Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up?

Posted by: ZenEngineer

Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/18/11 09:18 PM

Watching the show Out of the Wild - Venezuela, I've noticed that some of the 'adventurers' appear to be losing more weight than the others due to malnutrition. That got me thinking about preparing for such a situation, so I have this question:
If you knew a month ahead of time that you would be in a situation with little to no food for 3-4 weeks, should you prepare your body by changing your caloric intake?
I can see the advantage of starting out 10-20 pounds heavier than usual, thus having more energy stores to live on. But I am wondering if having your metabolism used to a lower caloric intake (~1500 calories, compared to the usual 2500-3000 a day usual for Americans) might be better? What approach would be best for the short term (during the event) and which would have fewer long term health effects?
Posted by: chaosmagnet

Re: Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/18/11 09:42 PM

Originally Posted By: ZenEngineer
If you knew a month ahead of time that you would be in a situation with little to no food for 3-4 weeks, should you prepare your body by changing your caloric intake?


I would prepare my body by leaving and going to where the food is!

Okay, now that I have that out of my system, I'd say that you're better off dieting beforehand so that your body and mind are more used to working with less calories. I'd also say that you should consult a doctor before doing any such thing.
Posted by: comms

Re: Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/18/11 10:40 PM

Getting ready for some military schools, it was inside baseball to put on few pounds knowing that it would come off during the school b/c of unbalance of food v exertion.

However, thats not to say if you're currently overweight, its a reason to eat more. Being in really good shape, 'fighting weight' is better than being 20lbs overweight.
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/18/11 11:28 PM

Fat carried on the body is the most weight and bulk efficient way of carrying calories for later use. It has been suggested, fairly seriously, that astronauts being twenty pounds over normal weight would save many pounds in food. Considering that even boosting a single pound into low-earth-orbit might cost ten thousand dollars because every pound lofted requires fuel, which also requires lifting. On longer trips saving a pound is a high priority.

Fat astronauts make a lot of sense.

Body fat represents a valuable store of calories and insulation. That said it is also weight that slows you down and wears on joints. Unlike astronauts in zero-gravity where weight is largely meaningless, and wear on joints less an issue, earthbound humans may find themselves hard against cargo limits and a disaster is a hell of a time to blow out a knee. Put in terms of recent events; you have ten minutes warning of an tsunami, you have two miles to safety. Would you, or would you rather not, be twenty pounds over your ideal weight and be running on bad knees and wobbly ankles?

There is also the matter of fitness. It has been learned in the last decades that weight can be, but is often not, unrelated to overall health and fitness. While there are indeed some people who are overweight but strong and healthy the majority of overweight people have other issues. Strength, endurance, heart health and joint issues are all common for people who are overweight.
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/19/11 03:41 AM

It's a question worthy of discussion.

I like to think that my extended bachelorhood was the best training for this: famine and low quality food plus extensive physical exercise for days; counterbalanced by a bacchanal, a mass of steaks or pork chops on the barby, washed down with quantities of beer, fresh whole-grain bread, and uncooked veggies. This is the purest hunter-gatherer diet IMO.

If I tried that now, it would probably kill me. Eventually.

But to respond to the OP: I think I would try to put on the 10+ pounds, but without radically sacrificing cardio fitness and core strength. For me, that takes some work: the only way I can add a lot of weight is through cheap, lazy calories (specifically, sweet and complex dark ales). Broadly speaking, though: regardless of the situation, nobody can steal those calories from you; that's why we have the capability.

A (mostly) healthy body will respond and adjust to conditions. I had a practical test of this last year -- 60 hours with nothing but clear fluids in preparation for a medical test. I thought it would be a lot harder than it was. Did I miss food? Yeah, but I wasn't starving by any stretch. Mostly I was grossed out by the limited diet, but I needed the fluids and salts. But I was able to keep working (with the exception of highly creative problem solving), I was able to drive, etc. etc. And after 48 hours the food craving kind of stopped; it was there, but in the background, and I could ignore it. After the tests, I walked around a bit and realized I could have kept functioning quite a while longer. Nice to know.

Long-winded answer. Sorry.
Posted by: ireckon

Re: Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/19/11 07:52 AM

I would prepare for the adventure by getting in the best shape I could (cardio and strength), eating well and getting plenty of sleep.

When I'm physically fit, I hardly ever get sick. In the unlikely event I do get sick, I can recover quickly. Even if my body is used to a high calorie intake, my body could adjust to a sudden loss of food if need be. In contrast, when I'm fat or out of shape, I get sick quickly, can't hike far, can't deal with stress easily, am more irritable, can't think as well, etc.

