Selecting a backpacking tent?

I am in the market for a tent and think I've pretty much nailed down what I'm looking for but would love some other opinions.

I am looking for a 2 man backpacking tent; it will mostly be used either solo or with one of my kids but I forsee the ocassional trip with another adult. I am looking at 3 season tents, but plan on pushing the boundries a bit (e.g., late/early winter) and it must be able to withstand a good storm. I will mostly be using this in the Alberta Rockies, maybe a bit on the BC side (where constant rain seems to be my fate :)).

So, for critera in selecting a tent, I've come up with:

• 2 entrances
• 2 vestibules sufficient for a good sized (i.e., 70-80 litre) pack
• Vestibules which allow opening/entry without getting the inner tent wet
• At least a partial-fabric inner tent (i.e., not all mesh)
• Vents in the rain-fly
• Wide enough for a couple Therm-a-Rests for the full length of the tent
• Under 6 pounds
• Around $300 or so (preferably a little under)

So far, this is leading me to something along the lines of the MEC Gemini .

What I'm wondering is if there's something else I should be looking for? Or is there something I'm including in my criteria which isn't necessary or is too restrictive?

I have no personal experience with that tent, but it looks pretty good. I am partial to lighter weight models, but then I typically operate in a dryer environment. You have the really critical item, strong aluminum poles, and what looks like a competently designed shell.

I might suggest checking out the REI Half Dome 2 Plus, which sells for $200 (and even less if you catch it on sale). It is just slightly lighter. I believe it has only one entrance, though. For me that would not be a deal breaker.

I would bet that at some point you will add a light weight solo tent to your inventory or try a bivy sack/tarp combination. The weight savings can be significant. Even then, the tent you are contemplating will still be useful and versatile.

I have never dealt with MEC, but if they are Canada's version of REI, that is good enough for me.

The TarpTents are very well regarded in the backpacking community. I haven't been able to justify picking one up yet as I've already got 2 tents....

TarpTent

The REI Quarter Dome is also well regarded and a nice price.

Were I in the market seriously, these would be my two contenders.

Given your expected uses, I think you're on the right track. The Gemini ES seems like a pretty good fit. I like the fact that they've added top ventilation, and the twin vestibules are great (if only to keep the porcupines from gnawing your boots and pack straps!). A footprint/groundsheet is always a good idea to reduce wear and tear on the floor.

MEC has a pretty good rep regarding the quality/durability of their house-brand tents. And if there's a problem with their gear, they really do try to make it right. (I bought a MEC 1.5-man late last year, but haven't had a chance to use it yet. Sigh.)

Let us know how things work out.

All other things being equal the more features you get the heavier the tent will be and the more it will cost. If costs don't rise quality: durability, usability, and longevity fall.

Also be aware that tents are designed for narrow people who don't bring in equipment and who don't move around much. A 'two-man' tent is usually only suitable for two children who carry little more than a teddy bear. Most hikers find that a two man tent is suitable for only one and a three-man tent is only suitable for two. And that assumes you don't have a whole lot of gear.

On expeditions it is pretty common to size tents at half their rating so everyone has a space for their sleeping bag, and an equally large space for gear and living. Being snow or rain-bound, stuck in the tent for days, makes small tents torture. Tents you are going to spend just eight hours night in, and limit use to sleeping, cooking, eating, and working outside the tent, can be smaller.

Generous, well designed vestibules and porches can make up to some extent for a smaller interior space but they add weight and expense.

Granted I'm in the warm south but I've found that a simple tarp and mosquito netting set up over a ground cloth works well. I find most tents to be confining. It bothers me to be blind to my surroundings.

Bivy bags under a tarp can work. I would sometimes rig a tarp and leave the bivy behind. If rain threatened I would slip the foot of the bag into a garbage bag. Works for moderate cold. Hot weather I would leave the bag behind. And curl up under a fleece blanket and mosquito netting.

The MSR Hubba Hubba looks quite good.

The tent is also available in green and an additional MSR Gear Shed Vestibule is available so that you can store additional gear. This can be purchased at a later date if you need to expand your requirements.

It also almost 1 lb lighter (pack weight) than the MEC Gemini, although it might be worthwhile getting the Hubba Hubba footprint as well as the ground cloth is somewhat lighter than the one specified on the MEC Gemini if used on rocky terrain.

Overall the Hubba Hubba does look to appear to be little more flexible to tailor your requirements.

I'll make one comment with respect to tents: my experience is that the "footprint" made for a given tent isn't worth it if you intend to always use the tent as a tent.

Some tents allow a "fast pack" option (footprint and rainfly only). In the case were one intends to use the footprint and fly only, the footprint would be worth it.

When using the tent as a tent, the footprint is usually heavier and more expensive than other options and doesn't really buy one much.

My experience, FWIW.

HJ

I would agree with you completely. Years ago, before manufactured FPs were on the market, one would cut a painter's tarp or plastic sheeting to provide a bit of shielding for the tent floor. Then manufacturers realized they could make money selling "footprints."

Hone made footprints are a good way to recycle mylar space blankets - light and protective, if relatively short lived.

The Hubba Hubba is on my list of tents to look at more closely as well.

My main concern with it is the all-mesh tent body, but I'm honestly not sure how valid my concerns are in this regard. My thinking based on the research I've done so far leads me to think the all-mesh body might not be the best choice for when the temperature drops (i.e., the early/late winter camps) or when (not if ) I get hit with a nasty storm (hard rain/wind).

It also doesn't have venting in the fly, but my understanding is the all-mesh body compensates for that.

I doubt that the mesh makes all that much difference in keeping the tent warm; the fly is likely to be much more important. No tent really retains heat all that well; its most important function is to shield you from the wind.

It would be interesting to see some good data bearing on this question; I don't know of any.....

There are a couple things which led me to think all-mesh might be a drawback in harsher conditions (neither of which is really hard-data unfortunately).

First, in various forums and reviews I've stumbled across, I have found some personal opinions and anecdotes which put forward the idea. The most credible concern seem to deal with winds which can drive the cold and moisture, be it rain or snow, under the fly and through the mesh. Similar concerns exist around blowing sand or fine dirt, but that's less of a worry for me I think.

