Rebuilding Society

Several years ago I mentioned I am involved in role playing. For a while I was wanting to be involved in a structured role play which deals with survival because, while nothing will replace the real thing, the nature of a structured role play game has a way of pointing out things overlooked that all the planning in the world could never do.

Last year I joined such a role play game because it is a fun way to test what I have learned in theory and I expect it to point out things which I probably have overlooked. Though it started last year, I still have time to prep my player-character based on myself because she joins the story later and because some of the other players are dragging their feet.

The story takes place in 2050, a post apocalyptic world. The end of the world as we know it has already happened. People want to rebuild but the world is still chaotic and most people may still be in survival mode.

My player-character, Jeanette, is transported from 2010 to 2050. How that happened is not important. Jeanette, who is from our time, has been thrown into a long-term survival situation and will remain in a survival situation until society is rebuilt. Jeanette, however, has several things in her favor: Though forty-years-older, some of her family and other people she knows are still around. Her house is still in the family and her room has remained untouched. Anything of hers which can survive forty years is intact.

Since the plot involves the player characters on a trek, I wanted to give Jeanette every reasonable advantage since she would not have any foreknowledge of being transported to a post apocalyptic world. Jeanette is a Wilderness EMT getting ready for wilderness expedition when she suddenly finds herself in a survival situation. Since low-tech items (pots for boiling water, clothes, knife sharpeners, etcetera) will be available to her, my focus is for Jeanette to have gear she would most likely have on her and would give her the greatest advantage:

Adventure Medical Kits Mountain Medic
Pocket Survival Pack (Other than the Pico Lite, Jeanette doesn't need anything from the Plus)
RSK Mk3
PICO Lite (Because replacement batteries will not be available, it makes sense to give her something small)
Tuf-Cloth
Bottled water, 500ml (This is a common size for a bottle of water, it is easy to hold and is easy to do the math)

Civil discussion is appreciated. Maybe some have done something like this before or even thought about doing something like this. As I said nothing will replace the real thing but this is better than all the planning in the world. It may help to point what I have overlooked before I am "tested." I am open to ideas for gear and things other than gear.

Note: I am not affiliated with Adventure Medical Kits or Sentry Solutions.

Jeanette Isabelle

Suggestions offered in order of priority.

A bushcraft class before time-tripping would probably be my topmost priority.

Outerwear and footwear are essential -- you mentioned clothes being available, but well-fitting and broken-in boots can easily be the difference between life and death. I tend towards waterproof boots. You'll want shelter, too, even if it's just a 2-person Heatsheet.

A larger knife would be a really good idea. Perhaps a Ritter Mk2.

A multitool. My favorite is the Leatherman Wave.

Another form of firemaking, such as a Bic or REI Storm Proof matches.

Is a handgun, or better yet, a rifle, out of the question? While a .22 makes a dandy survival rifle for many reasons, it would be my second-to-last choice (before harsh language) if I were to face hostile predators, 2- or 4-legged. Don't forget gun-cleaning tools and supplies if you have any sort of gun.

In the absence of replacement batteries, I'd likely pick a flashlight that would last longer. I'd probably pick a Quark 123^2 (I have, um, three of them).

Wiseman's _SAS Survival Handbook_ would be the book I would bring, if I could only bring one book.

A backpack? One with a hydration bladder?

Hmm, a brave new world indeed.

Okay, my $0.02:

Your heroine is about to suffer one hell of a systemic shock, right down through her very core. This cannot be understated: she has been transported to an alien planet. She will not enjoy the change.

Hardware is irrelevant. Social skills are priceless. Psychological resiliency is the difference between life and death. Related skills, perhaps, include a range of flexibility in what is morally palatable.

I hope she has had all her shots. Even so, she is utterly naked and helpless from an immunological view. She is a helpless infant, needing mother's milk.

Rebuilding civilization is a tricky prospect. Post-apocalyptic worlds, even though they may languish and regress by our standards, translate into new societies in a generation or three. Resistance to change from the 'known' is enormous; do not expect a welcome to her voice from the long-dead past; violent resistance is practically guaranteed. (See social skills, psychological resiliency, moral flex, above.)

We can only speculate about the range of technical and environmental/chemical surprises that will be part of the air, water, animals, plants, and people. Technical skills and savvy will have a large place, though discretion may keep her from being burned as a sorcerer.

None of this sounds terribly encouraging. Sorry. For training and conditioning, I suggest you drop your heroine somewhere in the Congo, circa 2011.

*sigh*

These are good suggestions. Some, I believe, need to be discussed and weighed with an open mind.

My player-character is a Wilderness EMT and not just a regular EMT so she would have some wilderness training though she could use additional training. Of course my player-character is based on me and as I have said, this is intended to "test" what I theoretically know. I have considered taking some wilderness classes (I live in an urban environment) but I have not done so yet.

Once again my player-character is a Wilderness EMT so she would be in appropriate clothing. One reason that Jeanette is getting additional clothing in this setting is to better blend in. The emergency blanket you mentioned is included in the medical kit I am considering.

The Mk2 may be bigger than what I may be comfortable with. The Mk3 is a better slicer and slightly less noticeable than the Mk2.

I have given a lot of thought to a multi tool but given the other tools I already have, the RSK Mk3 and the EMT sheers in the medical kit, do I need additional tools? If so, I need to find a way to determine which is the best multi tool for this situation.

Another fire making tool is something worth considering.

My friend Arik is playing a wester movie type gunslinger in the role play game, another player-character is a Tai Chi master (a form of martial art which can be lethal when practiced for many years) and there will be other player-characters who are armed whom Jeanette will be with.

Regarding the book, there is no reason for it to be on her since all of her positions would still be in her house, as mentioned in the initial post, and a book can survive sitting around for forty years.

The flashlight you suggested certainly lasts much longer. The PICO Lite is tiny, which is an advantage and, at $10, throwing it away is no big deal after its advertised fifteen-hour runtime.

A pack would depend on how far along she is in preparing for her scheduled trip which got interrupted. As for the hydration bladder, I don't believe it would be needed since the party Jeanette is with would have things like a pot for boiling water. The bottled water is to sustain her until Jeanette finds out where she is (she will be transported within in her city though it would look foreign to her) and those she knows which should not take long. After the bottle of water is empty, it can be used to hold water which has been purified.

Jeanette Isabelle

Your post is very informative. I welcome suggestions on getting her psychologically prepared or defusing the bomb after the fact. Also, what is a bare minimal time span from the time she arrives and the time she is asked to go on a trek for the sake of her city? If it helps to know, two of her friends are also called on to go on this quest.

Though she will be transported in time, she will remain in the same place. Her sisters and some other family members are still alive, the house is still in the family and her bedroom untouched, some of her friends are still around, her youth pastor is now the senior pastor of the church and there are remnants of the city she knew.

Jeanette Isabelle

Just thinking about what 40 years does to stuff-

Any batteries will not function. They don't have shelf lives of even 20 years. Equipment that had alkalines in it has a good chance of having batteries leak during that time and ruin the battery contacts.

Her contact lens solution (if any) would have gone bad if opened. Maybe even unopened too.

Meds would be way past expired. Adhesives (like, say, band-aids) would be useless. Elastics will have lost elasticity (start with saggy underwear and think outwards)

Rubber stuff like jar lid gaskets and bicycle tires and tubes will have dried and crumbled.

Light oils and solvents (gun cleaning supplies) will have evaporated.

Gasoline will be long past useless if still present.

Likewise any opened paint/thinners and possible even unopened ones.

Many canned materials will have eaten or rusted thru the cans.

Many lubricants will have evaporated or solidified. The bicycle wheel bearings will hardly turn and the chain will be a sticky mess if not a rusty mess.

Les Stroud's book on Kindle won't work :-)

Guitar strings will have corroded to finger cutters and any wooden guitars will have dried and cracked badly.

That's about 5 minutes worth of engineer-thinking. (sorry!)

Hey Jeanette, good to see you back here!



The usefulness of a multitool becomes apparent when you need to disassemble something to scavenge parts to build something else, also using your multitool. The ability to remove a screw from one thing (a bookcase for instance) to build something else, say a solar oven, makes a multitool very useful. Add the ability to use the multitool's file to shape metal and you've just advanced thousands of years past cavemen. Add two crescent wrenches and suddenly you can pull the alternator from a car and build a generator.

The ability to make 1,000s of fires is also necessary. Matches or a lighter isn't enough. Get some sort of firesteel.

Now are actually trying to rebuild civilization or just go on a quest for some object? The two require much different tool sets. The best way to rebuild society is through agriculture...followed quickly by making alcohol. Some books on farming and animal care would be most welcome. The firefox books and Diary of an Early American Boy or other books of self sufficiency come to mind.

You might also want to download and read the free Steampunks Guide to the Apocalypse. It has all sorts of good ideas on making useful stuff out of the remains of our current civilization.