I think about my brother-in-law who is a 40-year-old, round, tub of lard. He's completely non-functional if he doesn't get his daily dose of multiple servings of sugary drinks and desserts. He turns into a big baby if each meal doesn't have something that's highly fatty and sugary. He's totally out of shape, and has no plans or motivation to get in shape at all. I have no doubt that he would not be able to last more than 6 hours in the adventure mentioned in the original post.
Posted by: Pete

Re: Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/19/11 04:22 PM

Art said ..."Fat astronauts make a lot of sense. "

HA! HA! HA! HA HA!!!
Do you mind if I mail that suggestion in to NASA? Maybe I'll get some sort of cost-saving bonus, since they won't have to give those guys so much freeze-dried food.

Slightly more seriously, my main takeaway from this thread right now is to remember to put some multi-vitamins into my survival kit. You can last a long time on a restricted diet, if you've got a reasonable supply of vitamins.

And by the way - back to the original idea of this thread. When I go overseas and do volunteer work in remote villages, I often meet people who have restricted diets. For example, the Maasai people in Africa will typically eat just 2 meals a day, and have a cup of sweet tea for lunch. They also walk miles and miles every day. And it turns out that their health is excellent from doing this. We tend to be over-fed in America. We don't need a lot of the calories that we eat. Too much junk food.

Pete #2

Posted by: Arney

Re: Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/19/11 05:44 PM

Zen, I wrote a long post in a sub-topic called Food and the Alaskan Experiment that you may find informative. We were discussing that short-lived reality TV show, which I thought was surprisingly interesting, for a short while, at least. (Gosh, was that discussion two years ago already???)

A quick recap: based on observing how poorly a lot of people felt on that TV show, and why that was, I postulated that going on some sort of ketogenic diet (e.g. Atkins) in the weeks before such an experience, if you knew it was coming, would probably give you a big edge once you were suddenly faced with a starvation diet.

Once you're into the starvation event, getting some protein on a consistent basis will let you function and efficiently draw on your fat stores (we carry many thousands and thousands of calories in our fat) for a long time and hopefully spare some lean tissue. Otherwise, if your diet is protein poor, your body is going to have to cannibalize even more of your lean tissue, and eventually, even organs, to access protein.

Anyway, just one theory of mine. Practicing fasting (whether for health or spiritual reasons) would probably be another way to condition your metabolism.
Posted by: gonewiththewind

Re: Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/19/11 06:20 PM

Lean muscle mass burns more calories, that is why trainers try to build up their customers who are trying to lose weight and stay in shape. If you look at endurance athletes, and other people who participate in endurance activities, they are lean and not overly muscular. Fitness will aid tremendously in a survival situation, and putting on a few extra pounds prior to an anticipated drop in caloric intake is not a bad idea, if you are physically fit already. Fitness is good, but body builders will not last long without food.
Posted by: ponder

Re: Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/19/11 07:28 PM

"If you knew a month ahead of time that you would be in a situation with little to no food for 3-4 weeks, should you prepare your body by changing your caloric intake?"

Leaving out any other considerations, WHAT WOULD A BEAR DO?
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/19/11 08:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Montanero
Lean muscle mass burns more calories, that is why trainers try to build up their customers who are trying to lose weight and stay in shape. If you look at endurance athletes, and other people who participate in endurance activities, they are lean and not overly muscular. Fitness will aid tremendously in a survival situation, and putting on a few extra pounds prior to an anticipated drop in caloric intake is not a bad idea, if you are physically fit already. Fitness is good, but body builders will not last long without food.


This came up in the early 70s in discussions of US troops in SE Asia. The Geneva Convention says that prisoners of war will be given food comparable to what they give their own troops. Even when the rules were followed US troops, used to three squares and a snack, were looking at something like eight ounces of rice and four ounces of vegetables daily. Supplemented with four ounces of chicken or fish every second or third day if it was available. The locals could thrive on this. US troops found it to be difficult to do and many died adjusting even when given what the NVA considered to be a lavish diet. Of course regular beatings, torture, and other deprivations didn't help and many spent most of their days eating less than the mandated standard. Most, even when they were fortunate enough to get what the rules said, suffered greatly, lost a lot of weight, and those that survived long term as POWs showed large losses of muscle mass.

A 6'4" 250 pound American carrying 60 pounds of muscle can't maintain his normal proportions on the same diet as a 5'4" Vietnamese pushing 140 pounds with 25 pounds of muscle.