The second comes from tent manufactures themselves. If I recall correctly, MSR's now defunct HP version of the Hubba Hubba as well as their new Hoop tent are marketed as better extended season tents due, in part at least, to their fabric inner walls. Another example is the MEC Gemini I linked to above which is offered as an ES (extended season) model with fabric walls in addition to their original model which is mostly mesh.

Again, I don't really know if the all-mesh bodies are that big of a drawback (and I am still considering them), but this is what has led me towards thinking they could be a liability when its not nice out.

Your research sound convincing. After all, you have to deal with Real Weather. I am down here in La la land, eating lotus blossoms.

For a winter or four season then, I prefer an all fabric inner tent. But in general,, the more mesh, the less problem with condensation.

As with everything tent design is a compromise, if you need a full 4 season tent then the main difference is the ability to stand up to high wind speeds approaching 80 mph and will come with 4 and 5 pole geodesic designs. 4 and 5 season tents are considerably heavier. If the 3 season Hubba Hubba is 400 grams lighter than the MEC Gemini ES, this means you can keep warmer by adding a down jacket to your pack during colder spells for the same pack weight. On the other hand the more internal mesh will help with condensation, ventilation and humidity issues during warmer weather, when you are most likely to be using the tent.

I'm currently trying out this tent.



Highlander Proforce single man tent attached to the back of a Lowe Alpine Contour Crossbow 50.

Its no lightweight at 2.8 Kg for a roomy single man design but is nearly bomb proof, takes about 2 min to setup (the inner just needs staked out and the fly thrown over the inner) and allows a camp to be set up very stealthily when used in conjuction with a 9ft x 9ft camo net.

Well, I do have experience with the weather, unfortunately I have little experience camping in it. My requirement for early/late winter comes from helping with my son's Scout's - something I am doing for the first time this year.

Up to now, I've pretty much been a car camper in the summer months.

So, in addition to dealing with more inclement seasons, this is also the first year I'll be doing some backpacking and, while I am likely not going to make all the right gear choices off the bat, I do want to try and start off on the right foot.

Great point about everything being a compromise.

I guess that's really what I'm trying to understand; which features are good, and which are optional so when I look at the various tents that are out there I can better judge the trade-offs between the designs.

Your responses along with the others here are really helping with this - thanks!

As you gain experience you will develop a style and a preference for gear that suits you. Some people swing toward the super ultralight end of the spectrum and trim the margins of their maps, eat food that requires no cooking, etc. Others will carry 60 pound packs for an overnighter.

The Gemini is a good middle of the road compromise. It's not superlight, but it is definitely not ridiculously heavy. You are bound to get substantial use out of it.

If I want to pare my shelter to an acceptable minimum, I go with a bivy bag weighing less than a pound and pair it with a tarp also at a fraction of a pound. Properly situated, such a combination can be surprisingly storm proof and comfortable. But I usually carry something a little heavier and a little easier to pitch.

It looks like you're making good choices here - the MEC tent seems like a good 3 season tent. I own a similar REI Half Dome, an REI QuarterDome, and a TarpTent Double Rainbow, they're all good 3 season tents. The extensive bug screening overhead on the REI models is not really an issue, you put the rainfly on, they're water tight. The Half Dome has the best space for 2 sleepers, the Quarter Dome is lighter but too small for two adults (okay for 1 adult and 1 kid though, if you don't mind squeezing in). I've also slept in the MSR Hubba Hubba on Scout camp outs and its a good tent too, ours was a 3 person model and it is very large. A bit heavier and bulkier than the REI Half Dome. I like the simplicity of the Tarptents most, they're lightweight and plenty water tight. I use my Double Rainbow as my solo tent, but I could fit a couple sleepers in easily enough.

A word of caution on extending the tarptent or any 3 season tent into shoulder winter seasons, you can get snow infiltration in a tarptent along the bottom, because there is bug screening where on other tents there might be a solid nylon panel, I've been out in October-November and snowed on and you do get some snow in your tent that way. They're not really designed for winter conditions, and though they'll work in a pinch, you shouldn't trust them to perform for you in snow situations. But I've been warm and dry in all of these tents you and other posters have mentioned.

If I had to choose a tent to be marooned in for a couple days of absolute downpouring rain - probably go for the Double Rainbow camping solo, or the Half Dome if camping with a friend. There'd be room for both of you and a deck of cards anyway.

Correct. Drifting snow will get in pretty much everywhere. A good 4-season tent will do a much better job of keeping that snow out. Rain is much less of a problem if the tent is well designed, i.e. an areodynamic shape where the wind won't just lift the fly up, leaving the inner tent exposed to the hammering rain. Or with vent openings that acts as funnels for rain and snow as soon as there is a little wind.

A very important consideration is also: How hard is it to pitch that tent in bad weather and high winds? The difference is HUGE among the tents at the markets, and this is something you really must pay attention to when reading those reviews.

For the reasons stated above, I am extremely sceptical for any construction where the load bearing construction is the inner tent, and where the fly is just something that is clipped onto the inner tent+poles. I assume there would be ways to design such constructions to be weather robust, and probably ways of pitching them in bad weather (without soaking the inner tent before the fly is in place). Untill I've actually tried it and being proved wrong my gut feeling is that this really isn't a good way to make weather robust tents. A robust load bearing "outer tent" where the inner tent is something that dangles inside it is what I prefer.

Another important consideration is ventilation. You will have condensation and rime frost in ANY tent, but much less of it if the ventilation is well designed. This requires a system of vents so you can have air flow through the tent. Even more so if you run a stove for cooking or heat. And you want a reliable and simple way of shutting those vents in bad weather. Preferably from the inside.

Do you plan for running a stove inside your tent? Then the height and volume of the vestibule is important. Many people think it is absolutely crazy to run a stove inside a tent, but the benefits - particular in bad weather - outweights the risks, IMO.