-Blast

A good place to start - a movie from 1936 predicting the future of a post apocalyptic world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFUCH7ppwSI

Living in a part of the world where nothing changes very rapidly means 2050 won't be too much different from today (less cars, same street layout, more horse cr*p) just as 1970 wasn't to different. The waterfront development in my city has been scheduled to be completed (there is a sign in the town centre saying the work is due for completion by 2031) just before Everytown was rapidly constructed by 2036 in the film.

The local pub (been operating since 1870) I suspect will probably be under different management by 2050 though and the beer probably won't be as good by then.

That is the one relevant thing mentioned I have not considered.

Jeanette Isabelle

There is documentary series on the History Channel named Life After People.

The purpose of each episode is to predict what happens to infrastructure 1 hour to millions of years into the future after people have disappeared in the very near to very far future.

Although this does not directly correlate to your scenario, this TV show still gives a sometimes fascinating insight through CGI effects and some historical real world events as to what to expect when there is no modern society left.

There are also some details on Wikipedia about this TV show.

Though the role play game focuses on the quest, I want to equip my player-character for life after the quest.

When my player-character arrives in 2050, she will see that her city has reverted back to the agricultural industry. Many years ago, my city was a small farming community. Also, I have researched what can be grown in this area: Cotton, peanuts, soybeans, grains (corn, wheat and oats), yams, spinach, cabbage and pecan trees. The game master says alcohol is also made.

Jeanette Isabelle

Hmmm. A lot of what is possible/available will depend on the nature of the apocalyptic event, the local infrastructure and how the locals responded. I live in the midwest and we have a lot of coal fired/water cooled power plants around here. Assuming they survived (i.e. they weren't bombed) they could easily be fueled by local coal deposits- high sulfur content but it would burn well and the old mines are pretty close to the power plants. The machine shop at the plant (and some local machine shops) would be good not only for maintaining the turbines for a while but for "building down" to an early tech level that would be easier to maintain.

Agriculture is pretty similar if you have a good source of power (coal, hydro) you can make alcohol and convert older farm equipment to use it. Not dropping all the way back to horse drawn plows but maybe to something like Farmall H or Ford 8N (pre computer controlled engines).

General implications of this is you could probably have pretty decent standard of living in your 2050 world but it might look a bit like a distorted version of the 1930's or maybe later. Knowledge would be available or easily recreated since we have a solid tech/science starting point and know what the end result looks like.

Sounds interesting.

- Eric

I'm assuming that by "rebuilding civilization" you mean increase the technology level above its current in-game level. What aspect of technology? Medicine, power, weapons...? "All of the above" would be a pretty difficult task using stuff from a backpack.

This might help, though:
http://wtfoodge.com/lets-say-youve-gone-back-in-time/

-Blast

It would look like the 19th century with 20th and early 21st century technology still around though quite old at this point.

Jeanette Isabelle

Not really understanding this.
The 40 year leap ahead is not significant. Someone from 1971 who came to today wouldn't be a caveman.
And unless she is rich now and leaves stuff in her room or hidden somewhere (a room unchanged for 40 years? why not let her find a unicorn while you are at it). I don't see what she owns mattering that much either. Unless all the shops are empty in the future. But that is the signifcant matter. not the time leap.
Just like we'd say to 1971 hiker 'look at these great multi tools we have now'. They'll have better stuff in 2050. Though not necessarily much better. Down, wool, armalites, leather, the list of stuff that hasn't been improved on is endless.
Except for stuff degrading. This would be the same scenario if she was prepared now for apocalypse and her family weren't.
What every survivalist site is about.
qjs

Okay. Consider that the absolute minimum to be carried on one's person.



The Bigger Is Better Principle probably applies here, and a Mk2 should survive more physical abuse. The Mk3 will survive more lack-of-care (being an S30V blade); that's a significant issue to consider.



Blast covered this well. An LM Wave with bit kit is incredibly versatile, but there are other excellent choices.



They'll be with you all the time? You'll never be in peril of being overrun? In RPG terms I would never consider an unarmed character for the kind of game you're playing.



Tiny is good, but bright and longer lasting is better, in my book.



The means to carry water for long trips could be very important.

Thank you. I come from 1971 (and earlier) and I sure ain't no caveman. Now, just where did I put my club and loincloth?

I wonder about the linear premise of "rebuilding society." It doesn't seem to fit the actual events that have occurred when societies have collapsed. Consider the Maya collapse or the retrenchment of Pueblo groups in the American Southwest. The large centers were abandoned and the common folk kept on farming, focusing on workable solutions that allowed life to continue.

But then, this is fantasy, right? not actual events.

Personally, I would not want to go forward into the future without my bicycle - take lots of spare tubes, tires, and patches.

There are two things I consider when choosing gear. What does my player-character need for the trek and what does she need for her life after the trek? The medical kit, Pocket Survival Pack, RSK Mk3 and PICO Lite are for the trek. The remaining items in the medical kit, the RSK Mk3 and the Tuf-Cloth are for her life after the trek. The bottle of water is to sustain her until she figures out where she is.

By "rebuilding society" I mean society returning to some form of normality. The purpose of selecting the right gear and anything else not gear related (skills, knowledge, etcetera) is to sustain my player-character until society has returned to some form of normality. Technology is a tool in rebuilding society. We certainly do not need weapons. In a post apocalyptic world everybody, and their grandmother, has weapons. The city has a functioning power plant. What is lacking is medical technology which is why I chose the role of a Wilderness EMT for my player-character. The city has a hospital that's open but any equipment still working is at least forty-years-old.

Jeanette Isabelle

I am unclear as to how long post apocalyptic event she is being reintroduced. If, as you indicate the community has returned to an agriculturally based society, there would seem to be some degree of stability, not overly chaotic as other parts of your premise states.

As to the equipment she is carrying. I see no significant advantage to her survival if as you state low-tech items (home, pots, etc.) are still available. Most of the items she is carrying will only provide temporary relief. For example her flashlight, if she uses it for 1 hour per night and it last say 30 days, how is that really providing for the rebuilding of society, which is a much more long term goal. Her EMT-Wildernesses status would only seem to provide only a minor advantage, since the community still seems to be fairly functional.

I must confess that I find the entire scenario to be somewhat contradictory and confusing.

Pete

It will be instantaneous so that everything my player-character has on her is still good.


That's a good idea. One of my player-character's friends, played by one of my friends, is a Tai Chi master. My player-character learning from her would be too good an opportunity to pass up.

Jeanette Isabelle

<I must confess that I find the entire scenario to be somewhat contradictory and confusing >

same here i'm not understanding it:


<We certainly do not need weapons. In a post apocalyptic world everybody, and their grandmother, has weapons>
why? just because society collapses it means suddenly everyone gets a gun? where have all these weapons come from? and doesn't that mean you DO need them?

<any equipment still working is at least forty-years-old.>

why? what apocalypse only destroys equipment less than 40 years old?

qjs

Forty years can be significant when government, the economy and society have collapsed. Sure, there will be plenty of items from 2010 which will still be around but with the economy collapsing, factories shut down. No more goods are manufactured. Machines wear out and are not used because the goods for repairing them are no longer manufactured.


How is this unreasonable?

Jeanette Isabelle

Your point is certainly valid. As Doug Walkabout pointed out, I have to consider the psychological state my player-character is in. A gun at this point may be too much for her. Even is she had a hand gun prior to her unplanned trip, would she be in a good state psychologically to use it after being transported to a post apocalyptic world?

Jeanette Isabelle

Whether society can be rebuilt after a collapse is unknown but it would certainly be the hope of the people in such a situation. If society cannot be rebuilt, everybody will be in survival mode for the rest of their lives.

Jeanette Isabelle

I see, much like present day Detroit. But that doesn't necessarily mean society has collapsed. In fact it could have the reverse effect, where folks actually begin to rally together to resolve issues such as a collapsed consumerist economy based on liquid petroleum products and where government doesn't have a role in keeping people in their place (I think they it marshal law security, but a well known radio jock from Austin in FEMA region area number 6 would be able to give you more details ).

Some pockets (walled settlements) have returned to some level of civility. But how civil is the wold if people have to live with walls surrounding them on all sides?


As stated, I expect the flashlight to be used up by the time the trek is over. As for choosing the role of a Wilderness EMT, I wanted to give my player-character the greatest advantage based on or close enough to what I know. I have taken classes, read books and studied online. Furthermore, I put into practice some of what I have learned so I feel playing the role of an EMT is not too much of a stretch.

Jeanette Isabelle

Hopefully my reply to Pete will address your confusion. If not, let me know.


That was an exaggeration to point out how the last thing we need is more weapons.


By the time the story begins, the apocalypse happened a long time ago. Though the stuff hit the fan in 2012, forty years is a nice, round number. Some equipment could have been new out of the box in 2012 making them thirty-eight-years-old in 2050.

Jeanette Isabelle

This is big difference if the event took place at the time of her time transport (40 years elapsing) or 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, etc. prior to her reintroduction; as the social structure would after a passage of time, return to a more stable nature.

What you are describing in terms of a society and the civility or lack thereof, currently exists in a good part of the world today. There are many parts of the world, where walled or “gated” communities are common place and not the exception.