I laugh every time I think of fat astronauts. I picture that iconic scene out of "The Right Stuff" with the astronauts walking to the launch pad as people clap and cheer ... but with very round 400 pound astronauts, resplendent in their very wide silver space suits ... and the fat ripples and dances with every momentous step. LOL.
Posted by: Pete

Re: Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/20/11 04:15 PM

Actually ... there's one other thing that we take for granted. We're all assuming that people will actually EAT the food that they are given.

The truth is that we have been spoiled in the West, and we are used to having food "our way". If it doesn't taste like what we like - we reject it. This is not a trivial issue. If i take team members to third world countries, I usually give them my standard lecture about "food discipline" and "water discipline". Basically, this boils down to the fundamental idea that you are GOING TO EAT what you are given, even if the taste is not what you are used to. Most people in third world countries don't have the privilege of having access to enjoyable food - they just eat what's available. I don't ever make team members eat anything that is unsanitary. But still, you'd be amazed at how quickly people turn up their noses at foods that are unfamiliar to them.

As a result of this ... I've learned to watch the teams. And you can usually notice that some people are not eating properly. These people are also the first ones who get sick, and generally fall apart with their physical condition. I am always amazed that people will allow this to happen to their health, as opposed to being more disciplined about eating food that "they don't like".

As a work-around to this issue, I generally keep a few backup supplies for people who are picky eaters. Simple stuff like a few granola bars, some crackers, and a jar of peanut butter. These items help some people to avoid a food catastrophe ... a shutdown in their caloric intake.

Pete #2
Posted by: ZenEngineer

Re: Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/21/11 03:02 AM

Thank you for your feedback. It's given me more to think about concerning this question.
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/21/11 03:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Pete
Actually ... there's one other thing that we take for granted. We're all assuming that people will actually EAT the food that they are given.

The truth is that we have been spoiled in the West, and we are used to having food "our way". If it doesn't taste like what we like - we reject it. This is not a trivial issue.


Valid point. I have read for years how "hot sauce" in some form is invaluable in getting rough-and-ready chow from bowl to stomach. A lot of suggested "third world" kits include spices as necessities.

Perhaps some pre-trip experimentation and training might help team members find a "new equilibrium" that's acceptable? A few pre-trip teambuilding overnights, with food and suitable libations, may just make the difference. My $0.02.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/21/11 09:29 AM

My biggest experience with exotic food was an expedition in China - lasted one month and we were in the provinces, except going in or coming out, nowhere any tourist areas. We had full time local cooks with our group and were often treated at banquets with local officials.

We soon learned not to bother ourselves unduly with the origins of the dishes presented before us. The saying is the Chinese eat anything with legs, except a table; anything in the water, except a submarine, etc. (actually makes perfect sense physiologically). I know I ate dog a couple of times - horse? - of course. All of us westerners, twelve in all, adapted since we wanted to be fit for the cave exploration that was the main agenda.

We were all in good shape. We had zero incidents of traveler's quick step, which I thought was remarkable. All our drinking water was boiled, BTW. When we got to Hong Kong coming out, however, for our first meal about half of us went to McDonalds, the other half to Jack in the Box. When I arrived home, I was asked if I would like some Chinese food. "Sure'" I said and picked up some takeout. It bore only a vague resemblance to the real thing.

Humans, like pigs, are true omnivores.....
Posted by: Pete

Re: Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/21/11 02:19 PM

dougwalkabout ... good suggestion. I need to add some Soy sauce to my family survival supplies. My teenager will eat anything that is smothered in soy sauce :-)

hikermor ... +1. Agree. I've been lucky to travel to China once myself. You are right. The Chinese will eat anything :-)

Pete #2
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Preparing for no food - get lean or bulk up? - 03/21/11 10:34 PM

There is a good reason why the standard 'lifeboat cracker' and survival biscuits intended for fallout shelters were essentially simple vitamin fortified flour/water cracker. They are bland, almost tasteless, and are highly unlikely to be offensive or interfere with digestion. Being so bland is something of a selling point because it makes it less likely that people will raid the survival foods for a snack.

It pays to keep some clearly unobjectionable and easily digestible foods on hand. Some of this has to do with cultural differences but it also can be an issue with medical conditions. I had a friend who was getting radiation and chemotherapy and the only food she could keep down were water crackers. We kept her hydrated with Gatoraide cut with water, and very weak tea.

When I was fighting my way through a case of food poisoning plain crackers got me through the worse of it. Even then I had difficulty keeping them down and had to force myself to eat. When I recovered a bit I expanded my repertoire to Graham crackers and bits of banana.