My winter camping experience - including some not really nice weather episodes - has mainly been in big tents with a wood stove. So, like you, I have very little hard earned experience on the subject. But (like you) I've assembled some knowledge through second hand experience of friends, reviews and forums.

Nearly all of my winter camping experience has been in tents of this construction, with the inner tent carrying the load, particularly the North Face VE-25, a venerable classic. Strictly speaking, it wasn't winter, but July on Denali at 14,000+ feet exposed us to -80 degree F wind chill and plenty of near hurricane force winds. I have also used, many years ago, an even more venerable classic, the REI McKinley. If the tent is designed, constructed, and used properly for winter conditions, they work fine.

I would imagine that is equally true of your preferred design, which also usually gives you the option of packing just the fly for a lighter weight alternative.

What is really critical is site selection and site "improvement". On Denali, you either occupied a recently vacated tent site with a snow block wind wall, or you built one, sometimes before you erected the tent. During a blizzard (the aforementioned -80 wind chill, which also featured winds forecast at 80MPH) you tend to your tent regularly. We carefully dressed up a tent mate every two hours and sent the Chosen One out to clear driven snow off the tent - great fun!

I used winter tents on a project on the Channel Islands, primarily because we were subject to high winds - evening events of 50 to 60 MPH, called "Sundowners." We could pitch our tents in any spot we liked when in camp. One person chose a location with a stunning view, but found out one evening that it was an excessively windy spot. The wind literally blew her tent apart. Meanwhile, I blissfully slept through the episode, in a tent pitched about 300 feet away in a very scenic, but brush protected, location.

It's location, location, location.

I second that Art, especially if you're camping with kids. Not sure what age your son is, but "Scout" usually doesn't equal "wise" until they're much older. They're not disciplined enough to be economical with space. They take up more space when getting dressed and sleeping, and their stuff very often appears to be managed by a tornado.

Can you give me an example of this style of tent? I'm not sure I can think of any that I've looked at which would meet this criteria.

Also, regarding stove usage, my initial thought is I wouldn't be cooking in the tent or vestibule. Since those wintery camps are most likely to be with the Scouts, I'd be out with them.

So very true!

That said, regarding size, I am pretty set on the 2 man. In most cases I plan on using the tent alone. At Scout camps my son is paired with another Scout, not with me, and on any backpacking trips (only one planned so far for this year) the plan is not to share tents (so far at least!).

That's not to say there will not be occasional trips where I share the tent (I have been planning 1-on-1 weekends with my kids for example), but I haven't been able to justify moving up to the 3 man because of the amount of solo use I am currently anticipating.

The Force 10 Vortex 200 would be an example.




http://www.sportswarehouse.co.uk/products/Vango-Force-Ten-Vortex-200-2-Person-Tent.html

Thanks for the link; I think that's a bit more tent than what I was thinking of right now though.

According to my requirements and what I am hearing I ideally need: a nice light 2 person, 3 season tent for solo use; a reasonably light 3 person, 3 season tent for those times I'm not alone; and, finally, a more robust 4 season tent for those more wintery outings.

I guess the challenge comes in finding a tent that, with reasonable compromises, can meet all of these needs while excelling at none.

Thanks again!

have a look at the Hilleberg tents.i bought my first one seven years ago,Atko, as a light weight canoe tripping tent and have been very impressed by it quality.if i knew about them years ago i would have spent a few extra bucks and skipped the more popular brands.
http://www.hilleberg.com/usa.htm

That's always the case. You want a tent durable enough to withstand 90% of the weather you encounter, but you don't want to be always be lugging around the extra weight of a 4 season tent that you may only need 10% of the time. A 3 season is a decent compromise, you'll be carrying a heavier tent than a lightweight solo, but then you can also extend its use into 4 seasons by careful placement and setup.


I've been happy with a 3 man Sierra Designs Meteor Light (old version). Not a true 4-season tent, but a very robust 3 season. The new version will just barely meet your <6lb requirement, but I don't know if the strength is compromised with the new pole design, and even then it's still a pretty heavy tent. The full coverage rainfly and igloo shape really sheds wind and rain. But it only has 1 large vestibule, which might not work for your requirement of not getting the inner tent wet. The good thing is there are 2 exits, so you can always enter and exit on the leeward side, and I like the window in the vestibule so you can see outside without actually exposing yourself to the weather.

I remember watching videos of SD testing their tents in a wind tunnel with 100mph winds, so I think it should hold up through most any storm. I think there are internal guy lines to strengthen it if the wind gets that bad, but I've never tried it. If the wind ever got that bad, I'd probably pack up and go somewhere else.

if it were me, I'd probably take it slow. Get a three season at first and see how it goes. Invariably, my understanding of what I need changes as I'm exposed to new types of gear and gain more experience.

I myself have been pretty happy with a Big Agnes Seedhouse SL 1 for three season solo use. I find myself unwilling to schlep around a two person tent anymore for solo use. My knees aren't holding up like they used to.

HJ

That's great advice Jim. We learn a lot along the way!

Individual groups vary, but Scouts Canada is very firm that kids and adults (and boys and girls) shall not share tents, or sleeping quarters in cabins, unless it's absolutely necessary (i.e. a 2 room cabin, with all the females in one room and all the males in another) or a "family camp" where each family is responsible for sleeping arrangements.

That is good advice Jim. After getting some use out of the first one I use I should have a better idea of what I like and what I don't.

One of our local stores is having a gear sale this weekend which is why I started asking about features to look for; they don't have their products online so I don't know exactly what they'll be selling. This thread has definitely helped clarify what to look for.

This is absolutely true. They are somewhat flexible when it comes to family (or at least our group seems to be) but my son is not out there to be camping with me anyway . I'm just along for the ride to help with his diabetes management (although my involvement is growing).

Well, you do have Hilleberg:



Hilleberg has a very good reputation. Helsport is another Scandinavian brand that probably has a wider range of qualities (from expedition style to family summer camping).

http://www.helsport.no/en/product/TENTS/




Well, if you can cook outside then the weather really can't be THAT bad..