I am also unclear as to what is the trek and what is its purpose?




What advantages do you envision for her survival in being an EMT-W vs. a standard EMT, since you state there is a hospital, abet with aging equipment and supplies?


Pete

The game master said there will not be many people around who remember what life was like before the event.

Jeanette Isabelle

Realistically, can society be rebuilt without lawyers??
(tongue firmly in cheek)

The event took place in 2012, two years after my player-character disappeared. Thirty-eight years will give people time to go through the event and do some rebuilding.


Though the game master has not told us yet what that item is, the party is to leave the settlement, go to what's left of Dallas to get the item and bring it back to the settlement.


The advantage I see is a Wilderness EMT may be better prepared for the trek than a standard EMT since a Wilderness EMT is trained to improvise.

Jeanette Isabelle

Jeanette,

Please do not take this as a personal attack and hope you will take it in the spirit for which it made, which to encourage real world experiences. Having been in the Fire/Rescue/EMS Service for over 20 years, I am well aware of the educational benefits of running scenarios. We regularly train, preplan and conduct post-incident evaluations of both real world and tabletop exercises. We even push the envelope with some scenarios being somewhat extreme so when the real thing comes along, we have trained and preplanned to a higher level allowing for quick decisive plans and actions to be implemented.

I can well appreciate the need and desire to armchair analyze various survival scenarios, which may lead to a better understanding and potentially implemented set of actions when faced with real world events. However, I will admit to finding this form and degree of role playing to be on the fringe of being obsessive and counter productive, when there so many real world situations that could benefit from the involvement of a highly intelligent person such as yourself. You make reference to your having taking classes, read books and taken on-line classes and while I being very presumptuous, I think you might want to put into real world practice those things you have enjoyed exploring. To my humble way of thinking, we are in this world for such a very short time; I want to be as productive and contributory as possible.

I deeply apologize if I have offended you in any way, it is not my intent, but the parent in me wants to rip out your Internet connection and have you go and volunteer for a Girl Scout troop of at risk youth.

I will stay out of this discussion any further, as this is way off your topic and I do not wish to offend-
Pete

Generation net: The youngsters who prefer their virtual lives to the real world ... Germane imo

TEOTWAWKI to me likely includes loss of power grids and a mass die-off with a very few able to scratch out survival in a low to no-tech predominately agrarian society in which government will have reverted, at best, to bare-bones (law enforcement). No more government entitlement programs so the first order of business is shelter (your home which has miraculously survived intact -- including contents), water (sounds like you'll have plenty, just need to purify it) and food.

You're going to have to grow and/or hunt your own food, trade for it (goods or services) or steal it.

EMT is nice -- mostly because you can trade for your services. But I'd rather be a MacGyver -- one whose knowledge ranges far beyond just medical. Knowledge you can use and trade.

Have your character get a b.s. in mechanical engineering with a particular obsession with external and internal combustion engines. Then you could put that Texas oil to good use.

If my house were going to be intact and my tons of camping and hiking gear with it (which includes Ritter's MK3) then all I'd like to bring through the time portal is a backpack full of Luna Bars, dried fruit and antibiotics.

And aspirin. I anticipate lots of headaches.

Besides mechanical engineering, a working knowledge of cracking and how crude oil is refined may be useful. There are many disciplines that may be missing.

I first want to put your mind at ease. Your post is not offensive.

While I have the interest and some knowledge for working in the medical field, my anxiety disorder, though I am taking medication for it, would prevent me from doing anything more than ordering more medical supplies and performing first aid.

I do more relaxing volunteer jobs for my church and Meals on Wheels.

Jeanette Isabelle

If you feel that first aid is within your capabilities, please consider becoming the First Aider for a Girl Scout troop. I know many troops are unable to participate in various functions due to a lack of First Aiders. You would also serve a great role model to the girls.





I commend you for your involvement, I am sure your participation is rewarding and very much appreciated by those you serve.

Pete

Unfortunately it doesn't appear so, least we also forget about the financiers as well.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Founders_of_the_Baltimore_and_Ohio_Railroad.jpg

The first railway line section was completed in the USA around 1830 (the USA infrastructure was effectively built on the railways), around about the same time the Dundee to Newtyle (Newtyle never sprang up into a major metropolis for some reason, well neither did Dundee ) railway line was completed (with some of the original stone bridgework still standing after around 180 years on one of my favorite countryside 25 mile cycle circuits)

As I have said, I want the knowledge of my player-character to be reasonably close to what I know. I don't have the knowledge to do half the stuff MacGyver does.


Hikaru, the Tai Chi master player-character I mentioned, is a computer engineer. She designed and built a relay switch computer, a computer built using 19th century technology. She also found the plans and engineering notes for a 1904 Rolls-Royce (designed, of course, by an electrical engineer) and is building a small car with a two-cylinder, ten-horsepower engine in a machine shop.


Any carbon steel knife sitting around that long would rust. Also, if my player-character does not have her knife with her, there would be no reason for her to have her Tuf-Cloth on her and I imagine it too would be useless if it sat around for forty years.

Jeanette Isabelle

I have shown this thread to The Nobody, the game master. Here are some of the relevant responses he made.





Jeanette Isabelle

19th century is pretty pessimistic depending on what caused the apocalypse. Pockets of knowledge will exist and assuming a 2012 "disaster" there are still plenty of pockets of older tools/technology around to be exploited along with the people with the knowledge and skills to use them so I'd be surprised to see things fall that far in only 40ish years. But your scenario so those are the rules.

You might try looking over the book 1632 by David Weber for some ideas and an interesting scenario where an entire town gets transplanted from the USA of today back to 1632 in the middle of Germany (can you say right in the middle of the 100 years war!). It is science fiction but makes several good points about what it would take to survive and even thrive when the infrastructure is ripped out from under you.

- Eric

Ok, first things first, if I was picking out traits for a character for a role playing game, for the situation you have described, these would be the attributes I would pick (some have already been mentioned and I am a bit constrained by not knowing the rules and bounds of the particular game you will be playing).

Physically tough, physically fit and trained in some form of self-defense or martial arts (if we are to assume another member of the trek group will handle the fighting parts of the trek then you could leave the self-defense/martial arts part out). Keeping in mind the usual roles for an RPG (a fighter, a healer, a thief, and so on) it would seem your character is taking the role of a healer. That said perhaps your skill set and knowledge should be focused on that aspect of your character.

Mentally tough, ready to take on the mental challenges of being flung through time into a harsh new reality (culture shock on an epic scale) as well as the mental challenges the new reality will present.

A master of improvisation. Since the technology may be older or non-existent, and the supplies from the past cannot last indefinitely, the character should be ready to improvise what is needed, like a splint for a broken bone, or a replacement knife handle, or a remedy for a stomachache, or a water filter, etc.

Good at communication, to facilitate truces between warring groups (if that is a likely scenario) or between individuals. At any rate, having good communication skills can’t hurt. This also implies an understanding of human nature and human behavior, which is also very useful.

If I understand the scenario correctly, the house takes care of her need for shelter, and the needs of food and water are being provided for her already and will not need to be addressed by the character? If not, then she also needs to be knowledgeable about horticulture (or at least have books in the home about it) and raising, foraging, and preserving her own food supply. She would also need ways to procure, purify, and store quantities of water. If we can safely assume her survival community is taking care of these needs for her (or the game master is simply ignoring these details) that is fine, but wouldn’t these skills make her a better asset to the survival community anyway?

You have mentioned thus far that the knowledge base will be your own. In my opinion, for this scenario, knowledge will be a far greater asset than any gear (tho for the short term gear could prove very useful). If you don’t already know some of the things discussed, could you add some books to your library that will survive the 40-year time span? Books on herbal medicine, home remedies, edible plants, primitive living, etc could prove worth 1,000 times their weight in gold. Given your character’s healer role, books focusing on this aspect would seem most logical.

OK, now for the confusing part. Your premise says “Jeanette is a Wilderness EMT getting ready for a wilderness expedition when she suddenly finds herself in a survival situation.” Is it ONLY the gear she has on her person that is not affected by the 40-year time span? Also, is she already on her own expedition when the time transport takes place? Because if she isn’t, I find it hard to believe that some of the gear you mention (like the knife and the AMK mountain medic, which weighs in at 7 lbs 12 oz and is 16" x 10" x 8") would REALLY be on her person at that moment. Also, are you considering just what she might have on her person? Or what she might also have in a pack she has just slung on her back? If she is just gathering up the gear, and it survives because it has been laying around her house for the past 40 years, then most of the contents of the FAK will be useless, as will other items mentioned. For now I will assume that she is either already on her own expedition, is gearing up as she is about to leave, or whatever so I don’t get too bogged down but the details ARE important. For the most part tho, things like medications, maybe adhesives, and other things prone to breaking down (like rubber and elastic mentioned earlier) that remained in the home will be useless to her. Thinking in terms of surviving 40 years just lying around, one word comes to mind: Titanium.

