 1970's, mountaineers used to carry 111's to high altitude. Can you imagine lugging something as big and as heavy as a 111 up the side of a mountain. It's that good. There were mountaineers who were willing to lug the beast up the face of a peak simply because the 111 was such a good stove.

HJ

On the Brunton AF it use same jet for all three type of fuel, albeit changing the air supply size for gas/liquid fuel. Still for gas/kerosene it's the same air/fuel ratio.

I've tried both gasoline and K1 kerosene in it, both works fine, but kerosene has some yellow tip to the flame instead of all blue. So it works, just not ideal.

Have you tried kerosene with the "X" jet? I'd be curious how it burns. It should burn blue. The yellow tips tell me that it's not burning efficiently.

HJ

Jim,

Thanks for your thoughts as always.



I have only run kerosene once, on Spitzbergen, in my old XGK. I almost always use AvGas or Jet Fuel, taken from the aircraft that brought me into an area, if I don't have white gas. The biggest advantage is that I can put it back in their tanks when I leave and not have to worry about how to dispose of it in a hotel or airport when I return home (usually by air).

I have regularly carried an enhanced service kit and a spare pump when I was not backpacking. Of course when I was backpacking, I mostly carried my 123! Even in mountaineering, the pump is critical and I carried a spare.

Not only can I imagine packing a 111, I have done it several times. That is how I ended up with an XGK, I loved the 111 for cooking and melting snow, but not for carrying. In the 60's I borrowed several stoves for use in the mountains. I had a 111b on my purchase list when I saw an XGK. It was great for the mountains, super for fly in camps, and OK for canoeing (no simmer and I do LOVE my pancakes and banock when canoeing). The 123 was for day trips and backpacking where fuel was easy to get (at home). Sometimes I took both canoeing if the portage length was not too great and I expected to be able to get white gas.

Thanks again,

Jerry

Jerry,

How did your XGK run on AvGas (which I believe contains lead)? I assume it ran reasonably well, but did you have to clean the jet a lot?

Sounds like the XGK was perfect for what you were doing -- flying in -- where you could pull straight from the tanks. I wouldn't want to try that on a 111 and certainly not on a 111B.

The XGK, particularly older models (pre shaker jet, but especially those with the surge damper) could actually be made to almost simmer. You had to really reduce the pressure in the tank and then fiddle with it a lot. I've been able to do it, although it's not like using a stove designed to simmer where it's a snap.

I still love my 123 for short trips. I've heard complaints about the 123 not simmering well. Not sure what those complaints are about although perhaps they're from 123R owners. I don't have a lot of experience with the R model, but I have heard complaints about it. I've even heard of guys taking the cleaning needle out of the R version and saying that it actually worked better without the needle.

XGK, 111, or 123, I hope you get out soon,

HJ

[/quote]Jerry,

How did your XGK run on AvGas (which I believe contains lead)? I assume it ran reasonably well, but did you have to clean the jet a lot?

Sounds like the XGK was perfect for what you were doing -- flying in -- where you could pull straight from the tanks. I wouldn't want to try that on a 111 and certainly not on a 111B.

The XGK, particularly older models (pre shaker jet, but especially those with the surge damper) could actually be made to almost simmer. You had to really reduce the pressure in the tank and then fiddle with it a lot. I've been able to do it, although it's not like using a stove designed to simmer where it's a snap.
[/quote]

Jim,

The XGK ran very well on AvGas, but certainly needed cleaning more frequently. The old 80 Octane required a basic cleaning every couple of days (probably did not need it that often, but I did it regularly to avoid problems). The 100 Octane Low Lead that basically replaced the 80 was much cleaner, usually I got by a week without problems. The lead means that you HAVE to use it outside and avoid the fumes, but I don't like using any stove (especially a gasoline one) inside a tent anyway. It was (and still is) perfect for what I do. The 111 of any sort would not even be in the running! I did use my 123 a few times (before I got my XGK) but finding fuel where I arrived by commercial air was often a pain and disposing of the extra usually was a gift to the pilot or someone locally. It often required giving them the bottle too.

Simmering on my old XGK was possible, just not easy. I expect the new/old one will be similar. I don't know about the EX yet, I have tried it only a couple of times. I also got a scorch plate from the Outback Oven and it helps a lot. It will never be my favorite stove for cooking pancakes and eggs.

Respectfully,

Jerry

Thanks for sharing your experience with AvGas. Sounds about like what I would expect.



Yeah, the XGK isn't exactly the gourmet cook's stove, is it? It's a great rough and ready stove for trips into rough areas, but to me it's hardly a basecamp stove for fixing "real" food. I think I'd grab a Dragonfly for something like that.

Nice thing about the XGK though is that it "takes a licking and keeps on ticking" as they say.

The XGK EX has a reputation for not being able to simmer as well as older versions of the XGK, particularly pre-shaker jet version of the older XGK's. Try it some time and let us know how it goes. That simmer plate that you have from your outback oven will definitely help.

HJ