Thanks guys! Now I'm drooling over tents. Right now I have 7, 3-season, mostly good for mild to moderate weather tents, 1 of which might fit most of Dennis' requirements but not all.

My current have it favorite is our EURKA Apex4. It's meant for 4 people. It sleeps my hubby, son and I ok, and my son and I perfectly. (Well, as perfectly as possible with a thrashing octopus sleeping beside me.) It did an awesome job in 3 days of torrential Ontario thunderstorms 2 summers ago. The fly is great, the two doors excellent, good ventilation, the 2 vestibules a little smaller than I like and it's big enough for me to change while kneeling. (Which isn't quite tall enough for the absent-minded octopus sometimes.)

Our teenager sleeps in our old Escort 2-man cycling tent (think really big bivvy, with good fly, made specially for Canadian Tire - Canadian retail icon, for the uninitiated) and loves it.

I've always wanted a tent with a tent that suspends from the fly and now I've got the itch to shop!

This is an equipped to survive forum. Consider your tent serving you in unexpected and extended bad weather. Consider the role of your tent in providing privacy and some visual security in trying times and conditions.

Borrow a tent or two and get some overnight experience, even if it is in the backyard. Try out all the in-tent activities you can reasonably expect in bad weather.

Form should follow function, not function making do with form.

All backpacking tents become too heavy and small some of the time, and too light and big only once in a great while. Almost all "tents" come in several components which allow the load to be spread to several hikers' backpacks.

If your routine in-tent activities touch the tent, you will harvest condensation and have wet gear.

1-person tents are okay for gear; 2-person tents are okay for 1 small person with little gear; 3-person tents are okay for 1 person with a reasonable amount of gear or 2 persons with little gear; 4-person tents work well for 2 people and their gear.

Extra-large vestibules at each end of a tent, with complete ground protection / footprint flooring, and more vertical tent walls, bring tents more in line with their manufacturer people-rating.

Sit upright on the living room floor and measure head height, measure full extension to the side of both arms, lie down and measure your full body length plus the width of your loaded pack. Where are you going to put your boots overnight? If you need to use your stove inside, where can that safely be done? What other activities will you pursue that result in more gear and storage needs?

Hope for good weather.

Edit: If MEC is like REI they will be happy to let you set up and try tents in-store, including supplying you with a backpack or two stuffed to full size with foam blocks, a pair of boots or two, and whatever else makes sense to you. They also would rent tents relatively cheaply so you can try various models in the real world.

My experience with several brands has been that 1-person tents work just fine for one individual, a 2-person for two people and so on. I am speaking of decent to high quality tents used for the purpose for which they were designed - typically backpacking, mountaineering, ski or bike touring or the like. In these activities you generally use the tents only for sleeping and you are out of them most or all of the daylight hours, retiring to the confines of the tent only to pursue blissful sleep.

In these tents, light weight is highly desirable, so they are designed to be minimalist. If you are car camping at the beach or lake, you want something entirely different. There are plenty of spacious, relatively heavy tents that work well for those situations.

If you are employing tents in a work situation, say scientific research or construction, you may well want something much bigger, and you may prefer to give everyone their own personal tent. I was involved in a project where we were in the field ten days at a time for a four month field season over the space of three years. Each crew member got a 3-person tent - it worked out quite well.

It is indeed an excellent idea to rent or borrow before plunking down the fairly serious cash required for a workable tent these days. Don't waste your money on the really cheap junkers - the ones with tent flys the size of handkerchiefs. They will not give good service.

Do learn to set it up properly in various circumstances. A good erection is not always easy to achieve.

When bad weather strikes, you hunker down and endure - that is all part of the fun.

There are a lot of different models available today, from large manufacturers as well as some really excellent offerings from cottage industries - lots of choices among a bunch of really fine models.

Must... Keep... Straight... Face...

HJ

I go to the relative wilderness to thrive and enjoy, though I respect the choice of others to instead to survive and endure.

REI half dome.

2 entrances >Yes
2 vestibules sufficient for a good sized (i.e., 70-80 litre) pack >Yes
Vestibules which allow opening/entry without getting the inner tent wet >Yes
At least a partial-fabric inner tent (i.e., not all mesh)>Yes
Vents in the rain-fly >Yes
Wide enough for a couple Therm-a-Rests for the full length of the tent >Yes
Under 6 pounds >Yes
Around $300 or so (preferably a little under)>Yes

I own lots of tents. I get to see lots of tents in use. For what you described my number one pick is the REI Halfdome.

Off-topic, but it sounds to me like you're ready to sign up. You'll love Woodbadge training and being more involved with the kids, and they'll appreciate the commitment.

Sage advice from Dweste, to measure before shopping and try-out before buying.

If the store can't let you borrow one to try out for a few days, they should at least be willing to let you set it up in the store and stuff gear inside to simulate your conditions so you can evaluate the space. They should also have a decent return policy. Beware "All sales final" clauses!

At most REI stores, and several others, the tents are set up on the sales floor and you can, lightly, fiddle with them and try tem on for size. REI also had a rental program for tents and other items which is a great way to "try before you buy."

The best way, of course, is to have an obliging friend with the contemplated model....

During the winter my local supermarket was selling this tent for around $7.50

http://direct.tesco.com/q/R.200-0497.aspx

It weighed in around 2.8 kg but if the fibre glass poles were replaced with some good quality alloy ones using a replacement alloy pole set for around $30 and the tent pegs replaced for 7075-T6 alloy pegs for around another $30 and the tent seems processed using a good seam sealer you would have a 2 man 2.5 kg tent with a 2-3 season rating i.e. the fly has a hydrostatic head of 1500mm, for around $70.

This tent would be pitched fly sheet first as well, which is useful for poor weather. This might be a low cost option.

Denis - If you are not experienced with camping and hiking I'd advise that you simply stop by your nearest discount store and get their two-man dome model. It will run about $40. Take it out camping and give it hell. Many of the local homeless people use these units and get most of a year out of them using them 24/7. The quality is several steps ahead of what you would get for the same $40 fifteen years ago.