Assuming the gear for the expedition was stored at her house, she should still have access to any of it that survived the 40-year time span. So another thing to consider is what expedition was she going on? An expedition to, say, the jungles of Brazil would entail a whole different set of gear than would, say, an expedition to the North Pole. If your game master isn’t as detail oriented you could get by without being specific, but in terms of getting the most out of the experience you should consider this little detail.

Any chance you will need to do any bartering in the game world? If so you might consider including some simple luxuries like candy and gum and other needed items for this post-apocalyptic future that would be worth trading.

That's what I have. Sorry I could not offer more specific information like book titles and such. Hope it helps.

My player-character, and everything she has on her, will not age as she is sent though the time warp. My player-character is at her home and is getting ready for a planned wilderness expedition when the conveniently-timed time warp takes place. I have a scenario in mind, I will write, which will explain why she has the mentioned gear on her person. Currently, for the scenario I have in mind, she does not have her pack on her the moment the time warp takes place.


I did not get into the detail of the planned expedition. Most likely it would be somewhere here in the contiguous United States.


The game master says the contents in the medical kit and my player-character's skills to use them will have tremendous trading power.

Jeanette Isabelle

Tools and older equipment would be around but without things such as a means of extracting some types of raw materials and a supply chain, we are back to a situation where anything new would have to come from a local machine shop. Don't get me wrong, a lot can be built with scrap mettle but we can forget about mass production and not everything can be made in a machine shop.

One player-character is almost finished building a computer with relay switches and a spinning mettle drum (drum memory). She is waiting for the punch card machine to be finished. The means of building tubes and transistors do not exist. This player-character is also building a car but when everything must be built by hand, we can't expect anything more advanced than an electric starter assuming she can get the tires for the car imported. If not imported, where is she going to get the rubber to make tiers?

Without the means of making synthetic fibers, toothbrushes would be made from horse hair. Also, there are no means of making disposable medical gloves or syringes. In short, without the infrastructure, technology level is almost back to the days of the pioneers.

Jeanette Isabelle

I'll agree on some of that i.e. no large scale production of synthetics, no mass produced transistors and very significant supply chain issues. This will result in odd pockets of technology fallback. But that isn't the end of our know how and you can accomplish a lot with cruder solutions. In fact the scenario you are examining will actually force a planned drop to a sustainable tech level that would allow a gradual build back to the world we know today. To that end, vacuum tubes would be pretty easy to build if you have the knowledge and access to some rather low tech capabilities. Crude transistors can be built with material in a high school chem lab. Machine tools and the skills to use them will be worth much more than there weight in gold.

I would expect to see electricity (including local power grids), steam power, and internal combustion engines available in lots of communities. In terms of agriculture, if the fall back goes past early tractors (think steel wheels or treads, not rubber) it will probably go all the way back to human power. It takes a long time to raise and train draft/plow animals and that know how is already pretty rare before the apocalypse. Any draft/riding animals will be very hard to come by even 40 years later. Unless you have a tannery and a black smith near by tack and other gear will be pretty crude. Similar story for wood working - not a lot of human powered wood working tools out there these days so we better hope for some grid power.

In preparing your character maybe consider some training as a naturalist / herbalist. Our current medical standard of care relies a lot on big companies and dependable transportation that will break down. Some basic knowledge of herbal medicine will go along way in a world that doesn't have easy access to tylenol etc.

Good luck and have fun,

- Eric

One valuable skill will be repairing and utilizing all the stuff we throw away now. Think landfills. These will become mines.

As for agriculture: while there won't be enough horses, there will be plenty of cattle about. Oxen have been pulling ploughs and wagons for millennia. They have also been working windlasses for grist mills. A working knowledge of animal husbandry and basic veterinary medicine would be a marketable skill.

Speaking of landfills, where do all the old computers we have go? Recycled computers and old radios would have lots of circuit boards, transistors, power supplies, fans et al . . . or were all those smoked in the "event"?

If electronics can be salvaged, that multi-tool may be a very useful thing to have . . . maybe not for you, but your computer and automobile building compadre' may find it rather useful.

It's my understanding that most compter fans are DC which means they can work as a small generator. However I suspect after 40 years of neglect their plastic peices and wire coatings would be trashed.

-Blast

But plastic lasts forever in a landfill . . TeeVee says so . . maybe if we buried the old computers . . .

Transistors may still be ok after 40 years though their leads may be oxidized and difficult to solder. Depends on how well sealed they are. Many integrated circuits (plastic bodies) will absorb moisture thru the plastic and the chip will corrode.

But power supply components like electrolytic capacitors will not. They have a chemical paste inside which dries up.

Things like switches (keyboards are an array of switches) and connectors that depend on mechanical contact may not be ok because the contact surfaces will have oxidized unless they were gold-plated.

Fans would have the lubrication issues mentioned previously.

(I still have the ham radio kit I soldered together in 1973 and the radio still works. But the electrolytics had to be replaced, the switches are a bit intermittent, and the carbon resistors had to be replaced because they'd absorbed moisture in storage and all changed value.)

Some electronics could be useable. But you still have the issue of obtaining power.

Unless the character is a total ham-radio geek nerd tinkerer, the electronics won't be of much value.

Even if a computer was new out of the box in 2012, it would be thirty-eight-years-old in 2050. Even in a best case scenario, disk drives stop functioning. Flash drives have an even shorter life span (unless technology has improved) than mechanical hard drives.


There has been a lot of talk about multi tools but think. Well-made hand tools do not break down so I do anticipate that there will be many hand tools still around. Craftsman tools have a one-hundred-year warranty. Sears would not have such a warranty on their tools if they were not built to last. I chose to include an RSK Mk3 to have on my person because it has a good design and if it were left in my room for forty years, it would not have been maintained and therefore rusted. Tools regularly used would be maintained and therefore they would be around and usable in 2050.

Which would last longer, a computer or a screwdriver?

That said, since my player-character is based on myself, Jeanette would have a computer and other electronic devices. Now if a friend had the forethought of unplugging all of her electronic devices and removing all the batteries after Jeanette disappeared, even the battery backup in the computer, it would be safe to assume they would work if some maintenance were done before turning them back on.

Jeanette Isabelle

You are right. I forgot about the plastic used for the fans.

Jeanette Isabelle

As mentioned earlier, the settlement does have a functioning power plant.


That is where my friend's player-character, Professor Hikaru Pointer, comes in. Professor Pointer is the one building the steampunk computer and a replica of a 1904 Rolls-Royce.

Jeanette Isabelle

Hard drives last longer in hours spinning. Flash drives have a limited lifespan in terms of write operations but are far more robust than hard drives when not in operation. The chances of a 40-year-old hard drive still working is too small to measure. A 40-year-old unused or gently-used flash drive might have as much as a 30% chance of working.



I'd guess than an S30V blade treated with a Tuf-Cloth and then left in a drawer would have a decent chance of surviving 40 years. I'd worry more about the handle materials breaking down.



After 40 years? Something entirely solid-state might work if you could power it. Anything with electrolytic capacitors, spinning fans or hard drives is much less likely to work. Someone with tools, skills and time on his/her hands would have a good shot at fixing fan issues. Hard drives require a clean room, at a minimum, for any meaningful mechanical maintenance.

If I was planning to step out for a 40-year errand, with nobody available to maintain my stored information for me, I'd print everything on acid-free paper. Stored in a cool dry place, 40 years would be no problem. Stored in nitrogen it could last much longer.

My 27 year old Oric computer still works OK. There are some who still like to tinker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEv6MmYKYF8

Even with todays technology solid state machines i.e solid state hard drives are available which will retain there memory for upto 100+ years just like the twin 8K EPROMs in my Oric have not gone senile with old age. Even magnetic platter drives are pretty robust its usually just the mechanical parts such as the drive and read/write head actuators that fail. An OS optical disk can easily be transferred to an SD card.

As for the idea that everything turns to dust, such as carbon steel over a period of just 40 years then how on earth there are working machines such as this singer sewing machine



Even the example I have available works perfectly OK, even the leather treadle belt is still original after 110 years occasional use. But I guess they made things to last back then.

I think some folks have fallen it the consumerist mindset that modern consumer products rapidly fail or wear out, the reality that they are most likely replaced due to fashion is nearer the mark.

I think I still have some 25 year old bicycle Vittoria and Conti tubulars in the loft somewhere, I will have go and check to see if they haven't rotted away to nothing. I suspect that they have not.

I'm not saying carbon steel would turn to dust but if a carbon steel knife sat in storage for forty years, some restoration would be needed.

I have no idea how Tuf-Cloth would hold up after forty years so my player-character has it on her person just in case.

Jeanette Isabelle

I've got a knife here that is carbon steel from the early 50's -- made from a saw blade. It was stored in a leather sheath and all it needed was a touch up to resharpen the edge. The leather washer handle needed much more work.

I would be most interested in the tire situation. Many muscle car enthusiasts put their cars on blocks during long storage periods to avoid dry rot damage to the tires (probably some other reasons to store them this way as well, such as wear and tear on the shocks, springs and other suspension components although the biggest reason I had heard was the tires).