I know several youth groups that have shifted entirely to $40 two-man domes from Wally for long weekends because they last several years and replacement is cheap if the kids set one on fire. Cleaned after use, patched and stitch to repair and reinforce weak points, re-coated as need they can last for years.

The key is that experience with camping and tents clarifies what is important. It gets your foot in the door. I've seen people spend scads of money of expedition-grade gear and it either stays unused or they take it out and destroy it because they have no idea what they are doing.

Starting inexpensive is like letting a person learn to drive in a beater instead of a Lamborghini. It saves wear and tear on the expensive model. When time comes you will appreciate the top-line model.

Art, I gotta say I disagree entirely. Money spent on a low grade tent is money wasted. I would rather spend it on a rental. I do agree with you that money on a super high grade tent might not be the best way, but there are plenty of very good medium quality tents that will not rip to shreds.

One tip of for a low quality, cheap tent. They have flys that don't protect the entire tent - an obvious set up for failure and a potentially serious situation.

Some years ago we had a climbing fatality on Mt Humphreys (Arizona) during a winter storm when the tent failed. I never found out precisely what tent failed, but the incident demonstrates the importance of a tent in nasty weather.

Perhaps it is worth considering alternatives to tents. Buy a reasonably lightweight tarp, say 10x12, get a bunch of cordage, and learn some of the many ways to pitch it right. Sure you will make mistakes, but there is a real incentive to learn.

The second option is to take advantage of rock shelters (more easily done in the American Southwest than most other places). I have spent many nights watching the water pour off the overhang while nice and protected. A good shelter is better than any tent.

If you are not a tent expert by way of experience with a wide range of tents and tenting conditions, then continue your research before spending big bucks.

Rent or borrow gear, take advantage of campgrounds to ask people about what they like and dislike about their tents.

Do not assume that popular tents are anything other than popular.

Find out what works for you, including whether or not you really want to go tent camping.

If you decide you like to camp, be prepared to find out no one tent is best. Like lots of gear you may aim at acquiring something for solo hikes in good weather, group adventures in not-so-good weather, and a few stops in between.

Have fun with it!

There are budget mountain tents to a high spec such as the Vango Typhoon 200.

http://www.outdoorworlddirect.co.uk/vango-typhoon-200-mountain-tent.html

These a used a lot of the youngsters carrying out Duke of Edinburgh Award expeditions. The only downside is again the weight at around 3.2 Kg. This type of tent although not a full mountaineering 4 season tents being of a semi geodesic design are still pretty tough and robust in poor weather conditions. They are moderately priced for their performance.

Actually, as of a couple weeks ago I am an official leader - but with my daughters Beavers (and next year Cubs). For now my role with the Scouts will still only be with the camps.



This is one of the reasons I like MEC, with their "Rock Solid Guarantee" they guarantee both the product and their selection advice.

Nothing caught my eye at the other store with the gear sale anyway .

Way to go Denis! 3 sections could be a bit too taxing on the calendar.

There's another built in tent option there. Ask your group or Area Service Team if they have any tents to lend. Many groups have spares for just that reason and they may have a few models to try. We don't want families bowing out because they have to purchase gear.

Some backpacking shops will allow you to rent a tent. Builds business.

Thanks! Just to clarify, I'm helping with the Beavers this year, but will be moving to the Cubs next year because my daughter will be swimming up. I won't be attempting to do both at the same time. Also, my role with the Scouts isn't official, I come along on the camps primarily to help my son.

That said, all 3 meet on the same night at the same place (but different parts of the building) so it makes knowing everyone and keeping up on what's happening a bit easier.

Regarding the Scouts' tents, I did have a chance to check it out what they used on our last trip out. I was bunking with another Dad in his Tarn 3, and the Scouts' have some Wanderer 2s and a couple Tarn 2s.

Also, me not owning am appropriate tent isn't preventing me from helping out at all; its more of a personal preference that I have my own space when the day is done.

I would tend to agree with this. It was years ago now, but I did spend the money for a good quality 6 person tent for car camping with the family, much more than I would have had to spend for a similarly sized low-end tent. But that tent has seen some very nasty weather and it has withstood every storm it faced and kept us warm and dry.

I really don't mind spending good money on a quality tent with a good reputation because I know I will sleep sounder knowing my tent can handle pretty much any weather the day or night can throw at it.

And renting is definitely an option; I know of a few places around town do this.

Back in the 70s the discount store tents were pretty useless. They might hold up for a long weekend in a backyard but the material was weak, the stitching abominable, and the waterproofing a miserable failure. In the early 70s I got an orange pup-tent model that I literally put an elbow through. What water repellent there was was gone in ten minutes so it was drier under the pine trees and when the wind came up the center-line seam parted slightly after one of the poles bent in half. Inexperienced, and naively placing a lot of faith in a distressingly shoddy nylon basket I spent a night and a day cold and wet. Youth thrives on adversity. One of the reasons I shifted to tarps over tents was that for what a broke student could afford I could get a useless tent or a sturdy tarp.

Things changed. Good materials have been commoditized so the discount tents and the brand name tents all use similar materials. Often the exact same materials. The differences are in the care in stitching, the details, seam-sealing, and the subtitles of design and feature sets. These can be significant but the way discount stores work, specifically the no-questions-asked return policy, means that discounters are under pressure to close the quality gaps. You can quite literally use a tent for a weekend, return it a week later and get your money back. Which means the tents a discounter sells has to be both cheap enough for people to not feel upset about minor issues and high enough quality to avoid catastrophic failures which might trigger a return.

It is why it is always best to open the package and look closely at all seams. Minor stitching errors are the second most common fault. If you spot one you couldn't fix with needle and thread in a minute get another. I've done quick checks on the store floor. The most common fault is something you can't easily check, leaks. It is why seam sealing a discount tent is pretty much required. It is also why you can get a reliable tent for $40.

Even this is changing as the same stitch-sealing threads and materials the name-brands use migrate into the discount market. This is a function of these materials becoming more common and the relatively small price the materials represent in the entire package. Feature sets are quick to catch up. Design theft is rampant so new design feature show up in discount tents very rapidly.

The general quality of all equipment has improved. The $160 fleece jacket I bought in the early 80s is not a lot better than the $15 fleece jacket I bought two years ago. Granted If I spent $160 now I would get a lot of design features and niceties but the jacket has always served my needs so I'm not sure the extra $145 would be money well spent.

As long as you avoid the lowest end products a simple two-man dome tent from a discounter is about as good as the mid-priced line from producers like Jansport and Eureka in the 80s. Back then scanning the seams for faults and seam-sealing everything yourself we par for the course. The idea of products coming out of the package perfect and perfectly watertight is quite new. The difference is that the brand name units were, even then, selling in the $250 and up range while the present day discount models are $40 to $60. The difference might come down to how much you are willing to pay to avoid spending time seam-sealing your tent.

One idea might be to buy a discount model, take all the proper precautions (including keeping the receipt in a dark spot so it doesn't fade), and give it a go in the back yard or easy weekend. If it doesn't impress you return it or donate it to the scouts and get a tax deduction. Scouts can use less adequate tents for easy overnight trips, changing rooms, equipment storage, latrine covers (cut out the center of the floor), or shade in hot weather (cut out the walls but keep the rain fly in case of rain).

The call to 'use the best' and avoid cheap equipment is inherently persuasive. It is a quick and easy truism. A bit too quick and easy. It pays to be as aware of what the discount suppliers are doing, and their increasing quality and value, as to fondle and drool over the high end items. IMO half of what you pay for on the high end is a name brand and gimmicks. You can still find useless stuff on the low end but it is getting harder. You have to be careful on both ends. Price does not guarantee quality.

I would certainly agree with Art about avoiding the extremes on the price/quality spectrum. On the low end you get junk (still) or at least less value for your bucks, while the high end has specialized qualities that most us who will never establish Camp VI on K2 will ever need to use. On the high end, there is a certain cachet, as seen by the tasteless advertising logos so thoughtfully provided by many purveyors. You don't need that either.

This relationship applies to a wide range of other outdoor consumer commodities, as well. You often find your best value somewhere in the mid-range, especially if bought from a reputable source. It also pays to watch for sales.

The best way to buy is to either rent (REI is great for this) or go out with someone else, using their gear. When I made my last large pack purchase, I rented, had it properly fitted in the store, took it out for a long, hard weekend, thought it over and then returned to the store and plunked down serious coin for that model with all the appropriate bells and whistles. Over twenty years later, that same pack has been used a lot and still serves just fine for a variety of trips, although lately I am not doing the expeditions that I used to.

These days it is fairly easy to get reasonably impartial evaluations of gear from a wide variety of internet sources - just be sure they are truly unbiased and impartial. And the best places will have a reasonable return policy. If you do your homework properly, you will never need to use it.

There is a big difference between a tent that is used just for car camping and one that will be backpacked. The backpacking model needs to light, strong, and durable - expect to pay an honest price for that. Weight doesn't matter for the car camper, and durability isn't as critical. I got a perfectly adequate car camping tent at Costco for a very low price, and it has served quite well for that purpose. It will never get very far down the trail, unlike my backpacking models.

Cheapo tents are just fine for weather that's just fine. Art's right that construction has gotten better. Flys and seams and floors come into play big time as the conditions worsen. An easy solultion if you get caught out in it is to make sure you use a ground sheet, and then cover the works up with a well secured tarp. Ventilation might be a problem but you'll survive. Also, if the tent has a bathtub floor, it does help a alot.

Remember, the better you take care of your tent, tne better it will take care of you.

I can see why; I was checking out the Big Agnes Fly Creek UL 1 & 2 (which seem similar to the Seedhouse line) this weekend and I was amazed at how much lighter and smaller they packed down compared to the models I was looking at.

Regarding low-cost solutions, I admit I am fairly ignorant as to what exactly is available, both from a quality and cost perspective.

That said, when I hear low-cost tent, this is what pops into mind: Escort 3 Person Dome Tent

This is a design I've never trusted, at a minimum I've always insisted on full coverage of the inner tent by the fly (comes from growing up on the Wet Coast I guess ) and I haven't really seen any low-cost tent that offered this. Granted, as mentioned, this can be overcome by setting up the tent in combination with a tarp, but that seems to be getting back to a setup which may work for car camping but I imagine it would be a royal pain if backpacking it. I could be wrong on that I guess, but that's my impression.

Maybe there are better designs out there for the $50 range, but as I said, I am not aware of them.

When exploring the low-cost route earlier (before I talking myself into my new budget ) I was considering 2 options.

The first was to go down the used route. The main avenues I found for this were MEC's Online Gear Swap and their semi-annual Gear Swap at their physical location (think outdoor gear swap meet; both MEC selling rentals, returns, etc. and individuals selling from their own tables). The University of Calgary's Outdoor Centre also sells off its rental gear at various points in the year.

Lastly, if going with a lower budget, but still new gear, I don't think I would go too wrong with the MEC Camper 2 ($149). It meets most of my criteria for about half the cost of the ones I am considering now.

Run away from this tent as fast as you can - fiberglass poles are bad juju for backpacking. The coverage of the fly is not so bad, but there are much better ones available.

I could not easily find a weight for this tent -that would be critical. Just as a rough guideline, it should weigh around 8 pounds or less to be feasible for a three person backpacking tent.

For car camping, this is a pretty good deal. I have one very similar which has given satisfactory service, but I would never put it on my back.

My thoughts exactly, but when I hear $40 tent this is what I think of.

This is the tent that currently resides in my BOB, its called a Force Ten Vitesse 200. This 2 man single skin tent rated for 3 season use which weighs in around 2 1/2 lbs. I also use a single man mosquito net as an inner for double bug protection. I needed something a little more spacious and easier on the eye than the blue Lightwave ZRO Cylq I was previously using.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_VFSiE656o

It is very spacious for a very lightweight and compact 2 1/2 lb tent and is a green colour as well.