I also agree that properly stored carbon steel items will not necessarily be subject to succumb to the ravages of rust. Even improperly stored carbon steel can last for a surprisingly long time. I recovered an old carbon steel corn knife that belonged to DW's side of the family. It had been stored in an old smoke house that had been converted into a storage building. The smoke house walls were not closed off so the blade was subjected to years of being ravaged by weather made worse by a leaky roof. Granted the blade is rusted badly, handle long gone, and I have not yet checked to see if it will hold up under hard use, but it LOOKS like it could be serviceable. Our best guess on the age/storage length is at LEAST 20 years. So if an improperly stored blade lasted that long it is certainly not out of the question a properly stored blade would be useful. Given a return to older technology, I would also venture a guess that a blacksmith of some sort would become a VERY prominent member of this community anyway, so it is not unthinkable that a new knife or replacement parts for other technology could be forged in some way. Computer parts and other more delicate electronics are probably out of the question but other larger mechanical devices shouldn't be a problem.

While it is fun and informative to speculate on what may or may not survive the 40 years and what could be made or improvised with the available tech, it appears we are moving WAY off topic. Shame on us

So to get us BOT, I have some questions. Is the game master making the rules, or at least the final call, on what may or may not survive the ravages of time? Also you mention that the other people playing the game are actually building things based on older plans and technology. Is this part of the rules of the game also? I mean, if it can't be built it can't be utilized? Or is this just part of the preparations these people are doing for the game, or during the game, or for their own amusement? Also a more general question. Is it unthinkable that if one computer broke down it wouldn't be cannibalized for parts to keep other computers in the community operational? Personally I would still prefer to have a lot of info either in manuals or from training tho. FWIW and YMMV.

While not 40 years old, we still have a TI99/4A, which is 30 years old (released in 1981), which still works fine. I would think that there would still be computers that would 40+ years old and still function.

Pete

Perhaps if the environment was excessively damp or wet, but I have many knives and tools that have been in my basement (which can get quite damp during the summer) for 30 years and toys from when I was a kid that are at least 50 years old and are in fine shape. Heck, I have 18th and 19th century tools in my basement that are in still great shape, many of which I still use (and no, I am not that old ).

Pete

This is very much on the topic. Part of the reason I was looking for a role play game like this is to learn. I expect to make some mistakes along the way and learn from them.


The game master is allowing some liberties. However, I told him I want things as realistic as possible for my player-character Jeanette. After all, what would be the point of this exercise if my player-character is granted too many liberties. Given what is being built, a relay switch computer and a replica of a 1904 Rolls-Royce, the means to build them in a lab or a machine shop do exist so yeas, they are allowed. By the time the story starts, these two machines are in the process of being built. Anything that can be done to put together a computer from old parts is being done. Computers are valuable in this setting so salvaging any electronic device or computer so that another computer may work is justified.

Jeanette Isabelle

I have a crow bar I forged in junior high metal shop during the 60's . . no rust, paint is still intact, stored in much the same conditions as JeanetteIsabelle's room . . . imo 40 years is not that long . .

Many of you have made valid points about the knife but still, I think it would be nice if my player-character had it on her. What I don't know is the Tuf-Cloth. Should my player-character have it on her or would it hold up for forty years in its resealable pouch?

Jeanette Isabelle

I haven't read through all the posts and may of missed it.

Out of curiosity, can you tell us what exactly is this role playing game called and this there a website/forum that has more info (not that I am at all interested in joining)

The name is "After Chaos." Here is the link:

http://endlessdreamsrp.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ac

Jeanette Isabelle

According to that link, your character is "half-cat".

If the pouch were completely unopened and stored in a dark, dry place I'd guess that it would be in good shape. Opened and resealed, my guess is that it would be dried out. A little bit of Tuff-Glide or mineral spirits and it should be just fine.

Every player is allowed up to two player-characters. My player-character Jeanette has not been introduced to the story yet. While my player-character Chihiro was designed to thrive in this hostile environment, Jeanette is the character I want to focus on in this thread since she is the "test-subject."

Jeanette Isabelle

The debate on the carbon steel blade surviving for 40 years is where I thought we were getting off topic. But I agree, the knife should be on her person anyway. The tuff cloth can be left out entirely. The blade should do just fine without it if taken care of properly.

I have a knife that was my grandfathers and maybe even passed down to him, so it has to be 40 years old or more. Has real bone on the handles. I have my great great grandfathers rifle, though it wasn't taken care of so its not in a condition to use it, its over 100 years old, I'd say either a gun or knife would survive provided it was cleaned and oiled before being put away.

WRT computers, tell them your characters father was an older engineer and had an HP calculator sitting around an HP48 or 28 or so, those will last 40 years, mine is 20 years old. They are basically a computer, 4 bit cpu and can be programmed in machine language exactly like early computers.

A forty year lifetime is nothing for good tools and firearms with anything like decent care. I have my father's table saw, vintage 1950. My S&W Model 28 is pushing fifty years - it is a better specimen than some more recent versions of the same revolver.

If you are going to rebuilt "society", don't go by way of agriculture as we know it today... use permaculture. It works!

Notes: This is a draft of a scenario which not only helps to prepare my player-character Jeanette but explains why she has the following gear on her person:

Adventure Medical Kits Mountain Medic
Pocket Survival Pack
RSK Mk1
PICO Lite
Bottled water, 500ml

I wanted my player-character to have EDC items on her plus the medical kit since the kit is related to her role. I have considered the other items you have suggested but either they would not be all that practical, considering where Jeanette is going, or I could not come up with a good scenario for such items to be on her. If anyone has something to add to the scenario or has an idea for a completely different scenario, let me know. I want to set up an extreme example of someone taking it easy and suddenly finding themselves in a survival situation with nothing but the items on them. The inclusion of music and the discussion on Elvis is to help prepare my player-character for a game-specific situation. I was planning on using the RSK Mk3 rather than the Mk1 but after talking with the game master and thinking it through, I realize that my player-character needs something concealable.

Forty years earlier music awards, from when Jeanette and her sisters were child stars, hung on the walls of the Miller household. The twenty-four-year-old EMT was getting ready for a wilderness expedition. Jeanette was listening to Elvis Presley's Gospel music as she was polishing her survival knife. Her medical kit was on the table beside her. She took another drink from her bottle of water which she had with her all morning. She sat the knife down to let it dry and then retrieved her PICO Lite from her cargo pants pocket to change the batteries. After changing the batteries, Jeanette twisted the bezel on and then off to test it. The light was bright. She put the ultra-compact flashlight back in her pocket.

A 1986 Ford Tempo, with a faded gold paint job, parked in front of the house. Arik, then forty-one, exited the car and rang the door bell.

Jeanette looked at her watch. It was a couple of minutes to eleven. She answered the door with the nearly empty bottle of water in her hand. "Arik. You're early."

Arik noticed the subtle sent of sunscreen that Jeanette was wearing. "I hope you don't mind an early lunch."

Jeanette let Arik in. "I'm not hungry yet."

They walked to the dining room. Jeanette folded her survival knife and put it in the pocket along with her PICO Lite. Her pocket survival kit is in another pocket. "The medical kit came in yesterday." She put her water bottle down to strap on the Wilderness EMT kit to show it off. "What do you think?" Jeanette retrieved her bottle of water.

Arik did not think anything of it. He looked at the stereo playing Gospel music.

"Last night I watched Cast Away and got in the mood for Elvis. Though Rock is what he is most known for, what he liked to sing was Gospel."

Arik searched somewhere in the back of his mind. "I recall hearing that, somewhere. With you formally in the music industry, you probably knew people who knew Elvis."

"I did. Unfortunately he died nine years before I was born." Jeanette finished the last of the bottled water and went to the kitchen. She tossed the bottle in the recycle-bin and retrieved another bottle but did not open it. She looked at her watch. It said Eleven O'clock. "I suppose we can go to lunch now." She went to the stereo to turn it off and with the unopened bottle of water still in her hand, Jeanette put on her cap. "Let's go."

"You don't need your medical kit," Arik said, "and where is your purse?"

"Oh." Jeanette was about to set down her water bottle so she could remove her medical kit when she suddenly found herself in another place and in the middle of a situation.

Jeanette Isabelle

thanks for the update. (on the Ninth Edition ETS Survival News Published) I didn't want to hijack that thread again with a response there.

Have a great Memorial Day weekend.

For those wondering, this is the post he is referring to:


Jeanette Isabelle

The game master has finally resumed the role play. We are now on the morning of Day 2 but my character Jeanette is introduced on Day 3 so I have time to readjust my gear. Which Quark 123^2 are you suggesting?

My main reason for using the PICO Lite is if I am only going to use a quality flashlight once (meaning until the batteries wear out), get a $10 flashlight.

Jeanette Isabelle

chaos is probably referring to Quark 123², S2 Edition:

How long will the game last?

I have the AA version and it's a great light. Numbers are a tad better than the 123²:

If your life depends on a specific tool, don't worry about the cost effectiveness of throwing away an extra $50 . . . In the real world, you can carry extra batteries. I use AA lithiums in that light.