I just looked at The North Face on line catalog and I was surprised and delighted to see that the VE25 was still available. It ain't cheap, but it is a serious four season/expedition tent. With anything like reasonable care, it will serve well for a long time. It has been around since the mid 1980's which says something.

I am not sure I would recommend it for you - it is probably more than you need, but it is a good point of reference. my experience with the VE25 has been very positive.

I'm a bit slow in posting this, but I do have an update. After much deliberation I ended up getting the MEC Gemini ES (shown here in my backyard).



The main tents I was considering along-side this model were the MSR Hoop, the MSR Hubba Hubba, and the Black Diamond Mesa. Realistically, I was choosing between tents of similar quality and capability and expect I would have been well served by any.

However, when comparing the models I ended up with the Gemini ES because of the following (I think) advantages:

• Stronger, more stable pole configuration (as compared to the MSR designs)
• Most fabric vs. mesh, but with some flexibility as the fabric on the doors can be opened and rolled up leaving only the mesh
• Usable vestibule design (more rectangular than triangular) ... my daughter also liked the little windows
• Good vent design (vents are propped open when set up)
• More durable/waterproof bathtub floor

Mostly, I went for the one I thought would be the most bomb-proof and winter & storm capable of the group; the only real usability advantage I think is the vestibule design (over the Mesa especially).

That's not to say it wasn't without some trade-offs. Both the Hubba Hubba and the Mesa felt bigger inside (only the Mesa actually was a little bigger). I think this is primarily due to the use of mesh which opens things up. The other tents were also lighter (visually) so they might be nicer if you ended up spending time in them waiting out rainy days.

The other models also all had better inner pocket/storage designs than the Gemini. Only the Hubba Hubba had a noticeable weight advantage.

In fairness, I should note that I wasn't able to actually see the Hoop in person (I wasn't able to find it in stock when I finally got down to my final evaluations).

Great choice!

You can balance this with a gear loft, provided there are attachment points within the tent. OTOH, you lose headroom with a gear loft. An important consideration when tenting with with kids, especially in wet weather.

Definitely a great choice Denis. I hear you on the large vestibule, I use them a lot, and bigger is always better I think -that one looks like a good cooking spot if the need came for it. And I like how your daughter thinks, the tent is for her as much as it is for anyone, and if she likes the windows I think that counts for something.

Congratulations on making the choice! Please let us know how things go as you spend time with this tent.

Good choice on the tent. With MEC tents, you really cannot go wrong no matter which of their tents you choose. Their tents are all very good quality and MEC stands behind their products if there are any problems. I have a Tarn 2 tent and it has withstood a few years of use...and abuse with no complaints.

Looks nice denis. DS will be in boy scouts in a couple more years so I'll have to loosen the old purse strings [pulls billfold out, blows off the dust and cobwebs as a moth flies out] and get a quality tent like that too.

When you join, check with your group. They'll hopefully have some you can borrow and test out. Some of the smaller and newer groups might not have an inventory built up but most of the larger groups do. Nothing wrong with smaller groups though. They should all be part of a bigger area group, and that group may have supplies to lend. (Part of our mission in Canada, and I assume in the US as well, is to introduce people to the outdoors and camping. We can't do that if they have to fork out gobs of cash to buy equipment that they aren't familiar with yet or only use once or twice a year.)

Just to reiterate what bacpackjac said, for Scouting you don't need to purchase gear like tents & stoves; the troop will have all that stuff for the kids and likely all the volunteers too.

What I found I really needed to pick up for my son to get going were the personal items like appropriate outdoor clothing, a decent backpack & good sleeping gear.

Unfortunately in our case, we probably will not. Our current Cubmaster will be starting up a new boyscout troop for our area once his son finishes webelos 2 next spring. My son will complete webelos 2 the following spring. We are indeed a small group and camping items are usually self-provided by each scout and his family, not by the troop (or in the current case, pack). Unfortunately, I don't look for things to change much once he starts up the boyscout troop. I really hope it doesn't turn out to be Webelos 3. It stinks, but it is what it is. And as I see it I have limited choices:

1) Quit and be done with the whole thing (not fair to DS or the other boys).
2) Start up our own pack/troop through our church (I am afraid I just wouldn't have the time - I am also currently the cub scout roundtable commissioner - or resources to do that though, nor any interest from the other parents or their sons)
3) Work with the existing structure and give DS and the other boys the best experiences possible

At least for now I am going with option 3.

I'm really sorry to hear that Mark. It sounds like you just had a great weekend. There must be some way to turn that into forward momentum. A sponsor? Bottle drive? Apple Day? Yard sale? Bake sale? There's got to be some way to raise even a little money for some basic gear or Woodbadge training.

You're obviously a dedicated Dad and Leader. Kudos to you!

My son's BS troop does NOT provide troop tents. They have a few tents that were donated - usually used by newbies that haven't yet purchased their own tents, but we've found that personally-owned tents are treated much MUCH better than troop tents.

Alps Mountaineering provides very good discounts for Scouts and Scouters (adult leaders) and decent basic gear.

The patrols' cooking gear, water jug, and dining fly are indeed kept and maintained by the troop. That includes a Coleman 2-burner propane stove, a 20 lb tank w/ hose, the standard big aluminum cook kit (pots/pans), utensils, a Harbor Freight dutch oven, a cast iron fry pan, 3 wash tubs, and some misc. They have Coleman lanterns, but I don't see them as a must have (headlamps do just fine).

They use plywood patrol boxes. They weigh a ton (for young boys) I'm tending to think Rubbermaid Roughneck tubs would work better - lighter, easy to replace if needed, waterproof, ...

It's interesting seeing the difference between the various Scout groups; I only have experience with the troop I was a part of as a kid back in B.C. and the one here in Alberta I've become involved in and both provided tents, stoves, etc.

As urban troops, maybe they felt providing all but the personal gear was the only practical way to get the kids all out camping? I don't really know though.

I do think that is part of it. Troop-owned tents also LOOK so much better - like the military - all lined up and decked out. My son's troop doesn't worry about that stuff. Finding dry, level, and safe (tree limbs) tent sites is more important. A Scout tends to put a lot of pride in their tent - not always though. I've seen some really abused.

I do wish parents would invest a little more on the Scout's tent and sleeping bag - their two most important bits of gear - at least for Scouts. If sized right and taken care of they will last well into adulthood. I'm not talking top-of-the-line, but decent tents with full rain fly and aluminum poles. Alps Mountaineering's ScoutDirect program provides 45% off retail, so their 4-person Vertex 4 is only $157 plus shipping, and their Lynx 4 is $132 plus shipping. Those are awesome tents for the money.

BTW, I recommend 4-person tents for Scouts. Yes, they are heavy for backpacking, but if really backpacking a distance three boys can split up tent, fly, poles, & stakes and each be carrying only about 3 lbs of tent gear each. When car camping 4-person tents work very well for two Scouts. Most troops only backpack on occasion.

Alps M's quality is on par with Eureka, but I tend to like their designs better.

Links:

http://www.alpsmountaineering.com
http://www.scoutdirect.com -- this is the site the describes how to get the 45% discount for Scouts (including boy, girl, adult leaders, ...)

NOTE: I am NOT associated with Alps M. at all. Just a happy customer.

There is something to be said for the Troop maintaining group equipment and the Scouts having some of their own. (We're on the hunt for new group tents right now actually. Ours have been beaten up by a decade worth of Cub Scouts and are starting to show their age.) Both develop pride of ownership, and having some of their own gear allows the Scouts to not only camp-out outside of Troop activities, but also to be better prepared for that "just in case" event. And, as Ken points out, we look good when we're all matching!

That said, our group tries to maintain enough gear for everybody so that we can introduce new youth and their families to camping without them having to rack up expenses before they've even tried it and discovered they like it. (That, we're all a bunch of gear heads.) The cost to get set-up with the basics can eliminate the option of the experience for many, not to mention the overwhelming task of trying to get outfitted when you have no idea what you're talking about.

Awesome info from everyone. Ken, we could use a better (and smaller) tent so I'll be checking into those for sure (already registered with scout direct ). I don't mean to sound like I am complaining about our current scouting situation. It is just a bit frustrating the turnover we have had the last year. Lost 2 leaders and about 20 scouts. At the end, we had all the scouts (tigers up to webelos 2) doing the same activities. Hard to come up with stuff that will keep everyone entertained and learn something too. On the other hand a small group has its advantages. We can do more for them with our limited budget. We also get increased one on one time with the kids and the parents. I can't say I am totally happy with the way things are being run, but I am not the cubmaster. It is what it is and I'll continue to make the best of the situation, for my son's sake and the other boys in our community who want to be involved with scouting. FWIW, the pack is only 4 years old, so all things considered it seems we are doing pretty well. Could be a lot worse.

Actually, maybe. Our troop didn't have a lot of community gear - it was mainly cooking stuff for the big events (jamborees and such), tarps and sun-shade type things for those events.

We usually buddy'd up on tents (personal!). One carried the tent, one the poles. The guy w/ the poles usually had a trash bag too to help balance the weight as the trip progressed. Or sometimes they got the bear-box.

Don't know what tents those are (haven't really paid attention to tents in years). We always did fine with cheap colemans from target. One year I bought a sweet North Face tent, all weather, etc etc etc, that my ex-gf ended up keeping after we broke up. Stupid move on my part, I doubt she used it again, but c'est la vie.

I am learning that my experiences with a few troops up here in Canada isn't necessarily the norm. I guess I figured that this was just how Scouts worked without realizing the differences that exists region to region or troop to troop.

Thanks.

No worries Denies. I think it's all troop-specific. My brother went to a different weblos pack, and my best friend was in a different troop, even though they were about 5 miles away, totally different vibe.

I guess I should provide some sort of update .

After having spent several nights in this tent I am very satisfied with my purchase.

So far I've used it with my kids in a couple car camping sites, a backpacking trip into Elk Lakes Provincial Park (BC) and on a somewhat brisk Scout camp this past weekend.

The car camping was no problem size-wise, even sharing with a kid; I went on separate one-on-one weekend trips with my son and daughter. We kept most the gear in the truck anyway so space really wasn't an issue.

The weekend my daughter and I were out we saw a fair bit of rain and didn't have any problem staying dry. Though I did find that how you attach the fly can effect how much clearance there is between the fly & inner tent at the ends; the first morning we had a contact point where the inner tent and fly touched and let a little moisture through, but re-jigging things seemed to address that. Everything had loosened up quite a bit when everything got wet for the first time too which was also a likely contributed factor.

Honestly, I didn't have any complaints about backpacking with it either. It turns out me and my buddy shared the tent and there was enough room for us to both sleep toe-to-head comfortably and the vestibules were sufficient for us to keep our packs under.

Here it is at Lower Elk lake:



I found it easier to pack when you ditch the bag it comes with. I had a spare OR compression sack that the tent fits nicely into; I then pack the tent separate from the poles which seems to work well.



This past Scout camp was the first time I've had the opportunity to use it solo and the extra room was nice. Basically the difference was it gave me the ability to keep all my gear inside with me and provided more elbow room. I definitely wouldn't consider it too much tent for once person.

Our first night got down to around -12 C but we had no snow, the second night was much warmer but the winds really kicked up overnight and into the morning. The nice thing about this tent in the cooler weather is I didn't notice any breezes or drafts that I've experienced with more traditional 3 season tents (i.e., those with mesh side panels that can't be covered up).

Finally, it's a minor thing but I'm not crazy about the pegs it came with. That said they've proved themselves to be quite strong and I haven't damaged one yet (this is from a guy who hasn't failed to damage a peg for my big tent on a trip yet, no matter which type I seem to use). I just don't like how they vibrate and flex when you are driving them in. I much prefer the MEC Millennium pegs I picked up which are square aluminium and feel much more solid. Oh, and one minor beef I did have was the tent only came with 12 pegs and to fully peg down & guy out requires 14.

Here you can see the difference between the pegs along with the repair material the tent came with:



All in all its turned out to be a good purchase.