I don't know how long the game will last. Originally we were going to Dallas, pick something up, and return to Charlton [a fictional city in this game]. The game master and I were talking about an additional objective which would take us to Japan.

After going over their flashlights, I decided on the Quark AA². Also, because I decided to include a survival kit inspired by the SKPP-24008 (I'm still designing it for this situation), I can include a four-pack of AA lithium batteries. I believe two sets of spare batteries is the most I can carry, within reason, in a survival kit.

Jeanette Isabelle

Jeanette -- the Quark AA² is a great light for a real-world kit also . . I highly recommend it. Two lithium AA batteries in the light and a four-pack of spares should provide light for a long period. The low output Moonlight is very useful and easy on night adjusted vision.

I EDC a 2-AA Mag Lite. I only use a little at a time but it's there when I do need it so I am changing the batteries maybe three times a year at the most. In this hypothetical situation I imagine I will use a flashlight more frequently.

Jeanette Isabelle

The Quark series significantly outperforms the MiniMag flashlights. Also, lithium cells (Energizer Lithium AAs or CR123As) last much longer in storage or infrequent use.

The issue over the flashlight is giving me more headaches than any other gear. I mentioned in the beginning why I picked a disposable flashlight. I have since then taken cost out of the equation.

The flashlight cannot be black. I need to be able to find it in a situation where seeing it may be difficult, like dropped for example. It must comfortably fit in a pocket. The city of Carlton has reverted to a pioneer society so my player-character will be wearing that type of dress once she gets settled. A holster probably would not work and because I may be carrying other items, I cannot count on having a purse. It has to be, at the least, water-resistant in case I drop it in the water. I want something simple. I don't want to go through a menu of options to turn in on. I want to be able to push a button or twist it to turn it on and do the same to turn it off. I don't want it to turn on accidentally. I need it to work so I need a quality flashlight.

Also, I want recommendations for a field knife sharpener. I want something compact, nothing fragile and if it needs to be cleaned, it would be easy to clean as in no special supplies to clean it. After all, we will be on a trek and we need to keep our weight and space at a minimal. My player-character has a knife sharpening system, like Edge Pro or Spyderco Tri-Angle Sharpmaker, at home.

Jeanette Isabelle

Knife sharpener



I don't understand. Even with a societal reversion, I don't see work clothing changing that much. Maybe a personal preference for suspenders vs belt but otherwise I would expect belt loops.

According to the game master, society has more and less reverted to the 19th Century. I applied that to what I know about the area which was inhabited by pioneers.

Jeanette Isabelle

I can see the society regressing to go from industrial to agrarian centered society but I'd have to question the GM on the clothing styles reverting. Its simply too much easier to perform physical labor in pants vs a dress. Other than that, have the basic forms of clothes changed that much?

The pioneer dresses were an idea I had based on several factors: Not everything we have today to make clothing will be around in this setting. To be more specific, women's undergarments. Dresses would be more practical outer wear for those undergarments. It will be hot in the Summer and sunscreen will not exist. Therefore we need a way to keep cool as possible while being covered up. The pioneer women were more practical in that regard than the Victorian women.

Jeanette Isabelle

I must say that I am not into women's clothing, but I venture that if you peruse any good outdoor catalog (REI, Patagonia, Duluth Trading) you will see a good many extremely practical garments that would likely serve as the beginning point for your post apocalyptic world. The mind reels at the thought of women reverting to Mother Hubbards and sun bonnets. Will we be driving Conestoga wagons and firing flintlocks? Or should we just regress all the way back to atlatls?

I know of a couple of places where we could do cave paintings....

No. The means of making weapons, more advanced than the flintlock, still exist.

Jeanette Isabelle

Are the sterotypical gender norms reverting to 19th century as well, or will you be free to wear whatever clothes are most suitable regardless of gender?

The old rules don't apply. I chose a type of clothing I believe is the most practical for women given the circumstances. There are exceptions but even then the most practical solution for a particular situation is used.

Jeanette Isabelle

I looked through your suggestions.

Let me set the stage. All clothing articles, which are not made of wool nor animal skins, are made of 100% cotton. Elastic and similar stretchable materials are no longer being made. Buttons, buckles and similar items are the only fasteners available. This puts a limitation on how women's undergarments are made. There is also another factor. Therefore, in many situations, women would have to wear dresses. Sunscreen is not available so hats and long sleeves are needed. It is hot in the summer and people need to work. Therefore, these long-sleeve dresses require airflow, comfort and maneuverability.

These dresses do not have to look like something from Little House on the Prairie. They can have a modern look and still be made using old methods.

Jeanette Isabelle

One day the tacticool crowd won't be dictating the colors for gear like this (i.e. any color you like as long as it is black or camo). One day...

But with a little help from eletrician's tape the tacticool flashlight can have any color you like
I suggest 2 rings of yellow tape around the body.

I have one (actually, several). Very good choice!

Yellow electricians tape... two yellow rings around the body and it is much easier to find.



Any AA or 2*AA that also has a belt clip (clip it to whatever you want - a belt, your dress, your purse...) and a long lanyard (so you can hang it around your neck, arm, wrist, ... whatever) will do.

I really like this one that comes with the regular/tactical quark's http://www.4sevens.com/product_info.php?cPath=297_304&products_id=1880 . The two sliding cord locks let you carry it or attatch it in 10.000 different ways (around your wrist, neck, strapped to a branch pointed where you need the light etc. etc).

A closeup photo showing the two sliding cord locks:



Note that this lanyard doesn't have a breakaway link. You have to add one if you want one.

Did I mention that quark has a belt clip, too?



Lots and lots of high quality flashlight with that specification ....



The quark tactical is a very good choice if you can spend 5 minutes on reading the manual and program it. After programming you can completely forget about it. It becomes a two-mode flashlight where your most used ligth setting is with the head screwed all the way thight, and your second most used setting with the head loosened just a bit. Once programmed, there is no more fiddling - just click on and there is light.

My favourite setting is a reasonably dim light (3 lumens) as the most used setting, and a fairly bright (70 lumens) on the second setting. 3 lumens is plenty for most close range tasks (0.7 lumens is too little unless your eyes are really well dark adapted - it MIGHT be the better choice for your scenario). If you need more light where you are - or want to light up something far away, just loosen the head a bit; tight it when done.


DISCLAIMER: No affiliation - just a happy customer. I own several quarks of various configurations (mini/regular/tactical AA and AA^2) and have given even more away as gifts. I cannot vouch for the myriad of other good flashlights that may be optimal for your needs.

Thank you, Mostly Harmless. This is the solution to the flashlight headache I am currently working with: Have a primary flashlight and a backup. The Quark 123², S2 Edition will be in my player-character's holster as she goes through the time warp. Since it comes with a clip, she can have it on her as she goes on the trek. The eGear PICO™ Lite will be in her custom survival kit. I selected the Quark 123², S2 Edition because it has the brightest moonlight setting.

Jeanette Isabelle

I am very happy with the Eze-fold two-sided (model 510 - medium and super fine grit, silver handle) diamond sharpener:

http://www.eze-lap.com/product/ezefold.htm

But then again, I use scandi grind knives. The wide bevel (flat area betwen the edge and the rest of the knife) makes it easy to hold the sharpener at the right angle. I've never tried to hand sharpening with other kind of grinds, but I can only guess it will be a lot harder.

So far the only knives I have listed are my primary knife, RSK Mk1, and backup, RSK Mk5. I may need a field sharpener that would be ideal for both. My player-character has an Edge Pro 1 sharpening system, with the case and three extra stones, but it will not be going with her on the trek.

Jeanette Isabelle

I've been waiting to see when the conversation will turn to repopulating society and how to equip for it. I mean, you can't have a society without people!

Here's a basic "fire starter" kit. Feel free to add to the list.

tea light candles (hey, another use!)
strong malt liquor (who knows whom you'd be assigned to?)
knife (for prying open oysters)
scented oil (1 part kerosene, 1 part bleach, and 2 parts sage oil)

I'd also add a compass to it for good measure, but that's just my personal preference.

MP3 player with Barry White and speakers.

Some people have survived so there are people. Therefore I am unclear on how this list will help.


I could probably add a couple of tea light candles to the custom survival kit. Still, I don't see how that would help.


Alcohol is able to be made in this setting.


My player-character has an RSK Mk1.


Why specifically scented oil?


There is one in my player-character's PSP.

Jeanette Isabelle

People have been conceived without Barry White's help for thousands of years. What's changed are advancements in medical care which have reduced the infant mortality rate.

We need good health care, not candle light and Barry White.

Jeanette Isabelle

As a long time reenactor of the pioneer era I have done extensive study of the clothing of that era and have also hand sewn almost every garmet a person could need right up to greatcoats and capes.

Keep in mind that there were no sewing machines in the average household until after 1850.

Pants are the most difficult items in the clothing inventory to make.

A women could stitch up a half dozen shifts or skirts and blouses before she could finish a single pair of pants.

The women also had tricks they used to keep their skirts out of the way and espically out of the fire. They would often pull the back hem of their skirts between their legs and tuck the hem into their belts, forming a type of kolocks.

The difficulty of making pants is one reason they put all children in dresses until they were 4-5 years old, when the boys were "breeched", or put into pants for school and social events.

Even the men did not wear their pants around the house. They wore a heavy "housecoat" or robe called a Banard, to save their regular clothes.

Thank you for your very informative post. I imagine your knowledge in this area will come in handy in this armchair survival exercise.

Jeanette Isabelle

Update: The game master has granted me an allowance. My player-character's Edge Pro sharpening system, and everything which goes with it, would not be affected by time. Otherwise she would have to have it with her as she makes the jump in time.

Also there is no restriction on the custom survival kit she would have on her. The only exception is, it would be in a black Pelican case rather than orange since orange would attract unwanted attention.

Soon I will be ordering a couple of books to help me design the custum survival kit: Build the Perfect Survival Kit by John D. McCann. Not only is this the only book I know of specific to building survival kits, I read a few pages of it on Amazon and I got an understanding of his philosophy on survival kits. For me, understanding his philosophy on survival kits is very important. The other book is EMERGENCY SURVIVAL A Pocket Guide by Christopher Van Tilburg, M.D. John McCann included this book in a couple of his premade survival kits. My thinking is, if someone like John McCann includes this book in his premade kits then he must have a very good reason for doing so.

Is there another book somone can recommend? If so, I need an explanation why.

Jeanette Isabelle

Comedic prose aside, Cody Lundin wrote an excellent book w/ photos & explanations on building a psk. It is 98.6 degrees the Art of keeping your ass alive.

Comedic prose aside, Cody Lundin wrote an excellent book w/ photos & explanations on building a psk. It is 98.6 degrees the Art of keeping your ass alive.

Brilliant book! "When All Hell Breaks Loose" is another of my favorites, but it deals with survival in broader terms, and spends comparatively little time on PSKs. It could be a helpful read though for this exercise.

I did not see anything in Doug's review of this book that makes me believe it would be beneficial. Why do you recommend this book?

Jeanette Isabelle

I have not bought the books yet. I am waiting, again, on the game master. I don't want to spend any money on this until I am reasonablely sure the game will continue. I need the books not only to finalize the gear my player-character will be using but also make decisions that will impact the rest of this armchair survival exercise.

This is an update of the gear my character will have on her as she makes the forty-year jump in time:

Mountain Medic
Quark 123², S2 Edition
Pocket Survival Pak™
RSK® Mk1

This custom kit was designed with a duel purpose in mind. My character designed it as a supplemental kit to the PSP but it also has to sustain her for a post apocalyptic world she does not know about:

Pelican® 1400 Case (No Foam) Black
Aurora Fire Starter - Silver
StrikeForce® Fire Starter - Orange
Survival Matches
Katadyn® Pocket Microfilter
Bottle Adapter with Activated Carbon
Nalgene® Standard Stainless Steel Bottle
VARGO Titanium Ti-lite Mug - 750 ml
Esbit® Pocket Stove - Small
Blaze Orange Bandana
Emergency Poncho - Clear
SOL Thermal Bivvy
SOL Survival Blanket - Two Person
Ultralight / Watertight .9
QuikClot® Sport™ Silver - 25g
SAM® Splint
RSK® Mk5
eGear PICO™ Lite - Red
trekker® Space Pen
Journal Stapled Notebook with Vinyl Cover - 4 5/8" x 7"
Emergency Survival a Pocket Guide by Christopher Van Tilburg, M.D.
IOSAT™ Potassium Iodide

If anyone has suggestions for this kit, let me know. I also picked some camping and survival gear (titanium, stainless steel, aluminum and books) that will remain in her room during the forty-years she is gone.

Jeanette Isabelle

Sorry for joining this thread so late in the discussion. Looking at the scenario and the current list, a few things occured to me. I am assuming that cost is still not an object.

-- I would suggest replacing the Pocket Survival Pak with the Plus version. The benefits are that it includes the Mk5 and the EGear Pico light, plus a few water purification tablets and a spare water bladder at a cost of very little additional space.

-- I would include a light source that doesn't require batteries, such as the Garrity 3 LED Crank Light (or equivalent). If that is not acceptable, then perhaps your character had spare set of Eneloop batteries in her kit, while the solar charger remained in her room. There is a good chance that solar panels could survive 40 years if left undisturbed. Since your new society is agrarian in nature, there has to be a sufficient amount of sunlight for solar power to work.

-- The Aurora, while robust, has a lot of superflous metal associated with it, and it requires two hands for proper operation. Perhaps you should consider substituting Ultimate Survival Technologies' Blastmatch, which is lighter, is covered (albeit in plastic), and can be operated with one hand.

-- A spare filter for the Katadyn Pocket Microfilter would be ideal. However, if that is not a consideration, then many guides that address the care and handling of portable water filters suggest carrying coffee filters or fine plastic (or rust-resistant) mesh wrapped around and secured to the intake to reduce the amount of particulate matter and thus extending the life of the filter.

-- Snare wire and a small fishing kit is not unreasonable for a PSP, and would come in handy for food acquisition during an unforeseen trek.

I hope you find these suggestions useful.

Most crank lights use a cheap battery that poops out after only a few charge cycles. If you do decide to get crank or shake light, make sure to get one that uses a capacitor rather than a battery to store the energy you generate. They last a heck of a lot longer.

Since my player-character has the Pocket Microfilter she would not need water purification tablets. Also, the water bag is only good for a few uses. Therefore it makes sense to use the original PSP and get the Mk5 and PICO Lite separate.


I looked at several fire starting tools, including the BlastMatch. The two that I really like are the Aurora and the StrikeForce. If my player-character needs a one-handed tool, the PSP has a Spark-Lite. By the way, I decided to replace the Spark-Lite with the Metal Spark-Lite since my last post.


I did the research on the Pocket Microfilter. If my player-character maintains it, even in the field, it will purify 50,000 liters of water. One of the ways is to fashion some sort of filter over the pre filter. That is one of the uses for the bandana.


Of course the PSP has a small fishing kit. About the snare, even with an animal caught I don't know anything about dressing an animal. So unless there is a player-character (besides Chihiro) who is a good hunter, we will have fish every day.

Jeanette Isabelle

After Mobile BOB mentioned Crystal™ Salt Sticks, http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=227846&gonew=1#UNREAD I wondered since all natural deodorant is available, why not all natural alternatives to products we use today. I did a search on natural toothbrushes and found the solution to a problem I had with this game. I was amazed. I did a search on feminine care products and found it, including cramp relief.

If this post-apocalyptic world goes green, society will rebuild.

Jeanette Isabelle

I have several friends who use Burt's Bee's Natural Toothpaste as underarm deodorant. They smell good even in Houston's heat/humidity so it seems to work!

-Blast

Personally, I find it a large assumption that her room would be intact. If the world comes apart as you claim, why wouldn't the house be picked through for anything even remotely useful for surviving?

Electronics will definitely survive for 40 years. I have several items that are very close to that and still work. All depends on storage conditions.

Thinking about things from the other end of the equation. A person suddenly appears out of nowhere. Looks clean, kempt, and all new stuff on them. Wouldn't this immediately scream target? Nothing to defend yourself with would make you easy picking for anyone wanting what you have.

I've done a lot of RPGing in my days. This whole premiss sounds very shakey. You are depending on an altruistic GM to ensure your characters safety upon moment of arrival.

About the only thing that you would need on you to "survive" the 40 year lapse would be medical / batteries. If everyone is friendly to your character, they can provide anything else you need. Additionally, if your room is intact, most items would still be intact. 40 yr old clothing, if in the right environment, would still be perfectly useful. Going on a "trek" in a dress would not be wise if you have perfectly good pants and such. There are many high quality garments that are great for being in the outdoors in the summer that promote good air flow.

Knowledge is the one thing that can't be taken away. So medical skills would be a big plus.

Thanks Blast! Sounds like a graet way to save a little weight in an emergency bathroom kit.

The house is still in the family. I have established this.


The custom kit is black so it is less obvious and I tried to keep it as small as possible for that reason. Also, she will be getting clothes and a new pair of glasses to fit in this new society.


Her sudden appearance has been worked out.


A dress would be needed on the trek to blend in.

Jeanette Isabelle

So, you are telling me that your family would not touch your room for 40 years if you vanished? Esp if they think there may be useful survival items in it for their own personal use? Sorry, but this is very very far-fetched...



I still believe your character would stick out. Speech patterns and trends change in that time. It takes some time to truly assimilate into a new society. How quickly would you be off on a quest? Any time to observe these new surroundings? Once again, 40 years is longer than you think, esp after some sort of terrible episode.



I still don't buy the dress on a trek. Some sort of tunic with leggings maybe.

The whole concept is interesting, but fanciful... What is your ultimate goal? Really thinking of survival skills or??? I can think of better, practical RPG guidelines for that. Perhaps in 40 years, medical technology is better due to rediscovery of herbs and such... Your character would really not fit in being displaced 40 years... It would take time to make the transition, let alone the mental trauma and anguish of loss...

You have a valid point but I have heard stories in which a room remains untouched when a person disappears.


Maybe so but when I'm walking by, what could I possible do that would paint me as a target?


What is my ultimate goal? For years I wanted some sort of role play where "anything goes" does not apply and player-characters have to solve problems without magic or science fiction. There is some science fiction in this role play but not so much that it solves problems for us. I want something where I can use gear I can get in the real world and the knowledge to use it that is at least close to what I have in the real world.

Why real world gear? The real world already has a lot of innovations. Learning all I can about them, what works together, what doesn't, why, why not and techniques are all apart of the challenge. For example, just recently I found out I can more than double the battery life of Photon Micro-Light but only cut the brightness in half. There are other things I have learned because this role play has challenged me and my player-character Jeanette has not been introduced yet. What more will I learn by the time she is introduced? When I play her, will I gain a better understanding of what works and what doesn't?

When I was designing the custom survival kit, I was happy to remove items from it when I read that I could accomplish a certain task without it.


I want to hear what you think.

Jeanette Isabelle

Jeanette,

Thank you for humoring me with my questions.

I still think the biggest survival challenge for your character will be the shock of a new enviroment and the change in people. This really shouldn't be downplayed. Think about the recent Katrina stories how civilized people quickly broke into chaos. Thievery happened very quickly.

In the "rebuilding" society, I would believe that the same would hold true. If the supply chain is still broken, I can believe a lot of mistrust would still exist 38 years after the fact. A classic battle of have / have nots would exist. What type of dangers are you envisioning on your quest? Feral cats / dogs? Rabies could certainly be raging unchecked in the wild with the abscence of vacines.

As a society, we depend on technology way too much. Not many people are comfortable in "the wilds". Blast, however, would revel in it as would most in this forum.

A good plot twist for you GM would be that maybe only one or two of your "planned" items are still in your room. The rest missing due to being needed by your family to survive. Maybe a book was missed. A knife in the back of a closet.

Are you sure your family would be welcoming at first appearence? A stranger (40 years removed) suddenly shows up. I can see some interesting plot decisions around that...

Will the trek be more urban or more woodland? As discussed here, that really makes a difference.

Medicinals and salt would actually become a commodity in this brave new world. Knowledge of plants and herbs would be valuable as well.

I'll ponder more on this later... It is a very intriuging prospect.

I have thought of things which would bring comfort but I am going to have to treat this as a survival situation.

Edit: One idea I suggested to the game master, when Jeanette is transported to the future, she thinks she is in some other English-speaking country.


As I understand it, the biggest threats are thieves and religious extremists.


I have thought about what you said. Even with the house in the family, items will be rearranged and some no longer there. Take for example Dad's drawing table. It's now being used as a desk in my bedroom. When my player-character returns home, her bedroom is still a bedroom but the computer and TV are gone. Her clothes may be preserved in a cedar chest as relics from the past but there is no reason to preserve socks and undergarments. As for planned items, do you mean personal items or gear that would be useful in this setting?


My family will not be leaping for joy. To use a phrase from another forum, my player-character just "pulled a Danielle."


The trek takes place in a ruined urban environment.


I don't see how salt would be a precious commodity but my medical kit is.


I have a book on herbs which I'm sure will get a lot of use in this role play.

Jeanette Isabelle

Your character wouldn't know to bring a "comfort" item. Not quite sure how you are going to play this as a survival situation either. Seems like she will be in a familiar setting (her house). Seems like her party will help her get equipped for the journey (clothing, water, food)...

Thieves and relgious extremists? That's it? Hmmm... I would forsee gangs. We have them now, they would probably be more in force in that future where things have gone bad. In an ruined urban setting I would also imagine feral dogs. Ever run into a pack of wild dogs? Add in the distict possibility of rabies and you are in for a fun time.

So, when the unspecific event happened, your family just stayed put? House didn't get ransacked / ruined?

I could definitely see your parents putting clothes away into a cedar chest when you disappeared... Memories...

Salt... Your body needs it... Where are you going to get it when the supply chain is gone? Useful for preserving meat as well. What we typically consume also has iodine for your thyroid. Do a quick google about it.

Useful plant book... Very good... Blast would be proud.

When I was designing the custom survival kit, I was wanting to include things like a citronella candle and a pen. I later removed them.

Edit: Another comfort idea was to have Deputy Arik and Professor Hikaru, Jeanette's friends and pillars of the community, pull some strings to get the street lamp by her house repaired. That idea was also dropped.


As long as she remains in the safety of the settlement, she's fine. She can get a job in the medical field and settle down and make-do in this new environment. Or she can go on the trek with two of her friends in which she would need to put her survival skills to use.

Edit: Before they even hear anything about a trek, family and friends will help Jeanette get back on her feet: New clothes, new glasses. When she goes on the trek, she will be pulling her weight with her contributions: Medical care, water. . . .


I can't remember how he put it but the game master did say some thieves are organized, some aren't. So I guess we can call the organized thieves "gangs."I don't recall him mentioning any problem with animals.


The house is in the settlement. There is every reason to stay. I don't know how much ransacking there will be in an inhabited suburban neighborhood when everything breaks loose but in 2050 part of the settlement is completely surrounded by walls and the neighborhood is within those walls.


I should have been more clear about supply chains. Even before factories, supply chains of some sort still existed: ships, caravans. . . .

Jeanette Isabelle

It's a Game, not real life, made up rules at the whim of the dude running the show - hence females back in mother hubbards. Who in their right mind would revert to that stuff? Think on it, waste of cloth, which should be scarce, unless some rocket scientist is growing cotton, ginning it, spinning it, weaving it.

Stuff just magically appears or disappears at the whim of the game master. It's a game and that's how games work.

Y'all are getting way too bent around the axle for a game with made up rules. Which is what I think several people were trying to say nicely.

I gather you are able to direct me to a survival exercise that does not include science fiction?

Jeanette Isabelle

So, where is the real survival exercise?

As I am reading your last responses, your family and friends will get you back on your feet before you head off on a trek. So, you will gear up before leaving.

So, not much surviving since you have time to plan what to bring with you and your friends will supply you with what you don't already have.

A typical survival situation places in you in an unspecified location with only what you have on you and you need to return to civilization, if possible.

Or you may have a survival situation caused by a natural disaster, where you need to survive until some standard of living returns.

You are stating that you will be back to a relatively normalized civilization. May not have all the comforts of where we are now, but certainly not a stressed survival scenario.

In what aspect do you believe this story line/scenario is survival?

I don't mean to be critical, but I don't see the point beyond some fun role playing in the constraints of actual scenario (ie no magic or super powers). BTW, what is the deal with being a cat? Is this part of the game? You have mutant powers of some sort?

Perhaps, in the quest, you get lost from the group. Maybe then you have your survival scenario.

You are right. This is closer to a camping trip than a true survival exercise. In the several years I have been looking, this is the closest thing I can find.

Edit: I really had to think about this one. This is truly a unique series of events. Jeanette is taken from her home with nothing but what she had on her. This here is a true survival situation. She gets back home, it's not the same as she left it but she is given new clothes. Is she still in a survival situation? She is called to go to Dallas for the benefit of her city and all she brought with her are the items she had on her when she was taken (minus a few pain killers) and the clothes she was given.


All that is being supplied to my player-character are clothes and glasses and this is to blend in. She already has everything else.


In this setting there are mutants. Also, each player is allowed two player-characters. Chihiro, a mutant, is just for fun.

Jeanette Isabelle

Now that you have clarified this comment, I can now address it. Earlier I created a scenario in which my player-character has her knife sharpening system with her. I discussed this with the game master and he felt it would be best if it were left home. For the knife sharpening system, he granted me an allowance.

As mentioned earlier, I have a book on nutritional healing. I imagine that would be used during the forty years my player-character is gone. I plan to buy three books on wilderness survival. Because my player-character's family and friends are in the relative safety of a settlement, and not in the wilderness, those three books are likely to remain. Everything else would be personal items.

Jeanette Isabelle

I want to thank everybody who has who has contributed in a constructive way. In an unrelated thread some things were said that made me realize that what knowledge I gain from this exercise is not likely to be practical knowledge.

That said, it is still a mental exercise and anything which can keep a person's problem solving skills sharp is a good thing.

Jeanette Isabelle

The apocalypse RPG restarted. It started, died and was resurrected. For five years, off and on, I researched and carefully selected the gear for my player character. In my research, I learned a lot. Now that this exercise has restarted, I'm learning something new. There are problems that no piece of equipment could ever solve. You can only use your number one tool: your brain.

In the restart, I have the privilege of working with two experienced people. One, retired, has been a lifeguard, an EMT and has worked in law enforcement. The other works in the oil fields. I don't see how he has time to participate.

The one who is retired told me that no RPG can ever teach me and yet I've already learned a lot.

Jeanette Isabelle